The difference between England and Wales

[Jonathan]

Gareth Southgate.

A highly intelligent and articulate man. Decent playing career with England. Just won a tournament with the under 21 national team. Most of us would prefer someone else, though...

[BillyStubbsTears]

Copps

No, not "ignoring" facts. Rather, not putting too much emphasis on variables that, in many cases, apply to other countries who have different outcomes.

And no, not careful choice of words. Rather, identification of a specific problem. Venerable a was far from an established international. He was a distinctly average top flight player. I was musing about why it is that none of our very best players go on to make very good managers. So Venables doesn't come into the equation.

As for Jonathan's point about Wales, well, yes. So they become the second group of UK footballers to make it to the last four of a tournament in 50 years. Whoopy do! Clearly we ARE producing intelligent, flexible players in our system...

But more seriously, I gave my two-pennorth on that one earlier in the thread. Barring the Belgium match (and I'm far from convinced on the quality of Belgium as a team rather than as a set of individuals - very England...) Wales have had perhaps the easiest run of games to a semi that any side has had in the history of these Championships. They were in a dreadful group. They huffed and puffed against NI. And yes, they played well against Belgium. But that hardly overturns the rest of the thesis. AND it doesn't take into account the "we're tiny, we're underdogs and we're taking a half century of expectation into this so f**k YOU!" mentality that drips out of the Wales players.

[BillyStubbsTears]

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjOgr2t59fNAhXGD8AKHVemBrcQFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.radiotimes.com%2Fnews%2F2016-05-28%2Fgary-lineker-were-missing-out-on-top-english-managers-because-ex-players-all-want-to-go-on-tv&usg=AFQjCNFWrmI701Ed2ZDuAL-9vmlGnPppTQ&sig2=ejfyXSq3KdkHaWRarSFp2Q

BB

Let me get this right. They don't have expert summarisers in Italy and France and Spain and Germany?

Only in England is that career opportunity available?

[idler]

At least when I saw us lose to Iceland last week while in Rhodes the commentary and summarises were German. Stefan Effenberg was one summariser. It didn't look or sound any better in German, especially as I was listening in English.

[steve@dcfd]

France show with organisation, movement pace how to demolish Iceland.
If you play slow with no organisation then like England you get beat.

[Bentley Bullet]

BB

You're making the mistake of looking at the particular instead of the general.

At random, look at the starting XI that England put out in their final matches of WC 82, 86 and 90.

In those three matches, the number of players who went into management was 8, 5 and 7 respectively.

So, no, I don't think that most players shy away from management because of fears of being ridiculed. I think they tried and failed. Pretty spectacularly.

They didn't realise their full potential because they found an easier option, TV punditry.

[Bentley Bullet]

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjOgr2t59fNAhXGD8AKHVemBrcQFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.radiotimes.com%2Fnews%2F2016-05-28%2Fgary-lineker-were-missing-out-on-top-english-managers-because-ex-players-all-want-to-go-on-tv&usg=AFQjCNFWrmI701Ed2ZDuAL-9vmlGnPppTQ&sig2=ejfyXSq3KdkHaWRarSFp2Q

BB

Let me get this right. They don't have expert summarisers in Italy and France and Spain and Germany?

Only in England is that career opportunity available?

Sorry BST, I'd like you to get it right, but you've got it wrong again.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB
Professional TV pundits?

Terry Butcher?
Stuart Pearce?
Peter Shilton?
Mick Mills?
Bryan Robson?
Paul Gascoigne?
Butch Wilkins?
Graham Rix?
Paul Mariner?


Which channels do you watch?

[Bentley Bullet]

Obviously not the ones that you do!

[BillyStubbsTears]

I hope not, for your sake.

[Bristol Red Rover]

.... I think we would usually beat Iceland 99 times out of 100.....

Think and fantasise what you like, we've beat them 1 time out of 3 

[Bentley Bullet]

Tonight Iceland expected. They got hammered!

See what I mean?

[GazLaz]

Pearce and Wilkins are on the wireless. Robson and Gazza are alcoholics (as is Wilkins).

