Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: DonnyOsmond on June 09, 2019, 08:05:05 am
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Right, which idiot do people want?
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Shouldn't there be a None of the above option.
That might romp home.
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Which one would lead the useless bunch to the greatest electoral catastrophe? On that basis, I'd go for Esther McVey.
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Anne Widecombe would be better than any we have had for a few years.
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Tony Blair
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Shouldn't there be a None of the above option.
That might romp home.
I agree but we're gonna end up with one of those so might as well see who people prefer out of those options even though we'll end up with one of Boris or Gove.
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Shouldn't there be a None of the above option.
That might romp home.
I agree but we're gonna end up with one of those so might as well see who people prefer out of those options even though we'll end up with one of Boris or Gove.
Gove may have done his dash there are plenty of hypocrites in the conservative party
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Shouldn't there be a None of the above option.
That might romp home.
I agree but we're gonna end up with one of those so might as well see who people prefer out of those options even though we'll end up with one of Boris or Gove.
Gove may have done his dash there are plenty of hypocrites in the conservative party
I think that should read “in politics”.
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Which one would lead the useless bunch to the greatest electoral catastrophe? On that basis, I'd go for Esther McVey.
Agree with this. She's a shambles.
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Shouldn't there be a None of the above option.
That might romp home.
I agree but we're gonna end up with one of those so might as well see who people prefer out of those options even though we'll end up with one of Boris or Gove.
Gove may have done his dash there are plenty of hypocrites in the conservative party
I think that should read “in politics”.
Agreed
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I’ve not followed the Tory leadership race at all, so please forgive the ignorance of this question if it’s already been answered elsewhere. But why have none of the ERG decided to stand? I’m thinking Francois, Baker and Mogg in particular. They’ve all been very keen to take the limelight, make a lot of noise and throw stones throughout the Brexit fiasco. So why are none of them stepping up in the name of whatever it is they claim to stand in the national interest for?
Mogg, in particular, seemed to be touted for the role in the right wing press not so long back. What is it that’s held them back? Or is it simply that they’d favour Johnson as their puppet / fall guy and the buffoonish face of acceptability if and when the grim realities set in?
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Rory Stewart Ex Para has done a great job with prison violence.
By the way my favourite for the next credible leader is also an ex Para.
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Which one would lead the useless bunch to the greatest electoral catastrophe? On that basis, I'd go for Esther McVey.
Agree with this. She's a shambles.
I plumped for her more for her being Minister for the disabled whilst at the same time as her showing her utter contempt for the disabled and disadvantaged.
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Seems as though there wasn’t the ‘any of the above’ option I’ve gone for Esther, based purely on the fact that you can turn the sound off and still look at screen
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Seems as though there wasn’t the ‘any of the above’ option I’ve gone for Esther, based purely on the fact that you can turn the sound off and still look at screen
Totally agree Dude, I'd give her one as well.
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Seems as though there wasn’t the ‘any of the above’ option I’ve gone for Esther, based purely on the fact that you can turn the sound off and still look at screen
and she'd scrap HS2
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I dont at this point know enough about them, some I flat out dont like.
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Seems as though there wasn’t the ‘any of the above’ option I’ve gone for Esther, based purely on the fact that you can turn the sound off and still look at screen
She's no Heidi Allen.
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I agree but like Penny Mordaunt she wasn’t on the list
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Boris who we all know has been sacked for lying is now being staged managed into No10. Why would we want this self serving egomaniac in charge?
Where is he? where's boris.
''Not the Boris we're used to': Johnson's ruthlessly organised bid for PM''
''Tory MPs ‘gobsmacked’ by lengths to which frontrunner’s team is going in attempt to win support''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/09/boris-johnson-kept-from-media-in-ruthlessly-organised-campaign
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Gee I spoke too soon, here he is looking after us after all. Raising the tax threshold for those earning above 50K to 80K with the money put aside for a no-deal brexit.
Qs/ Why is boofhead looking to use a one off-expense to give the upper wage earners a permanent tax break? what happens when this money runs out, more cuts to education and health?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_Kingdom
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Gee I spoke too soon, here he is looking after us after all. Raising the tax threshold for those earning above 50K to 80K with the money put aside for a no-deal brexit.
Qs/ Why is boofhead looking to use a one off-expense to give the upper wage earners a permanent tax break? what happens when this money runs out, more cuts to education and health?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_Kingdom
MPs earn 79,468. So 80,000 is an interesting movement of the goalpost. Make me PM and you can have a tax cut.
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It's a difficult choice.
Do I wan't someone partly sensible who would be good for the country. Or do I wan't a luaitic who would be bad for the country - but good for the Labour party. I'll have a think about it.
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Gee I spoke too soon, here he is looking after us after all. Raising the tax threshold for those earning above 50K to 80K with the money put aside for a no-deal brexit.
Qs/ Why is boofhead looking to use a one off-expense to give the upper wage earners a permanent tax break? what happens when this money runs out, more cuts to education and health?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_Kingdom
Well this is very Tory isn't it?
a) Prioritise a tax giveaway of up to £6k per year for the best paid 10% of the workforce.
b) Partially pay for that by increasing everyone else's NI contributions.
c) Pay for the rest from the money set aside to re-float the economy after a No Deal Brexit blows a 10 foot hole in the hull...while saying that you're prepared to have a No Deal Brexit in October.
But it's not about logic and fairness is it? It's about appealing to the 60k or so people in the Home Counties golf clubs whose votes he need to be PM.
You lot who voted Brexit. Ever think you might have been played?
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I've said this before a 50-100k salary isn't that extortionate these days (and certainly not in London). But surely he has to realise this is the wrong priority right now? 40% is fair.
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BFYP
30million people in work.
3 million earn more than £50k.
Go figure.
The really interesting numbers, of course, would be what percentage of Tory party members earn more than £50k. I suspect Boris has a good idea, hence this ruse...
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It's a bit unseemly as contenders for the top job start divvying out the spoils before they get in the door.
Boris is the wombat of politics, eats roots and leaves.
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BFYP
30million people in work.
3 million earn more than £50k.
Go figure.
The really interesting numbers, of course, would be what percentage of Tory party members earn more than £50k. I suspect Boris has a good idea, hence this ruse...
The location split of that would be interesting too.
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As the head of the IFS said this morning, Johnson's plan would massively disproportionately benefit very wealthy pensioners because they don't pay NI.
I'm sure the fact that the Tory party membership comprises far (EDIT. far, not fat) more wealthy pensioners as a percentage than the general.public is just a coincidence...
Johnson. Scheming, value-free t**t of the highest order.
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Rory Stewart Ex Para has done a great job with prison violence.
By the way my favourite for the next credible leader is also an ex Para.
Rory Stewart was never in the Para's!! He spent 6 months in the Black Watch during his gap year. There is a reason he is known as Florence of Belgravia for err, overstating his credentials...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/01/opposite-career-politician-rory-stewart-pm-tory-leadership
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Gee I spoke too soon, here he is looking after us after all. Raising the tax threshold for those earning above 50K to 80K with the money put aside for a no-deal brexit.
Qs/ Why is boofhead looking to use a one off-expense to give the upper wage earners a permanent tax break? what happens when this money runs out, more cuts to education and health?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_Kingdom
Well this is very Tory isn't it?
a) Prioritise a tax giveaway of up to £6k per year for the best paid 10% of the workforce.
b) Partially pay for that by increasing everyone else's NI contributions.
c) Pay for the rest from the money set aside to re-float the economy after a No Deal Brexit blows a 10 foot hole in the hull...while saying that you're prepared to have a No Deal Brexit in October.
But it's not about logic and fairness is it? It's about appealing to the 60k or so people in the Home Counties golf clubs whose votes he need to be PM.
You lot who voted Brexit. Ever think you might have been played?
Remind me again, how much does Boris earn?
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I dont at this point know enough about them, some I flat out dont like.
You'll be getting a vote wont you, Andy? ;-)
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Gee I spoke too soon, here he is looking after us after all. Raising the tax threshold for those earning above 50K to 80K with the money put aside for a no-deal brexit.
Qs/ Why is boofhead looking to use a one off-expense to give the upper wage earners a permanent tax break? what happens when this money runs out, more cuts to education and health?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_Kingdom
Well this is very Tory isn't it?
a) Prioritise a tax giveaway of up to £6k per year for the best paid 10% of the workforce.
b) Partially pay for that by increasing everyone else's NI contributions.
c) Pay for the rest from the money set aside to re-float the economy after a No Deal Brexit blows a 10 foot hole in the hull...while saying that you're prepared to have a No Deal Brexit in October.
But it's not about logic and fairness is it? It's about appealing to the 60k or so people in the Home Counties golf clubs whose votes he need to be PM.
You lot who voted Brexit. Ever think you might have been played?
Remind me again, how much does Boris earn?
He made tons off his "articles" he wrote for newspapers and doing the after dinner speaker circuit.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/06/boris-johnson-earned-51000-for-one-speech-mps-register-reveals
Mind, the 40% tax thing wont affect him. His accountant will see to that.
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Gee I spoke too soon, here he is looking after us after all. Raising the tax threshold for those earning above 50K to 80K with the money put aside for a no-deal brexit.
Qs/ Why is boofhead looking to use a one off-expense to give the upper wage earners a permanent tax break? what happens when this money runs out, more cuts to education and health?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_Kingdom
Well this is very Tory isn't it?
a) Prioritise a tax giveaway of up to £6k per year for the best paid 10% of the workforce.
b) Partially pay for that by increasing everyone else's NI contributions.
c) Pay for the rest from the money set aside to re-float the economy after a No Deal Brexit blows a 10 foot hole in the hull...while saying that you're prepared to have a No Deal Brexit in October.
But it's not about logic and fairness is it? It's about appealing to the 60k or so people in the Home Counties golf clubs whose votes he need to be PM.
You lot who voted Brexit. Ever think you might have been played?
Remind me again, how much does Boris earn?
He made tons off his "articles" he wrote for newspapers and doing the after dinner speaker circuit.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/06/boris-johnson-earned-51000-for-one-speech-mps-register-reveals
Mind, the 40% tax thing wont affect him. His accountant will see to that.
But how much would he be handing to himself if he reduces tax in the way he says he will..?
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This lady got it right about one of the candidates :thumbsup:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRd9rMCM_MA&feature=youtu.be
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Something else about Boris - surely tax and stuff is the prerogative of the Chancellor?
And who'd want to be his Chancellor and having to announce tax cuts but getting none of the credit for it? :silly:
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It would be funny if not so serious - Johnsons Battle Bus ;)
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Here's a nice quote about Johnson.
"If Boris Johnson is the answer, there is something desperately wrong with the question.
“If the day ever comes that Boris Johnson becomes tenant of Downing Street, I shall be among those packing my bags for a new life in Buenos Aires or suchlike, because it means that Britain has abandoned its last pretensions to be a serious country.
“ Most politicians are ambitious and ruthless, but Boris is a gold medal egomaniac. I would not trust him with my wife nor – from painful experience – my wallet.
“His chaotic public persona is not an act – he is, indeed, manically disorganised about everything except his own image management. He is also a far more ruthless, and frankly nastier, figure than the public appreciates.
“I would not take Boris's word about whether it is Monday or Tuesday.
"He is not a man to believe in, to trust or respect, save as a superlative exhibitionist. He is bereft of judgment, loyalty and discretion. Only in the star-crazed, frivolous Britain of the 21st century could such a man have risen so high, and he is utterly unfit to go higher still."
Sounds like someone from the opposite end of the political spectrum doing a hatchet job, right?
Wrong. It's Max Hastings, the eminent Tory and ex-editor of The Telegraph, where he was Johnson's boss when Johnson was a journalist who lied on a regular basis about the EU.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/10/boris-johnson-unfit-to-be-prime-minister
Welcome to your next PM. Facilitated by you lot who voted for Leave. Because Leave was never about the EU. It was about Johnson's ambition.
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FMD the EU is so critical of our illustrious candidates, and they think Raab makes it up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
EU view of Tory leadership candidates deeply critical, say sources
Boris Johnson viewed as Trump-like figure while Dominic Raab accused of ‘making things up’
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/11/eu-view-of-tory-leadership-candidates-deeply-critical-say-sources
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You say all that though BST, an idiot people perceive him to be but he on the face of it has achieved things and been successful. He's not someone who tends to fail.
The thing about this race is largely ticking off who you don't like....
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You say all that though BST, an idiot people perceive him to be but he on the face of it has achieved things and been successful. He's not someone who tends to fail.
The thing about this race is largely ticking off who you don't like....
*ahem*garden bridge £53mill 'spaffed up the wall'*ahem*
And that's just for starters, fail is all he ever does but it gets laughed off because 'it's only lovable old Boris being lovable old Boris'.
And I'd love to know what things he's actually achieved because I can't think of any.
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You say all that though BST, an idiot people perceive him to be but he on the face of it has achieved things and been successful. He's not someone who tends to fail.
The thing about this race is largely ticking off who you don't like....
Let’s be honest none of them are fit for purpose.
You can see them huddled with their election gurus
What do Northern people want ? ....err free scratch cards and vape refills ! ..right let’s promise that then !
What will get the wealthy vote ? ....errr lift tax thresholds and reduce IHT ....right promise that !
How do we rubbish my opponents ? ...expose their drug taking and philandering ...yes but we’ve already done that ...oh yeh
How do we get more MPs to support me ?..promise them a cabinet post ! ...which ones ?..all 202 of them.
What do brexiteers want ? ..what do remainders want ?....it doesn’t matter just get in.
But if I get in how do I do all the above ? ......you don’t !
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You say all that though BST, an idiot people perceive him to be but he on the face of it has achieved things and been successful. He's not someone who tends to fail.
The thing about this race is largely ticking off who you don't like....
*ahem*garden bridge £53mill 'spaffed up the wall'*ahem*
And that's just for starters, fail is all he ever does but it gets laughed off because 'it's only lovable old Boris being lovable old Boris'.
And I'd love to know what things he's actually achieved because I can't think of any.
Here's a few things GW
11 Questions Boris Johnson Should Have To Face In The Tory Leadership Contest
The favourite to be prime minister is avoiding media scrutiny while rivals like Michael Gove face a grilling.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-key-questions-tory-leadership-contest-2019_uk_5cfe19fbe4b04e90f1cc075b?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIs
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You say all that though BST, an idiot people perceive him to be but he on the face of it has achieved things and been successful. He's not someone who tends to fail.
The thing about this race is largely ticking off who you don't like....
*ahem*garden bridge £53mill 'spaffed up the wall'*ahem*
And that's just for starters, fail is all he ever does but it gets laughed off because 'it's only lovable old Boris being lovable old Boris'.
And I'd love to know what things he's actually achieved because I can't think of any.
water cannons https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/19/boris-johnson-unused-water-cannon-sold-for-scrap-at-300000-loss
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You say all that though BST, an idiot people perceive him to be but he on the face of it has achieved things and been successful. He's not someone who tends to fail.
The thing about this race is largely ticking off who you don't like....
Don't accept what I say, BFYP. I'm only making my judgement from the outside looking in. As are you too, obviously.
On whether Johnson does or does not tend to fail, look at what Max Hastings said about him, having been his employer for a decade.
"He is, indeed, manically disorganised about everything except his own image management."
I think we'll all agree that he has been spectacularly successful at managing his image and career. Whether he has ever succeeded at anything else is up for debate.
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The difficulty is that many believe the self promotional propaganda.
Trump is a great example.
He managed to sell himself as a successful businessman, despite his failure record including bankrupting a casino......something that takes a special level of incompetency.
BoJo works to bypass reason and analysis, and replace it with personality brand loyalty.
It has an audience in the world of "influencers" and media profiles.
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You say all that though BST, an idiot people perceive him to be but he on the face of it has achieved things and been successful. He's not someone who tends to fail.
The thing about this race is largely ticking off who you don't like....
Come on BFYP play the game (as Boris would say). You can't come on and post that without listing as least some of those things you think he has achieved. Because we can certainly list quite a few that went wrong.
My tuppence worth of what Boris has achieved is: the £10 million cuts to London Fire Brigade, closing 10 stations, loosing 500 firefighters and 27 fire engines.
All of which, as well as leading to longer average call out times, left the city without an aerial ladder appliance to be able to fight a tower block fire - and would have saved lives at Grenfell Tower.
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You say all that though BST, an idiot people perceive him to be but he on the face of it has achieved things and been successful. He's not someone who tends to fail.
The thing about this race is largely ticking off who you don't like....
Come on BFYP play the game (as Boris would say). You can't come on and post that without listing as least some of those things you think he has achieved. Because we can certainly list quite a few that went wrong.
My tuppence worth of what Boris has achieved is: the £10 million cuts to London Fire Brigade, closing 10 stations, loosing 500 firefighters and 27 fire engines.
All of which, as well as leading to longer average call out times, left the city without an aerial ladder appliance to be able to fight a tower block fire - and would have saved lives at Grenfell Tower.
Quite right, and he was also successful in buying us a few Water Cannons that we lost money on. Credit where credit's due and all that. :turd:
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If you've decided Boris is a complete Wazzock, then who to choose?
....the pustule Gove,
Victoria's favourite Jeremy,
or the go-to guy "quick Matt Hancock":
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8uiKIEXYAEYtAV.jpg
Sometimes an image is so much better than words!
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Oh f*ck on a day by day basis you start to see how (at the best) inept all of these are, and then realise one of them will be handed the keys to number 10. It’s gonna be a rocky ride guys
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''Tory leadership contest: Dominic Raab reaches over 55s on Facebook''
Why is he targeting older people? :rolleyes:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48586082
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https://metro.co.uk/video/all-times-jeremy-hunts-mispronounced-1942756/?ito=vjs-link
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This thread made me smile..On here it's like asking the membership of the Everton supporters club who Liverpool should sign as their next manager..lol
You are never going to like any of them..lol
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They can't all be wrong.
There's not much difference between a proper noun and an adjective in his case though is there? 😳
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Plenty of Tory supporters on here WingCo. Mind, given the rabble that is wanting to lead their party, I do understand them being too ashamed to give their two-pennorth on this subject.
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This thread made me smile..On here it's like asking the membership of the Everton supporters club who Liverpool should sign as their next manager..lol
You are never going to like any of them..lol
Well the one who I think would do the least damage to the country is Rory Stewart. That's the best you'll get out of me as it's like trying to find the least smelly turd in a bucket of turds.
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Plenty of Tory supporters on here WingCo. Mind, given the rabble that is wanting to lead their party, I do understand them being too ashamed to give their two-pennorth on this subject.
I've not seen any Tory supporters on here, only Brexit voters. The amount of them in Northern Labour heartlands would support that view.
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This thread made me smile..On here it's like asking the membership of the Everton supporters club who Liverpool should sign as their next manager..lol
You are never going to like any of them..lol
Well the one who I think would do the least damage to the country is Rory Stewart. That's the best you'll get out of me as it's like trying to find the least smelly turd in a bucket of diarrhoea.
FTFY :turd:
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Plenty of Tory supporters on here WingCo. Mind, given the rabble that is wanting to lead their party, I do understand them being too ashamed to give their two-pennorth on this subject.
I've not seen any Tory supporters on here, only Brexit voters. The amount of them in Northern Labour heartlands would support that view.
There's at least two on this thread who I'm pretty sure have said they've been Tory voters in the past.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/carljackmiller/status/1138851429425328128
Here's the next PM of the UK. Explaining why it's perfectly alright for the leader of a country to say Muslim women look like letterboxes. Apparently it's because that's how people want to hear politicians talking.
You've seen the buffoon side of him. THIS is what he is really like. A moral black hole.
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It's like voting for which disease you'd prefer or if selecting Boris more like having to explain to your partner how you gave them the clap.
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Or, in Johnson's case, having to explain to your wife how another woman was carrying your child.
Twice with two different wives.
Whatever happened to Back to Basics, eh?
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And here is some of what this shower have not been taking care of while searching for their own immortality.
Taken from a Guardian readers comment today.
Put in simple terms the government has stopped governing. The government has not legislated since April. We are a nation decapitated. Concerned only with their own future they've simply stopped even bothering with today.
A few statistics.
Violent crime has increased by 19% in the last year.
Life expectancy has decreased by 13 months for men and 14 months for women.
Five million people in insecure and low paid work.
The number of children in absolute poverty increased by 200,000 in 17/18.
The number of pensioners in relative poverty increased in the same period from 17% to 18%.
Literacy is falling to. Projected rates of literacy are falling to such an extent it's predicted that by 2030 we will have dropped 4 place on the oecd index.
