World Cup Thread

[Tarkovsky_Mikluzhkin]

I was very worried about Southgate when he started talking about copying Spain. A strategy that that has increasingly been found out and countered against.
However, he seems to realise most of England's major tournament goals come from set pieces and pens, has then just worked on them relentlessly and it's causing massive problems.

[BillyStubbsTears]

That’s the thing.

We’ve dominated possession against the sides we’ve played and, while not making many chances, have looked by a million miles the most dangerous side in the competition from set pieces.

So we haven’t had the problems that Spain and Getmany had, of dominating possession without looking dangerous.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Interesting thing will be against Croatia. They’ll be better than us at holding possession. So what is our Plan B?

[bedale rover]

I saw England win the world cup in 1966!
But there was only 16 teams in the competition that year and 10 of those were European teams a couple from south America and North Korea

Good god - I was calming a couple of lads down in local Sainsburys today - and they were singing / chanting etc. I said whoa whoa dont go too early ! Its different for me I said as I have seen England WIN the World Cup so even if Sweden do us (which is unlikely) I at least have the main prize won already

What I did not realise (and I have the Progs etc) was there were so few Teams in it. Never mind we - still won and my other magic memory was that North Korea were the "underdogs" and well supported as well !
Still can only remember Pak doo Ik as a NK Player

Remember watching North Korea beat Italy 4-3 at goodison park
Awesome game and a massive shock!

A bit dodgy that memory of yours Bedale.
NK beat Italy 1-0 at Middlesbrough.

Maybe the game at a Goodison that you are thinking about was the one when NK went 3-0 up inside 25 minutes against Portugal but lost 5-3.

It was 52 years ago!

[RoversAlias]

This thread is the only place in the entire country I've seen misery relating to England's success. We aren't in the semi finals on luck, we're there on merit and have been a very dangerous side throughout these finals.

If any tournament has proven that you can't just label teams as good/bad based on reputation, it's this one. South Korea beat Germany. So did Mexico. Croatia stuffed Argentina. Costa Rica nearly got a draw against Brazil. Morocco held Spain at the same time Iran drew with Portugal. Japan nearly knocked out Belgium.

It's a nonsense. England have done superbly well. Grinding out a win against a very stubborn Tunisia. Blowing Panama away, better than any other team has done to an opponent in the tournament. Seeing off a violent, horrid but talented team in Colombia and now controlling a Quarter Final and seeing off a previously formidable Sweden team. The only better team Belgium had to beat to get here was Brazil, is anyone saying they've been lucky? Croatia drew with Denmark and Russia in the knockouts, were they lucky?

Just enjoy it. We don't get to see England doing this well very often at all.

[since-1969]

I can’t thinking of those players who will not feature in both games as it’s Looking like the team is selecting its self .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Aaaannddd...here comes another one.

Could you point out these negative, miserable posts?

[selby]

  Questions to be answered.
     1) Have this England team played to their full potential yet in this competition?
     2) Have Croatia?
  Two good sides, England have yet to play a team that actually set out to win the game from the start, and not try to hit us on the break.
  Croatia technically good, don't exactly play expansively, have  great players who fit their system.
   I think England have it in them to up their game, but it is all on the day, one mistake could cost either team the game,but  I think England could shade it.

[RoversAlias]

Aaaannddd...here comes another one.

Could you point out these negative, miserable posts?

Gladly BST.

- You referred to Sweden as "Championship standard". That's not true or fair on them.
- You called our performance yesterday "competent". Also does a disservice to how well our side played, and you said these last two comments in direct response to another poster praising the performance.
- You called our draw and path "lucky".
- You labelled this squad inferior to both our 1980s WC squads when we have surpassed them both in achievement, regardless of how good the individuals are on grass or paper.
- On the previous page you bring up our 3rd goal in 1966 not crossing the line, even though you weren't alive at the time.
- You called the opponents we've beaten to date "very ordinary".

