Electric Cars - a serious logistical question

[SydneyRover]

''Electric buses: Wales' first to hit the roads in Newport''

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-49374665

[albie]

Taxi's in London taking up electric:
https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/3079818/electric-taxis-have-saved-london-cabbies-gbp385m-on-fuel-costs-levc-claims

Ferries starting to swap over:
https://www.euractiv.com/section/shipping/news/worlds-largest-electric-ferry-enters-service-in-denmark/

You won't be able to afford not to soon enough!

[albie]

Policy announcement by Labour on electric cars;
https://labour.org.uk/press/john-mcdonnell-announces-interest-free-loans-electric-cars/

Interest free loans...now that is an offer!

[SydneyRover]

Both good stories Albie, it has to be the way to go.

[Donnywolf]

Maybe just seen a partial answer to my question on BBC (maybe Click)

Taiwanese people have thousands of Moped / Vespa bikes and they all run on electric which comes from 2 Batteries.

However they own the Scooters but rent the Batteries and when they are running low / running out they simply stop take out their tired Batteries at one of the 14000 recharging points and put them on to charge. Once they deposit 2 Batteries 2 more already charged once pop out - and they simply drop them in the Scooter and ride off

True they pay a small fee per week but it looks on paper a great idea. OK would need some work to get it to work Car wise but at least its a start by the look of it

[BillyStubbsTears]

Couldn't work with cars. The batteries are physically huge and are effectively built into the car.

[drfchound]

Maybe the Mercedes AA class is the answer.
Worth a look on google if you don’t know about it.

[albie]

The batteries are about 40% of the cost of an EV, and contain rare earth materials.
They are designed to be replaced and re-used, and have a useful life in other applications after they lose capacity in vehicle use.

Manufacturers will  want to reclaim the batteries as a key part of their business model.

Manufacturers like VW are designing a common chassis for their EV range, to enable modular removal and replacement.

The working life, charge cycle capability and extended range between recharge are all key areas of development which will improve rapidly over the near future.

It is more likely that the "battery swap" Donnywolf talks about  might not needed with the new generation of batteries.
Fine for small units in the meantime though.

A new breakthrough in charging times was announced this week;
https://www.themanufacturer.com/articles/engineering-breakthrough-cuts-electric-vehicle-charging-to-just-10-minutes/

[SydneyRover]

This certainly doesn't inspire confidence that the change will be orderly?

''Questions raised over UK's state-backed fund for electric car charging

The private equity firm appointed by the government to manage as much as £400m in investment in electric car charging points has awarded millions of pounds to a company in which it holds a controlling financial interest.''

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/08/questions-raised-over-state-backed-fund-for-electric-car-charging

[albie]

UK misses out to Germany with the new Tesla gigafactory;
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tesla/108395/tesla-gigafactory-europe-to-be-built-in-germany-not-uk-as-elon-musk-blames-brexit

Major blow, as this is the sunrise sector for transport manufacturing.

If the UK misses this new industrial revolution, then once tariffs are in place it will be more expensive to produce electric vehicles here, and to market them abroad.

[selby]

  Billy, the new invention of aluminium air battery is interchangeable with a cassette, existing cars can be converted, is a British invention, and gives a range of over a thousand miles to a family car at about 12p per mile.
 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby.

Wow. I hadn't seen that. That sounds like a game changer.

[selby]

  Billy, a very good article to read about it is clean technica uk man invents aluminum air battery in his garage, it is well worth a read for a couple of minutes.
  Ahem, you might want to click on the link to the Daily Mail article on the subject at the end of the article, just to research what the other lot are  reading.

[BobG]

People living in blocks of flats are going to have fun. Not. Likewise houses converted into bedsits. The need for parking spaces at charging points will grow exponentially as charging will continue to take longer than filling a tank. Ive got a mate lives in the US. Him and his Mrs have a big Tesla. They like it and he tells me the need to charge simply means they plan their journey with charging in mind. Whilst it is doing so, they have a cuppa and a rest so they feel better when they arrive. But I can't help wondering just how that experience will feel when everyone has leccy cars...

Another issue, of course, is just where are all the batteries going to come from? Cobalt, a vital ingredient, is in short supply now. It could be mined from the seabed, but think of the consequences....

BobG

[drfchound]

People living in blocks of flats are going to have fun. Not. Likewise houses converted into bedsits. The need for parking spaces at charging points will grow exponentially as charging will continue to take longer than filling a tank. Ive got a mate lives in the US. Him and his Mrs have a big Tesla. They like it and he tells me the need to charge simply means they plan their journey with charging in mind. Whilst it is doing so, they have a cuppa and a rest so they feel better when they arrive. But I can't help wondering just how that experience will feel when everyone has leccy cars...

Another issue, of course, is just where are all the batteries going to come from? Cobalt, a vital ingredient, is in short supply now. It could be mined from the seabed, but think of the consequences....

BobG

I suppose if it is mined from the seabed, the sea levels will drop as the water fills in the holes that the mining will create!

(Still can’t find that bloomin tongue in cheek emoji).

[dknward2]

The amount of colbolt needed is getting less and Tesla are aiming for a zero colbolt battery soon.

