World Cup Thread

[Pancho Regan]

Pretty straightforward to me. I can want England to win and be realistic about the quality of England and their opponents at the same time.

Of course you can. Just as long as you do it at least a few years after the event in a retrospective kind of way. ('they were better than them', 'they were good but didn't achieve anything' etc. etc.). Not directly after the event. It's a knock-out tournament full of drama, luck, irrationality, surprises, styles, tactics. Basically the irrational half of the game you have to submit to if you're ever going to enjoy it.

And you clearly aren't being realistic about the quality of England at all. I think there's a distinct chance England are the best team in this competition. I didn't at first but I do now. To say they're only playing the likes of Ipswich or Rotherham so we can't properly judge if they deserve to make the semi- final- really is doing that.

Well said Copps, agree totally.

I find BST’s glum take on England’s achievement almost amusing.
 He’s spent so long criticising our under-achievements, it’s almost like he’s begrudging our success and trying to belittle it in case it buggers up his argument!

For heavens sake BST, loosen up and enjoy the ride!

I had no expectations of this England squad and I too have been let down so many times by previous England teams, but I’ve been up and down off my seat all afternoon and I’m absolutely thrilled that we’ve made it to the last 4.

[Pancho Regan]

And we’re doing what Germany are renowned for.... we’re improving as we progress through the tournament......

[IDM]

The biggest plus at this World Cup, as far as I can see, is the one on the Swiss flag..

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bit of over analysis going on there Pancho.

It’s amazing how easily people ignore the bits where I say I want England to win, and build up some great thesis out of the bits that they prefer to read.

Bit silly really, but there you go. I don’t understand why we can’t have honest discussion about this instead of it being so confrontational.

Some folk think England have been magnificent against excellent opposition.

Some think it’s impossible to tell how strong we are because we’ve played very weak opposition.

You can discuss that on its merits. Or you can ignore it. Or you can build up daft ideas that there are folk kicking doors and thumping their kids because England won. 

[niteowler]

I cannot understand all the negativity on here, what do fans want. I will tell you this that its good that it is Elizabeth 2nd who is on the throne and not Elizabeth 1st because they would have been dragged into the Tower of London and had their heads removed for treason. I remember when we beat Germany in 66 even then some so called fans were even arguing that our 3rd goal was not over the line. Things never alter !

[IDM]

It is probably fair to say England hasn’t been really tested by the best in the world, yet is in the semi final..

It’s not England’s fault that the qualifying draw and results meant we didn’t see Italy and Holland in Russia, not their fault how the World Cup fixtures were drawn, nor that a team like Spain didn’t make the semi..

Same thing happens every season in the FA Cup too.?

I think France and Belgium have played better than England, and Croatia have some excellent players..

But England are in the semi final on merit..  Colombia played dirty and England held out, and we were better than Sweden..

I remember 1990 vividly.. yes England’s group games weren’t great and Cameroon were tougher to beat than we expected, but I still maintain England could have won that year.  Argentina were not great at all despite reaching the final, and but for a penalty shootout we could have played them in the final..

Anything can happen now..

[dknward2]

England are now a team greater than the sum of their parts.

It's amazing this is happening after some people wrote off Southgate saying he was a fa yes man.

I'm glad Croatia had to play extra time and penalties and later game hopefully that could give us an edge during the game.

Whatever happens let's just be proud of them all

It's coming home

[BillyStubbsTears]

Niteowler

Where’s the negativity? I’ve not seen any but loads of folk are commenting on it. Where is it?

By the way, that third goal in 66. I hate to break it to you but it WASN’T over the line. And that’s not negativity either. It’s just a fact. As is the fact that the officials said it was, which is all that really matters. 

[scawsby steve]

I saw England win the world cup in 1966!
But there was only 16 teams in the competition that year and 10 of those were European teams a couple from south America and North Korea

Good god - I was calming a couple of lads down in local Sainsburys today - and they were singing / chanting etc. I said whoa whoa dont go too early ! Its different for me I said as I have seen England WIN the World Cup so even if Sweden do us (which is unlikely) I at least have the main prize won already

What I did not realise (and I have the Progs etc) was there were so few Teams in it. Never mind we - still won and my other magic memory was that North Korea were the "underdogs" and well supported as well !
Still can only remember Pak doo Ik as a NK Player

Remember watching North Korea beat Italy 4-3 at goodison park
Awesome game and a massive shock!

A bit dodgy that memory of yours Bedale.
NK beat Italy 1-0 at Middlesbrough.

Maybe the game at a Goodison that you are thinking about was the one when NK went 3-0 up inside 25 minutes against Portugal but lost 5-3.