You just come across with this air of patronisation sometimes, and certainly in this thread you've made a few comments that have been "Yeah, but..." to put a dampener on things. Maybe you don't even know you're doing it, but several people before me pointed it out so perhaps there's something to it. In fact over the last few pages a few people have made comments about negativity not specifically naming you and you've jumped to your own defence every time regardless.

You're not the only one and I've no doubt you want England to win, but the approach you seem to have towards it all is not one of optimism and positivity in my book, at a time when the majority of the country are being very optimistic and positive for a change.

I like what Rigo has suggested picking out the best bits of this tournament so I'm going to try and balance this post out by responding to that in a sec.

[RoversAlias]

Goal of the tournament: I agree it's Pavard's wonderful strike against Argentina for France. Just edges out Nacho v Portugal.

Player of the tournament: I'd say Hazard, Lukaku, Kane and Mbappe are all in the mix. Seldom does it go to a defensive player but a shout-out to Umtiti too, he's been imperious at the back for France. Oh, Modric too.

Best Team Performance: Belgium v Brazil, magnificent they were.

Best Individual Performance: Ronaldo v Spain, no question.

Best Game: France v Argentina ahead of Spain v Portugal and Belgium v Brazil.

Most Overrated Team: Germany, it has to be. Many including myself had them down as winners but they were awful.

Most Underrated Team: Dare I say England? They've looked far better than anyone expected and have performed well in nearly every game.

Biggest Flop: Germany just edging out Argentina, who at least made the 2nd Round.

Worst Manager: Jorge Sampaoli by a country mile.

Best Manager: Either Gareth Southgate or Roberto Martinez. I think this one can only be judged after the Final.

Biggest Revelation: This is a tough one. Cheryshev for Russia perhaps. Or Kieran Trippier.

Worst Tactical Decision: Take your pick of Argentina's woes. Where were Higuain, Dybala and Aguero when needed most? On the bench, inexplicably.

Unluckiest Team: Mexico. They looked wonderful for two group games, got lost against Sweden and it cost them a winnable 2nd Round tie. Honourable mention to Morocco, beaten by a last minute own goal to Iran then valiant in defeat to Portugal before nearly beating Spain. Fine margins.

Biggest Shock: Croatia battering Argentina tied with Germany getting dumped out by South Korea.

Winners: Too close to call now. I hope England. I'll be happy for Martinez if it's Belgium. Croatia would be a huge shock overall and France are the only one of the favourites still standing. They're growing in stature with every game, but it's hard to argue Belgium and England aren't doing the same.

[BillyStubbsTears]

RA

Every single one of those comments is defendable and, I’d suggest, accurate. I take them as sensibly realistic. There’s nothing negative or miserable about them, unless your confidence is so paper thin that you take umbridge at anything less than hyperbole.

Just one think you mis-read. I didn’t say this squad was inferior to anyone. I said that the others had all gone toe-to-toe with the very best in their tournaments and more or less matched them. This current squad hasn’t had a chance to do so, so it’s impossible to make that sort of comparison. Hopefully they will put that one to bed on Weds.

As for 1966. Come on! EVERYONE knows that ball didn’t go over the line. We got lucky on that occasion, just as we struck unlucky in 1986, when we could well have won the competition but for Maradona’s handball. It happens. You take your chance when you get the breaks and you take it on the chin when you don’t.

Now. If you look a little further back in this thread, you’ll see me saying how proud of English football I was on Tuesday night. And how I felt this side was starting to look like they could win the tournament. And how I’ve been on the edge of my seat like most other England football fans.

Or, you can build up some thesis on misinterpretations.

Your call.

[GazLaz]

Southgate came out after the Panama game and said we didn’t play that well, which we didn’t. Was he being negative or just highlighting that improvements can be made?

[ravenrover]

RA

Every single one of those comments is defendable and, I’d suggest, accurate. I take them as sensibly realistic. There’s nothing negative or miserable about them, unless your confidence is so paper thin that you take umbridge at anything less than hyperbole.