Health. 44% of nhs hospitals are in deficit. This rises to 90% of acute treatment centres.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46984559
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/mar/07/life-expectancy-slumps-by-five-months
https://www.tes.com/news/uk-will-drop-world-literacy-and-numeracy-table
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/trusts-deficit
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Maybe this is the one fact over hundreds as to why it should not be boris ever
because in a crisis this is his response.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1138754388368007168
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Maybe this is the one fact over hundreds as to why it should not be boris ever
because in a crisis this is his response.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1138754388368007168
Don't forget that he couldn't wait to run away on an unnecessary foreign trip instead of voting on the Heathrow runway, in order to avoid having to lie in front of a bulldozer as he promised he would.
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And yet Alison Pearson in the Tele:
''Tories would be mad not to choose Boris for leader – no one else comes close''
Close to what, being the most dishonest in parliament, being the most self serving or the .............................................................
I think it would be safer to tell my partner I had the clap rather than saying I voted for boris
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It's like voting for which disease you'd prefer or if selecting Boris more like having to explain to your partner how you gave them the clap.
Genuine question here, if the same thing happens if ever Labour get back into power, would their election of a leader method be any different?
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It's like voting for which disease you'd prefer or if selecting Boris more like having to explain to your partner how you gave them the clap.
Genuine question here, if the same thing happens if ever Labour get back into power, would their election of a leader method be any different?
I hope not DH as i would not want to see a repeat of this mess where two leaders have resigned where one fell on his plastic sword and the other driven to it by a bunch of self serving ego maniacs that don't give a shit about anything but themselves. There has been no effective government since the referendum and we are unlikely to see any change for a goodly while. If labor had created this amount of chaos and wasted a similar amount of money most of the media, industry and commerce would have been on their case 24/7. So in answer to your question no, I don't think it could possibly ever be anywhere near as disastrous and stupid as this is.
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This though with all the usual flaws of polling is why he will win it. MP's and Tory party members will see this and be encouraged by it. We can of course question the numbers and the reason the poll was published.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/06/11/boris-johnson-course-140-seat-majority-general-election-becomes/
Personally, it's wait and see what policies etc he enacts before a general election before we vote. I cannot see anyone beating him.
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This though with all the usual flaws of polling is why he will win it. MP's and Tory party members will see this and be encouraged by it. We can of course question the numbers and the reason the poll was published.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/06/11/boris-johnson-course-140-seat-majority-general-election-becomes/
Personally, it's wait and see what policies etc he enacts before a general election before we vote. I cannot see anyone beating him.
We can't of course see the data surrounding the poll so we don't know what was asked nor how many were polled but yes you're correct to question the numbers, the motives I would think are to get blunderbus across the line at all costs to try and save the tories.
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It says 2000, which usually is a large enough sample to be representative.
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It says 2000, which usually is a large enough sample to be representative.
[/quote
Not sure that's enough to convince the Europeans though.
''European newspapers have expressed horror at the prospect of Boris Johnson becoming the UK’s next prime minister, describing him as a scandal-proof, serial promise-breaker whose arrival at No 10 would be “a calamity for his country and for Europe”.
Le Monde, in a coruscating editorial, said Johnson had shown himself to be “a stranger to logic and convictions” in a career rich in “deceits, blunders and failures”. In the run-up to the 2016 referendum, he “told lies on the side of a bus, promised the UK could have its cake and eat it, and compared the EU to the Third Reich”.
As foreign secretary, he had “made his country an object of ridicule around the world with his amateurism, flippancy and ignorance”. Rivalling Nigel Farage for populism, France’s newspaper of record continued, Johnson’s “jingoistic rhetoric” promised Britons an unrealistic “glorious global future”.
Guardian Today: the headlines, the analysis, the debate - sent direct to you
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His threat to withhold the €39bn Brexit divorce settlement would have “incalculable consequences”, damaging the international credibility of a country priding itself on being a champion of the rule of law. And, for the EU, a Johnson premiership would mean “a mini-Trump across the Channel, dedicated to its sabotage”.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/13/mini-trump-across-the-channel-european-media-on-boris-johnson-as-british-pm
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It's like voting for which disease you'd prefer or if selecting Boris more like having to explain to your partner how you gave them the clap.
Genuine question here, if the same thing happens if ever Labour get back into power, would their election of a leader method be any different?
I hope not DH as i would not want to see a repeat of this mess where two leaders have resigned where one fell on his plastic sword and the other driven to it by a bunch of self serving ego maniacs that don't give a shit about anything but themselves. There has been no effective government since the referendum and we are unlikely to see any change for a goodly while. If labor had created this amount of chaos and wasted a similar amount of money most of the media, industry and commerce would have been on their case 24/7. So in answer to your question no, I don't think it could possibly ever be anywhere near as disastrous and stupid as this is.
So you don’t really know then.
Maybe one of our political experts could shed some light on it.
As for the media, they have been on the case of the government 24/7.
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It's like voting for which disease you'd prefer or if selecting Boris more like having to explain to your partner how you gave them the clap.
Genuine question here, if the same thing happens if ever Labour get back into power, would their election of a leader method be any different?
I hope not DH as i would not want to see a repeat of this mess where two leaders have resigned where one fell on his plastic sword and the other driven to it by a bunch of self serving ego maniacs that don't give a shit about anything but themselves. There has been no effective government since the referendum and we are unlikely to see any change for a goodly while. If labor had created this amount of chaos and wasted a similar amount of money most of the media, industry and commerce would have been on their case 24/7. So in answer to your question no, I don't think it could possibly ever be anywhere near as disastrous and stupid as this is.
So you don’t really know then.
Maybe one of our political experts could shed some light on it.
As for the media, they have been on the case of the government 24/7.
Depends whether there is a resignation or a coup I would think. Nothing to stop you having a google yourself DH.
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Hound.
If I understand your question correctly, the Labour method is slightly different.
For the Tories, MPs vote in a series of elections with the candidates with the lowest votes eliminated until only two are left. Then the party members vote between those two.
For Lab, candidates are put forward by sponsoring MPs. I think a candidate needs 10 or 12 sponsors to make the cut. After that, ALL the MPs go to a transferrable vote election by the party members. All the first preferences are counted. The candidate who comes last is eliminated and their second preferences redistributed. And so on u til one candidate has 50.1% of the vote.
The Tory method gives a lot of power to the MPs in being able to filter out candidates who the MPs don't like. You need 100+ MPs supporting you in practice to make the final 2. The Labour method gives much more power to members because a candidate only needs a handful of supporting MPs.
That's why Corbyn is Labour leader. He would never have made the final 2 under the Tory method. Equally, I suspect Raab or Leadsom would be in the top 2 among Tory members but they won't make the top 2 among Tory MPs.
Interestingly, Corbyn was so unpopular among Lab MPs that he almost didn't get the handful of sponsors he needed to make the membership vote in 2015. He only made it because Sadiq Khan sponsored him saying that he didn't want him as leader, but that it was important for the debate to have a Left wing candidate. Wonder what Khan thinks of that now?
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Thanks for that explanation BST.
Although the voting methods are different it still is a drawn out process.
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Hound. Yeah. But it has to be really.
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McVey, Leadsom and Harper out. Thank f*ck.
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Yeah but Johnson already has enough votes to make the final 2. Assuming they stick with him in later rounds. And we know the Tory membership will vote for him. So welcome to your new PM.
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Hound. Yeah. But it has to be really.
Agreed, which I why I thought it was unfair of Sydney to have a go at the Tory method of voting for a new leader when all parties (I would imagine) have a long drawn out system.
I have no political allegiance by the way before anyone has a go at me.
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Hound. Yeah. But it has to be really.
Agreed, which I why I thought it was unfair of Sydney to have a go at the Tory method of voting for a new leader when all parties (I would imagine) have a long drawn out system.
I have no political allegiance by the way before anyone has a go at me.
The problem has been too many candidates making it drawn out. They could easily have made it that someone wanting to stand has to have a certain number of sponsors to make it on to the ballot paper in the first place. Only needing two names has led to the bloated field and extended whittling down that has to be done.
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Looking at the numbers, it looks very hard for Raab to make the final 2. And he's the only one left I could imagine pushing Johnson close with the Tory members.
Be thankful for tiny mercies I suppose. I'd marginally prefer to have Johnson running the country than Raab.
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Always the possibility of surprises I guess but it looks to me like Johnson and Hunt as the final 2.
What a choice. Two privileged men who haven't an ounce of political philosophy between them, but are both driven by out and out ambition.
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Yeah but Johnson already has enough votes to make the final 2. Assuming they stick with him in later rounds. And we know the Tory membership will vote for him. So welcome to your new PM.
If someone had told me a few years ago that Boris Johnson would become PM I would have laughed.
How could such a lying, scheming, bungling, embarrassing, selfish person ever be allowed to be PM?
It's enough to make you want to emigrate to the USA.
Oh wait........
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Hound. Yeah. But it has to be really.
The problem has been too many candidates making it drawn out. They could easily have made it that someone wanting to stand has to have a certain number of sponsors to make it on to the ballot paper in the first place. Only needing two names has led to the bloated field and extended whittling down that has to be done.
Agreed, which I why I thought it was unfair of Sydney to have a go at the Tory method of voting for a new leader when all parties (I would imagine) have a long drawn out system.
I have no political allegiance by the way before anyone has a go at me.
But wouldn’t that mean that they had to change their rules before they could commence their voting.
Even more delays?
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Always the possibility of surprises I guess but it looks to me like Johnson and Hunt as the final 2.
What a choice. Two privileged men who haven't an ounce of political philosophy between them, but are both driven by out and out ambition.
Agree with that.
More importantly, so does the money:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/revealed-climate-change-denier-makes-big-donation-boris-johnson-and-jeremy-hunt/
Mitigate the business risk by investing in both candidates, sound thinking there.
So there goes Democracy, and now a word from our sponsors!
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Hound. Yeah. But it has to be really.
The problem has been too many candidates making it drawn out. They could easily have made it that someone wanting to stand has to have a certain number of sponsors to make it on to the ballot paper in the first place. Only needing two names has led to the bloated field and extended whittling down that has to be done.
Agreed, which I why I thought it was unfair of Sydney to have a go at the Tory method of voting for a new leader when all parties (I would imagine) have a long drawn out system.
I have no political allegiance by the way before anyone has a go at me.
But wouldn’t that mean that they had to change their rules before they could commence their voting.
Even more delays?
They can do that any time, they don't have to do it just when there's a leadership election. The real point is, of course, that they should never have changed the rules to what they are now in the first place.
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Hound. Yeah. But it has to be really.
The problem has been too many candidates making it drawn out. They could easily have made it that someone wanting to stand has to have a certain number of sponsors to make it on to the ballot paper in the first place. Only needing two names has led to the bloated field and extended whittling down that has to be done.
Agreed, which I why I thought it was unfair of Sydney to have a go at the Tory method of voting for a new leader when all parties (I would imagine) have a long drawn out system.
I have no political allegiance by the way before anyone has a go at me.
But wouldn’t that mean that they had to change their rules before they could commence their voting.
Even more delays?
They can do that any time, they don't have to do it just when there's a leadership election. The real point is, of course, that they should never have changed the rules to what they are now in the first place.
Maybe, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.
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This is such a strange, and controversial, election because it is the first time a party has forced a leadership contest because they were unable to deliver their own policies.
Traditionally the government would have had to fall and call an election, so the electorate got a say if they agreed with the new leader's policies. But now they are kept in place by the Fixed Term Parliament Act. Let's hope this left over abomination from Cameron's reign goes they way of him and May sooner rather than later.
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Hound. Yeah. But it has to be really.
The problem has been too many candidates making it drawn out. They could easily have made it that someone wanting to stand has to have a certain number of sponsors to make it on to the ballot paper in the first place. Only needing two names has led to the bloated field and extended whittling down that has to be done.
Agreed, which I why I thought it was unfair of Sydney to have a go at the Tory method of voting for a new leader when all parties (I would imagine) have a long drawn out system.
I have no political allegiance by the way before anyone has a go at me.
But wouldn’t that mean that they had to change their rules before they could commence their voting.
Even more delays?
They can do that any time, they don't have to do it just when there's a leadership election. The real point is, of course, that they should never have changed the rules to what they are now in the first place.
Maybe, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Not in a party wanting to run a country. That needs foresight.
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Hound. Yeah. But it has to be really.
The problem has been too many candidates making it drawn out. They could easily have made it that someone wanting to stand has to have a certain number of sponsors to make it on to the ballot paper in the first place. Only needing two names has led to the bloated field and extended whittling down that has to be done.
Agreed, which I why I thought it was unfair of Sydney to have a go at the Tory method of voting for a new leader when all parties (I would imagine) have a long drawn out system.
I have no political allegiance by the way before anyone has a go at me.
But wouldn’t that mean that they had to change their rules before they could commence their voting.
Even more delays?
They can do that any time, they don't have to do it just when there's a leadership election. The real point is, of course, that they should never have changed the rules to what they are now in the first place.
Maybe, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Not in a party wanting to run a country. That needs foresight.
Again, out of interest, when did they adopt their current leadership election rules.
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Not sure, but it's till the same as when Cameron won in 2005.
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Hound. Yeah. But it has to be really.
Agreed, which I why I thought it was unfair of Sydney to have a go at the Tory method of voting for a new leader when all parties (I would imagine) have a long drawn out system.
I have no political allegiance by the way before anyone has a go at me.
Correction just in case It's not clear from my scrawlings DH, I don't give a rats about the conservative selection method it's the candidates, the party and their ideology, just as they don't give a rats about anyone but themselves and their party and their money, but if they do they hide it extremely well.
Election procedure
The principles of the procedure for selecting the leader of the Conservative Party are laid down the Conservative Party Constitution, while the detailed rules are agreed by the 1922 Committee executive in consultation with the Conservative Party Board.[66] Nominations for the leadership are invited by the Chairman of the 1922 Committee, acting as returning officer. When nominations close, a list of valid nominations is published. If there is only one valid nomination, that person is elected. If two valid nominations are received, both names go forward to the party membership.
If more than two nominations are received, a ballot is held within the Parliamentary party. An exhaustive ballot system is used to select two candidates to go forward to the party membership. The 1922 Committee executive considered changing the rules so that four candidates go to the ballot of the party membership.[67] They also recommended increasing the number of MP nominations required to eight.[68] On 4 June the rule change was accepted by the party board, with candidates requiring the support of eight MPs to be nominated, then the support of at least 5% of the Parliamentary Conservative Party in the first ballot, and 10% in the second ballot in order to proceed further. In 2019 this equated to the support of sixteen MPs in the first ballot and thirty-two in the second.[69][68]. In the second and subsequent ballots, all candidates receiving below 10% of the Parliamentary Conservative Party (currently 33 votes) are eliminated. If three or more candidates clear this threshold, the candidate receiving fewest votes is also eliminated. If three or more candidates still remain even after this elimination, a further ballot is held using the same rules.[69]. This process is repeated until only two candidates remain.
Nominations opened on 7 June and closed on 10 June. The first ballot will be held on 13 June, with subsequent ballots held on 18, 19 and 20 June. The first membership hustings is scheduled for 22 June and the ballot of the membership will take place over the following month, with the winner announced in the week beginning 22 July.[70]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Conservative_Party_(UK)_leadership_election
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Rory Stewart seems ok on the face of it, but so did Blair in the 90s I suppose.
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Rory Stewart seems ok on the face of it, but so did Blair in the 90s I suppose.
The big difference between Stewart and the rest is that he seems to be the only one who recognises that Brexit can't be solved by promising the moon on a stick just to get elected leader.
However, his drawback is that because he knows what the others are promising is completely unrealistic, he hasn't got a solution of his own and would just persevere with putting May's deal before Parliament again, his argument being that the party should unite behind a new leader and vote it though next time...
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Unless Boris does make us leave without a deal it will be interesting to see how he goes on about getting one sorted.
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We all know who it's going to be. On that basis, we can conclude that the circus is well and truly coming to town, and we've all got ringside seats.
Just think of Johnson v Corbyn at PMQs every Wednesday. Comedy gold drama at it's very best.
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Will he actually answer questions?
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Will he actually answer questions?
Do any politicians.
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Yes. Of course they do.
Do they have to duck and dive because we, the electorate, are not prepared to cut slack? Yes. Of course they do.
All of that is a totally different thing from simply refusing to put yourself in a situation where people can even ask you questions. Which is what Johnson has done.
Look at the big kerfuffle about the candidates have done drugs. Johnson is on record as having said that he used to smoke dope. But because he refused to be interviewed last week, that never came into the agenda. Instead it was the other candidates who got it in the neck. For being honest.
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Johnson is miles ahead in the lead for PM. At this moment in time, he has nothing to gain and everything to lose by answering unnecessary questions that would most definitely be designed to topple his popularity.
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Welcome back BB.
And yes. Of course that is his strategy. Question is, is it appropriate for the person who will be PM to hide from questioning about his suitability to be PM?
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If the questions are in courtroom trial conditions then yes, his decision to resist questioning is appropriate.
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Yeah. Welcome back BB.
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Cheers BST. I thought my time here was done, but truth and integrity were badly lacking in my absence.
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Johnson stance reminds me of Peter Cook lampooning the Jeremy Thorpe trial.
It went something like...
' Draw no conclusions from Mr Trope excercising his inalienable right not to go into the witness box to answer a lot of impertinent questions.'
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Nice (if long) read on Johnson here: Britain is about to find out what nothing means.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/06/24/the-empty-promise-of-boris-johnson
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Rory Stewart seems ok on the face of it, but so did Blair in the 90s I suppose.
The more I see of Stewart the less I like him - or to be more accurate, he comes across as a bit different but when you look more closely at what he actually does he is just a typical Tory. Rather than Blair he is Johnson 10 years ago, that bloke who seemed a bit quirky when he was on the telly.
Last week he said he would do anything to stop Brexit - apart from vote against it.
Last week he said he would never serve under Johnson - yesterday he said he would be delighted to if asked.
He was one of the main spokesmen for May's deal - and so desperate was he to get it passed he made up stats about how much public support it had during a live radio interview.
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Thanks Wilts, if the long suffering British public suffer this moron as pm then one could say they deserve him but no one deserves this arse wipe.
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Rory Stewart looks like he’s playing dress up with his dads clothes - you’d think a person with his social standing would have least have things that fit him, unless he’s been ill, or putting things up his nose, or out running with Gove (who looked a total plank out jogging)
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It's tragically funny that brexiteers are unable to produce anything good to say about what the future will be, when you look into Johnson's existence it's the same about his past.
''Boris Johnson did nothing to protect “the most important biodiversity hotspot on the planet,” while foreign secretary, according to the United Nations patron for the oceans.
Lewis Pugh, who in his role raises awareness about the state of the world’s oceans, has worked with three of the rivals in the Tory leadership race – Michael Gove as environment secretary and both Jeremy Hunt and Boris Johnson as foreign secretaries – but highlighted Johnson’s lack of action''
“Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to get Boris to protect Georgia and the Sandwich Islands. Just one signature and he could have created a protected area over a million square kilometres, but he didn’t do it,” he said.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jun/15/boris-johnson-failed-to-protect-biodiversity-hotspot-says-un-ex
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I think you'll find it's remainers that are unable to produce anything good to say about what the future will be, and point blank refuse to listen to anybody that has.
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I think you'll find it's remainers that are unable to produce anything good to say about what the future will be, and point blank refuse to listen to anybody that has.
Good to see you back buddy; I've been fighting a lone battle on here in your absence. However, good news to report; the Remainers have had a terrible week; Chuka Umunna, Jo Brand, Johnson almost certain to be PM, and a Parliamentary vote that looked certain to win, and got dicked.
Happy days. Welcome back.
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Cheers comrade! I'd given up on finding a common ground of common sense and was sick to death of being presented with link after link of one-sided Guardian 'gospel' gash. Despite that, I'm back with you to fight against Britain Surrendering Together in true British Bulldog style.
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f**k me, when does the season start? Im fed up of this back-slapping, self-reinforcing clique.
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f**k me, when does the season start? Im fed up of this back-slapping, self-reinforcing clique.
Well stop doing it then.
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Welcome back BB. In your honour here is a link to a Huffington Post article that reports activists are set to make Britain ungovernable if Boris attempts a No Deal as PM.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/activists-threaten-wildcat-strikes-if-boris-johnson-commits-no-deal-brexit-as-pm_uk_5d039edfe4b0dc17ef08614f
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Is it just me that thinks Rory Stewart looks just like a jockey ?
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Welcome back BB. In your honour here is a link to a Huffington Post article that reports activists are set to make Britain ungovernable if Boris attempts a No Deal as PM.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/activists-threaten-wildcat-strikes-if-boris-johnson-commits-no-deal-brexit-as-pm_uk_5d039edfe4b0dc17ef08614f
do you think that’s a good idea or not wilts?
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I think you'll find it's remainers that are unable to produce anything good to say about what the future will be, and point blank refuse to listen to anybody that has.
Good to see you back buddy; I've been fighting a lone battle on here in your absence. However, good news to report; the Remainers have had a terrible week; Chuka Umunna, Jo Brand, Johnson almost certain to be PM, and a Parliamentary vote that looked certain to win, and got dicked.
