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Quote from: dickos1 on July 18, 2021, 03:21:08 pmI don’t recall any occasions where we looked panicked at the back, don’t recall any occasions where our defenders Mis-controlled balls. The one error which let in muller was made by Sterling. We had the best defence in the tournament, only one side scored against us in open play, The Czechs, scored 2 against Holland, Croatia 3 against Spain, Germany 4 against Portugal.None of them could score against us. You say we should play a more direct style but whatever style southgate has brought it has been the most successful style we’ve had for a very long time. Why would you change it If you are saying that you didn't recall any occasions when we looked unsure at the back, then i don't know what to say ! the fact we had to put the boot in to clear a ball quickly on numerous occasions means to me that you have lost control of the passing build up you were trying to create as all options had been extinguished, that does not lend itself to a controlled and organised build up.I don't disagree that our defence was bad my point is that how much better could we have been playing to a style that enhanced our strengths rather than diluted them. you could even say that our defence was good because we had such a defence minded setup with the two holding midfielders that this perceived strength was also our downfall in our attacking prowess, we never seemed to me to have sufficient bodies in the attacking third to be able to construct an attacking play. it looked like most defences had plenty of time to reset and stifle our attacking play. This could also be the reason that we won matches by the odd goal of one, so not as penetrative a team as i would like to watch.Overall no ones bashing anyone or demeaning the players, they did what they did to the best of their ability or the ability that other teams allowed. i just think we missed a massive opportunity, one that i feel will be difficult to achieve again because of the rigid and safety averse nature of our setup will not allow us to kick on. I don't know that Southgate can learn from these setbacks to push on to the next level, the last world cup demonstrated that progress on that front had not been achieved.
I don’t recall any occasions where we looked panicked at the back, don’t recall any occasions where our defenders Mis-controlled balls. The one error which let in muller was made by Sterling. We had the best defence in the tournament, only one side scored against us in open play, The Czechs, scored 2 against Holland, Croatia 3 against Spain, Germany 4 against Portugal.None of them could score against us. You say we should play a more direct style but whatever style southgate has brought it has been the most successful style we’ve had for a very long time. Why would you change it
Quote from: danumdon on July 18, 2021, 03:48:02 pmQuote from: dickos1 on July 18, 2021, 03:21:08 pmI don’t recall any occasions where we looked panicked at the back, don’t recall any occasions where our defenders Mis-controlled balls. The one error which let in muller was made by Sterling. We had the best defence in the tournament, only one side scored against us in open play, The Czechs, scored 2 against Holland, Croatia 3 against Spain, Germany 4 against Portugal.None of them could score against us. You say we should play a more direct style but whatever style southgate has brought it has been the most successful style we’ve had for a very long time. Why would you change it If you are saying that you didn't recall any occasions when we looked unsure at the back, then i don't know what to say ! the fact we had to put the boot in to clear a ball quickly on numerous occasions means to me that you have lost control of the passing build up you were trying to create as all options had been extinguished, that does not lend itself to a controlled and organised build up.I don't disagree that our defence was bad my point is that how much better could we have been playing to a style that enhanced our strengths rather than diluted them. you could even say that our defence was good because we had such a defence minded setup with the two holding midfielders that this perceived strength was also our downfall in our attacking prowess, we never seemed to me to have sufficient bodies in the attacking third to be able to construct an attacking play. it looked like most defences had plenty of time to reset and stifle our attacking play. This could also be the reason that we won matches by the odd goal of one, so not as penetrative a team as i would like to watch.Overall no ones bashing anyone or demeaning the players, they did what they did to the best of their ability or the ability that other teams allowed. i just think we missed a massive opportunity, one that i feel will be difficult to achieve again because of the rigid and safety averse nature of our setup will not allow us to kick on. I don't know that Southgate can learn from these setbacks to push on to the next level, the last world cup demonstrated that progress on that front had not been achieved.I honestly don’t understand your point,Every side in the world has to clear the ball sometimes, the only occasions when we looked in trouble at the back was 10 min spell v Denmark when Pickford lost his head and the bad pass by Sterling. Other than that our defence looked as calm as assured as any other in the tournament. There is nothing at all wrong with defenders clearing the ball, I can’t believe people think otherwise. I think Southgate has learnt, of course he has. He’s completely changed the system, and the extra time v Croatia we were very negative but against Denmark in this semi final we absolutely battered them in the first period of extra time and deservedly scored.
