Electric Cars - a serious logistical question

[selby]

  I think the full idea was to change the name from the M1 to Prescott way and the M4 to Blair's Road.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Makes you yearn for the days of great comedians like...Little and Large.

[Filo]

There are 10 or maybe its 12 in Thorne on the B&M McDees Aldi site and of course they are always full of Cars that dont need them

I have only seen 2 cars ever charging there - but being convenient for the Shops they are always full so anything that could mean people dont need out and out charging spots (or we all need them) would help though it seems a long long way off

There’s three at the Barge Inn at Stanilands, one is a Tesla Supercharger

[selby]

  Have you ever seen anyone hanging around with nothing to do, waitig for their car to be mobile again Filo?

[Donnywolf]

There are 10 or maybe its 12 in Thorne on the B&M McDees Aldi site and of course they are always full of Cars that dont need them

I have only seen 2 cars ever charging there - but being convenient for the Shops they are always full so anything that could mean people dont need out and out charging spots (or we all need them) would help though it seems a long long way off

There’s three at the Barge Inn at Stanilands, one is a Tesla Supercharger

Never noticed them tbh. Never seen a Tesla so there would be no waiting for that one !

[selby]

  Most business duel fuel  reps cars are handed back with the charging point mechanism unused and in their original covers when sold. They are being  used  for tax reasons.
   The report said that a large percentage had never been used as an electric vehicle on the road.

[SydneyRover]

Makes you yearn for the days of great comedians like...Little and Large.

What ever happened to Ken Dodd aye.

[Donnywolf]

.... and then what happened to Kendoddsdadsdogsdead who used to post on here I wonder ? What a great name

[BobG]

Jesus... I think I must be part of the problem. I get 18 mpg on a good day.

BobG

[SydneyRover]

  Most business duel fuel  reps cars are handed back with the charging point mechanism unused and in their original covers when sold. They are being  used  for tax reasons.
   The report said that a large percentage had never been used as an electric vehicle on the road.

Must be some good buys on the used car scene, I'll ring the local conservatives. 

[SydneyRover]

''Norway and the A-ha moment that made electric cars the answer
A country fuelled by hydropower has become the world’s electric vehicle leader''

A forward thinking country.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/apr/19/norway-and-the-a-ha-moment-that-made-electric-cars-the-answer

[Muttley]

Interesting development for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles

https://www.theengineer.co.uk/metal-organic-framework-hydrogen-fuel-cell/

[SydneyRover]

Hydrogen is the fuel of the future but expensive to produce, there are some in Australia that want to set up huge solar farms to provide cheap energy to make the hydrogen that can be exported to countries without a lot of natural resources.

http://theleadsouthaustralia.com.au/industries/renewables/work-begins-on-adelaide-green-hydrogen-plant/

[drfchound]

''Norway and the A-ha moment that made electric cars the answer
A country fuelled by hydropower has become the world’s electric vehicle leader''

A forward thinking country.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/apr/19/norway-and-the-a-ha-moment-that-made-electric-cars-the-answer

Maybe you should go and live there.

That is a really interesting article but I particularly noted the paragraph that said it has been suggested that Norway’s encouragement of electric cars  amounts to tax cuts for the rich or a cut price second car.

Surely you can’t be in favour of tax cuts for the rich.

[selby]

  Glyn , your idea is more or less the British invention the air aluminium battery invented by an ex naval officer.
  It is now being developed I think by a Chinese company, in a test run one cassette that is inter changeable had a range of over a thousand miles in a family car and could be changed in the same time as filling up a tank of petrol.
  The problem is that the automobile industry has invested massively in  alternative battery technology and are reluctant to change.
  I read one report that a BMW car can charge its battery 80% at home  overnight for about £3 for a range of about 180 miles, but to get the same charge on one of the rapid charges at a motorway stop was over £47 costing more  a mile as against 14p a mile for the  diesel same model they tested.

[selby]

Syd, Corbyn will have a low mileage company car  for sale cheap.

[Ldr]

Syd, Corbyn will have a low mileage company car  for sale cheap.

Wont steer right though.....

[adamtherover]

Regardless of charging times or cables crossing pathways, 2 things to consider, the sheer cost of EVs is outrageous,  compared to petrol/diesel cars when you consider one important factor. The battery degrade over time considering they are just laptop batteries to an extent. A quick search on autotrader shows the cheapest EV on sale that wasnt a geewhiz, was an2011 model Nissan leaf. 6 grand, so that means the first time drivers are struggling if they are teens on low wages.  But the biggest problem and it headlines this on the advert! Range is only 50 miles between charge!!! Wtf!!!  So 6k for a city car, and that's the cheapest.  My brothers firm bought a 100k Tesla, only gets 200 miles from a charge now!
Price to buy, time of recharging, longevity of batteries, infrastructure to actually charge are currently a million miles away from being an alternative method of mass transport!!  Anyone thinking otherwise is living in cloud cuckoo land!

[drfchound]

Regardless of charging times or cables crossing pathways, 2 things to consider, the sheer cost of EVs is outrageous,  compared to petrol/diesel cars when you consider one important factor. The battery degrade over time considering they are just laptop batteries to an extent. A quick search on autotrader shows the cheapest EV on sale that wasnt a geewhiz, was an2011 model Nissan leaf. 6 grand, so that means the first time drivers are struggling if they are teens on low wages.  But the biggest problem and it headlines this on the advert! Range is only 50 miles between charge!!! Wtf!!!  So 6k for a city car, and that's the cheapest.  My brothers firm bought a 100k Tesla, only gets 200 miles from a charge now!
Price to buy, time of recharging, longevity of batteries, infrastructure to actually charge are currently a million miles away from being an alternative method of mass transport!!  Anyone thinking otherwise is living in cloud cuckoo land!