Just one think you mis-read. I didn’t say this squad was inferior to anyone. I said that the others had all gone toe-to-toe with the very best in their tournaments and more or less matched them. This current squad hasn’t had a chance to do so, so it’s impossible to make that sort of comparison. Hopefully they will put that one to bed on Weds.

As for 1966. Come on! EVERYONE knows that ball didn’t go over the line. We got lucky on that occasion, just as we struck unlucky in 1986, when we could well have won the competition but for Maradona’s handball. It happens. You take your chance when you get the breaks and you take it on the chin when you don’t.

Now. If you look a little further back in this thread, you’ll see me saying how proud of English football I was on Tuesday night. And how I felt this side was starting to look like they could win the tournament. And how I’ve been on the edge of my seat like most other England football fans.

Or, you can build up some thesis on misinterpretations.

Your call.

Tofiq Bahramov thought it was a goal
http://www.goal.com/en/news/11522/baku-2015/2015/01/29/8338942/tofiq-bahramov-the-story-of-footballs-most-famous-linesman

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well, Ali bin Nasser though Maradona has got his head to the ball in 86. Officials get it wrong.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Southgate came out after the Panama game and said we didn’t play that well, which we didn’t. Was he being negative or just highlighting that improvements can be made?

I missed that. Eeh, the patronising, unpatriotic negative misery guts.

[GazLaz]

Southgate came out after the Panama game and said we didn’t play that well, which we didn’t. Was he being negative or just highlighting that improvements can be made?

I missed that. Eeh, the patronising, unpatriotic negative misery guts.

If people in life never saw what could be improved upon we would all still live in caves.

[selby]

  Billy, I was stood behind that goal in 66, with Andy Lochhead and Ray Pointer and a mate. None of us had any idea whether it crossed the line or not, but Roger Hunt, who was the nearest player with the best view immediately threw his hands above his head and turned away.
    He could have just nodded it in, and is the reason I have always thought it was a goal, he had the best view in the house.
  We paid £50 each for two tickets off a tout, face value was £3 19s 6d I think.

[BillyStubbsTears]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ySUM0ZERdA4

Hunt turned away because the ball was nowhere near him.

[Copps is Magic]

Interesting thing will be against Croatia. They’ll be better than us at holding possession. So what is our Plan B?

Will they?

Here's Croatia's possession stats the last five (half) decent opponents they've faced.

vs. Greece (Away leg: 36% Home: 59%)
vs. Mexico (36%)
vs. Brazil (38%)
vs. Argentina (43%)
vs. Denmark (54%)

(I'm excluding teams like Iceland, Russia, Senegal here)

But it doesn't strike me from that they are a particularly possession-based side. To be honest, I know very little about how they play. I do generally think on the other hand that England are regarded as a possession-based side, and that's often been our downfall in the past.

This tournament I'm seeing something different from England. A new kind of patience, I would almost describe it as calm with the ball. Pundits screaming get in the box but clearly they're under instruction to keep possession and build a different way.

Plan B for England will be plan A. More of the above for sure.

[pib]

While our draw was favourable and we haven't faced the "fancied" nations in the knockout yet, there's plenty to suggest this England run is not just down to a bit of luck and an "easy" draw.

Plenty of the other supposed favourites have come unstuck, or looked unconvincing so far. Brazil, Spain and Germany are out, France looked unconvincing especially early on, Argentina have been terrible. You can say we've beaten poor sides but some of the better sides haven't always been up against brilliant opposition and have looked ordinary at best a lot of the time.

Also, think back to previous campaigns where England have faced so-called lesser opposition and still come unstuck. Scraped through and looked poor against USA, Slovenia and Algeria in 2010 (arguably an easier group than this year), failed to beat Russia, Slovakia and Iceland at the Euros, failed to even win one group game in 2014.

We've nullified Colombia and probably should've seen out a win in normal time, and that was against a side a lot of people consider as dark horses. They're not considered in the top tier of international sides but aren't far off.