Happy days. Welcome back.
Steve I think a debate is where both sides support their ideas and ''holding the fort'' implies that you that you have been bringing your ideas to the table.
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I think you'll find it's remainers that are unable to produce anything good to say about what the future will be, and point blank refuse to listen to anybody that has.
Welcome back BB when you have something constructive to say we'll be all ears.
To support what you say please show us one (or more) of your posts where you have given us evidence of something good to come from brexit and where the ProEU camp has refused to listen.
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Where's the option for suicide bomber?
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Welcome back BB. In your honour here is a link to a Huffington Post article that reports activists are set to make Britain ungovernable if Boris attempts a No Deal as PM.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/activists-threaten-wildcat-strikes-if-boris-johnson-commits-no-deal-brexit-as-pm_uk_5d039edfe4b0dc17ef08614f
do you think that’s a good idea or not wilts?
Well no-one has said they are going to pick up a rifle and head for the front lines Bpool. And it appears to be the will of the people so I presume you are all for it?
If a Prime Minister is not prepared to gain a democratic mandate for his/her plans then I wouldn't be surprised if there were protests about them.
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I think you'll find it's remainers that are unable to produce anything good to say about what the future will be, and point blank refuse to listen to anybody that has.
Welcome back BB when you have something constructive to say we'll be all ears.
To support what you say please show us one (or more) of your posts where you have given us evidence of something good to come from brexit and where the ProEU camp has refused to listen.
In fear of repeating myself over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, my main concern is not the consequences of Brexit, it's the repercussions of not carrying out the democratic vote that supported it.
Not everyone is suicidal, Syd. People who voted in favour of it considered that the 8.5 billion quid saved in the process of leaving could be invested more profitably.
They have a valid point.
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I think you'll find it's remainers that are unable to produce anything good to say about what the future will be, and point blank refuse to listen to anybody that has.
Welcome back BB when you have something constructive to say we'll be all ears.
To support what you say please show us one (or more) of your posts where you have given us evidence of something good to come from brexit and where the ProEU camp has refused to listen.
In fear of repeating myself over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, my main concern is not the consequences of Brexit, it's the repercussions of not carrying out the democratic vote that supported it.
Not everyone is suicidal, Syd. People who voted in favour of it considered that the 8.5 billion quid saved in the process of leaving could be invested more profitably.
They have a valid point.
Couldn't possibly just answer the question for a change? BB
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I've just answered it. You just refuse to listen.
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I think you'll find it's remainers that are unable to produce anything good to say about what the future will be, and point blank refuse to listen to anybody that has.
Welcome back BB when you have something constructive to say we'll be all ears.
To support what you say please show us one (or more) of your posts where you have given us evidence of something good to come from brexit and where the ProEU camp has refused to listen.
In fear of repeating myself over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, my main concern is not the consequences of Brexit, it's the repercussions of not carrying out the democratic vote that supported it.
Not everyone is suicidal, Syd. People who voted in favour of it considered that the 8.5 billion quid saved in the process of leaving could be invested more profitably.
They have a valid point.
Couldn't possibly just answer the question for a change? BB
Didn't think so, you and Boris similar and we didn't even 'empty chair' you while you were away, zero constructive policies and no answers.
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It's obvious you only believe the 'facts' obtained from your Guardian angel. You should be more Independent and learn to Express yourself to a higher Standard in these Times of uncertainty.
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I've just answered it. You just refuse to listen.
So the pros to Brexit are... democracy.
Ok you've convinced me. Let's ignore all the experts saying we'll all be worse off especially the poorer areas such as ours and let's ignore the likes of Hammond and even Jacob Rees-Mogg who says we're unlikely to not see any benefits for 50 years, let's stick by a unbinding vote made by people who didn't have half the facts they have now.
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"So the pros to Brexit are... democracy".
Well.................Yes! I knew we'd get there one day!
....And on top of that, there's the positive prospect of 8.5 billion quid extra to spend.
.....On ourselves.
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It's obvious you only believe the 'facts' obtained from your Guardian angel. You should be more Independent and learn to Express yourself to a higher Standard in these Times of uncertainty.
That's untrue but I do have a lot of faith in the accuracy of a newspaper that has a strong ethics policy and is not afraid to sanction it's journalists if they fudge it or make false claims. I like your humour BB but it's not a proper debate nor funny when you make claims you cannot support. Should we start calling you Bentley Boris?
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Do you mean 'we' as a member of the 'Britain Surrendering Together' party?
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Do you mean 'we' as a member of the 'Britain Surrendering Together' party?
He's gone full Brexit!!
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Do you mean 'we' as a member of the 'Britain Surrendering Together' party?
He's gone full Brexit!!
Sad but true
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Who's gone full Brexit, me or Suicidal Syd?
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I've just answered it. You just refuse to listen.
So the pros to Brexit are... democracy.
Ok you've convinced me. Let's ignore all the experts saying we'll all be worse off especially the poorer areas such as ours and let's ignore the likes of Hammond and even Jacob Rees-Mogg who says we're unlikely to not see any benefits for 50 years, let's stick by a unbinding vote made by people who didn't have half the facts they have now.
The poorer areas such as ours that voted 69% to leave. Sorry Donny, you're well in the minority on this one.
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I've just answered it. You just refuse to listen.
So the pros to Brexit are... democracy.
Ok you've convinced me. Let's ignore all the experts saying we'll all be worse off especially the poorer areas such as ours and let's ignore the likes of Hammond and even Jacob Rees-Mogg who says we're unlikely to not see any benefits for 50 years, let's stick by a unbinding vote made by people who didn't have half the facts they have now.
The poorer areas such as ours that voted 69% to leave. Sorry Donny, you're well in the minority on this one.
I don't want to speak for DO but I would think that the 69% you are referring to are the ones without the facts Steve.
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I've just answered it. You just refuse to listen.
So the pros to Brexit are... democracy.
Ok you've convinced me. Let's ignore all the experts saying we'll all be worse off especially the poorer areas such as ours and let's ignore the likes of Hammond and even Jacob Rees-Mogg who says we're unlikely to not see any benefits for 50 years, let's stick by a unbinding vote made by people who didn't have half the facts they have now.
The poorer areas such as ours that voted 69% to leave. Sorry Donny, you're well in the minority on this one.
That's just turkey's voting for Christmas.
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I've just answered it. You just refuse to listen.
You answered the question you wanted to answer, not the one that was asked. Like a true politician.
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Go on then Mr Wigerly, what was the question I didn't answer?
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To support what you say please show us one (or more) of your posts where you have given us evidence of something good to come from brexit and where the ProEU camp has refused to listen.
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To support what you say please show us one (or more) of your posts where you have given us evidence of something good to come from brexit and where the ProEU camp has refused to listen.
What am I saying?
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To support what you say please show us one (or more) of your posts where you have given us evidence of something good to come from brexit and where the ProEU camp has refused to listen.
What am I saying?
I think you'll find it's remainers that are unable to produce anything good to say about what the future will be, and point blank refuse to listen to anybody that has.
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And? That is perfectly true!
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Then it must be simplicity itself for you to demonstrate. As you've been asked to do.
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I remember now why I usually ignore you. What the f**k are you on about?
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You made that statement.
You've been asked to prove it.
You refuse to.
I can't make it any simpler for you. If you're still struggling to comprehend then I'm afraid the fault lies at your end.
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What haven't I answered? I've said all along that I don't know what the consequence of Brexit will be, either positive or negative, other than my opinion of the repercussions if we fail to carry out the referendum vote.
Many Brexiters believe that the 8.5 billion quid we would keep instead of giving it to the EU could be invested more profitably. I believe they have a point.
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BB
I've got something positive to say about Brexit.
We have cut a trade deal with South Korea that basically copies the deal that SK had already agreed with the EU.
We've also agreed extensive new trade deals with Palestine and the Faroe Islands. And last I heard, David Davies was trying to cut us a deal with Oklahoma, but that's all gone a bit quiet.
Those are brilliant examples of the benefits that we will derive from leaving. I doff my cap to those who have been telling us what a bright new economic future awaits us, freed from the dead hand of Brussels.
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What haven't I answered? I've said all along that I don't know what the consequence of Brexit will be, either positive or negative, other than my opinion of the repercussions if we fail to carry out the referendum vote.
Many Brexiters believe that the 8.5 billion quid we would keep instead of giving it to the EU could be invested more profitably. I believe they have a point.
But you steadfastly ignore the £100bn we've already lost, the collapse in the value of the pound, the spike in inflation and the three years of shrinkage of real wages, all of which are direct consequences of the collapse in business confidence due to the Leave vote?
Strange behaviour for someone to do that then complain about others not facing up to consequences.
Almost as if you weren't really interested in properly addressing the effects of the vote.
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BST. I think in your determination to get involved in an attempt at reinforcing your clique, you missed the point of my last post.
It's almost as if you weren't really interested in properly addressing the effects of not carrying out the vote.
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Here's something good that will come out of Brexit.
British politicians and business figures will no longer be able to blame the EU for the consequences of their own policies and actions.
Any Brexiteer please feel free to use that in future - so then we might get back to discussing how the next Tory leader will get us out of the mess we are in. Because that shower of **** on the Channel 4 debate clearly dont have a clue.
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BB.
I'd been hoping you might have been growing up in your sabbatical. I'm very disappointed that you seem determined to be as childish as ever.
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I was hoping you might have practised a bit more of what you preach by actually addressing the contents of posts instead of issuing childish personal comments.
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What haven't I answered? I've said all along that I don't know what the consequence of Brexit will be, either positive or negative, other than my opinion of the repercussions if we fail to carry out the referendum vote.
Many Brexiters believe that the 8.5 billion quid we would keep instead of giving it to the EU could be invested more profitably. I believe they have a point.
Maybe with that sort of logic you could be on a combined ticket with Boris, an empty sofa.
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Hancock backing Boris so that he can have a cabinet job.
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Hancock backing Boris so that he can have a cabinet job.
Yes despite Hancock openly criticising Boris over and over again.
Makes you sick. He's more concerned with his own career than trying to block this dangerous, lazy, racist buffoon from being our next PM.
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Hancock backing Boris so that he can have a cabinet job.
Ah, cabinet jobs, snakes in the grass.
Thanks for reminding us of 2010 and what the Remain supporting Lib Dems are really like.
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Here's something good that will come out of Brexit.
British politicians and business figures will no longer be able to blame the EU for the consequences of their own policies and actions.
Any Brexiteer please feel free to use that in future - so then we might get back to discussing how the next Tory leader will get us out of the mess we are in. Because that shower of **** on the Channel 4 debate clearly dont have a clue.
They won't be stuck for someone to blame, Wilts. The British public who voted for it will get that honour.
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Here's the upcoming problem for Labour.
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/4ofbig74dp/SundayTimes_190614_Results_w.pdf
These tables show that Johnson is wildly popular with people who currently identify as Brexit Party supporters. And more popular than not among current Tory supporters.
It's a given that the Tory support is going to bounce back strongly when Johnson is installed. It doesn't matter that 60% of the population can't abide him and don't trust him. If the vote on the Left remains divided, he'll walk a General Election in the autumn.
Be interesting to see if the grown ups in the Labour party can drag Corbyn kicking and screaming to the only policy stance that can counter that.
Given that Momentum has spent the last few days engaging in open warfare against "Blairites", it looks like Corbyn isn't going to come willingly.
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Thought Jeremy Hunt did well in the debate. Stewart gave some good answers but the whole "please let me finish" did get very annoying.
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Yes Billy, I notice he has been endorsed by Farage.
When I hear @BorisJohnson say we will leave on the 31st of October, I am reminded that Mrs May told us 108 times that we would leave on the 29th of March.
https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1140238304664850434
Never thought I’d see the day when I’d retweet Farage, but on this occasion he’s absolutely right. If you believe Johnson has any intention of keeping this promise I’ve got a garden bridge to sell you
https://twitter.com/jonlis1/status/1140250491697467397
Johnson has made his own rope. He has told Brexiteers we will leave on 31st October come what may. But can't leave on the terms we have now because Parliament won't let him. Nor will they allow No Deal.
He can't renegotiate/sign a new deal before 17th October - because that's when the next European Council meets. There isn't time to organise an election between 17th and 31st October. So we won't leave on 31st October and Boris will have betrayed those Brexiteers.
Get back to me on 1st November and let me know what his poll ratings are then.
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Wilts.
And in those circumstances, when he goes to the country with the line: "YOU want to leave. I want to leave. Parliament won't let us leave. Give me a mandate," there'd better be some clarity on the Left...
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Wilts.
And in those circumstances, when he goes to the country with the line: "YOU want to leave. I want to leave. Parliament won't let us leave. Give me a mandate," there'd better be some clarity on the Left...
Agree with this, people think he is stupid, he really is not.
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Stupid is the very last thing he is. When it comes to his career, he's ruthless.
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Wilts.
And in those circumstances, when he goes to the country with the line: "YOU want to leave. I want to leave. Parliament won't let us leave. Give me a mandate," there'd better be some clarity on the Left...
Agree with this, people think he is stupid, he really is not.
No Wilts he may be an inveterate liar, a narcissist, have a short attention span, be totally untrustworthy, lack empathy, unreliable and incompetent but he is not totally stupid. But worthy enough to be in charge of the conservatives.
Oh and the latest stooge of the rwmjs
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/17/boris-johnson-accused-of-making-mps-contradictory-brexit-promises
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Wilts.
And in those circumstances, when he goes to the country with the line: "YOU want to leave. I want to leave. Parliament won't let us leave. Give me a mandate," there'd better be some clarity on the Left...
But if it's not gone through Parliament because of his own Conservative MPs, going to the country will look like 'We can't deliver Brexit, so vote for more of us'. And they'll lose loads of votes to the Brexit Party. Probably splitting their vote and working in Labour's favour.
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Glyn
No.
Because the line would be that it is the centrist Tory MPs (Gaulke, Greening, Grieve, Jo Johnson, Gyimah, Letwin, Morgan etc, etc) who are the problem. There's already a big move from Arron Banks to get previous UKIP members into the Tory party to get those MPs deselected and replaced with swivel-eyed No Deal'ers.
It's an easy line to sell to the 35-ish% of the electorate that Boris would need for a landslide if Labour doesn't get its act together.
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Wilts.
And in those circumstances, when he goes to the country with the line: "YOU want to leave. I want to leave. Parliament won't let us leave. Give me a mandate," there'd better be some clarity on the Left...
I agree with the main point of that statement Billy, but read that Farage tweet again.
If Johnson goes to the country without delivering the Brexit he promised to deliver on 31st October - that is the Brexit he is promising to deliver today with the Parliament in place today - why would Brexiteers believe him and not Farage?
That's why Farage wont do a deal with him. Because he knows Johnson can't deliver Brexit and he knows he will be the one who benefits from it.
And as soon as these senarios start to become facts that immediately changes the landscape for Labour. It's not then about overturning Brexit but opposing Farage and what he stands for - thus giving Corbyn an excuse to move.
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Wilts. Read my post immediately before yours. It's a blindingly obvious strategy for Johnson and Farage.
Blame the impasse on the soft Tory traitors (That's already being done by Banks and the BP)
Pack the Tory membership with ex-UKIP/BP entryists (That's already being done by Banks)
Pack the Tory candidate list with Hard Brexit believers and campaign on Hard Brexit (Constituency NC votes votes on those deemed soft on Brexit are already happening up and down the country)
That requires Labour to have a crystal clear position on Ref2 to solidify the anti-Hard Brexit vote. If the anti-Hard Brexit vote remains fractured, you've got a Johnson landslide on the cards, with just 35-38% of the vote.
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Raab out. Thank f*ck. At least the worst have gone. Boris doesn't deserve it if he can't debate his competition though.
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BST,
If Johnson adopts a no deal by default position, and drifts towards automatic departure in October, the Tory rebels will support a vote of NC, bringing a GE.
Grieve already has the pledges.
The GE would then offer:
(a) a necessary extension to Brexit to allow the GE,
(b) chance to review policy for both parties.
This gives the public vote on the way forward.
As Brexit will not have happened, Farrago will run GE candidates to keep the Tories honest. He may be selective in targeting specific seats.
Boris can only offer no deal under the new HoC numbers. EU are not prepared to open new talks.
For Labour, there is a policy question, and a timing question.
If Conference chooses to change policy, then the manifesto will reflect this, and the GE will be fought on that basis.
Any new policy will take effect before a GE, so supporting Ref2 at this stage is premature.
Are you suggesting Labour should fight a GE on the promise of a subsequent Ref2?
I still don't see how a Ref2 position helps here, over and above the stance in a GE.
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Albie.
Very simple.
Labour's position is currently VERY toxic in the eyes of many left people. Myself included.
Here's why.
I don't believe that Corbyn and the 4Ms are anti-Brexit. And, given the way Labour's polling position has gone through an unprecedented collapse over the first half of this year, nor do about another 6 million left-leaning voters.
You will doubtlessly,once again, repeated your baffled bemusement at this opinion. You will say that Corbyn is whiter than white and is only doing what Conference wants. And that line might just hold if we were all emotionless robots.
But voters don't just make their decisions and form their opinions on impersonal statements. They look at nuance. Body language. They look I to people's eyes and ask themselves whether they believe what they hear.
In the case of Corbyn and the 4Ms, every twitch, every cough, every raise of the eyebrow (as well as every word they said prior to 2016, and many of the words they said since) screams out that they WANT Brexit. I saw him. 24 hours before the polls opened. When he should have been banging the table and rousing people against the xenophobic Brexit that was being pushed by the authoritarian right. I saw him. On an obscure left wing webcast watched by a slack handful of socialist obsessives, undergoing an inquisition. Being asked why he was supporting Remain when he'd spent his life decrying the EU. I saw him squirm and dissemble and say that he appreciated the Left case against the EU but on balance he was in favour of Remain because you need international cooperation to pick up plastic bags dropped off the coast of Colombia.
I saw that. And I've known PRECISELY who he is and what he thinks about Brexit ever since.
And even though I'm in a tiny minority in having seen that, there are enough other clues for other people to make their own judgements. And the impression he gives of Labour's approach to Brecit is toxic. That means that the 6 million supporters they have haemorrhaged are in danger of not coming back.
And who is going to believe, come September, when Conference overwhelmingly puts Corbyn and the 4Ms in their box and instructs them that party policy will be explicitly to campaign for Ref2 and Remain, who will believe that Corbyn believes that? Who will trust him.
So yes. You're absolutely right. It IS about policy and it IS about timing. And given the danger of an Autumn election, leaving the timing of being explicit and clear and passionate about Brexit policy until the last minute is beyond dangerous. Corbyn and the 4Ms need isolating. It needs the rest of the party to ringfence them and to clearly enunciate a Brecit policy that the overwhelming majority of party members and potential voters can passionately get behind.
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BST,
Will you please answer the question I put?
Are you suggesting Labour should fight a GE on the promise of a subsequent Ref2?
I still don't see how a Ref2 position helps here, over and above the stance in a GE.
(1) It alienates any voter unhappy with the failure to deliver Ref1.
(2) It would cost Labour votes in the seats Farrago would target in leave supporting areas.
(3) It cannot be delivered until 22 weeks after the new government takes power, so would be seen as further heel dragging.
(4) Business would be further hampered in investment strategies by uncertainty. Relocation to EU safe havens would continue to the detriment of the UK economy.
(5) You re-open the debate about the question to be put in Ref2.
You suggest Labour needs a new position to "solidify the anti hard brexit vote".
I don't see the evidence that all these votes will fall to Labour, or how many will on a geographic distribution.
SNP and LibDems will take this position, and will increase their support in areas where they are strong.
Labour support is much more fractured across the country on this, and it is likely that seats will be lost as well as gained.
If you have any evidence of a net gain in Labour support from a post GE Ref2, across the marginal seats vulnerable to change, it would be welcome.
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Or to expand on Albie's points. why are the MP's including, Kinnock, Sarah Champion, Lisa Nandy, Gareth Snell, Flint, who wrote to Corbyn today saying that the Brexit Party is more of threat than the LD's or Greens wrong?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/19/labour-mps-warn-corbyn-not-to-commit-to-second-brexit-referendum
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Wilts.
I have no idea why on earth Flint is pandering to racism. Which she is. If you are using her as a back up to your argument, then, frankly, shame on you.
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Albie.
Yes, of course I'm saying Labour's policy should be clearly and unequivocally to support Ref2. Now. and at the next GE.
These are my answers to your other comments.
1) Yes. I know it will alienate Lab Leave voters. But you can't blithely state that and ignore the context. Labour has ALREADY alienated 6 million people who voted Lab in 2017. All the evidence is that those 6 million are predominantly Remain supporters. It is childish to say "yeah but...Lab Leave voters!" without addressing that fact.