You are not wrong Adam.
That report that SR posted also backed up your point about people on low incomes.
It said that most people on low income are unable to afford an electric car.

[adamtherover]

Plus, not to forget where is the extra power coming from to charge 27 million cars currently on the UK roads? Every night!!  A Prius has about 9000 laptop batteries built into it, how many more power stations will be needed . If this is an environment saving issue, getting rid.of fossil fuel emissions etc, years ago, autocar did a report weighing up the green credentials of a new prius versus a 25 yr old merc taxi in Delhi, 300k miles on the clock... the winner,  the merc, simply due to the fact that it only has to.be built once and will run and run, wheres as, the prius takes a huge amount of resource to build, and its got a limited lifespan due to battery life.  They are built into the floor plan on many cars, so u can't just swop them out.  You would have to build the prius 3 or 4 times over to match the life of the merc, and that would still be going..

Plus, at what stage do we run out of lithium?   And have to come up.with an alternative alternative fuel?
They are years off main stream,  but hydrogen fuel cells seem potentially more user friendly ?

[drfchound]

You have reminded me of a Merc taxi that once took us to the airport in Cyprus.
I was chatting to the driver and noticed that the speedo showed just short of 800,000km.
The car drove like a dream and the drive4 said it hardly ever had a problem.

[SydneyRover]

People on low incomes couldn't afford petrol cars either my parents never had a car.

[adamtherover]

People on low incomes couldn't afford petrol cars either my parents never had a car.

I had a mini metro at 18 years of age,  earning 80 quid a week.  What was your point again in relation to the actual topic?

[SydneyRover]

It was a reply to those saying electric cars are expensive, they are but will fall in price when mass take up is achieved

[albie]

Latest state of play in the UK;
https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2020/04/the-number-of-hybrid-and-electric-vehicles-on-uk-roads-reaches-all-time-high/

The purchase costs will reduce quickly as a function of scale, and the reduction in battery costs. All new tech comes in premium price first, then flattens and spreads.

Sales reduced as a result of Covid-19 across the sector.
The question is what happens after the economic crisis recedes.

Exponential rates of growth will kick in going forward.

[SydneyRover]

Exactly and it will help the government acheive better air quality and should lead to lower incidents of cancer and lung disease.

[BillyStubbsTears]

''Norway and the A-ha moment that made electric cars the answer
A country fuelled by hydropower has become the world’s electric vehicle leader''

A forward thinking country.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/apr/19/norway-and-the-a-ha-moment-that-made-electric-cars-the-answer

Maybe you should go and live there.

That is a really interesting article but I particularly noted the paragraph that said it has been suggested that Norway’s encouragement of electric cars  amounts to tax cuts for the rich or a cut price second car.

Surely you can’t be in favour of tax cuts for the rich.

It's a no-brainer when you are trying to develop a mass market for a new product.

Initially, the product is very expensive because it is still not getting benefits from mass production.

You want policies to encourage mass uptake.

So you do that by giving incentives like tax breaks to bring the price down and expand the market of people who will buy it.

Clearly, initially that benefits the rich. Because they are the only ones who can afford a (still, relatively) expensive product.

But what it also does is to bring the product into the price range of the not-quite-so-rich. So you expand the market. So companies invest in bigger production facilities. So manufacture is more efficient. So the price comes down....

Hound. Just because we are on the left, we're not against polcies that will benefit the ricj in the short term. As long as the benefit everybody, even more in the long term. Personally, what I despise are policies advocated by the Right over the past two decades whch entrench wealth with the wealthy. I said last night that the single most disgusting thing that the Cameron Govt did was to remove direct money subsidies to Child Trust Funds, while using that saving to give massive tax breaks to deposits to those funds. That effectively took Govt money from the kids of the poorest and gave it to the kids of the richest. With no mechanism wehreby the poorest would ever gain any of that back.

But that's what Tories do. They look after the better off. Always have done, always will do.

[BillyStubbsTears]

People on low incomes couldn't afford petrol cars either my parents never had a car.

I had a mini metro at 18 years of age,  earning 80 quid a week.  What was your point again in relation to the actual topic?

If you were earning 80 quid a week at 18, I suspect you weren't in Sydney's parent's generation. Or if you were, you should have been driving a much better car.

[adamtherover]

Not quite sure how the actions of folk potentially 2 generations ago have any relevance to youngsters today trying to save up to buy their first old banger for 500 notes with dad sorting the insurance out!  In an EV world, that scenario doesn't exist.
Moving on from the kids, the EV family sized cars are decent 5 figure sums, the low cost 2nd hand market doesn't exist currently in the EV world?

[SydneyRover]

It was just a comparison of then to now and those complaining of the prices of batteries and the cars. Of course thety are expensive but as others have said that will change, my mate owned a taxi license in Cairns and the only time he made a real profit was when they had their first Toyota Prius hybrid. There will be maintenance savings due to the simplicity of the electric motor and when petrol prices go back up as it will people will save there. Higher initial purchase price reduced ongoing costs. We are not paying the full price of individual motor ownerhip especially diesels as the cost to peoples health needs to be factored in.