[BillyStubbsTears]

Gaz

1) You reckon Pearce and Wilkins chose punditry over the possibility to manage their nation to World Cup glory.

2) Gascoigne and Robson. Aye. Exactly. 

[Sammy Chung was King]

You have to allow for unknowable things, just happening, every tournament there is a smallish nation, who shocks the bigger countries, this time it's wales.
Has Chris Coleman become a tactical genius all of a sudden?, he has mostly been a failure in club football, admittedly not easy jobs that he has had.
 Wales did much the same as iceland. They realised they're strengths and weaknesses, and put together a simple, effective way of playing to they're strengths.

England on the other hand looked as though they had never met at times. The manager was too busy trying to show how clever he was, continually changing formations. The man still didn't know his best team in the last game he managed.
People try to look clever, off the back of football, by creating over elaborate formations, asking players to play in positions that they can't adapt to.
I would suggest that some pressure comes from the boot manufacturers on wanting they're players in the squads. They will put the pressure on the fa, sponsors will do the same, to make sure certain players make the squad, and even start games.

Like it or not some players are seen as more 'glamorous' and marketable, by the fa and others, then the pressure is put on the manager.
Be honest, has Wayne Rooney deserved to start the games?. And why do you think he, before the tournament mentioned he saw himself as a midfielder?.
 Because he had been told ''We can't pick you up front, you've been playing midfield for you're club, make it easier for Roy to pick you''!.
He isn't nor will ever be a top class midfielder, he hasn't the passing range, intelligence or stamina to play that role.

He has been lied to for nigh on four years, the press telling the public ''He is playing well, he was man of the match''. How many games has he deserved that in the past four years?.
He is running his career down, he runs around like a veteran, he is thirty years old!. Now is the time to work much harder to be at you're peak, but he won't do that, because united tell him lies and allow him to meander about.
 Alex Ferguson was spot on, when he wanted him out of the club.
Did you see how happy they all were to be on holiday?, some might scoff, but i truly believe, they resent playing in tournaments some of them, and are thinking of holidays.

Our players are mentally weak, they can't pass a ball for long periods, they are limited in vision for a pass, concentration is very poor.
They don't want to learn tactics, they find it boring, they want to just go out and play, that's it. They are rewarded far too early for small achievements, they have no link at all with the people who watch them. Playing for england is a hassle, and i am sure not being paid for it rankles with some, as all the match fees go to charity.
Wales, it's a new experience, they had no pressure, fans happy just to qualify and a solid team with one world class player. On paper you would want very few of them over ours.
But they have a pride in representing their country, lower league mentality mixed with premier league, makes an unlikely mix for a team, but it works for them.

Really there is no point comparing, wales to our situation, because we have some major problems, it's not lack of talent, it's those things i have mentioned already. Wales have moulded a team, the Gary Speed death, brought them closer to each other, every win or draw since has been for him. It's made them a very solid team, they have had no pressure, and have built momentum through qualifying and friendlies and through this tournament. The problem is, they are very restricted on players ready to break into the team, can they maintain it?, it will be very hard to.
I am glad we are not as successful as Germany, because our countries ego couldn't take it, our fans would be unsufferable if we were regular winners. We are the equivalent of Leeds united, thinking we are ''Champion of europe'', when the last time we truly achieved anything, The Beatles were still going strong, Twiggy was strutting her stuff and footballers were paid in the hundreds rather than millions of pounds!.

The next manager needs to be Glenn Hoddle, he will make them believe they can achieve things, he will organise the team into a coherent formation. I also think the ex players are not being used enough, they should be involved in the fa, coaching, scouting, there is a lot of ability being wasted. Tell me a striker that couldn't learn something from Alan Shearer?, a winger from Chris Waddle?, Peter Beardsley?, Peter Shilton?.
I don't agree with just promoting Gareth Southgate, just because he is next in line, that restricts you. But get those ex players involved, to pass on experience. How Roy could have benefiited from players like those on his bench and around training, vast experience going to waste!.

[VivaRovers]

Wales have built momentum through qualifying and friendlies and through this tournament.

Wales rarely play friendlies, so it would be hard to build momentum through them.