In polls immediately after the 2017 Election, Labour were on low/mid-40s and the combined LD/Green share was about 7%. In the latest polls, Labour is on about 21% and the combined LD/Green share is 30%. In the 2017 GE, roughly 75% of Labour voters supported Remain and 25% supported Leave. In the latest polls, around 60% of Labour's (drastically reduced) support identify as Remain supporters and 40% as Leave voters in 2016. Meantime, currently FIFTY percent of all the electorate who voted Remain in 2016 now say they would vote for the LDs or Greens. That is around 24% of the entire electorate.
So, do the maths. Labour Leavers only ever made up around 10% of the electorate. People who voted Labour in 2017 and Remain in 2016 make up about 30% of the electorate. But only around EIGHT percent of the electorate voted Remain in 2016 and now say they would vote Labour. Labour has lost the support of nearly half the people who voted Remain in 2016, and 75% of the people who voted Remain in 2016 and Labour in 2017. Any comments on upsetting Lab Leavers is second and third order blathering nonsense in the face of those facts. It doesn't matter. If Labour can't attract back those enormous numbers of Remain supporters that they have chucked away, they will be destroyed in any GE scenario.
2. It may do. But the alternative, as I say is to be wiped out nationwide.
3. So what? That will not upset the 50+% of the population who think Brexit is a mistake.
4. Ah yes. the brainless, "uncertainty is affecting business, therefore we must get Brexit done" argument. I expect that from some in here, but I thought you were smarter than that. Why do you think uncertainty is affecting business? It's not the uncertainty around the possibility that Brexit may be cancelled! It's the uncertainty about whether Brexit, if it happens, will be very bad or very, very VERY bad for business!
5. Not really worth answering if that is the best 5th point you can come up with.
Now. Let me put a simple question to YOU.
How do YOU think that Labour recovers from polling and national election positions not seen since the last of the tear gas was clearing from the fields of Flanders? What's your strategy?
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Wilts.
I have no idea why on earth Flint is pandering to racism. Which she is. If you are using her as a back up to your argument, then, frankly, shame on you.
Ah, so anyone who doesn't agree with you is a racist now. It's not me who needs to feel shame. Give your head a wobble, read the article and letter, and come back with a proper answer.
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Wilts
What a stupid thing to say.
I'm basing my assessment of Flint on some of the disgraceful things she has said publicly, not on the fact that I disagree with her.
Your comment is symptomatic of the problems we have in reading what we want to believe, rather than engaging with facts.
Edit.
THIS is what I base my judgement of Flint on. Deliberately or ignorantly painting a false picture to justify dislike of immigrants.
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=268932.msg835969#msg835969
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Billy
My citing of Flint is her as one of 26 signatories to a letter relating to Labour's Brexit policy published today. I am interested why you think she and other racists such as Sarah Champion, Stephen Kinnock, Lisa Nandy, Gloria De Piero and Jim Fitzpatrick don't know what the views of their own constituents and are wrong in their conclusions, yet you do?
Shocking comments by Flint though. It doesn't reflect well on the judgment of the former PM who appointed her a minister or previous LOTO who appointed her a shadow minister does it?
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Wilts.
You're better than that first paragraph. I made a specific comment about a specific person. You are much too clever to really think that I think all of the others are racist. You can and should do much better than that.
Second paragraph is more consistent though. It's you dropping back into Whataboutery again rather than addressing the point.
I'm not doubting that there are potential problems for Labour in some post-industrial seats. And that some of those may be lost if Labour takes a firm position on opposing Brexit.
But, as I keep saying, focussing on that and that alone is like worrying about losing a couple of fingers while the meat grinder is mincing your legs. Explain to me how Labour pulls itself back from its worst electoral position in 101 years without pissing one group or another off.
And try to do it without snide daftness. You're better than that.
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By the way, this is a much clearer, more nuanced and better presented argument than the one I'm trying to make.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/18/labour-brexit-remain?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Of course, the tiny cabal around Corbyn is firing out as hominems about Mason being part of a coup against the Dear Leader, but there you go. Might be worth actually reading this and considering the case he's making.
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Stupid is the very last thing he is. When it comes to his career, he's ruthless.
You are spot on Billy.Boris may come across as a cheeky bungling clown but he's far from it..If only he cared as much for his beliefs in running the country (whatever they may be) as much as his own career then he would be ideal for the Tory's,but he doesn't..
For me the classic case in point was the last leadership election.When Gove u turned and stabbed him in the back, much to everybody's shock he stood up and pulled out of the race.Nobody could understand it.It was early days and people still expected him to get into the run off with May..
However Boris knew that with the Gove vote split and the bad blood that was headline news he couldn't rely on the Gove mp's to back him if Gove was booted.So he wisely dropped off the hustings without causing future enemy's these contests bring and waited for another day...
That day has come,he will be the next PM unless something drastic happens..As a tory I personally don't want him,everything he says is designed for impact on the day in question and changes the following week,it's almost as if he makes it up as he goes along..Turkeys however don't vote for xmas and Tory mp's know that with Boris as leader they will get a big bounce against a shockingly inept opposition.It may even allow them the luxury of a early GE.
And that's why I'm so down with Politics, because time and time again Politicians from all party's prove that the job they were elected to do,running the country to their best ability's plays second fiddle to their own political career's.
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"Dominic Raab, the former Brexit secretary, said yesterday that Johnson had looked him in the eyes and told him that he would deliver Brexit by 31 October. David Davis, another former Brexit secretary backing Johnson, said much the same on the Today programme this morning''
''Never give a sucker an even break'' comes to mind
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Sorry Billy, again you are deflecting and avoiding the actual issue. 26 Labour MP's wrote a letter to the Shadow Cabinet yesterday explaining what the effect would be on their constituencies if Labour backed a 2nd referendum.
You have yet to tell me what is wrong with their letter and why you think you know their constituencies better than they do?
Because if you can't convince me, you can't convince, Herbert, Steve, Selby, BB etc. And if you can't convince them you can't convince the wavering voters in the Leave seats Labour needs to win an election.
Caroline Flint isn't supporting Leave because she want's to control immigration. She is doing it because she thinks Farage will win Don Valley.
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This was posted on twitter (Nick Cohen)
Talked to a Tory MP last night who was backing Johnson
"Do you think he'd be any good as PM"
"No"
"What on earth will he do about Brexit"?
"No one knows"
"Why do you want him, then?"
"He's the best hope we've got"
"By 'we" you don't mean Britain do you?"
"No the party, of course"
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Wilts.
I think you need to spend a little more time reading what I write before you respond, rather than responding to what you think I think.
Try this.
"I'm not doubting that there are potential problems for Labour in some post-industrial seats. And that some of those may be lost if Labour takes a firm position on opposing Brexit.
But, as I keep saying, focussing on that and that alone is like worrying about losing a couple of fingers while the meat grinder is mincing your legs."
And then read Mason's article. Consider this fact for example.
"For every voter Labour is currently losing to Farage, it loses four to the Greens, Liberal Democrats or left nationalist parties. That was the evidence presented to the shadow cabinet."
And then try this.
"Explain to me how Labour pulls itself back from its worst electoral position in 101 years without pissing one group or another off."
Or are you happy that Labour is currently supported by little more than 1 in 5 of the electorate?
My issue with Flint by the way is that she has normalised dislike of immigrants by her comments, and she presented entirely wrong "evidence" to support that. Is that the way you want the Labour party to go? Me, I'd rather Labour lose seats and build a truly progressive front than pander to Farage's agenda.
Here's the problem. For every Don Valley you win by following Flint's approach, you will lose 3 other seats. And, more importantly, you will lose a generation of instinctively left-leaning younger voters. They are the ones who have deserted Labour in their millions over the past 6 months.
If you're serious about this, tell me how you win them back.
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I agree that BP are the biggest threat, after all they can probably work with the Greens and LD.
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Wilts.
Some number for you to ponder on.
YouGov poll from late December.
Lab 39
LD 7
Green 4
Among people younger than 50
Lab 51
LD 7
Green 5
Among people who voted Remain in 2016
Lab 50
LD 12
Green 7
Corresponding figures from YG last week
Overall
Lab 19
LD 22
Green 8
Among under 50s
Lab 25
LD 25
Green 14
Among people who voted Remain in 2016
Lab 28
LD 38
Green 12.
Start from there and tell me how Labour doesn't get annihilated in the next GE by listening to Flint.
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I've listed below the best features of the final 2 candidates and all their past achievements.
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Cant disagree with any of that !
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The worst Foreign Secretary in living history versus the worst Health Secretary in living history. What a choice.
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The worst Foreign Secretary in living history versus the worst Health Secretary in living history. What a choice.
Yes it’s like asking you which eye you would like burning out with a red hot poker, the right or the left sir? 😀
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Ask yourself this.
What do either of them believe in? What sort of country do they want Britain to be? What are their opinions about how we deal with climate change, AI, inequality?
This will be three consecutive Tory MPs who will have risen to the highest office without ant concept of what they actually want the country to be.
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This looks well on our future PM.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/21/police-called-to-loud-altercation-at-boris-johnsons-home
And what's even more disturbing...the police claimed this didn't happen, until the journalist have them chapter and verse of the case number and vehicles that attended.
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But while it's OK for Johnson to lie and abuse anyone he wishes, and that's all part of making politics interesting again, if you criticise HIM and you're a Muslim, you get hoyed out of the Tory party.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ShehabKhan/status/1142131526844506112
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That Johnson article by the way, went up in The Guardian website at just after 7 tonight. ITV picked it up immediately and had it as their lead story on the evening news.
The BBC put it on their website just before 11pm and buried it in the middle of the evening news.
This is the next PM. Having the police called to his flat because of a domestic with his partner, who is recorded shouting "Get off me!" with plates smashing and the neighbours saying something banging that shook their house. And the BBC bury it. What the f**k is going on there?
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But while it's OK for Johnson to lie and abuse anyone he wishes, and that's all part of making politics interesting again, if you criticise HIM and you're a Muslim, you get hoyed out of the Tory party.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ShehabKhan/status/1142131526844506112
''EXC: The Conservative Muslim chief has been expelled from the Tory Muslim group. Mohammed Amin tells me he has been expelled following an intervention by CCHQ because he criticised the 'moral integrity' of Boris Johnson''
Don't get too excited he's expelled from the groups not the party BST.
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Fair dos. I misread the tweet.
Hoyed out of your position as head of the Muslim Tories.
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Is there anyone, anything that Boris hasn't abused?
Women
Muslims
Faith
Public Office
Public trust
Public money
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Leaked transcript of Boris and Carrie late night bust up:
B/ oh come on
C/ No get of me you oaf, if you think you can do to me what you'll do to the country think again
B/ but everyone loves me
C/ what about those that live around Heathrow?
B/ they are getting improved transport options.
C/ what about the garden bridge that cost the public 46m?
B/ They didn't tell me there were other bridges already there.
C/What about the 200,000k on water canon?
B/ they were for watering the garden bridge.
C/ agh, scream, you're a liar
B/ only when I have to darling, you will vote for me won't you?
C/ well what about that what you said and the woman held in Iran?
B/ that made no difference-to me.
C/ well what about that poor little Japanese kid you tackled?
B/ he had the ball, I thought he was going to score.
C/ well it's more than what you're going to do tonight, aaaaagh, get off me.
B/ oh come on Carrie, what if I make you the treasurer?
C/ you've already promised that job to around 20 people already you liar, and what about when you insulted the people of Papua New Guinea.
B/ I apologised and said that I'm sure lead lives of blameless bourgeois domesticity, and they love me now.
C/ shhhh, some ones at the door
B/ probably just that nosy bitch from next door.
C/ don't say that I thought we were their friends?
B/ That was last week and anyway we cut the police numbers right back so nothings going to happen, now where was I ...............................
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Wilts.
I think you need to spend a little more time reading what I write before you respond, rather than responding to what you think I think.
Why, you have yet to respond to what I wrote - or the letter the 26 MP's wrote.
Quote your figures all you want, how does that translate into seats? Those 26 have said they will loose their seats if Labour does what you want. Which 26 will your plan replace them with?
Quote your percentage all you want. Remain support is strong in metropolitan areas,university towns and Scotland, not spread out across the country. Look at that Article 50 petition.
The current Labour position retained Peterborough. Whatever stand they take it won't win Brecon.
I don't have a problem with you campaigning or advocating remain, it is your own personal choice. But until you can show me why those 26 MP's are wrong it that letter that's all it should be, your personal choice.
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Tory leadership race day 1
- Police in midnight call to Johnson flat over row with his partner
- Minister Mark Field suspended over physical handing of protestor
- Tory whips investigate abusive texts between Tory MPs
- Tory MP ousted by constituents over expense fraud
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1142189045688279042
and he missed out - Hunt accused of breaking promise to contaminated blood victim
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-48718498
Tories eh, natural party of leadership, it will be a fun summer.
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Wilts.
Its really hard to have a discussion if you insist on ignoring what I write. I've said several times that I accept moving to an explicit Remain stance will cause problems in some post-industrial seats. I don't know how many more times you want me to say that.
But focussing on that and ignoring the other side of the problem as you and those 26 are doing, is what has got Labour into its worst position since WWI. You need to face up to that before you can find a solution. In the latest opinion poll FORTY PER CENT of people who voted Labour in 2017 (in an election Labour lost) now identify with explicitly Remain parties. That's the starting point.
Now, onto the content of the letter from the 26. They state, with zero evidence, that "shifting to a more explicitly pro-remain position would leave us vulnerable in seats we need to hold or win without enough potential seat gains in winnable remain majority areas."
See, I find it useful to actually look at the facts rather than accept assertions. Especially when one of the authors of that letter has previous in making assertions that don't align with the facts, to justify her normalising anti-immigrant feeling.
So. Here's the facts. Here's all the Labour seats and targets where the incumbent's majority is <5%. And the estimates of the percentage of the electorate in those seats who currently support Leave, from a huge Survation poll.
https://mobile.twitter.com/stephen_latham/status/1141741211339894785
So there you go. Even allowing for the Scottish seats, there are still more Lab marginals/targets in Remain areas than in Leave areas. And THEN factor in that 75% of Labour's 2017 support identify as Remain supporters.
Now. I'll ask again. If I'm wrong on this, explain to me what the policy should be to bring Labour back from its current catastrophic position. Stop diverting. Stop ignoring. Tell me what YOU think we should do.
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Even if Boris has screwed his chances of getting the top job and nothing is certain, the one thing that is certain is that it will not feel like a win if *unt gets the job will it?
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Billy
I stand by my positions that I have repeated several times on several threads.
Labour need a policy that attracts both Remainers and Leavers, because thats where their voters are. It should develop as the political situation around it develops. Calls for a 2nd referendum now are just being seen as calls to overturn the 1st one - and alienating a certain set of voters.
If there is a possibility of deal it should be followed - with that deal being put to a public vote (which is the situation now).
The closer we get to a Johnson premiership, where there is no chance of a deal, then it can only be a public vote on No Deal V Remain.
If a Johnson premiership falls, then Labour's position in the subsequent GE should be decided by a special poll of the membership, so it would be most likely Remain.
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Wilts.
If your policy is to attract both Leave AND Remain supporters, then I assume you accept that it is failing in the most spectacular fashion.
In polls at the turn of the year, 52% of Remain voters from 2016 and about 18% of people who voted Leave were supporting Labour.
In the latest polls, the figures are 28% and 9%.
So Labour's current policies are alienating both Leave and Remain supporters. Labour's lost about half of each. Which is quite some feat!
The problem from here of course, is what to do to mitigate the worst Labour support since Lloyd-George was PM. See, if you only attract the Leave supporters that you've lost, they tot up only about 5% of the electorate. And if you attract them by going full Flint, you'll lose lifelong Labour members. Like me.
You say you want a policy that attracts both Leave and Remain supporters.
Well aye. No shit? Don't we all? Question is, what IS that policy. Because the current triangulation is attracting neither side.
So come on. What's the magic solution?
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Yet more lies from Boris
New evidence suggesting close links between Boris Johnson and Donald Trump’s controversial former campaign manager Steve Bannon can be revealed today, calling into question the former foreign secretary’s previous denials of an association with the influential far-right activist.
Video evidence obtained by the Observer shows Bannon, who helped mastermind Trump’s successful bid for the presidency but was later exiled from the White House, talking about his relationship and contacts with Johnson, and how he helped him craft the first speech after his resignation as foreign secretary, in which Johnson tore into Theresa May’s Brexit strategy.
And this is the guy the conservative party who know him best and have worked closely with him for years have put at the top of the ticket.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/22/video-reveals-steve-bannon-links-to-boris-johnson
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This is funny, spin from the Tele, I'm surprised that they could actually steel themselves to write the words left-wing on the front page.
"Left-wing neighbour admit to taping Boris Johnson row with girlfriend''
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/
and further down the page another article reads '' My husband’s put-downs have brought us to breaking point''
Yet more "Dear Richard Madeley: 'I seem to have lost the knack of making friends''
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All Johnson had to do was not shit the bed for a couple or three weeks and he was PM.
He couldn't even manage 36 hours without his real personality coming back to the fore.
Now, I'm not one to claim that politicians have to be whiter than white. I don't think him having a row with his partner (is this his third, or fourth... I've lost count) necessarily makes him unfit for Govt. But it's the content of the row that's illuminating. The woman who shares her life with him screaming "You just don't care for anything because you're spoilt. You have no care for money or anything."
That meshes precisely with what others who know Johnson have said about him. He cares for nothing but himself and his own desires. And THAT makes him unfit for Govt.
Won't change the outcome, mind. The Tory members will still vote for him.
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And talking about Johnson's personality defects, look at how he responds when put under pressure.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-business-hustings-tory-leader-no-deal-brexit-a8970491.html
The f**king idiot had just produced the video clip that will be the core of Labour's next General Election campaign against him. And he did it because he was visibly bristling at being put on the spot, and he verbally lashed out without thinking.
As I say, and as many who know him say, he is utterly unfit for Govt.
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He is far from perfect.
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Can anyone tell me one thing that Johnson believes in? One political vision that drives him? One principle that he holds to?
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Can anyone tell me one thing that Johnson believes in? One political vision that drives him? One principle that he holds to?
B-O-R-I-S
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What's the betting that if Boris continues to ignore questions about the row, or thinks he can try and billshut his way out of it, that a copy of the recording will be on social media in seconds flat?
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The Conservative Party have announced an enquiry to find out how a left wing couple could possibly afford to live in the same building as Boris and to see if they need to ramp up Austerity.
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I'm no fan of Boris that's for sure but really this is quite pathetic as far as I'm concerned..This forum is supposed to be about debate but it's become more like a tory lynching.
Here we have a bloke whose left wing remainer neighbour hates him with a passion..Who had a row with his misses (Frankly who hasn't).Now I haven't a problem that he was potentially concerned about her welfare (although in reality he couldn't give a toss probably).I also don't mind if he was concerned enough to call the Police to check (again in reality his eyes must have lit up).The Police arrived,checked the tape,spoke to the occupants and quickly found everything was fine and left..
Now here's where I do have a problem,in supposedly public interest he decided to send and give a interview to the Guardian..A left based paper that frankly I give as much consideration to as you lot give the Daily Mail..
None of you seem to mind that it was a fit up,yes they gave him the opportunity by having a row but that's no different than 99.9% of every other couple in this country occasionaly..He obviously planned this waiting for his opportunity..
None of you seem to even mention let alone condemn the left wing protesters who are camped on her front door waving banners,posting abusive posters on their windows,sending hate mail to his girlfriend which is to the level that she cant go home because she is scared too...
Is this the kind of Socialism you lot are advocating????
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The Conservative Party have announced an enquiry to find out how a left wing couple could possibly afford to live in the same building as Boris and to see if they need to ramp up Austerity.
Sydney they can afford to live there because his wife is the daughter of a self made American Millionaire who made his money in capitalism and composing who bought the house for them.So while she is a hard left socialist she's quite happy to live off the trappings of everything she supposedly hates..
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I'm no fan of Boris that's for sure but really this is quite pathetic as far as I'm concerned..This forum is supposed to be about debate but it's become more like a tory lynching.
Here we have a bloke whose left wing remainer neighbour hates him with a passion..Who had a row with his misses (Frankly who hasn't).Now I haven't a problem that he was potentially concerned about her welfare (although in reality he couldn't give a toss probably).I also don't mind if he was concerned enough to call the Police to check (again in reality his eyes must have lit up).The Police arrived,checked the tape,spoke to the occupants and quickly found everything was fine and left..
Now here's where I do have a problem,in supposedly public interest he decided to send and give a interview to the Guardian..A left based paper that frankly I give as much consideration to as you lot give the Daily Mail..
None of you seem to mind that it was a fit up,yes they gave him the opportunity by having a row but that's no different than 99.9% of every other couple in this country occasionaly..He obviously planned this waiting for his opportunity..