The air battery is a great idea but at the minute they haven't got the recharge technology so at the moment it's a throw away battery once it's sorted then it becomes decent

[SydneyRover]

link to new battery info

https://smallcaps.com.au/can-new-high-range-aluminium-air-cell-topple-lithium-ion-battery/

[RobTheRover]

The amount of colbolt needed is getting less and Tesla are aiming for a zero colbolt battery soon.

The air battery is a great idea but at the minute they haven't got the recharge technology so at the moment it's a throw away battery once it's sorted then it becomes decent

Aluminium air batteries arent a new invention.  They have been around for decades.  the problems with them have been the electrolyte was dangerous to health and they needed a pure aluminium to work.  This chap in his shed has developed a safe alternative electrolyte and it works with lower grade aluminium, so recycled cola cans work just fine.  Its very interesting stuff to make EVs viable for those without access to charging capabilities and also to reduce demand on the grid infrastructure.

We'll all be driving Austin Allegros in ten years time......

[Bentley Bullet]

Yes, but will they have the same 'vroom' as Allegros?

[Donnywolf]

The amount of colbolt needed is getting less and Tesla are aiming for a zero colbolt battery soon.

The air battery is a great idea but at the minute they haven't got the recharge technology so at the moment it's a throw away battery once it's sorted then it becomes decent

..... and they needed a pure aluminium to work.  This chap in his shed has developed a safe alternative electrolyte and it works with lower grade aluminium, so recycled cola cans work just fine.  Its very interesting stuff to make EVs viable for those without access to charging capabilities and also to reduce demand on the grid infrastructure.

 

... do you drop them into a Flux Capacitor as well ? That would be some "full circle"

[SydneyRover]

but what about the hysteresis loop?

[Axholme Lion]

Two charging points have just been installed where I work. Just above the outside cold water tap! 

[Donnywolf]

There are 10 or maybe its 12 in Thorne on the B&M McDees Aldi site and of course they are always full of Cars that dont need them

I have only seen 2 cars ever charging there - but being convenient for the Shops they are always full so anything that could mean people dont need out and out charging spots (or we all need them) would help though it seems a long long way off

[SydneyRover]

There are 10 or maybe its 12 in Thorne on the B&M McDees Aldi site and of course they are always full of Cars that dont need them

I have only seen 2 cars ever charging there - but being convenient for the Shops they are always full so anything that could mean people dont need out and out charging spots (or we all need them) would help though it seems a long long way off

When demand rises as they get cheaper this will all be solved, when petrol cars first arrived there wasn't a petrol station on every corner. If new battery technology turns out to be a winner it will all happen very quickly whether the combustion engine manufacturers like it or not DW. In Vietnam in the larger cities battery of the larger variety have been around a while and across Europe there are e bikes, scooters with cars being charged in rows.

[Axholme Lion]

There are 10 or maybe its 12 in Thorne on the B&M McDees Aldi site and of course they are always full of Cars that dont need them

I have only seen 2 cars ever charging there - but being convenient for the Shops they are always full so anything that could mean people dont need out and out charging spots (or we all need them) would help though it seems a long long way off

When demand rises as they get cheaper this will all be solved, when petrol cars first arrived there wasn't a petrol station on every corner. If new battery technology turns out to be a winner it will all happen very quickly whether the combustion engine manufacturers like it or not DW. In Vietnam in the larger cities battery of the larger variety have been around a while and across Europe there are e bikes, scooters with cars being charged in rows.

Can't see how you can charge your car if you live in a tower block though. Also I struggle to see it catching on in rural areas.

[SydneyRover]

A very long extension cord? 

private ownership of cars will reduce over time as it becomes cheaper and convenient to use go-get and similar, progress on this is not going to stop.

Advancement of solar panels, there ar already flexible ones means not to far away from vehicles being covered in them.

[Ldr]

Ground chargers? BMW now do wireless ones built into the ground. Personally I think the future will be using photo sensitive cells to skin cars

[dknward2]

People in tower blocks have car parks around all it would take is a charge unit and pay on card or the homes with electric cars get charged more for the car parking spot that would cover the charge

[selby]

Developers are already on the  win win situation for them. In London and the surrounding areas they are building estates and tower blocks with only a third of the properties having one parking spot each.
   When you acquire one of the properties, you qualify to enter a bidding process to acquire a parking spot, some are going for considerable amounts of money, the developers make a killing while saying they are encouraging saving the planet, It is a great idea for the developers, they make loads of dosh for little outlay ( a little bit of tarmac) and who gives a fig about the peasants travelling about, more room on the roads for the elite ( didn't a labour minister suggest them having their own motor lane on the motorways into London in Blair's time) to get them into the city without hindrance.

[Axholme Lion]

Developers are already on the  win win situation for them. In London and the surrounding areas they are building estates and tower blocks with only a third of the properties having one parking spot each.
   When you acquire one of the properties, you qualify to enter a bidding process to acquire a parking spot, some are going for considerable amounts of money, the developers make a killing while saying they are encouraging saving the planet, It is a great idea for the developers, they make loads of dosh for little outlay ( a little bit of tarmac) and who gives a fig about the peasants travelling about, more room on the roads for the elite ( didn't a labour minister suggest them having their own motor lane on the motorways into London in Blair's time) to get them into the city without hindrance.

Is that like in North Korea?