The key difference between Wales and England - as I see it from the other side - is that Wales are a team. In every aspect, from behind the scenes, to coaching, to selection, to tactics, to playing style, to connection with the supporters. And the last one of those is probably the most key as it means there is a significant amount of humility in the squad. No egos. As Chris Gunter said in an interview the other week; 'we're a group of footballers having the time of their life'. Everyone of the players relishes the opportunity to join up with the national squad - even Owain Fon Williams, who's been in the squad for seven years and only played half an hour.

Of course England have better players than Wales in almost all positions, but from the outside it seems there has always been this desperation to pick the best players and the form players and try and get them into a team; rather than adopt a way of playing and find the players to fit it. Wales have done the latter - admittedly with a smaller player pool it's easier to do without pissing people off - and it has paid off. That's why James Collins, who's just had probably his best Premier League season, remains on the bench behind James Chester and Ben Davies. It's why Jonny Williams will probably come into the side in Aaron Ramsey's absence rather than Andy King.

As I mentioned before, this club/team mentality extends way beyond the players. Last year I began contributing a supporters' column to the official Wales match programme. Before I wrote anything I received a couple of emails from the FAW's Head of Press and Media who gave me a full back story on how and why Wales' players and staff had adopted the 'Together Stronger' motto and what it meant and how important it was for everyone to be on board with it. That's the level of preparation that has gone into this Wales side; even people who are doing a couple of hundred words for the programme are made to feel part of a bigger, wider picture.

This thread has been great entertainment by the way.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Just musing again on England's lack of top players-turned top managers over the past few decades.

The issue of English players not extending their horizons by going abroad has been raised. That certainly is an issue today, but it wasn't so much back in the 70s, 80s and 90s. That generation failed miserably to bring established international players into really top class management positions, whilst other countries produced many (Beckenbauer, Vogts, Cruyff, Capello, Ancelotti,  del Bosque, Rijkaard, Zoff, Zidane off the top of my head, possibly Deschampes can add to that list by the end of the week and even a minor one like Rudi Voller did more than any English player achieved as a manager).

Most (although certainly not all) of those players spread their wings and played abroad. But then, so did many leading English internationals of the period. Gascoigne, Lineker, Walker, Platt, Keegan, Hoddle, Waddle, Hateley. All (bar the last one...) the cream of their generation. And none who really came anywhere close to being a successful manager. There's something much deeper going on.

[Copps is Magic]

You could always compare England with another individual country instead of the rest of the world. Kind of leads to a lop-sided comparison otherwise.

And then, of course, account for a fuller history; the fact that successful English managers fall slightly outside your criteria, the unique position of England which has accommodated a large group of successful Scottish managers. We all know they have a successful international side.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Copps

Well, you can pull out comparisons of England with Italy, Germany, Spain, Holland and France straight away from my previous post. Not really many other countries it makes sense to compare us against, I'd have thought.

[Bristol Red Rover]

All the successful teams internationally and nationally have one thing in common, a squad spirit including throughout the backroom staff.

It doesn't guarantee success, but certainly floors the souless mediocrity, less than the sum of the parts, we have seen in England over their last two tournements, and in Donny over recent seasons.

How to change this for England? First pick a manager who has a track record of knowing how to engender that, and don't pick spoilt brat players who aren't FULLY committed to the cause.

[Sammy Chung was King]

Glenn Hoddle was creating something similar for a time, Venables also. That was a different time back then, i have no doubt they still have those abilities.
 At the minute, we have major problems, throughout the whole system, from the chairman of the fa, those under him and right down to kids football.
We need an experienced hand, to come in for a couple of years, to steady things. Both those mentioned have been out of the game for some time, but would be ideal for what we need.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Copps

By the way, who are these "successful English managers that fall slightly outside my criteria"?

[Copps is Magic]

The names that jumped out at me were Brian Clough, Bobby Robson and Terry Venables.

[idler]

I'd love to have seen Brian Clough with some of today's prima donnas.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ok.

Two of them hadn't played professional football since JFK and Lyndon Johnson were president. Why not include Alf Ramsey if you're going to stretch back into the days of the Great Pea-Soupers?