There's plenty going for this England side. It's easy to take it for granted because of the opposition they've faced, but I don't think this would've happened under Hodgson or Capello for example. We're playing better football and look more tactically adept than under previous managers, and there's a feeling of togetherness and positivity for once.

From what I've seen of Croatia, there's a fairly decent chance of England getting to the final. Croatia have got some very good players, and playing England might suit them more than Russia/Denmark, but I still think we've got the players to cause them problems too so it should be a good game.

Either way, I'd find it hard to knock or criticise England in this World Cup so far, even if we get knocked out by Croatia. It's very rare that an England side isn't already home by this point, so we might as well enjoy it and then pick the bones out after.

[swintonrover]

I was curious about this "easy draw" conspiracy. Since 1998, when it became a 32 team tournament, the winners run has been;

France 1998 - South Africa, Saudi Arabia, Denmark, Paraguay, Italy, Croatia, Brazil.

Brazil 2002 - Turkey, China, Costa Rica, Belgium, England, Turkey, Germany.

Italy 2006 - Ghana, USA, Czech Republic, Australia, Ukraine, Germany, France.

Spain 2010 - Switzerland, Honduras, Chile, Portugal, Paraguay, Germany, Germany, Netherlands.

Germany 2014 - Portugal, Ghana, USA, Algeria, France, Brazil, Argentina.

2018:
England - Tunisia, Panama, Belgium, Colombia, Sweden, Croatia, FRA/BEL.

Croatia - Nigeria, Argentina, Iceland, Denmark, Russia, England, FRA/BEL.

France - Australia, Peru, Denmark, Argentina, Uruguay, Belgium, ENG/CRO.

Belgium - Panama, Tunisia, England, Japan, Brazil, France, ENG/CRO.

The draws are quite fairly spread, it's not like teams regularly go Uruguay, England, France, Spain, Argentina, Brazil, Germany. In fact the most difficult run of any world cup based on name alone would be England in 66 (Uruguay, Mexico, France, Argentina, Portugal, Germany). No need for negativity here.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Swinton.
There’s another way of looking at it.

Over the past 40 years England have got past the  Round 1 groups in 82, 86, 90, 98, 02, 06 and 10.

We’ve played 13 post-R1 matches before this tournament. 
3 vs Germany
2 vs Argentina 
1 vs Paraguay
1 vs Ecuador
1 vs Brazil
1 vs Belgium
1 vs Denmark
1 vs Cameroon
1 vs Spain
1 vs Portugal

By that record, this has been a relatively easy draw. There’s no arguing that. By the examples you give, we’ve had a slightly easier run that average to this stage but not ridiculously so.

In a nutshell, we’ve tended to hit one of the top contenders in R2 or QF. Most winners don’t. We haven’t this time. I guess it balanced out over a very long period.

That’s kind of what I was saying two weeks ago, when I said it made sense to try to get an easy draw. Because few nations win the World Cup after beating a string of top contenders. Chances are you get unlucky on one day if you face a string of good opponents. Interestingly, a lot of the same folk were having a pop then, saying we should be confident in taking on anyone. But as your info shows. Few sides win the WC the hard way. We’ve had a stroke of luck this time which we haven’t really had since 90. Let’s hope we can capitalise.

[tommy toes]

  Billy, I was stood behind that goal in 66, with Andy Lochhead and Ray Pointer and a mate. None of us had any idea whether it crossed the line or not, but Roger Hunt, who was the nearest player with the best view immediately threw his hands above his head and turned away.
    He could have just nodded it in, and is the reason I have always thought it was a goal, he had the best view in the house.
  We paid £50 each for two tickets off a tout, face value was £3 19s 6d I think.

WOW Selby ...Ray Pointer!  Along with Willie Nimmo he was my hero as a kid.

[Bentley Bullet]

Of course it was in!

https://youtu.be/HKFyUqvsPuM

[Copps is Magic]

Just spent a bit of time reflecting on Germany's world cup win in 2014.