Quote from: dickos1 on July 18, 2021, 03:55:01 pmQuote from: danumdon on July 18, 2021, 03:48:02 pmQuote from: dickos1 on July 18, 2021, 03:21:08 pmI don’t recall any occasions where we looked panicked at the back, don’t recall any occasions where our defenders Mis-controlled balls. The one error which let in muller was made by Sterling. We had the best defence in the tournament, only one side scored against us in open play, The Czechs, scored 2 against Holland, Croatia 3 against Spain, Germany 4 against Portugal.None of them could score against us. You say we should play a more direct style but whatever style southgate has brought it has been the most successful style we’ve had for a very long time. Why would you change it If you are saying that you didn't recall any occasions when we looked unsure at the back, then i don't know what to say ! the fact we had to put the boot in to clear a ball quickly on numerous occasions means to me that you have lost control of the passing build up you were trying to create as all options had been extinguished, that does not lend itself to a controlled and organised build up.I don't disagree that our defence was bad my point is that how much better could we have been playing to a style that enhanced our strengths rather than diluted them. you could even say that our defence was good because we had such a defence minded setup with the two holding midfielders that this perceived strength was also our downfall in our attacking prowess, we never seemed to me to have sufficient bodies in the attacking third to be able to construct an attacking play. it looked like most defences had plenty of time to reset and stifle our attacking play. This could also be the reason that we won matches by the odd goal of one, so not as penetrative a team as i would like to watch.Overall no ones bashing anyone or demeaning the players, they did what they did to the best of their ability or the ability that other teams allowed. i just think we missed a massive opportunity, one that i feel will be difficult to achieve again because of the rigid and safety averse nature of our setup will not allow us to kick on. I don't know that Southgate can learn from these setbacks to push on to the next level, the last world cup demonstrated that progress on that front had not been achieved.I honestly don’t understand your point,Every side in the world has to clear the ball sometimes, the only occasions when we looked in trouble at the back was 10 min spell v Denmark when Pickford lost his head and the bad pass by Sterling. Other than that our defence looked as calm as assured as any other in the tournament. There is nothing at all wrong with defenders clearing the ball, I can’t believe people think otherwise. I think Southgate has learnt, of course he has. He’s completely changed the system, and the extra time v Croatia we were very negative but against Denmark in this semi final we absolutely battered them in the first period of extra time and deservedly scored. Like i said earlier i don't think this system that Southgate will persist with will enable us to kick on to the highest level.It was a good tournament to watch with some sides playing good, fast attacking and fluid football, i just wish that England could of been one of them because if they had then we would of won it.
I think it’s a fairly lazy criticism nowadays to say our players aren’t technically gifted enough. Stones is a superb footballer (in the past it’s his defending and concentration that’s let him down but he seems to have largely ironed that out). Maguire is also excellent at bringing the ball out, as is Ben White who sat in reserve. Declan Rice (22 years old and improving all the time) was arguably our best player in the final. Kalvin Phillips (25 years old and improving all the time) falls victim to lazy stereotypes from people that I can only assume have never watched him play. Mason Mount (22 years old) didn’t have a great tournament but he’s a very technically gifted midfielder. Once our wingbacks were forced back, I’d agree that Italy began to get on top of the midfield battle and outnumber Rice and Phillips. Could Southgate have acted earlier? Perhaps so, but it’s very difficult to make these calls. Let’s not forget that he got so many of them right in the tournament, often by doing the opposite to popular opinion. We’re all experts on here, and it’s the nature of any football fan to think they know best, but for all the criticism aimed at Southgate he’s steered us to a semi final and a final. Do we think that we’d have managed that had we ousted Southgate and deployed the tactical nous of the VSC forum? How many other nations can match our record in the last two major tournaments? We’re really not doing that badly are we. Southgate is a smart guy. He’s pushed the team on after Russia, and I expect he’ll look back and reflect on this tournament and work out ways that we may be able to push further still. As dickos rightly says, that’s unlikely to involve shoe horning all our best / favourite players in, but I’d like to see a way of getting the likes of Grealish more involved in the game. We still have an exciting future as this is a very young team with plenty of development in it. I think the manager is improving, too. Nothing is ever perfect, other than our own opinions. But none of us could do a better job.