You beat me to it there Hound; I can remember that group in the North-East; USSR, Chile, North Korea, and Italy; it's strange to think that both stadiums, Ayresome Park and Roker Park, are now gone.

I also remember that after the North Korea defeat, and failing to qualify from the group, Italy went home and were pelted with rotten eggs and tomatoes at the airport.

[GazLaz]

There’s always a massive amount of luck involved for whoever wins a knock out tournament. It’s very rarely the best side and it’s no indication of who the best side is. I’m just glad we are getting a bit of luck for once. We’ve had plenty go against us over the years.

[Tarkovsky_Mikluzhkin]

Yeah we can all get excited about England being in the SF but let's be realistic. Our group opponents weren't exactly the best in the world (and we only won 2 of them!)

Argentina were the worst team in the knock out stages (at least North Korea tried to play instead of just kicking lumps out of everyone) and we struggled through against 10 men.

So now we are playing Portugal with 1 and a half world class players but no international history or pedigree (they aren't exactly Brazil,Italy,Spain or Hungary are they? Plus they were 3-0 down to North Korea in the last round) and then we have a Final against one of the teams in the tough side of the draw but we'd take the Soviets or West Germany over Brazil/Italy/Spain any day!

Does anyone think any of our players are the best in the world? B Charlton is good but is he better than Pele, Luis Suarez or Mazzola?, No!)The defense hasn't been truly tested Garrincha would have run Wilson ragged (like he did in 62) and Vava/Pele, Bene/Albert, Amancio/Suarez,  Mazzola/Rivera are all better front lines than we've faced or have (seriously when are they gonna drop Hunt he can't even score when he's clean through!)

Our Midfield is bang average and everyone's acting like they are better than the Finney and Matthews era, They just aren't (Square pass Stiles can't be a World Champion without the whole tournament becoming a joke).
Lucky draw, Lucky decisions and playing all the games at Wembley. Everyone knows the best team in the World is Brazil and whoever fluke their way to the trophy will have a hollow victory IMO.

I want England to win of course but don't hate me for keeping it real guys

[Bentley Bullet]

If top seeds Germany won this World cup, I wonder if their fans would have said they only played against inferior opposition so it wasn't really a good indication of who was the best!

[IDM]

The winners of the World Cup are therefore the world champions, not necessarily the best team..

Brazil in 1982 being a prime example of the best team not to win..  if so called lesser teams never raised their game nor took advantage of a good draw, it would make for very boring and predictable tournaments.!

[niteowler]

You have gone and spoilt it for me now BST  as i thought we had won it 52 years ago fair and   square !

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

I’ve no idea if they would. And since no-one on this thread had said that about England, I’ve no idea why you’ve raised that question.

[Tarkovsky_Mikluzhkin]

Brazil in 1982 being a prime example of the best team not to win.. 

Brazil 82 best team never to win the World Cup! They weren't even the best team at that tournament did you not see England's back to back 0-0 draws in the last 12. That's the greatest team never to win the World Cup best 2 games I've ever seen.... although I was 16, ridiculously drunk and listening to "Blue Monday" by New Order on repeat throughout both games. So I might be wrong

[Bentley Bullet]

BST. Why do you deem yourself guilty about my comment?

The country is buzzing at the moment regarding our football team and (almost) everyone is enjoying the moment. It seems to me that the majority are looking for reasons to enjoy the ride, whereas a few are looking for reasons not to.

[Bollinger]

Watched the game in Glasgow last night. Always a welcoming and great place to go but a weird place to watch an England game.

The locals put England's progress into perspective for me though by explaining that:

1. Some of the world's best teams didn't qualify
2. The world's best teams have all been knocked out
3. Only the crap teams are left.


So there you have it. Two years of intense competition and we're down to the last 4 and they're all rubbish.

[ravenrover]

Niteowler

Where’s the negativity? I’ve not seen any but loads of folk are commenting on it. Where is it?

By the way, that third goal in 66. I hate to break it to you but it WASN’T over the line. And that’s not negativity either. It’s just a fact. As is the fact that the officials said it was, which is all that really matters. 

4th one was though 😊

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

Guilt? That’s the best laugh of the morning.

I’m genuinely bemused about how these ideas get traction. No one. Not one person has said that England have got to the semis only because they have played poor opponents. And yet there’s a pile of people moaning about negativity and then you wading in with your pointless post.

I thought the idea was that we were supposed to be enjoying the ride?

[DonnyOsmond]

Watched the game in Glasgow last night. Always a welcoming and great place to go but a weird place to watch an England game.