None of you seem to even mention let alone condemn the left wing protesters who are camped on her front door waving banners,posting abusive posters on their windows,sending hate mail to his girlfriend which is to the level that she cant go home because she is scared too...
Is this the kind of Socialism you lot are advocating????
That well-known bunch of lefties The Sun has a front page claiming that these rows have been a regular event. But I'm sure they're just being party political about it and we can ignore it. Just like their neighbours are expected to!
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The Conservative Party have announced an enquiry to find out how a left wing couple could possibly afford to live in the same building as Boris and to see if they need to ramp up Austerity.
''Sydney they can afford to live there because his wife is the daughter of a self made American Millionaire who made his money in capitalism and composing who bought the house for them.So while she is a hard left socialist she's quite happy to live off the trappings of everything she supposedly hates''
WC, I used humour because I'm totally appalled at the prospect of the conservative party even thinking of raising this moron to the position of PM even without this latest incident and the British press are not helping by portraying Johnson as a harmless buffoon instead of tearing him up because of his many flaws and failings. Normally I wouldn't give a flying xxxx what happens in the privacy of someone's home provided everyone is safe and not abused in any way, but ((and it's a large butt where Boris's concerned (sorry more humour)) this extremely poor example of a politician has every chance of being the PM and therefore everything he does has done is up for scrutiny and should be examined in the most rigorous way. As far as this forum being about debate it still is and we all get a bit pissed about what people post, take a look at what's being written on the football side of it at present.
To blame those that rang the police because of their concern is on the verge of victim blaming, it's Boris that needs to account for his behaviour.
The Guardian maybe too left wing for you but for accuracy and accountability for what it prints I would back it against and of the others and especially the yellow press.
I hope you can see beyond this thread and appreciate that it's just a forum where people express their ideas and debate what they are passionate about, what is said on the forum should stay here and not affect relationships outside of it.
Hunt is t**t too.
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I'm no fan of Boris that's for sure but really this is quite pathetic as far as I'm concerned..This forum is supposed to be about debate but it's become more like a tory lynching.
Here we have a bloke whose left wing remainer neighbour hates him with a passion..Who had a row with his misses (Frankly who hasn't).Now I haven't a problem that he was potentially concerned about her welfare (although in reality he couldn't give a toss probably).I also don't mind if he was concerned enough to call the Police to check (again in reality his eyes must have lit up).The Police arrived,checked the tape,spoke to the occupants and quickly found everything was fine and left..
Now here's where I do have a problem,in supposedly public interest he decided to send and give a interview to the Guardian..A left based paper that frankly I give as much consideration to as you lot give the Daily Mail..
None of you seem to mind that it was a fit up,yes they gave him the opportunity by having a row but that's no different than 99.9% of every other couple in this country occasionaly..He obviously planned this waiting for his opportunity..
None of you seem to even mention let alone condemn the left wing protesters who are camped on her front door waving banners,posting abusive posters on their windows,sending hate mail to his girlfriend which is to the level that she cant go home because she is scared too...
Is this the kind of Socialism you lot are advocating????
That well-known bunch of lefties The Sun has a front page claiming that these rows have been a regular event. But I'm sure they're just being party political about it and we can ignore it. Just like their neighbours are expected to!
Here it is GW:
''TORY LOVE DRAMA Boris Johnson and Carrie Symonds had four explosive rows in six weeks — and nearly split up three weeks ago''
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I fully agree with you on the fact that Boris is not fit to lead this Country and I say that as a Tory..However it's the fact that he is incompetent and promises the world first and cant give give solid answers on how he is going to achieve any of it which is why I have that belief,not because he has had a row/rows with his girlfriend...
The one point I will disagree with you is "To blame those that rang the police because of their concern is on the verge of victim blaming, it's Boris that needs to account for his behaviour." That's not victim blaming..His wife has openly boasted on twitter of giving them the finger everytime she see's them walking down the street,they are not victims they planned everything to cause as much trouble as they could and frankly I find it hypocritical that they are now complaining about the abuse they are getting as well which is nothing compared to what their actions have caused others..
When I'm watching the Political hustings I want to hear him try and answer the questions that matter so he can dig his own hole..Not waste half of it talking about something like this,that nobody really cares about outside the socialist Left..
Obviously none of you want either Johnson or Hunt as the next PM as passionately as I don't want Corbyn's labour but we need to start getting back to making our choices on proper political reasoning.Everytime politicians see these type of story's have a effect it just encourages them to play dirtier and dirtier and I would say that if it was a Labour leadership candidate in this situation..
Our Politics is in a right state across all the mainstream party's,i want a strong Tory party and I want a strong Labour Party too..Right now we have neither..We all need to get back to core politics rather than chasing around on witch hunts trying to discredit people on there private lives..
I don't care whether Boris had a row with his girlfriend or whether Abbott had a mojito on a train,i don't care whether she was in a relationship with Corbyn and I'm not bothered whether anybody had a few joints when they were in there twenty's either...I only care on what there position is on our economy,on Brexit and how it can be achieved and how our nhs can be improved given the great institution that it is....
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If you had noisy rows going on next door, would you expect to just grin and bear it or would you call the police even just to get them to be quiet?
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If you had noisy rows going on next door, would you expect to just grin and bear it or would you call the police even just to get them to be quiet?
Oh for god sake I give up...
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Well said Wing Co. I too don't rate Johnson, or any other politician for that matter, but for people on here that claim to be intelligent, and then get taken in by a pair of champagne socialist liars, beggars belief.
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I fully agree with the WC. I think it absolutely disgraceful that the newspapers have invaded the private life of Boris and his girlfriend (former press secretary to the Tory Party). Imagine they go for a nice quiet, romantic break in the country over the weekend and some disgraceful paparazzi is there to catch them holding hands.
I am sure he, and everyone else who values privacy over public interest are going to be furious that these photos showing Johnson in a sympathetic light are now appearing on the front pages of many Tory supporting newspapers.
https://twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/1143101577701580800
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I fully agree with the WC. I think it absolutely disgraceful that the newspapers have invaded the private life of Boris and his girlfriend (former press secretary to the Tory Party). Imagine they go for a nice quiet, romantic break in the country over the weekend and some disgraceful paparazzi is there to catch them holding hands.
I am sure he, and everyone else who values privacy over public interest are going to be furious that these photos showing Johnson in a sympathetic light are now appearing on the front pages of many Tory supporting newspapers.
https://twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/1143101577701580800
As many have pointed out inthe replys to that tweet, his hair seems to have grown a few inches from Saturday to Sunday 😂😂😂
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Well said Wing Co. I too don't rate Johnson, or any other politician for that matter, but for people on here that claim to be intelligent, and then get taken in by a pair of champagne socialist liars, beggars belief.
What have they lied about?
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I'm no fan of Boris that's for sure but really this is quite pathetic as far as I'm concerned..This forum is supposed to be about debate but it's become more like a tory lynching.
Here we have a bloke whose left wing remainer neighbour hates him with a passion..Who had a row with his misses (Frankly who hasn't).Now I haven't a problem that he was potentially concerned about her welfare (although in reality he couldn't give a toss probably).I also don't mind if he was concerned enough to call the Police to check (again in reality his eyes must have lit up).The Police arrived,checked the tape,spoke to the occupants and quickly found everything was fine and left..
Now here's where I do have a problem,in supposedly public interest he decided to send and give a interview to the Guardian..A left based paper that frankly I give as much consideration to as you lot give the Daily Mail..
None of you seem to mind that it was a fit up,yes they gave him the opportunity by having a row but that's no different than 99.9% of every other couple in this country occasionaly..He obviously planned this waiting for his opportunity..
None of you seem to even mention let alone condemn the left wing protesters who are camped on her front door waving banners,posting abusive posters on their windows,sending hate mail to his girlfriend which is to the level that she cant go home because she is scared too...
Is this the kind of Socialism you lot are advocating????
That well-known bunch of lefties The Sun has a front page claiming that these rows have been a regular event. But I'm sure they're just being party political about it and we can ignore it. Just like their neighbours are expected to!
Here it is GW:
''TORY LOVE DRAMA Boris Johnson and Carrie Symonds had four explosive rows in six weeks — and nearly split up three weeks ago''
The point that people seem to be missing is - this is something that Boris can squash quite easily by acting Prime Ministerially using some well-chosen words and then everyone can move on. And he might even come out of it looking more statesmanlike.
Instead he's running away from the issue at every turn.
How quickly and how far will he run away when negotiations with the EU don't go his way? Or any of the other difficulties that a PM faces as part of their job?
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WC.
Don't you think that the fact that the person who shares her life with the next PM screams "You don't care about anything because you are spoilt" at him in the middle of the night, so loud that the neighbours can clearly hear it, is a window into his personality that the electorate should know about?
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"Woman scorned shouts nothing but the truth abuse at partner shock"
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Scorned?
I take it you missed the bit about her screaming "get off me" then?
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Yes, a pity really! I'd have made a small fortune running to the press!
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I guess you would if you were the sort of person who wanted paying for that...
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Yep, especially if I didn't like him anyway and opposed his politics.
You're not suggesting I'd be morally lacking in doing so are you?
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I'm suggesting you'd be morally lacking in wanting payment. Not in freely giving us an insight into the character of the PM.
Are you saying the fact that his partner screams at him that he's spoilt has doesn't care for anything is something the electorate shouldn't know about?
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What about if there was no financial gain from it (ha), but I did it because I didn't like him or his politics? Would I then be morally lacking?
Yes, I'm suggesting his private life regarding rows with his wife is f**k all to do with the electorate.
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Well what the f**k did you bring the issue of being paid to pass on the recordings for then?
Just after a row again? Help yourself. I'm on with work tonight.
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If you don't want a row, stop being wrong.
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Well said Wing Co. I too don't rate Johnson, or any other politician for that matter, but for people on here that claim to be intelligent, and then get taken in by a pair of champagne socialist liars, beggars belief.
What have they lied about?
Loud bangs, screaming, and a woman in distress that they allegedly were concerned about; so the Police investigate and find - nothing, absolutely nothing; everyone safe and everything normal.
All this from a left wing couple who apparently detest Johnson and his partner. You believe what you want; I know what I believe.
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Didn't they have a recording Steve?
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Didn't they have a recording Steve?
If they had, then surely the Police must have listened to it, and would have found nothing dark or dangerous, or why did they conclude that nothing was wrong?
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Didn't they have a recording Steve?
If they had, then surely the Police must have listened to it, and would have found nothing dark or dangerous, or why did they conclude that nothing was wrong?
Is that the same police that initially denied that there was any incident in the first place, until the press quoted them their own incident number?
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Didn't they have a recording Steve?
If they had, then surely the Police must have listened to it, and would have found nothing dark or dangerous, or why did they conclude that nothing was wrong?
Because...do I REALLY need to write this? Apparently I do...
Because a future PM can have character defects which are not illegal, but which the electorate might still want ot take into account when considering whether they want him to lead the country.
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Didn't they have a recording Steve?
If they had, then surely the Police must have listened to it, and would have found nothing dark or dangerous, or why did they conclude that nothing was wrong?
Because...do I REALLY need to write this? Apparently I do...
Because a future PM can have character defects which are not illegal, but which the electorate might still want ot take into account when considering whether they want him to lead the country.
I don't doubt for one minute the character defects of Johnson; I just doubt the motives of the neighbours when they say they were concerened for the welfare of the woman. I think there was something more ulterior going on.
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SS.
Your call.
Me, I know what I'd do if I heard a female voice from next door screaming "Get off me" and the sound of banging so hard it made my own house shake.
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Billy you are being very selective here with the above comment..i don't have a problem with the fact he banged on the door to check everything was fine or that he called the Police to check.
However lets be honest,these were a couple who were openly aggressive to them in public prior to this,Is giving them the middle finger everytime she saw them is that acceptable behaviour to you???it's no coincidence that she deleted all the numerous vile tweets soon after either..
Then of course there's the fact that he recorded it and sent it to the Guardian..A paper I might add that was at the forefront of crying foul during the phone tapping scandals championing the cause of people's privacy..
I don't accept your argument that the people need to know what she said..We've all had blazing rows with people were things were said in the heat of the moment most of which we don't mean..It wasn't long ago that the mail did a piece on Corbyn,he was trashed by people who used to work with him with various quotes on his behaviour towards others but that was just right wing scaremongering...
At the end of the day once again people will base their arguments and opinions on which way their political leanings lie..
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Absolutely spot on.
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Wing Co.
Several points.
1) I haven't seen that article about Corbyn. Can you pass me a link to it.
2) This is not remotely like phone tapping. Phone tapping was illegally accessing private communications. If you're screaming so loud that the neighbours can hear, by definition that is not private. A future PM might want to reflect on his self-control in matters such as this. The electorate might want to reflect on his ability to control himself.
3) There's a final, over-riding reason why it is correct for this to be in the public domain in the specific case of Boris Johnson. He is going to be our first celebrity PM. He has no political policies. He has no political philosophy. He doesn't stand for anything but himself and his career. He has carefully crafted his public persona o er the past twenty years by presenting himself as a loveable buffoon.
Now, if the British public want a loveable buffoon with zero political belief as PM, they are entitled to that. But as his ex-employer said graphically, that's not him. It's an act, designed to deceive. As Hastings said, "he is a more ruthless, and, frankly nastier person than the public realises." They have a right to see the other side of him.
Personally, I'd prefer political decisions were based on political philosophies and policies. But Johnson doesn't have any. He has chosen to make it about him and his persona. He can't complain that it's unfair to put the real persona before the public.
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Didn't they have a recording Steve?
If they had, then surely the Police must have listened to it, and would have found nothing dark or dangerous, or why did they conclude that nothing was wrong?
Because...do I REALLY need to write this? Apparently I do...
Because a future PM can have character defects which are not illegal, but which the electorate might still want ot take into account when considering whether they want him to lead the country.
I don't doubt for one minute the character defects of Johnson; I just doubt the motives of the neighbours when they say they were concerened for the welfare of the woman. I think there was something more ulterior going on.
Has it ever crossed your mind that the neighbours - for some strange, presumably selfish reason - don't want to have to sit in their own home and have to listen to the sounds of an apparently violent argument going on for an unknown length of time? Or that if they also have kids they wouldn't want them to have to endure it either - and not for the first time by all accounts? Would you want your family to have to go through that or would you want something doing about it?
Isn't that motive enough to want someone - anyone - to get them next door to shut up? And also reason enough to record - IN THEIR OWN HOME - what they having to listen to so they could evidence it for authorities to listen to?
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Billy you are being very selective here with the above comment..i don't have a problem with the fact he banged on the door to check everything was fine or that he called the Police to check.
However lets be honest,these were a couple who were openly aggressive to them in public prior to this,Is giving them the middle finger everytime she saw them is that acceptable behaviour to you???it's no coincidence that she deleted all the numerous vile tweets soon after either..
Then of course there's the fact that he recorded it and sent it to the Guardian..A paper I might add that was at the forefront of crying foul during the phone tapping scandals championing the cause of people's privacy..
I don't accept your argument that the people need to know what she said..We've all had blazing rows with people were things were said in the heat of the moment most of which we don't mean..It wasn't long ago that the mail did a piece on Corbyn,he was trashed by people who used to work with him with various quotes on his behaviour towards others but that was just right wing scaremongering...
At the end of the day once again people will base their arguments and opinions on which way their political leanings lie..
If Johnson wasn't such a knob there'd be nothing for the neighbours to give to the Guardian, would there?
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By the way, Johnson's current defence over not answering questions on the row is that he wants to protect his loved ones.
That's Johnson who so cares for his loved ones that he fathered a child with another woman when he was married. Got divorced. Moved in with the other woman and married her. Then had a string of affairs whilst married, one of which led to a second child, another one which led to an abortion and a miscarriage (the latter affair occurring while he was also f**king a third woman). It's the Johnson who, after all that, was finally divorced by his second wife for having an affair with the woman who now ends up screaming "Get off me" and "you don't care about anything" at him in the middle of the night.
He clearly believes wholeheartedly in protecting those he loves. Problem is, the only person he loves is himself.
See, Wing Co. This isn't just the occasional tiff that gets made up with breakfast in bed the next morning. It is a lifestyle.
As Max Hastings said, he is chaotically indisciplined and uncontrolled. This MATTERS when you're choosing a PM on nothing more than his personality.
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Glyn they didn't record it "IN THEIR OWN HOME" did they??? he recorded it pressed up against his Front door.. I take it while your heart bleeds for the terrible injustice they have suffered at hearing a ten minute argument, alternatively you obviously feel it's perfectly acceptable that previous to that whilst leaving their home they should have to put up with the abuse she has given them by proudly boasting of giving them the middle finger everytime she see's them...
Your hypocrisy knows no bounds...
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BST I have said before that I have no wish to see him become our PM.Probably as much as you don't..i'm questioning the direction this has taken and I'm tired of threads like this were the left amongst you want to use double standards to crucify people just because they are a Tory..I dare say if I went to town on the shadow cabinet,i could come up with just as many tales of infidelity..Infact didn't Corbyn himself commit adultery against his first wife with Diane Abbott???
If people want to debate Politics that's great,not a problem but if you are all trying to portray this couple as doing this for the good of the British public I'm not having it.They are every bit as nasty and vindictive as he is...
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Glyn they didn't record it "IN THEIR OWN HOME" did they??? he recorded it pressed up against his Front door.. I take it while your heart bleeds for the terrible injustice they have suffered at hearing a ten minute argument, alternatively you obviously feel it's perfectly acceptable that previous to that whilst leaving their home they should have to put up with the abuse she has given them by proudly boasting of giving them the middle finger everytime she see's them...
Your hypocrisy knows no bounds...
They live in the same building, don't they? They must have been able to hear it to know that there was a row going on!
My heart bleeds for anyone subjected to having to listen to neighbours arguing loudly, without warning and carrying on indefinitely as it's something I once had to suffer myself for several months. It shreds your nerves, badly. I even had to call the police myself when it once spilled out onto the pavement right outside my window and one was threatening the other with a knife.
Nowhere have I said that any abuse is acceptable, so you can take your crap extrapolation based solely on your idea of 'obviously' and shove your accusation of hypocrisy back in the orifice it came from.
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Wing Co
My point 3 above.
Johnson has no politics to debate. He makes it all about him. That's the entire point. You cannot debate politics with him because there is nothing to debate.
He has chosen to build his career on crafting a persona. The public, therefore,has a right to be informed about his persona. You live by the sword, you die by the sword.
And as I keep saying, this isn't just a criticism from the Left. Read what his very right wing employer for a decade said about him.
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Same to you sunshine!!!
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Glyn they didn't record it "IN THEIR OWN HOME" did they??? he recorded it pressed up against his Front door.. I take it while your heart bleeds for the terrible injustice they have suffered at hearing a ten minute argument, alternatively you obviously feel it's perfectly acceptable that previous to that whilst leaving their home they should have to put up with the abuse she has given them by proudly boasting of giving them the middle finger everytime she see's them...
Your hypocrisy knows no bounds...
They live in the same building, don't they? They must have been able to hear it to know that there was a row going on!
My heart bleeds for anyone subjected to having to listen to neighbours arguing loudly, without warning and carrying on indefinitely as it's something I once had to suffer myself for several months. It shreds your nerves, badly. I even had to call the police myself when it once spilled out onto the pavement right outside my window and one was threatening the other with a knife.
Nowhere have I said that any abuse is acceptable, so you can take your crap extrapolation based solely on your idea of 'obviously' and shove your accusation of hypocrisy back in the orifice it came from.
Apparently the row was so loud the neighbours were going to ring Mark Field to come and separate them!
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And here we go again on the subject of Johnson and trustworthiness.
Have a look at the video here from last year.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/22/video-reveals-steve-bannon-links-to-boris-johnson
Then look at the video here from today.
https://mobile.twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1143475744561139712
So there's the next PM lying through his teeth about an established fact, when put on the spot. Happy days eh? Of course, 20 years of the media softening people up by telling them that every politcian lies means that some folk on here won't give a shit. And they'll then lecture us about the sanctity of democracy, while this cheat and liar is in No10.
Oh. Little incidental issue. Carole Cadwalladr is the journalist who has been uncovering the links between Farage, Banks Bannon and Russia. She's now showing the links between Trump and Bannon.
She's had a shit heap of abuse thrown at here, including the Russian Foreign Office tweeting a video showing someone "jokingly" threatening her with a gun. Arron Banks and the Guido website have led the abuse,calling her Carole Codswallop. Interesting choice of words by Boris. Twice. Surely, you don't think he might be in cahoots with Banks and Farage? Surely not?
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Boris is truly magic. The only guy I know who can have short hair one day, long hair the very next, and then short hair the day after that!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYM_1tRztDc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjYAb8IGGxc
Lies by photograph from the clown now! Ye gods, what is this country coming to?
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That's the thing NNK.
He's not even any f**king good at lying. But the idiots who support him do not care. They are dumbly and numbly allowing him to normalise the destruction of objective truth in politics.