All the keeping possession etc is irrelevant when it comes to a penalty shootout and that’s the only reason we lost. A couple of penalties away from winning a major championship so how can you say we’re not ready to win one. When we beat Croatia, the Czechs, Germany, Denmark, all the negative English who have been saying for years how bad we are state we only won because they’re not as good as they used to be or they were tired. It’s utter nonsense, just be positive about the side and if we beat Germany say wow that’s a great result, don’t start saying it’s because they’re not very good anymore. Croatia drew with Spain a couple of weeks later yet when we beat them they were a very bad Croatia Side
Quote from: dickos1 on July 18, 2021, 05:33:17 pmAll the keeping possession etc is irrelevant when it comes to a penalty shootout and that’s the only reason we lost. A couple of penalties away from winning a major championship so how can you say we’re not ready to win one. When we beat Croatia, the Czechs, Germany, Denmark, all the negative English who have been saying for years how bad we are state we only won because they’re not as good as they used to be or they were tired. It’s utter nonsense, just be positive about the side and if we beat Germany say wow that’s a great result, don’t start saying it’s because they’re not very good anymore. Croatia drew with Spain a couple of weeks later yet when we beat them they were a very bad Croatia SideOnce Italy equalised I was screaming for penalties and that's never right from an english football fan .Yes Italy won on pens but they were undoubtedly the better team on the night and Croatia were convincing winners in the world cup semi final .Yes there were positives from the tournament and we are a million miles from where we were in 2016 .However you have to accept where the flaws are and the flaws are significant at this level and they find us out when it matters the most .
Quote from: tyke1962 on July 18, 2021, 05:44:46 pmQuote from: dickos1 on July 18, 2021, 05:33:17 pmAll the keeping possession etc is irrelevant when it comes to a penalty shootout and that’s the only reason we lost. A couple of penalties away from winning a major championship so how can you say we’re not ready to win one. When we beat Croatia, the Czechs, Germany, Denmark, all the negative English who have been saying for years how bad we are state we only won because they’re not as good as they used to be or they were tired. It’s utter nonsense, just be positive about the side and if we beat Germany say wow that’s a great result, don’t start saying it’s because they’re not very good anymore. Croatia drew with Spain a couple of weeks later yet when we beat them they were a very bad Croatia SideOnce Italy equalised I was screaming for penalties and that's never right from an english football fan .Yes Italy won on pens but they were undoubtedly the better team on the night and Croatia were convincing winners in the world cup semi final .Yes there were positives from the tournament and we are a million miles from where we were in 2016 .However you have to accept where the flaws are and the flaws are significant at this level and they find us out when it matters the most .I was there and for the rest of the 90 mins you’re correct they were the better side. But in extra time they were the side playing for penalties, we were the better side in extra time in my opinion.But out of all the good sides we played only Italy scored against us in open play, If we’d lost to any of the sides we beat everyone would be saying it’s the same old story but it wasn’t and nobody is acknowledging that
We will never get a better opportunity than we had last Sunday night to win a major tournament .We can dress this up how we want but we let it slip away .I mean even in the penalties we should have succeeded , who the hell misses two penalties as Italy did and still gets over the line ?Extremely frustrating night to say the least .I was absolutely gutted , stunned when Rashford and Saka missed .Pickford saves two pens and still doesn't pick up a winners medal !!!Dear me .If this was 1990 again or even 1996 maybe you could just brush it off but we've seen this so many times and I most certainly don't buy in to the " Penalties are a lottery " opinion .They aren't because if they were the Germans would have lost 50% of their shoot outs and history tells us they've only ever lost one in their entire history .Just when you think England can't find another way to lose a penalty shoot out they come up with something even more original .Getting to a final wasn't enough for me , that's just me because getting to finals is incredibly difficult and we may not get another opportunity in my lifetime .That's hard for me to take , it really is .