The locals put England's progress into perspective for me though by explaining that:

1. Some of the world's best teams didn't qualify
2. The world's best teams have all been knocked out
3. Only the crap teams are left.


So there you have it. Two years of intense competition and we're down to the last 4 and they're all rubbish.

Did you try to explain if they were good they would have qualified?

[RedJ]

By world's best teams I think we should read teams with an international history and pedigree that somehow determines them to be the best countries forever. Italy weren't great in qualifying. Germany were shite in the group stages and could very easily have gone out a game sooner had Sweden been more streetwise. The Dutch have been shite for years. Can't really think of any other major powers who didn't make it there at all.

[Filo]

Watched the game in Glasgow last night. Always a welcoming and great place to go but a weird place to watch an England game.

The locals put England's progress into perspective for me though by explaining that:

1. Some of the world's best teams didn't qualify
2. The world's best teams have all been knocked out
3. Only the crap teams are left.


So there you have it. Two years of intense competition and we're down to the last 4 and they're all rubbish.

That must explain why Scotland never qualify, they are one of the best teams in the World 😳😳😳😳

[roversdude]

Who cares if we are not the best team and that the draw has been kind, we are in the semi finals of the World Cup with a great chance to go further. I’ll take that
I was worried about Southgate thinking he was going to pick a squad full of egos but nothing but admiration for the job he has done so far

[Tarkovsky_Mikluzhkin]

Things are changing regarding the football superpowers. Look at the recent history of those teams. The Netherlands failed to qualify for a 32 team euros (only 50 odd take part). It's a shock but they've failed again so maybe it wasn't a 1 off. Germany have had their worst WC finish ever. Italy have been consistently bad over the last 4 year cycle. Brazil have got to 1 semi in the last 4 WC's (equalling their worst ever run) and that was at home... and they lost by 6.

I think those countries with the facilities and infastructure to create great football players are casting the net wider and less interested in players passports nowadays. The talent in football is stronger than ever but is spread out a lot more than in the past. There is a real possibility that we will have the 2nd WC Final this decade to involve two countries that haven't won it before. (Hopefully not though)

[Michael Shaw]

It really doesn’t matter what anyone (especially the Scottish and Welsh) fans think. We are still in the semi final and they are not, nor are most of the highest ranked clubs on the planet. It is just petty jealously as we strive forward no matter how we get there. Croatia are beatable and then it’s France or Belgium in the final. Even if we lose the next game we still got further  than all but a couple of countries on the planet and no-one can take that away from us.

[Michael Shaw]

roversdude, my view exactly.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Things are changing regarding the football superpowers. Look at the recent history of those teams. The Netherlands failed to qualify for a 32 team euros (only 50 odd take part). It's a shock but they've failed again so maybe it wasn't a 1 off. Germany have had their worst WC finish ever. Italy have been consistently bad over the last 4 year cycle. Brazil have got to 1 semi in the last 4 WC's (equalling their worst ever run) and that was at home... and they lost by 6.

I think those countries with the facilities and infastructure to create great football players are casting the net wider and less interested in players passports nowadays. The talent in football is stronger than ever but is spread out a lot more than in the past. There is a real possibility that we will have the 2nd WC Final this decade to involve two countries that haven't won it before. (Hopefully not though)

Very good points.

I mused on here a week or so back that we seem to be moving out of the era where the top teams can strangle a game by dominating possession. Defences are now organised and patient enough to say “You have the ball. You’ll not hurt us. Then we’ll get it back for a moment and hit you hard.”

Russia did that brilliantly against Spainband Croatia. Sweden played the same sort of game and it almost worked in their match vs Germany. It might have worked against us too if Pickford hadn’t been in form.

Maybe the game is going to be a bit more level between the big countries and the small countries  for the next few years until the next dominating tactic is found?

[Bollinger]

Watched the game in Glasgow last night. Always a welcoming and great place to go but a weird place to watch an England game.

The locals put England's progress into perspective for me though by explaining that:

1. Some of the world's best teams didn't qualify
2. The world's best teams have all been knocked out
3. Only the crap teams are left.


So there you have it. Two years of intense competition and we're down to the last 4 and they're all rubbish.

Did you try to explain if they were good they would have qualified?

Keeping my mouth shut and my thoughts to myself seemed prudent. So smiling and nodding and not rising to the bait just got me called a 'smug English bas**rd'. At least they got that bit right.

[Michael Shaw]

Hopefully, the next dominating tactic has already been found. A calm, stress free team that enjoys the game like Southgate has instilled in this team.  LOL