Before they reached the semi-final and roundly smashed Brazil they scored 10 goals, only 5 of which from open play;

1 penalty
2 corners
2 from freekicks
5 open play

They were also in some extremely close games; Drew with Ghana, got taken to extra time by Algeria and had narrow victories over USA and France. Got me reflecting on England this time round. Certainly suggests having a reliance on set-pieces isn't a problem. And also suggests narrow victories are to be expected and if you ride them great. Germany's style of play was also very laconic and, as we know, clinical. Probably get shot down but I can see glimpses of that in England this year.

Only thing left is a truly memorable performance? Can we do that. I think if Sterling can bang in a few of these chances he's creating then we certainly can.

[selby]

  A couple of years ago in the FA cup Arsenal played nobody of note up to the semi final, Lincoln City, non league and lower league all the way.
    Then they drew Man City in the semi final, and Chelsea in the final, played very well in both games and won the cup,when given very little chance by the so called experts in those games.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Copps.

Let’s compare like with like.

Last few England matches against decent opponents. England possession stats.

Colombia 52%
Netherlands 52%
Italy 48%
Germany 45%
Brazil 34%

We had 59% possession vs Nigeria at Wembley last month. Croatia had 55% against them in the Group stages.

All the figures suggest that England and Croatia are reasonably similar in their ability to hold possession. I probably over played it in saying that Croatia will dominate possession (although they might if Modric and Rakitic are on form, which they weren’t, so much last night). The point still stands though. It’s unlike that England will get the 58-62% possession figures that we had against Tunisia, Panama and Sweden. So it’s likely that we’ll need some tactical flexibility, because we’re likely to have at least some extended periods without the ball. And we’re going to face a side that can get in behind and hurt you.

[Tarkovsky_Mikluzhkin]

England's 66 team were the first to beat a former winner on their way to the trophy*. Since then in all but 2 tournaments the winners have beaten at least 1 former winner.
If England beat Belgium in the Final they will be the 1st winners to not face a former winner since West Germany (in 74)  and the 1st not to beat a former winner since Argentina (in 78) - they lost to Italy and drew with Brazil in their victorious campaign. 12

*From 1970-1998 England didn't beat 1 former winner in 7 attempts.
They beat Argentina in 2002 and currently stand at 1 win from 12 since 66.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Just spent a bit of time reflecting on Germany's world cup win in 2014.

Before they reached the semi-final and roundly smashed Brazil they scored 10 goals, only 5 of which from open play;

1 penalty
2 corners
2 from freekicks
5 open play

They were also in some extremely close games; Drew with Ghana, got taken to extra time by Algeria and had narrow victories over USA and France. Got me reflecting on England this time round. Certainly suggests having a reliance on set-pieces isn't a problem. And also suggests narrow victories are to be expected and if you ride them great. Germany's style of play was also very laconic and, as we know, clinical. Probably get shot down but I can see glimpses of that in England this year.

Only thing left is a truly memorable performance? Can we do that. I think if Sterling can bang in a few of these chances he's creating then we certainly can.

I’ve been thinking very much the same thing. We have reminded me very much of Germany. I said on Tuesday night that Kane was looking more and more like Klinsmann. Reliable. Cool. Rarely giving less than you expect. Nothing flashy, but rock solid.

And the same can be said of the whole side. We’ve straightforwardly put a set of limited opponents to the sword in the way that you usually expect Germany to do. The “competent” description that got so many folks’ blood pressure up was actually a compliment. The usual Germany wouldn’t need or expect a “magnificent” performance to finish off a limited side like Sweden. They would competently dominate them and flick them aside. And they certainly wouldn’t call a performance like that “magnificent.” For them, it would be straightforward business as usual.

That’s what we looked like yesterday. Whether we have the extra gear I still don’t know and no-one knows because we’ve not been asked to look for it. We’ll find out next week.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Of course it was in!

https://youtu.be/HKFyUqvsPuM

They froze that before the ball hit the ground therefore making it seem over, it wasn't. But so good to still have this doubt after all these years.