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BST and Glyn Wigley
This is all about belief and perspective and where you're coming from. You're both Guardian reading lefties who are so blinkered that you refuse to acknowledge that there are always two sides to an argument.
Me? I'm a non- newspaper reader who voted Brexit, with no affiliation to any political party, and no trust in any of the politicians in Westminster.
This is probably why I'm not naive enough to believe that those two were genuinely concerned about their neighbour's welfare.
-
BST and Glyn Wigley
This is all about belief and perspective and where you're coming from. You're both Guardian reading lefties who are so blinkered that you refuse to acknowledge that there are always two sides to an argument.
Me? I'm a non- newspaper reader who voted Brexit, with no affiliation to any political party, and no trust in any of the politicians in Westminster.
This is probably why I'm not naive enough to believe that those two were genuinely concerned about their neighbour's welfare.
I've never read the Guardian, smartarse.
What's the other side to the argument here...that Boris didn't have a row with his girlfriend?
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The other side of the argument is it's none of your business.
-
The other side of the argument is it's none of your business.
When it goes outside of their own four walls and public money is spent on the police attending, it becomes a public matter whether you believe it should or not.
-
BST and Glyn Wigley
This is all about belief and perspective and where you're coming from. You're both Guardian reading lefties who are so blinkered that you refuse to acknowledge that there are always two sides to an argument.
Me? I'm a non- newspaper reader who voted Brexit, with no affiliation to any political party, and no trust in any of the politicians in Westminster.
This is probably why I'm not naive enough to believe that those two were genuinely concerned about their neighbour's welfare.
There might be two sides to an argument Steve - but there is always only one set of facts. How you might want to interpret those facts might differ - but the facts are still the facts.
A man who would be PM had an argument with his girlfriend that was so loud the neighbours were able to hear it and tape it. They were so concerned about what they heard that the police were called. The police had no problem with the taping (or anyone else taping a domestic violence incident) as if this were deemed a serious incident it would be useful as evidence. Thankfully it wasn't.
If he is prepared to act like that during a campaign to be PM - what else is he prepared to do and say? What other situations might he put himself in? Who else might be taping him?
Do you believe his explanations about the incident? Do you believe his explanations about the mysterious photo? If you do, please explain why, if you don't why do you believe he will sort out Brexit when he is unable to say what his plan is?
You can have your belief and I can have mine and I can say with certainty one of us is going to be badly wrong. I haven't yet seen or read anything to convince me it will be me.
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The other side of the argument is it's none of your business.
When it goes outside of their own four walls and public money is spent on the police attending, it becomes a public matter whether you believe it should or not.
But that side of it wasn't their doing, was it! It was the neighbours who didn't like him or his politics that did that. you know, the type of good neighbours who would not only do such a good thing in the name of being good neighbourly but would also contact the Guardian for them to have a w**k over, and then share with their readers to have a w**k over.
Political porno at its best!
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That's the thing NNK.
He's not even any f**king good at lying. But the idiots who support him do not care. They are dumbly and numbly allowing him to normalise the destruction of objective truth in politics.
I bet they'll approve of his hobby too BST.
https://twitter.com/rosskempsell/status/1143491303466053633
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It wasn't long ago that the mail did a piece on Corbyn,he was trashed by people who used to work with him with various quotes on his behaviour towards others but that was just right wing scaremongering...
At the end of the day once again people will base their arguments and opinions on which way their political leanings lie..
I believe the piece WC is referring to is the book about Corbyn that the DM serialised earlier this year.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/books/article-6758101/Corbyn-manage-finances-let-Britains.html
We had a thread on it
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=269013.0
I don't believe there was anything at all about his behaviour towards others, unless you call eating cold baked beans and loosing his house because he supported a community centre that, but WC can direct us to something as he made the allegation?
Be careful however because it has been called 'not just intellectually dishonest, it is a farrago of falsehood and insinuation' by that noted leftie Peter Oborne in his review of it.
https://twitter.com/OborneTweets/status/1104370890203164673
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth
So yes I think you have proved your final point there. An actual tape of an actual incident is the same as a badly written book that doesn't even have the type of information in it that you claim it has if that is the way your political leanings lie.
As that other noted leftie Max Hastings said in his piece this week talking about Johnson being unfit to be Prime Minister
'There is, of course, a symmetry between himself (Johnson) and Jeremy Corbyn. Corbyn is far more honest'
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/24/boris-johnson-prime-minister-tory-party-britain
Thats not me saying that. Thats the former editor of the Daily Telegraph.
-
BST and Glyn Wigley
This is all about belief and perspective and where you're coming from. You're both Guardian reading lefties who are so blinkered that you refuse to acknowledge that there are always two sides to an argument.
Me? I'm a non- newspaper reader who voted Brexit, with no affiliation to any political party, and no trust in any of the politicians in Westminster.
This is probably why I'm not naive enough to believe that those two were genuinely concerned about their neighbour's welfare.
There might be two sides to an argument Steve - but there is always only one set of facts. How you might want to interpret those facts might differ - but the facts are still the facts.
A man who would be PM had an argument with his girlfriend that was so loud the neighbours were able to hear it and tape it. They were so concerned about what they heard that the police were called. The police had no problem with the taping (or anyone else taping a domestic violence incident) as if this were deemed a serious incident it would be useful as evidence. Thankfully it wasn't.
If he is prepared to act like that during a campaign to be PM - what else is he prepared to do and say? What other situations might he put himself in? Who else might be taping him?
Do you believe his explanations about the incident? Do you believe his explanations about the mysterious photo? If you do, please explain why, if you don't why do you believe he will sort out Brexit when he is unable to say what his plan is?
You can have your belief and I can have mine and I can say with certainty one of us is going to be badly wrong. I haven't yet seen or read anything to convince me it will be me.
Wilts, I like most of your posts; they're certainly less biased than many of the lefty posts on here, but you're wrong in suggesting that I'm a Johnson supporter. I've made it clear in previous posts that I don't rate him, or anyone else in Westminster. I've also said in other posts that I don't believe Brexit will ever be delivered by anyone. Parliament simply doesn't want it.
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Sorry Steve, I misinterpreted your earlier posts and thought you did believe him etc. Thanks for clearing that up.
As for your conclusion, well something has to happen, but I guess we will have plenty more opportunity to discuss that over the coming weeks.
-
It wasn't long ago that the mail did a piece on Corbyn,he was trashed by people who used to work with him with various quotes on his behaviour towards others but that was just right wing scaremongering...
At the end of the day once again people will base their arguments and opinions on which way their political leanings lie..
I believe the piece WC is referring to is the book about Corbyn that the DM serialised earlier this year.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/books/article-6758101/Corbyn-manage-finances-let-Britains.html
We had a thread on it
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=269013.0
I don't believe there was anything at all about his behaviour towards others, unless you call eating cold baked beans and loosing his house because he supported a community centre that, but WC can direct us to something as he made the allegation?
Be careful however because it has been called 'not just intellectually dishonest, it is a farrago of falsehood and insinuation' by that noted leftie Peter Oborne in his review of it.
https://twitter.com/OborneTweets/status/1104370890203164673
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth
So yes I think you have proved your final point there. An actual tape of an actual incident is the same as a badly written book that doesn't even have the type of information in it that you claim it has if that is the way your political leanings lie.
As that other noted leftie Max Hastings said in his piece this week talking about Johnson being unfit to be Prime Minister
'There is, of course, a symmetry between himself (Johnson) and Jeremy Corbyn. Corbyn is far more honest'
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/24/boris-johnson-prime-minister-tory-party-britain
Thats not me saying that. Thats the former editor of the Daily Telegraph.
Eating cold beans? He probably ignored the vegetarian Lasagne in the fridge in the same way he was oblivious to the empty seats when he sat on the floor in that train carriage.
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Steve, I voted Brexit as well but I haven't seen anyone in three years that have seemed capable of delivering anything tangible at all. There has never been a policy as such.
The frightening thing is I am more scared of our inept politicians than I am of the EU.
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Please let this be the last post on whether or not the neighbours were right to do what they did.
Britain's most senior police officer has said it was important for members of the public to report incidents when worried about someone’s welfare and that recordings of such incidents could be helpful for potential police investigations.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/25/cressida-dick-defends-neighbours-boris-johnson-recording
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Yep, if you think there is potential violence occurring in your neighbour's house, call the police.
Then ring the Guardian.
-
It wasn't long ago that the mail did a piece on Corbyn,he was trashed by people who used to work with him with various quotes on his behaviour towards others but that was just right wing scaremongering...
At the end of the day once again people will base their arguments and opinions on which way their political leanings lie..
I believe the piece WC is referring to is the book about Corbyn that the DM serialised earlier this year.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/books/article-6758101/Corbyn-manage-finances-let-Britains.html
We had a thread on it
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=269013.0
I don't believe there was anything at all about his behaviour towards others, unless you call eating cold baked beans and loosing his house because he supported a community centre that, but WC can direct us to something as he made the allegation?
Be careful however because it has been called 'not just intellectually dishonest, it is a farrago of falsehood and insinuation' by that noted leftie Peter Oborne in his review of it.
https://twitter.com/OborneTweets/status/1104370890203164673
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth
So yes I think you have proved your final point there. An actual tape of an actual incident is the same as a badly written book that doesn't even have the type of information in it that you claim it has if that is the way your political leanings lie.
As that other noted leftie Max Hastings said in his piece this week talking about Johnson being unfit to be Prime Minister
'There is, of course, a symmetry between himself (Johnson) and Jeremy Corbyn. Corbyn is far more honest'
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/24/boris-johnson-prime-minister-tory-party-britain
Thats not me saying that. Thats the former editor of the Daily Telegraph.
Eating cold beans? He probably ignored the vegetarian Lasagne in the fridge in the same way he was oblivious to the empty seats when he sat on the floor in that train carriage.
I can just imagine the scene in your house when you suggest to Mrs BB that you have cold lasgne from the fridge for tea - you will probably be wearing it!
Is that the time he sat on the floor on the Virgin train and Branson released a docotored video that showed empty seats and only released the full video that showed Corbyn was correct 7 months later, or a different one?
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/virgin-release-traingate-footage-proves-corbyn-told-truth-traingate/23/08/
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Mind you, I'm going to have to go all lefty here. The railways definitely need nationalising. The amount of delays I've suffered on trains over the last few years has been horrendous.
-
It wasn't long ago that the mail did a piece on Corbyn,he was trashed by people who used to work with him with various quotes on his behaviour towards others but that was just right wing scaremongering...
At the end of the day once again people will base their arguments and opinions on which way their political leanings lie..
I believe the piece WC is referring to is the book about Corbyn that the DM serialised earlier this year.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/books/article-6758101/Corbyn-manage-finances-let-Britains.html
We had a thread on it
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=269013.0
I don't believe there was anything at all about his behaviour towards others, unless you call eating cold baked beans and loosing his house because he supported a community centre that, but WC can direct us to something as he made the allegation?
Be careful however because it has been called 'not just intellectually dishonest, it is a farrago of falsehood and insinuation' by that noted leftie Peter Oborne in his review of it.
https://twitter.com/OborneTweets/status/1104370890203164673
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth
So yes I think you have proved your final point there. An actual tape of an actual incident is the same as a badly written book that doesn't even have the type of information in it that you claim it has if that is the way your political leanings lie.
As that other noted leftie Max Hastings said in his piece this week talking about Johnson being unfit to be Prime Minister
'There is, of course, a symmetry between himself (Johnson) and Jeremy Corbyn. Corbyn is far more honest'
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/24/boris-johnson-prime-minister-tory-party-britain
Thats not me saying that. Thats the former editor of the Daily Telegraph.
Eating cold beans? He probably ignored the vegetarian Lasagne in the fridge in the same way he was oblivious to the empty seats when he sat on the floor in that train carriage.
I can just imagine the scene in your house when you suggest to Mrs BB that you have cold lasgne from the fridge for tea - you will probably be wearing it!
Is that the time he sat on the floor on the Virgin train and Branson released a docotored video that showed empty seats and only released the full video that showed Corbyn was correct 7 months later, or a different one?
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/virgin-release-traingate-footage-proves-corbyn-told-truth-traingate/23/08/
If I got a cold Lasagne from our lass I'd shout and curse at her until the police called. Then I'd read all about it in the Guardian the next day.
Yes, that's the one, Mr Wilts. The one where he was offered a first-class seat by the train manager instead of sitting on the floor but refused in order to gain a little bit of martyrdom.
Eh, Mother Theresa eat your heart out!
-
The other side of the argument is it's none of your business.
When it goes outside of their own four walls and public money is spent on the police attending, it becomes a public matter whether you believe it should or not.
But that side of it wasn't their doing, was it! It was the neighbours who didn't like him or his politics that did that. you know, the type of good neighbours who would not only do such a good thing in the name of being good neighbourly but would also contact the Guardian for them to have a w**k over, and then share with their readers to have a w**k over.
Political porno at its best!
Of course it was their doing. Or are you now going to argue in your usual ridiculous fashion that the cops would have been knocking on their door if they hadn't been rowing so loudly that the neighbours could hear it? Their actions. The consequences are theirs too.
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Yep, if you think there is potential violence occurring in your neighbour's house, call the police.
Then ring the Guardian.
You're sure the Guardian wasn't rung by a copper?
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Mr Wiggerley, You know the saying you are what you eat, have you got a fruitcake addiction?
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Bentley b*llocks, I see you've taking lessons from Boris on not answering questions and waffling on about something else instead. Or have you been teaching been him? His waffle bears all your hallmarks.
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Mr Wiggerley, when people read your previous two posts they will see how silly they are, even by your standards.
Cut down on the fruitcake owd lad.
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I can see an alternative headline, "bloke has row with missus, shocker!!"
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SS
You're right. I do read The Guardian. Bits of it.
I also read bits of the Independent, Times, Telegraph, FT, Economist, New Statesman, Washington Post, New York Times, La Repubblica and Breitbart.
I read widely because I'm interested in hearing as many sides to a story as I can find, then making my own mind up.
What do YOU do?
Anyway. You feel free to stick to that childish "Guardian-reading lefty" jibe if it makes you feel better.
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The problem isn't how many papers you read of various opinions, or even how clever and convincing you are at expressing your own take on them. It's definitely not about using that skill to convince yourself and others that you are right when you are not.
This thread is a prime example of that. Using a private domestic matter that wasn't even extreme enough for the police to make an arrest should in no way hit the headlines, and only does, of course, if there are ulterior motives.
-
The problem isn't how many papers you read of various opinions, or even how clever and convincing you are at expressing your own take on them. It's definitely not about using that skill to convince yourself and others that you are right when you are not.
This thread is a prime example of that. Using a private domestic matter that wasn't even extreme enough for the police to make an arrest should in no way hit the headlines, and only does, of course, if there are ulterior motives.
To show the countryIt wasn't long ago that the mail did a piece on Corbyn,he was trashed by people who used to work with him with various quotes on his behaviour towards others but that was just right wing scaremongering...
At the end of the day once again people will base their arguments and opinions on which way their political leanings lie..
I believe the piece WC is referring to is the book about Corbyn that the DM serialised earlier this year.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/books/article-6758101/Corbyn-manage-finances-let-Britains.html
We had a thread on it
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=269013.0
I don't believe there was anything at all about his behaviour towards others, unless you call eating cold baked beans and loosing his house because he supported a community centre that, but WC can direct us to something as he made the allegation?
Be careful however because it has been called 'not just intellectually dishonest, it is a farrago of falsehood and insinuation' by that noted leftie Peter Oborne in his review of it.
https://twitter.com/OborneTweets/status/1104370890203164673
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth
So yes I think you have proved your final point there. An actual tape of an actual incident is the same as a badly written book that doesn't even have the type of information in it that you claim it has if that is the way your political leanings lie.
As that other noted leftie Max Hastings said in his piece this week talking about Johnson being unfit to be Prime Minister
'There is, of course, a symmetry between himself (Johnson) and Jeremy Corbyn. Corbyn is far more honest'
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/24/boris-johnson-prime-minister-tory-party-britain
Thats not me saying that. Thats the former editor of the Daily Telegraph.
Eating cold beans? He probably ignored the vegetarian Lasagne in the fridge in the same way he was oblivious to the empty seats when he sat on the floor in that train carriage.
I can just imagine the scene in your house when you suggest to Mrs BB that you have cold lasgne from the fridge for tea - you will probably be wearing it!
Is that the time he sat on the floor on the Virgin train and Branson released a docotored video that showed empty seats and only released the full video that showed Corbyn was correct 7 months later, or a different one?
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/virgin-release-traingate-footage-proves-corbyn-told-truth-traingate/23/08/
If I got a cold Lasagne from our lass I'd shout and curse at her until the police called. Then I'd read all about it in the Guardian the next day.
Yes, that's the one, Mr Wilts. The one where he was offered a first-class seat by the train manager instead of sitting on the floor but refused in order to gain a little bit of martyrdom.
Eh, Mother Theresa eat your heart out!
But you said in your earlier post that there were empty seats he was oblivious too? Which is what Richard Branson claimed at the time - until he was forced to release an undoctored version of the CCTV that showed there weren't any.
It doesn't need Mother Teresa to judge who is being truthful here Mr Bentley. And it ain't you.
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BB
Point 3 in this post.
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=272636.msg875555#msg875555
What do you disagree with about that? And remember, it's not ME saying that Johnson believes in nothing but his own image management, and isn't the loveable buffoon he projects, but a ruthless and nasty man. Not me. It;s his old employer of ten years and Tory grandee, Max Hastings.
So, if Johnson has courted public opinion by presenting a very specific side of himself, surely the population has the right to see the other side?
Or do you think the unpleasant side should be kept hidden from the population?
-
The problem isn't how many papers you read of various opinions, or even how clever and convincing you are at expressing your own take on them. It's definitely not about using that skill to convince yourself and others that you are right when you are not.
This thread is a prime example of that. Using a private domestic matter that wasn't even extreme enough for the police to make an arrest should in no way hit the headlines, and only does, of course, if there are ulterior motives.
To show the countryIt wasn't long ago that the mail did a piece on Corbyn,he was trashed by people who used to work with him with various quotes on his behaviour towards others but that was just right wing scaremongering...
At the end of the day once again people will base their arguments and opinions on which way their political leanings lie..
I believe the piece WC is referring to is the book about Corbyn that the DM serialised earlier this year.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/books/article-6758101/Corbyn-manage-finances-let-Britains.html
We had a thread on it
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=269013.0
I don't believe there was anything at all about his behaviour towards others, unless you call eating cold baked beans and loosing his house because he supported a community centre that, but WC can direct us to something as he made the allegation?
Be careful however because it has been called 'not just intellectually dishonest, it is a farrago of falsehood and insinuation' by that noted leftie Peter Oborne in his review of it.
https://twitter.com/OborneTweets/status/1104370890203164673
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth
So yes I think you have proved your final point there. An actual tape of an actual incident is the same as a badly written book that doesn't even have the type of information in it that you claim it has if that is the way your political leanings lie.
As that other noted leftie Max Hastings said in his piece this week talking about Johnson being unfit to be Prime Minister
'There is, of course, a symmetry between himself (Johnson) and Jeremy Corbyn. Corbyn is far more honest'
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/24/boris-johnson-prime-minister-tory-party-britain
Thats not me saying that. Thats the former editor of the Daily Telegraph.
Eating cold beans? He probably ignored the vegetarian Lasagne in the fridge in the same way he was oblivious to the empty seats when he sat on the floor in that train carriage.
I can just imagine the scene in your house when you suggest to Mrs BB that you have cold lasgne from the fridge for tea - you will probably be wearing it!
Is that the time he sat on the floor on the Virgin train and Branson released a docotored video that showed empty seats and only released the full video that showed Corbyn was correct 7 months later, or a different one?
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/virgin-release-traingate-footage-proves-corbyn-told-truth-traingate/23/08/
If I got a cold Lasagne from our lass I'd shout and curse at her until the police called. Then I'd read all about it in the Guardian the next day.
Yes, that's the one, Mr Wilts. The one where he was offered a first-class seat by the train manager instead of sitting on the floor but refused in order to gain a little bit of martyrdom.
Eh, Mother Theresa eat your heart out!
But you said in your earlier post that there were empty seats he was oblivious too? Which is what Richard Branson claimed at the time - until he was forced to release an undoctored version of the CCTV that showed there weren't any.
It doesn't need Mother Teresa to judge who is being truthful here Mr Bentley. And it ain't you.
Now don't be silly Mr Wilts. There were empty seats on the train in the first class area. Corbyn was offered said first class seat for the price of second class, which he refused.
-
BB
Point 3 in this post.
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=272636.msg875555#msg875555
What do you disagree with about that? And remember, it's not ME saying that Johnson believes in nothing but his own image management, and isn't the loveable buffoon he projects, but a ruthless and nasty man. Not me. It;s his old employer of ten years and Tory grandee, Max Hastings.