Quote from: tyke1962 on July 18, 2021, 08:19:59 pmWe will never get a better opportunity than we had last Sunday night to win a major tournament .We can dress this up how we want but we let it slip away .I mean even in the penalties we should have succeeded , who the hell misses two penalties as Italy did and still gets over the line ?Extremely frustrating night to say the least .I was absolutely gutted , stunned when Rashford and Saka missed .Pickford saves two pens and still doesn't pick up a winners medal !!!Dear me .If this was 1990 again or even 1996 maybe you could just brush it off but we've seen this so many times and I most certainly don't buy in to the " Penalties are a lottery " opinion .They aren't because if they were the Germans would have lost 50% of their shoot outs and history tells us they've only ever lost one in their entire history .Just when you think England can't find another way to lose a penalty shoot out they come up with something even more original .Getting to a final wasn't enough for me , that's just me because getting to finals is incredibly difficult and we may not get another opportunity in my lifetime .That's hard for me to take , it really is .Everyone said in the World Cup we’d never get a better chance yet straight away in the next major tournament we’re there again and now people are saying once again we’ll never get a better chance. Maybe we’re getting these chance because we’re a very good side.We will be there or there abouts in the next World Cup too, We’re a very good side now and we should be appreciating it and not slagging it off in the same way we would have done not getting out of the group.We must be the most consistent side in Europe ober the last 5 years, nobody else made two semi finals
Quote from: tyke1962 on July 18, 2021, 08:19:59 pmWe will never get a better opportunity than we had last Sunday night to win a major tournament .We can dress this up how we want but we let it slip away .I mean even in the penalties we should have succeeded , who the hell misses two penalties as Italy did and still gets over the line ?Extremely frustrating night to say the least .I was absolutely gutted , stunned when Rashford and Saka missed .Pickford saves two pens and still doesn't pick up a winners medal !!!Dear me .If this was 1990 again or even 1996 maybe you could just brush it off but we've seen this so many times and I most certainly don't buy in to the " Penalties are a lottery " opinion .They aren't because if they were the Germans would have lost 50% of their shoot outs and history tells us they've only ever lost one in their entire history .Just when you think England can't find another way to lose a penalty shoot out they come up with something even more original .Getting to a final wasn't enough for me , that's just me because getting to finals is incredibly difficult and we may not get another opportunity in my lifetime .That's hard for me to take , it really is .Everyone said in the World Cup we’d never get a better chance yet straight away in the next major tournament we’re there again and now people are saying once again we’ll never get a better chance. Maybe we’re getting these chance because we’re a very good side.We will be there or there abouts in the next World Cup too, We’re a very good side now and we should be appreciating it and not slagging it off in the same way we would have done not getting out of the group.We must be the most consistent side in Europe ober the last 5 years, nobody else made two semi finals
We will never get a better opportunity than we had last Sunday night to win a major tournament .We can dress this up how we want but we let it slip away .I mean even in the penalties we should have succeeded , who the hell misses two penalties as Italy did and still gets over the line ?Extremely frustrating night to say the least .I was absolutely gutted , stunned when Rashford and Saka missed .Pickford saves two pens and still doesn't pick up a winners medal !!!Dear me .If this was 1990 again or even 1996 maybe you could just brush it off but we've seen this so many times and I most certainly don't buy in to the " Penalties are a lottery " opinion .They aren't because if they were the Germans would have lost 50% of their shoot outs and history tells us they've only ever lost one in their entire history .Just when you think England can't find another way to lose a penalty shoot out they come up with something even more original .Getting to a final wasn't enough for me , that's just me because getting to finals is incredibly difficult and we may not get another opportunity in my lifetime .That's hard for me to take , it really is .
You don't get anything for reaching the semi finals though.
Quote from: EasyforDennis on July 19, 2021, 06:51:35 pmYou don't get anything for reaching the semi finals though.Blows my mind that people think like this. Between 1966 and Southgate’s appointment, England have had the opportunity to play in 25 major international tournaments. They didn’t qualify for 7 of those, made the semi finals twice (8% of the time) and made the final a grand total of zero times. This was under 12 different managers (not including caretakers).How is a semi final and a final in 2 major tournament appearances not progress after that record, regardless of whether any trophies were actually won?!
You must be joking, Phillips was a revelation in the tournament and has been recognised by many foreign ex superstars as one of the best players in the tournament. Just because he plays for Leeds shouldn’t mean we can’t accept a very good player.Leeds are going to find it difficult to keep hold of him
I never said that although on premier league performances he’s better than jorginho.But you said he’s marginally better than dier which is like saying copps was marginally better than Chris black
Quote from: dickos1 on July 19, 2021, 04:55:21 pmYou must be joking, Phillips was a revelation in the tournament and has been recognised by many foreign ex superstars as one of the best players in the tournament. Just because he plays for Leeds shouldn’t mean we can’t accept a very good player.Leeds are going to find it difficult to keep hold of him This. And I honestly think Declan Rice is going to be such a good player. He’s 22 and plays with a maturity way beyond that. In the final he showed he can handle the pressure on the very biggest stage and also showed he can drive a team forward (which some doubted he had in his game).