The other one won one Spainsh League 32 years ago.

Plus, you are, for some reason, ignoring the point I was making about the issue of our inability to bring TOP players of the past couple of generations into successful management. If you want to extend the scope to including ANY player who has managed in the past 30 years, there are many, many other examples of managers from other countries who have been far more successful than any that England has produced for 50 years.

Off the top of my head.
Hiddink
Van Gaal
Lippi
Sacchi
Ferguson
Mourinho
Trappatoni
Wenger
Benitez
Jacquet




If this is the best you can do as a counter-argument, it's not convincing me.

If you reckon we don't have a systemic problem with producing excellent players (or even moderate ones) who can go on to make excellent managers, then that's fine. But you'd need to Marshall a few more facts to make your argument really convincing.

[Jonathan]

There's no denying that there is an alarming absence of English managers at the top of the game. What I'm less sure of is the reason for that. I don't think it's necessarily because we produce players that are thick, even though admittedly some of them are. Culturally I think there's been a bit of a craze with foreign coaches and managers that isn't always reflective of their ability.

It would be very difficult for many English managers to win the top honours domestically in recent times as none of them have been given the top jobs with the biggest clubs (arguably Liverpool's appointment of Hodgson aside, and ironically he's largely the reason behind this discussion).

I'm not sure there's a list of spectacular failures amongst English managers at the top level, more a lack of opportunity and / or alternative career choices. What they could have done is unknown. Where there has been failure, it's tended to be in a different league entirely and the question can always be flipped - what would Guardiola or Mourinho have done with a modestly resourced team?

Further down the chain there are many that have proved able to get more out of teams than the sum of the parts, but there's no obvious route of progression. Can you imagine if Manchester United or City appointed Chris Hughton?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Jonathan

Do you really think that had, say, Stuart Pearce or Mark Wright or David Platt demonstrated an excellence in management, that the top clubs would have said, "Nah. Let's have Roberto Mancini or Gerrard Houllier instead?

And look at the strange case of Alan Pardew. A career of brief highlights between long spells of dross, failure and sackings. But he's still been given chances at the top level.

It doesn't stack up. Plenty of decent English players have chanced their arm at management over the past few decades. Not one since Venables has really broken through to the top table.

Put that fact together with the evident and painful lack of nous and responsibility demonstrated by England teams on a biennial basis, and I'll go for Occam's Razor.

[Sammy Chung was King]

Ok.

Two of them hadn't played professional football since JFK and Lyndon Johnson were president. Why not include Alf Ramsey if you're going to stretch back into the days of the Great Pea-Soupers?

The other one won one Spainsh League 32 years ago.

Plus, you are, for some reason, ignoring the point I was making about the issue of our inability to bring TOP players of the past couple of generations into successful management. If you want to extend the scope to including ANY player who has managed in the past 30 years, there are many, many other examples of managers from other countries who have been far more successful than any that England has produced for 50 years.

Off the top of my head.
Hiddink
Van Gaal
Lippi
Sacchi
Ferguson
Mourinho
Trappatoni
Wenger
Benitez
Jacquet




If this is the best you can do as a counter-argument, it's not convincing me.

If you reckon we don't have a systemic problem with producing excellent players (or even moderate ones) who can go on to make excellent managers, then that's fine. But you'd need to Marshall a few more facts to make your argument really convincing.

Lack of intelligence in thinking about the game, is a big problem in our players now, and in the past. Players are a selfish bunch on the whole, it's all about, what's good for them.
 The transfer to be manager, is a hard unforgiving step, it's football from a completely different angle. The manager's job is to think of the whole, rather than individuals, or it's meant to be, the good one's, manage to complete the change, the not so good don't!.

[rover-n-out]

I see England have dropped out of the top ten in the FIFA World Rankings. Makes me wonder who the hell we are going to get to manage this lot and stop us tumbling into an abyss of international mediocrity.

[bobjimwilly]

I see England have dropped out of the top ten in the FIFA World Rankings. Makes me wonder who the hell we are going to get to manage this lot and stop us tumbling into an abyss of international mediocrity.

Obviously Paul Dickov, assisted by Dean Saunders.