So, if Johnson has courted public opinion by presenting a very specific side of himself, surely the population has the right to see the other side?
Or do you think the unpleasant side should be kept hidden from the population?
I believe if he is the first choice in an election, he should win said election.
-
BB
Lord knows I'm no fan of Corbyn, and I had my own criticisms of him over that issue, but you are once again, entirely missing the point.
Corbyn was offered a first class seat because he is Jeremy Corbyn. He's a politician. Who could highlight the f**king mess of privatised rail companies. You or I or anyone else would not have been offered a first class seat. We'd have been told to sit outside the shitters on the floor. D'oh!
Corbyn wishes to highlight the state of our trains, and I'm struggling to think of more than 1 person in 100 who would disagree with him on that. If he'd said the the Virgin train staff, thanks very much for giving me a free first class seat because I am Jeremy Corbyn, he would have been a hypocrite. And I know how high your moral standards are, so I assume you wouldn't want him to be a hypocrite.
-
BB
Point 3 in this post.
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=272636.msg875555#msg875555
What do you disagree with about that? And remember, it's not ME saying that Johnson believes in nothing but his own image management, and isn't the loveable buffoon he projects, but a ruthless and nasty man. Not me. It;s his old employer of ten years and Tory grandee, Max Hastings.
So, if Johnson has courted public opinion by presenting a very specific side of himself, surely the population has the right to see the other side?
Or do you think the unpleasant side should be kept hidden from the population?
I believe if he is the first choice in an election, he should win said election.
You have a playground approach to democracy. You seem to be getting more childish the older you get. Ignore the core of a discussions and just make smart-arse quips. Presumably you would have had no issue with the result of the 1933 German election and you'd have complained about anyone who questioned the morals of the winner.
Because hey! He won didn't he? The losers should just slink off and suck it up.
-
BB
Lord knows I'm no fan of Corbyn, and I had my own criticisms of him over that issue, but you are once again, entirely missing the point.
Corbyn was offered a first class seat because he is Jeremy Corbyn. He's a politician. Who could highlight the f**king mess of privatised rail companies. You or I or anyone else would not have been offered a first class seat. We'd have been told to sit outside the shitters on the floor. D'oh!
Corbyn wishes to highlight the state of our trains, and I'm struggling to think of more than 1 person in 100 who would disagree with him on that. If he'd said the the Virgin train staff, thanks very much for giving me a free first class seat because I am Jeremy Corbyn, he would have been a hypocrite. And I know how high your moral standards are, so I assume you wouldn't want him to be a hypocrite.
So what? Like I said it was staged! Hardly makes him Mother Theresa in the sacrifice stakes, does it!
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BB
Point 3 in this post.
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=272636.msg875555#msg875555
What do you disagree with about that? And remember, it's not ME saying that Johnson believes in nothing but his own image management, and isn't the loveable buffoon he projects, but a ruthless and nasty man. Not me. It;s his old employer of ten years and Tory grandee, Max Hastings.
So, if Johnson has courted public opinion by presenting a very specific side of himself, surely the population has the right to see the other side?
Or do you think the unpleasant side should be kept hidden from the population?
I believe if he is the first choice in an election, he should win said election.
You have a playground approach to democracy. You seem to be getting more childish the older you get. Ignore the core of a discussions and just make smart-arse quips. Presumably you would have had no issue with the result of the 1933 German election and you'd have complained about anyone who questioned the morals of the winner.
Because hey! He won didn't he? The losers should just slink off and suck it up.
So what's the alternative, Billy lad? Shall we just ignore the results of votes and just do what you say?
-
1975 United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum
Yes: 17,378,581 67.23%
No: 8,470,073 32.77%
Looks like this vote has more validity with more than 2:1 voting for.
Whereas here it would take only 2% to change their minds, which is less than the margin for error.
17,410,742 51.89%
16,141,241 48.11%
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Interesting read.
https://reaction.life/jeremy-vine-my-boris-story/?fbclid=IwAR2mKA5e5MkB0YUpNNPOcIHMm9yo_My0D-1SlXGV7tOJIO_1J7rUCqG2UtQ
I say "interesting". I mean "terrifying". It gives a tiny clue into the way that our future PM has played the gallery.
Read it. Right to the end. And I challenge you not to be profoundly depressed at the journey we're now embarking on.
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I rarely listen to Jeremy Vine but somehow managed to catch his show today when he was interviewing Jeremy Hunt. The same Jeremy Hunt who has being saying to everyone who would listen (which to be honest is not that many) that his main qualification for being the next PM is that he is an entrepeneur - who then got right ratty when Vine said he had made a bit of money out of it!
Really strange encounter - from the other man who claims to be able to negotiate Brexit
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-hunt-entrepreneur-jeremy-vine-boris-johnson-tory-leadership-contest-a8976146.html
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Grant McCann to be the next PM. He's got the right amount of honesty and integrity.
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That's the thing NNK.
He's not even any f**king good at lying. But the idiots who support him do not care. They are dumbly and numbly allowing him to normalise the destruction of objective truth in politics.
I bet they'll approve of his hobby too BST.
https://twitter.com/rosskempsell/status/1143491303466053633
NNK
I was laughing at that batshit interview yesterday, along with a lot of other people.
Thing is. Johnson never does anything related to his ambition or image without a plan.
https://mobile.twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1143960713028874240
Not so batshit now, is it?
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That's the thing NNK.
He's not even any f**king good at lying. But the idiots who support him do not care. They are dumbly and numbly allowing him to normalise the destruction of objective truth in politics.
I bet they'll approve of his hobby too BST.
https://twitter.com/rosskempsell/status/1143491303466053633
NNK
I was laughing at that batshit interview yesterday, along with a lot of other people.
Thing is. Johnson never does anything related to his ambition or image without a plan.
https://mobile.twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1143960713028874240
Not so batshit now, is it?
Oh, I'm not so sure BST, he was far more direct here
(https://i.imgur.com/bo95g6P.jpg)
Much harder to hide behind something as direct as that! No alternative interpretation! Though the Brexit gullible will still lap it up!
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NNK
Yes. But the point is that NOW, when you Google Boris Johnson Bus, you get link after link of him being his usual buffoonish self talking about painting crates. What you DON'T get is the links of him peddling the £350m lie.
That's how Lynton Crosby operates.
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NNK
Yes. But the point is that NOW, when you Google Boris Johnson Bus, you get link after link of him being his usual buffoonish self talking about painting crates. What you DON'T get is the links of him peddling the £350m lie.
That's how Lynton Crosby operates.
Throwing a dead cat on the table
-
I heard Curiosity killed it, but the Guardian tried to blame Boris.
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No. Far more sophisticated than that. Manipulating the message.
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Do you mean like manipulating the message to every household in the country?
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No BB. I don't.
Stick to the 40 year past their sell-by date jokes. You're much more entertaining then.
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Better being a has been than a never has been owd lad.
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Wouldn't think that Boris the tories would sue Verhofstadt for using all these terms that portray him as fraudulent and liar about their man in government?
''Brussels has sounded a warning that Boris Johnson’s familiar use of “false promises, pseudo-patriotism and foreigner-bashing” to win the keys to Downing Street is locking Britain into a no-deal Brexit.
In a withering attack on the Conservative leadership frontrunner, Guy Verhofstadt dismissed the idea that he could dump Theresa May’s withdrawal agreement, withhold payment of the UK’s £39bn divorce bill and still negotiate a free-trade deal in Brussels as a “myth”. And he said that, years after the referendum, Johnson was “a man who continues to dissemble, exaggerate and disinform”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/27/boris-johnson-brexit-deal-claims-rubbished-guy-verhofstadt
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Caroline Flint
-
Sweet f**king Jesus.
THIS. From Michael Gove's wife.
https://mobile.twitter.com/WestminsterWAG/status/1143978097924018176
They haven't got a f**king clue, have they?
"Oh! Oh! I never realised my husband's Government were actually f**king over the lives of REAL vulnerable people! Why isn't someone stopping it?"
And she then f**king TWEETS about it. Instead of asking her husband where his f**king soul is.
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Sweet f**king Jesus.
THIS. From Michael Gove's wife.
https://mobile.twitter.com/WestminsterWAG/status/1143978097924018176
They haven't got a f**king clue, have they?
"Oh! Oh! I never realised my husband's Government were actually f**king over the lives of REAL vulnerable people! Why isn't someone stopping it?"
And she then f**king TWEETS about it. Instead of asking her husband where his f**king soul is.
Just as well we are going to get the caring and sharing Boris then BST?
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Boris has an inverse square relationship with common sense and his age, the bbc have not covered themselves in glory either.
Of course we've all seen him before
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nULFMp4jKBo
BBC censored Boris's insult to the French: Would-be PM called nation 'turds' over Brexit in documentary when he was Foreign Secretary - but producers axed jibe amid diplomatic pressure
EXCLUSIVE : Crude remark supposed to feature in fly-on-wall TV documentary
But the Foreign Office successfully begged for it to be cut, according to insiders
The claim is corroborated by a leaked Whitehall memo seen by the Mail
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7190081/BBC-censored-Boriss-insult-French.html
Calling the French ‘turds’ shows Boris Johnson is the eternal spoilt 15-year-old
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/28/calling-french-turds-boris-johnson-prime-minister-empire
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Boris has an inverse square relationship with common sense and his age, the bbc have not covered themselves in glory either.
Of course we've all seen him before
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nULFMp4jKBo
BBC censored Boris's insult to the French: Would-be PM called nation 'turds' over Brexit in documentary when he was Foreign Secretary - but producers axed jibe amid diplomatic pressure
EXCLUSIVE : Crude remark supposed to feature in fly-on-wall TV documentary
But the Foreign Office successfully begged for it to be cut, according to insiders
The claim is corroborated by a leaked Whitehall memo seen by the Mail
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7190081/BBC-censored-Boriss-insult-French.html
Calling the French ‘turds’ shows Boris Johnson is the eternal spoilt 15-year-old
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/28/calling-french-turds-boris-johnson-prime-minister-empire
But have you heard his latest piece of nonsense about it?
When challenged about having said this, he replied "I have no recollection of this comment but I noticed that it...it's not very well sourced, this story."
Not well sourced? What does that tell you what he thinks about the veracity of a Goverment Department of State...that he was head of at the time! :silly:
-
Boris has an inverse square relationship with common sense and his age, the bbc have not covered themselves in glory either.
Of course we've all seen him before
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nULFMp4jKBo
BBC censored Boris's insult to the French: Would-be PM called nation 'turds' over Brexit in documentary when he was Foreign Secretary - but producers axed jibe amid diplomatic pressure
EXCLUSIVE : Crude remark supposed to feature in fly-on-wall TV documentary
But the Foreign Office successfully begged for it to be cut, according to insiders
The claim is corroborated by a leaked Whitehall memo seen by the Mail
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7190081/BBC-censored-Boriss-insult-French.html
Calling the French ‘turds’ shows Boris Johnson is the eternal spoilt 15-year-old
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/28/calling-french-turds-boris-johnson-prime-minister-empire
But have you heard his latest piece of nonsense about it?
When challenged about having said this, he replied "I have no recollection of this comment but I noticed that it...it's not very well sourced, this story."
Not well sourced? What does that tell you what he thinks about the veracity of a Goverment Department of State...that he was head of at the time! :silly:
Fake news apparently, typing a Boris, Turd, France gets zero from the BBC news search box.
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I would say that calling Macron and Barnier turds is the truest statement to come out of any Brexit statement, the one nearest to the truth yet at least.
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Go on then Selby. What has Barnier done wrong to warrant that assessment?
-
He's not caved in to every ridiculous Brexiteer's wet dream fantasy demands of course.
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You have to love this. According to Tory Party members the worst candidate for PM is the one they would prefer!
https://twitter.com/theobertram/status/1144863429183905792
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That's actually not what that poll says.
The first question is asking which would make a good PM. It clearly has the option of respondents saying "both" because the figures add up to 116%.
So it's perfectly logical in terms of the poll for 55% to say Johnson would make a good PM and for 48% to say they prefer him as PM. That means most who think he is "good" would also prefer him.
Conversely, it's perfectly logical for 61% to say Hunt would be good but only 39% say they prefer him.
So there's nothing fundamentally wrong with those figures.
Of course, the fact that anyone in the Tory party things either of them would be a good PM shows how f**king batshit they are...
-
Ridiculous article in The Times today about senior civil servants apparently being concerned about Corbyn becoming PM because he's physically frail.
Lord knows there is plenty of criticise Corbyn for, but considering our next PM is grossly overweight and can't keep his cock in his pants, I think criticising Corbyn on physical grounds is a bit odd. I know who is put my money on out if Corbyn and Johnson to win a 5k race.
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Ridiculous article in The Times today about senior civil servants apparently being concerned about Corbyn becoming PM because he's physically frail.
Lord knows there is plenty of criticise Corbyn for, but considering our next PM is grossly overweight and can't keep his cock in his pants, I think criticising Corbyn on physical grounds is a bit odd. I know who is put my money on out if Corbyn and Johnson to win a 5k race.
A desperate look over there!
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Deal or No-Deal, depends on who's asking, to bexiters No-Deal, to Business yes a Deal. Fake or Fortune as these two play a game of Pea and thimble with the truth. Would I Lie to You? you already are.
''Brexit: both Tory sides play down risk of no-deal after business alarm''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/01/brexit-tory-leadership-no-deal-risk-business-alarm-jeremy-hunt-boris-johnson
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Stupid is as stupid does
(https://i.imgur.com/j0BhWAw.jpg)
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There has not been too much shouty shouty about campaign funds for the Tory wannabees, but there should be:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/revealed-climate-change-denier-makes-big-donation-boris-johnson-and-jeremy-hunt/
That old dark money tango eh!
The process of owning democracy in a covert bidding war is as brazen as ever, but it is becoming the new normal of the democratic process.
And now a word from our sponsors!
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There has not been too much shouty shouty about campaign funds for the Tory wannabees, but there should be:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/revealed-climate-change-denier-makes-big-donation-boris-johnson-and-jeremy-hunt/
That old dark money tango eh!
The process of owning democracy in a covert bidding war is as brazen as ever, but it is becoming the new normal of the democratic process.
And now a word from our sponsors!
Sponsors:
We are backing boris because we believe that you should never have to pay top dollar to get what you want in boris we see someone prepared to give up their last principle for personal gain someone who is flexible enough to see through the democracy trap and be able to get what they want without guilt to hold him back. We see boris as a conduit to self improvement as our man ready to accept the finest things in life where nothing given is his own. We see boris at the helm of a new United Kingdom and ourselves merely as puppeteers, thanks everybody, thanks again, thank you for coming, boris boooris booooris for PM right? boooooris, whoo hoo, boorris, :(,
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Steve Bell on Boris Johnson's vow to review 'sin taxes' – cartoon
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2019/jul/03/steve-bell-on-boris-johnsons-vow-to-review-sin-taxes-cartoon
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Got me thinking. If Boris Johnson's private life was subject to a Sin Tax...
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Grown-up politics at its best.
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My friend Johnson, everybody's friend just please give me a go, I know I can do aw please, don't make fun of me this is serious.
''My friend Boris Johnson has his faults, but he is the most talented person of his generation''
''I met Boris Johnson early in my first term at Oxford and we went on to share a house together. It was obvious even before he became President of the Union that he was the most talented person of my generation.
He was a scholar at Balliol, a college famous for what H H Asquith – one of several old boys who became prime minister – called “effortless superiority”, that annoying British ability to excel without apparently having put any work into it.
Boris embodies this to an extent he might call preternatural. I have always been proud to call this extravagantly gifted man my friend, so now I am going to defend him in public''
Maybe don't speak with your mouth full.
paywall
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/01/friend-boris-johnson-has-faults-talented-person-generation/
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Grown-up politics at its best.
Irony overload!
-
Grown-up politics at its best.
Irony overload!
Ain't it just!
-
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DxmCtGKwgJ2k&ved=2ahUKEwjxnev05pvjAhVOXRUIHQ5WDO0QwqsBMAB6BAgEEAU&usg=AOvVaw1y69lWVKg9co4weA18Jkld
So, it looks like the choice for PM is between a man who has trouble controlling his bell. Or Jeremy Hunt.
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Just cottoned on to Johnson's thing about the sugar tax.
Brexit backer, Lord Ashcroft is heavily involved in the business of sugar growing. In Belize.
Leave.EU organiser Andy Wigmore is a Belize diplomat.
Belize sugar currently has tariffs imposed on it by the EU.
Fill in the blanks yourselves...
EDIT.
As ever, the tireless Carole Cadwalladr is 10 steps ahead.
https://mobile.twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1146543660110102529
Welcome to Borisland folks.
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Isn't Lynton Crosby (the bloke running Boris' campaign) also a lobbist for the tobacco industry? Hmmm
https://www.tobaccotactics.org/index.php/Lynton_Crosby
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/06/lynton-crosby-lobbied-for-tobacco-giant-philip-morris
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-23394471/lynton-crosby-didn-t-intervene-on-tobacco-packaging-decision
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It is coming to something when the Tories are the worst off they have been for years, and in today's latest poll the Labour party are running fourth according to a programme on talk radio.
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I couldn't agree more Selby.
Still, I'm sure Corbyn knows what he is doing.
Len McCluskey obviously does. He was telling everyone not to panic at the weekend. Because Labour averaging 22% in the 16 national polls that have taken place since the EU elections is no cause for concern apparently.
I've long wondered whether some ostensibly left-wing trades union leaders were actually right-wing plants. Hugh Scanlon and Moss Evans (following Jack Jones) could not have done more to secure the ascent of Thatcher than they did by orchestrating the Winter of Discontent. Now we've got McCluskey doing his damnedest to destroy Labour as an electoral force.
It makes you wonder...
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Interesting Billy, what was it McCluskey said that you disagreed with?
He did for instance say, four times I think, that Labour now backed a referendum on any deal and no-deal would be disastrous.
-
The party running the country can't even run it's own leadership election legally!
Tory Party members receiving more than one ballot paper.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48890803
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Interesting Billy, what was it McCluskey said that you disagreed with?
He did for instance say, four times I think, that Labour now backed a referendum on any deal and no-deal would be disastrous.
Who's leading Labour...Corbyn or McCluskey?
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Wilts.
Maybe you should go and ask John McDonnell and Emily Thornberry and Dianne Abbott what the problem is with McCluskey's take. They have all publicly commented recently on Labour's policy on Brecit not working. There was a blood on the carpet Shadow Cabinet meeting the week before last on this topic. Corbyn's response was that he had to change policy slowly if he was going to take "The Movement" with him.
You can play clever, clever all you want, dressing up McCluskey's stance. But the truth is that his control over Corbyn is throttling the life out of Labour as an electoral force. And that is going to smack you, me and everyone on the Left in the face when Farage calls off the attack dogs when Johnson is elected PM and the Tories go back up to 35%. I've asked you times many and got no reply.
What does Labour do to counter that?
Explain it. Simply and clearly.
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Well doesn't this just about sum up the f**king catastrophe that is the Tory Party.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48934781
An ex-Tory PM telling the next Tory PM he wi take him to court to block his key policy.
Just get them out. They are a busted flush.
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Ambasdador to USA does his job
Someone in Govt leaks it to a propagandist who is tied up with the far-Right..
Ambassador forced to resign.
Welcome to UK 2019
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48937120
-
Embarrassing. And worrying. If one of the nation's top diplomats can't do his job because the manchild in the WH might throw a tantrum about it, that's a very dangerous precedent.
-
It's pretty obvious that he's had a hatchet job done on him so that Johnson can put someone in post who is more on board with the project.
-
It's pretty obvious that he's had a hatchet job done on him so that Johnson can put someone in post who is more on board with the project.
Perhaps he'll take Trump's advice and appoint Farage to try and strangle the Brexit Party at birth :lol:
-
I don't think there's any doubt that he's going to try to move into Farage territory. The question is whether he does that in a friendly or a confrontational way. Does he try to marginalise Farage or absorb him into the Tory party?
-
I don't think there's any doubt that he's going to try to move into Farage territory. The question is whether he does that in a friendly or a confrontational way. Does he try to marginalise Farage or absorb him into the Tory party?
I wonder if the interview on the resignation of Darroch he gave today might hold any clues for that? Not what he said but where he was and who he was with at the time he gave it. In a Wetherspoons with Tim Martin...
-
Ambasdador to USA does his job
Someone in Govt leaks it to a propagandist who is tied up with the far-Right..
Ambassador forced to resign.
Welcome to UK 2019
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48937120
Thrown under the bus by Boris, he should have told Trump to get f**ked and mind hisown affairs not ours
-
Filo. You know there's less than zero chance of Johnson doing that.
Welcome to Brexit Britain.
Bullied by America
Bullied by China
Bullied by Russia.
This is what happens when you overestimate your own importance and decide to give the rods to an organisation that is a genuine counterweight to those three powers.
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It's a bizarre situation.
Did the guy do anything wrong? No.
Should he have resigned? Only on his terms.
Should Johnson have backed him? Absolutely he should, he now appears weak.
Is it important to have someone who can work with Trump et al in that post? Probably.
Is Johnson right that those who leaked this should be held to account? Yes.
Could the leak have been a foreign entity? BST will say so, but quite possibly.
-
BFYP
If the leak was by a foreign agent, that's even more disturbing. Since it was leaked to Isabel Oakeshott, who is THE leading propagandist for the hard right.
That would be yet more evidence that the rabid Right were prepared to destabilise our systems of government for their (and other nations') political aims.
-
It's a bizarre situation.
Did the guy do anything wrong? No.
Should he have resigned? Only on his terms.
Should Johnson have backed him? Absolutely he should, he now appears weak.
Is it important to have someone who can work with Trump et al in that post? Probably.
Is Johnson right that those who leaked this should be held to account? Yes.
Could the leak have been a foreign entity? BST will say so, but quite possibly.
I struggle to see why anyone would vote for this fawning sycophant but when you see the sugar coated spin that they are given to read about their hero you can sort of understand it
''Tory leadership latest: Boris Johnson sees Trump as a 'lifeboat' to rescue Brexit and secure 'great deal'''
paywall
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/11/tory-leadership-boris-johnson-sees-trump-lifeboat-rescue-brexit/
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Welcome to your new PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49030873
f**k me, what an embarrassment we're making of ourselves. Anyone who even THINKS about supporting this t**t...
-
They say you get the politicians you deserve.
Must be some right f**king bell ends in this country then.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ChrisChilton64/status/1151759606139543554
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That's must've been what Boris and his girlfriend were arguing about.
She'd been speaking to the choc exec and feared their weekly Jaggeresque Mars Bar antics were in jeopardy ....allegedly.
-
So it looks like when blowjob gets the title he will be managed by legislation until he xxxxs up big time and then will be removed by a confidence motion. tick tick tick tick boom.
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So it looks like when blowjob gets the title he will be managed by legislation until he xxxxs up big time and then will be removed by a confidence motion. tick tick tick tick boom.
He can take the public for mugs, but his Parliamentary colleagues actually know the real him.
-
The tories, well some of them do have principles after all.
''Philip Hammond to quit government if Boris Johnson becomes PM
Chancellor joins David Gauke in saying he could not work for leader seeking a no-deal Brexit''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/21/david-gauke-to-quit-government-if-boris-johnson-becomes-pm
-
The tories, well some of them do have principles after all.
''Philip Hammond to quit government if Boris Johnson becomes PM
Chancellor joins David Gauke in saying he could not work for leader seeking a no-deal Brexit''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/21/david-gauke-to-quit-government-if-boris-johnson-becomes-pm
Principles? Ok, so why haven't all the shadow cabinet resigned over anti-semitism in the Labour Party?
-
Perhaps because, when you look into the detail, it's not actually that big a deal?
-
Sweet Jesus. The "never, ever seen shit like this in politics" ante just got raised again.
https://mobile.twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1153306900638916609?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1153311082691407873&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Flive%2Fuk-politics-49073992
-
The tories, well some of them do have principles after all.
''Philip Hammond to quit government if Boris Johnson becomes PM
Chancellor joins David Gauke in saying he could not work for leader seeking a no-deal Brexit''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/21/david-gauke-to-quit-government-if-boris-johnson-becomes-pm
[/quo
Principles? Ok, so why haven't all the shadow cabinet resigned over anti-semitism in the Labour Party?
Quick, look over there.
-
''I have no idea who sleuthfortruth is, but someone should find them and hire them as a speechwriter. “Voting for a populist party is like diving headfirst into an empty swimming pool, because you’re angry that there’s no water in it.” Brilliant. Trump and Brexit to a tee''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/15/populism-boris-johnson-brexit-trump
Skid-lids anyone?
-
Worth a read. If only to see what a Kitson we're about to entrust with the keys to No. 10.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jonlis1/status/1139069538832703488
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Well bugger me! Who could POSSIBLY have predicted this?
https://mobile.twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1153254516147609600
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Well bugger me! Who could POSSIBLY have predicted this?
https://mobile.twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1153254516147609600
This comment is significant, but it's all starting to sound a bit Tommy Cooper, glass bottle, bottle glass, Boris glass, Nigel bottle, boris nigel trump.
-
Looks like Dominic Cummings is going to be Johnson's special adviser at No10.
For those of you who don't follow these things too closely, that's the man who paid Cambridge Analytica £3m to figure out which Facebook users were more susceptible to having lies pumped remorselessly into their feeds, during the 2016 referendum.
He was found in contempt of Parliament earlier this year, when he refused to attend a Select Committee meeting where MPs were going to do their job and question him on these issues. And of course, the Vote Leave operation that he was key to has admitted breaking electoral law and paid a large fine as a result.
Good stuff, eh?
-
What I can't find is what the consequences are if any for the contempt of parliament for Cummings.
-
It's still going through the system Sydney. If I recall correctly, Cummings refused to attend because he said there were still criminal actions being taken against him and he had the right not to incriminate himself.
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KFC, this is terrifying.
Cummings is a man who believes himself to be the most intelligent person in politics. He's an obsessive who sees politicians as intellectual pygmies to be despised. He sees himself as a crusader, bringing in ideas from the forefront of scientific advancement into political decision making. He doesn't seem to realise that sometimes things go seriously tits up when you shake the world like that. Brilliant ideas on paper can lead to catastrophically bad practical outcomes because...well because not everyone is as geniusly bright as our Dom. So, a great idea like winning the Brexit vote can result in a reight f**king mess when you try to implement it.
So here's the terrifying bit.
https://dominiccummings.com/2019/03/01/on-the-referendum-31-project-maven-procurement-lollapalooza-results-nuclear-agi-safety/
He's musing on what decision making strategy you should employ in a nuclear confrontation.
And from today, he's the senior adviser to the man with his finger on the button - a man not known for his carefully considered responses.
Where's that Protect and Survive leaflet?
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49146480
What a Kitson. What a first-class, "Can't even stop myself from grinning cos I know exactly what I am doing" Kitson.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49146480
He KNOWS that screaming out "the deal that the EU spent two years negotiating with us is dead" means there's zero chance of there being any deal in place in October. And he's saying with that devious f**king grin " But WE are happy to negotiate so if everything fails it's the EU's fault".
Then he says how we'll be fine with No Deal, knowing full f**king well how catastrophic No Deal will be, and how the grown ups in Parliament will prevent that.
Which is exactly what he wants.
Because d**kheads in this country will lap it up and vote for him when he calls a General Election.
This is dragging our country's reputation through the shite to bolster that Kitson's career. Those who go along with this and still call themselves patriots are either thick as a piece of 4x2 or equally devious.
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There must be millions of people especially Gove kicking themselves because boris didn't get in at the last leadership change as he's making it look easy, a new railway here, 300 mill for Scotland, regional funding, 20 billion extra police, "Prosperity not Austerity" is the new slogo' get em while they're hot! everyone's a winner, welcome to the new imaginary world of boris where no one has to pay for anything.
A cynical person could think that Austerity was ideology rather than good government, nah that couldn't be true especially as the tories are renowned for their business acumen and in business if you clung to a methodology that didn't work for that long you wouldn't be in business would you?
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There must be millions of people especially Gove kicking themselves because boris didn't get in at the last leadership change as he's making it look easy, a new railway here, 300 mill for Scotland, regional funding, 20 billion extra police, "Prosperity not Austerity" is the new slogo' get em while they're hot! everyone's a winner, welcome to the new imaginary world of boris where no one has to pay for anything.
A cynical person could think that Austerity was ideology rather than good government, nah that couldn't be true especially as the tories are renowned for their business acumen and in business if you clung to a methodology that didn't work for that long you wouldn't be in business would you?
It's easy to promise loads of stuff when you know damn well the economy won't be able to fund them after No Deal happens.
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There must be millions of people especially Gove kicking themselves because boris didn't get in at the last leadership change as he's making it look easy, a new railway here, 300 mill for Scotland, regional funding, 20 billion extra police, "Prosperity not Austerity" is the new slogo' get em while they're hot! everyone's a winner, welcome to the new imaginary world of boris where no one has to pay for anything.
A cynical person could think that Austerity was ideology rather than good government, nah that couldn't be true especially as the tories are renowned for their business acumen and in business if you clung to a methodology that didn't work for that long you wouldn't be in business would you?
It's easy to promise loads of stuff when you know damn well the economy won't be able to fund them after No Deal happens.
Disagree.
It's easy to promise things when you know that no deal won't happen and that you have an election to win!
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BFYP
Precisely!
If you're going to understand Johnson's sudden conversion to spaffing out promises of Govt money, you can only do it by understanding that we are in an election campaign. Here. Now.
He's already taken the Tories into a clear lead over the past week. If that solidifies, there WILL be an Election is Sept or Oct.
The b*llocks being spouted by Momentum about how Labour were further behind May when she took over, and still nearly matched her in 2017 is utterly missing the point. There were two arguments as to why Corbyn caught up ground on May. Firstly that Labour offered an alternative to Austerity. Secondly, that May turned out to be an utter social inadequate in the campaign.
The second one ain't going to happen under Johnson. And his pouring out of spending promises is going to make it harder for Labour to play the Austerity card.
Labour has one chance to defeat Johnson. It has to pull the centre-Left vote to Labour and away from the LDs and Greens. The polls aren't showing much sign of that happening at the moment.
Still. Wait till Conference, eh comrades?
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Bojo is doing exactly what the Tories accused Jeremy Corbyn of in the previous election. Making promises that can't be kept.
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I don't agree Idler. They CAN be kept. We've just all been programmed by Austerity to think that Govt can't have ambitious spending plans.
Problem for Labour is that, if the Tories now ditch Austerity and go balls out for major Govt spending, allied with a clear Brexit message, what is Labour's USP?
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Austerity is an ideological crock.
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I don't agree Idler. They CAN be kept. We've just all been programmed by Austerity to think that Govt can't have ambitious spending plans.
Problem for Labour is that, if the Tories now ditch Austerity and go balls out for major Govt spending, allied with a clear Brexit message, what is Labour's USP?
Borrowing the money to pay for this would explode the austerity myth created by Cameron and Osborne and totally alien to a lot of Tory voters.
Can you honestly see him pumping a lot of money into northern Labour heartlands once he won a decent majority in parliament?
Trump will also screw him to the floor in any trade deal.
It’s ok to criticise the EU for being intransigent and then rolling over for Uncle Sam in his book.
Worrying times ahead.
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I don't agree Idler. They CAN be kept. We've just all been programmed by Austerity to think that Govt can't have ambitious spending plans.
Problem for Labour is that, if the Tories now ditch Austerity and go balls out for major Govt spending, allied with a clear Brexit message, what is Labour's USP?
Try to call it irresponsible and poorly placed? Try to create a class war scenario that politically plays well for them? IE Boris cares for the rich but not you...
Investing in the north and Scotland is exactly what the Tories should do and get rid of that only caring for the south narrative.
Examples of things they could do;
Improve the poor road situations (A1, M60, cross pennine roads to name just a few). Sort out the cross pennine train situation and lack of capacity.
Offer tax breaks for business to invest and relocate to the north in places like Doncaster, Scunthorpe , Rochdale etc.
Increase educational spending in the north to enable the investment stated above and get more quality jobs.
Increase cultural subsidies to allow more arts festivals and increase the community feel in northern towns particularly. I feel Doncaster is doing ok with this but it could be so much better.
There's going to be a huge push to environmental and technological improvements - Yorkshire for example could really power that.
I would think that smaller scale schemes to improve many areas are better options than the crazy amount proposed for HS2...
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Idler.
Doesn't matter. You have to see it not as ideology, but as political tactics.
Austerity did its job in the 2010s. Not its economic job of course, that was a f**king disaster and we've had the slowest decade of economic growth for well over a century. It did its POLITICAL job, which was to undermine Labour's credibility among floating voters who thought they took these things seriously (but actually didn't know how economics works, and hence were ripe for being played).
The world's moved on now. It's not about convincing serious people. It's about convincing floating voters who have traditionally voted Labour but who are now Brexit zealots and are also Big State/High Govt Spending people. Tories will vote for Johnson anyway. It's about picking up enough outside the heartlands to secure a majority.
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Tories will vote for Johnson anyway. It's about picking up enough outside the heartlands to secure a majority.
If only the labour activists could click that!
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Idler.
Doesn't matter. You have to see it not as ideology, but as political tactics.
Austerity did its job in the 2010s. Not its economic job of course, that was a f**king disaster and we've had the slowest decade of economic growth for well over a century. It did its POLITICAL job, which was to undermine Labour's credibility among floating voters who thought they took these things seriously (but actually didn't know how economics works, and hence were ripe for being played).
The world's moved on now. It's not about convincing serious people. It's about convincing floating voters who have traditionally voted Labour but who are now Brexit zealots and are also Big State/High Govt Spending people. Tories will vote for Johnson anyway. It's about picking up enough outside the heartlands to secure a majority.
It's always about attracting enough fringe dwellers, whatever has happened up and until boris got his feet under the desk can be put to one side as the election campaign is up and running and the scare campaign will be the accompanying drum beat. if labour wants to pull this out of the fire they need to get united behind a no brexit banner surely, what else have they got? I can't see the EU changing anything for boris, but would they change for labor? if they would they can't flag it up. Boris will continue to promise the earth cos he doesn't give a rats about delivery, he's seen big society and the northern powerhouse ideas fall away it's now the big Con.
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Tories will vote for Johnson anyway. It's about picking up enough outside the heartlands to secure a majority.
If only the labour activists could click that!
Agreed BFYP. Labour's current approach seems to be to call everyone outside the Church of the Latter Day Jeremy a Red Tory, then expect them to vote Labour.
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And here he goes again.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-49151870
I'll paraphrase. "I want a deal which the EU have made clear since before the 2016 referendum is not acceptable to them. So it's their fault if we leave with No Deal."
I'll repeat. HE DOESN'T BELIEVE THIS.
He just thinks YOU are stupid enough to believe it and vote for him. Ask yourself if you're really that stupid.
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A summary of the reasons why an election is unlikely before the October 31 deadline;
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-general-election-snap-corbyn-brexit-vote-no-confidence-a9022336.html
Cummings (and BoJo) need to secure their Brexit before a GE, in order to prevent Farrago running candidates to pinch their vote.The "dead cat bounce" of a new leader has a very short shelf life where key promises fall at the first hurdle.
Labour is unlikely to form a majority under FPTP, more so because Johnson boosts SNP support in Scotland.
Without regaining Scottish seats, this is beyond expectation.
The issue is to form the largest single party, and so with partners form the next government.
The strategy is therefore to secure the best return in the top 100 target seats.
The demographics of voter intentions in these locations is much more important than generalised distribution of voting intention across the whole UK.
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Albie.
Top 100 target seats?
Labour is polling 15-20% below what it achieved in 2015. Without an astonishing turnround, you're looking at limiting losses, not securing targets.
If Labour doesn't pull back a large fraction of the 4-5 million voters it has currently lost to the LDs and Greens, it is going to lose a shed load of seats. Maybe not all directly to them, but also in Lab-Con marginals.
Now. I wonder how Labour could pull those votes back?
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Well it's not taken Sajid Javid long to drink the KoolAid has it?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49183324
He voted three times for May's deal, including the backstop.
As recently as three months ago, he was saying MPs had to vote for May's deal.
Now he's saying "We want to get a good deal that abolishes the anti-democratic backstop. But if we can't get a good deal, we'll have to leave without one."
Not a f**king principle between the lot of them. Government by spivs and chancers.
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You remember during the Tory leadership campaign when Johnson said he wanted to raise the salary at which people pay higher rate tax to £80k per year?
Every stop and think how than might be paid for?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tories-raise-state-pension-age-18953679.amp?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar&__twitter_impression=true
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Yep the tories from the UK and Australia copy the worst of each country.
The pension age Australia.
''65 years To be eligible for the age pension you must be 65 years or older. The qualifying age will gradually increase by 6 months every 2 years, to 67 years by 1 July 2023''
https://www.finder.com.au/australian-age-pension-eligibility-requirements
Can someone tell me how those that do physical work are expected to work for longer and longer?
Workstart (PovertyTrap) is the dole system here which is $555.70/fortnight so moving pensioners onto this saves the government money.
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Apparently they want to find ways of "helping" those who want to work past retirement age do so.
And the method of doing that is to remove state pension from everybody.
The bunch of mendacious, thieving bas**rds. A think tank headed by Ian Duncan Smith who brought you the evilness of Universal Credit.
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And before you know it, the Welfare State you've paid into all your life is taken away from you. Slice by slice.
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Every job done by a pensioner would be taking one from the list of vacancies for the young unemployed.
Now how much do they pay an unmarried teenager compared to an older married man?
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What I don’t get is tories do austerity and people like Sydney play up hell for years(maybe rightly so)when boris says he will put extra police and more money in the Nhs he still moans says its a gimmick basically, what will make you happy Sydney? If boris gets 10k plus extra police gives education and Nhs more money will you say well done or will you vote for the worst opposition leader in history?
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Maybe that's because the tories have used Austerity as an ideological hammer to dismantle the welfare state (look at the NHS) and starve councils of funds to pay down debt, now all that's defenestrated because kitson-johnson wants to win an election and the debt doesn't matter any more BP.
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It does Corbyn care about brexit or does he want to win a election?
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It does Corbyn care about brexit or does he want to win a election?
Reminder BP, JC is not in power.
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You remember during the Tory leadership campaign when Johnson said he wanted to raise the salary at which people pay higher rate tax to £80k per year?
Every stop and think how than might be paid for?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tories-raise-state-pension-age-18953679.amp?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar&__twitter_impression=true
It is not the answer and I suspect 100% they won't go for it at this point. Auto enrolment though is the first step in abolishing state pension, it will happen one day.
Ageing population is a problem and one that is difficult/nigh on impossible to answer.
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What I don’t get is tories do austerity and people like Sydney play up hell for years(maybe rightly so)when boris says he will put extra police and more money in the Nhs he still moans says its a gimmick basically, what will make you happy Sydney? If boris gets 10k plus extra police gives education and Nhs more money will you say well done or will you vote for the worst opposition leader in history?
What do you mean 'extra' police? There still won't be as many as when austerity started sacking them in the first place. A policy that Boris supported.
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Bpool.
You don't see the hypocrisy?
Ten years of saying "Deficit Denier" "Tighten our belts" "No Magic Money Tree", then just like that, the spending taps go on.
You don't see the hypocrisy in that?
You don't get that this lot have presided over THE worst recovery from a recession since the 1700s through their economic incompetence?
I suspect (might be wrong) that you are retired. Don't you see the spellbinding hypocrisy of leading Tories proposing that the retirement age for the rest of us goes up to 75 (because Govt can't afford to keep paying pensions from mid-60s) while also proposing to give massive tax cuts to those earning £80k per year.
You don't see any of that?
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Bpool.
You don't see the hypocrisy?
Ten years of saying "Deficit Denier" "Tighten our belts" "No Magic Money Tree", then just like that, the spending taps go on.
You don't see the hypocrisy in that?
You don't get that this lot have presided over THE worst recovery from a recession since the 1700s through their economic incompetence?
I suspect (might be wrong) that you are retired. Don't you see the spellbinding hypocrisy of leading Tories proposing that the retirement age for the rest of us goes up to 75 (because Govt can't afford to keep paying pensions from mid-60s) while also proposing to give massive tax cuts to those earning £80k per year.
You don't see any of that?
As opposed to "we'll deliver Brexit, we'll deliver Brexit"... "Ah no we want a referendum again"?
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''''EU27 diplomats have received a document from the Council and Commission describing claims made by @BorisJohnson in his #Brexit letter as “misleading” and “incorrect''''
Hard to believe really?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/aug/20/brexit-latest-news-boris-johnsons-backstop-offer-to-eu-dismissed-by-labour-as-fantasyland-wish-list-live-news#comment-132152970
Added:
EU says Boris Johnson's backstop proposal would not ensure no return to hard border in Ireland
Here is the full quote from the European commission’s spokeswoman, Natasha Bertaud, on Boris Johnson’s backstop proposal. She said:
We welcome the UK government’s engagement and continued commitment to an orderly withdrawal. We firmly believe this is in the best interests of both the EU and the UK.
However, we also note that the letter does not provide a legal operational solution to prevent the return of a hard border on the island of Ireland.
It does not set out what any alternative arrangements could be and in fact it recognises that there is no guarantee that such arrangements will be in place by the end of the transitional period.
Otherwise, as we have said on many occasions, we do stand ready to work constructively with the UK and within our mandate.
:facepalm: