Rwanda

[Branton Red]

This will never happen. It will be prevented for the reasons given by Tyke1962.

Sure Johnson knows this. He's announcing it now to deflect from partygate and to try to bolster his support ahead of the local elections whose results are crucial to his political survival.

There is a real problem here with criminal gangs putting vulnerable peoples' lives at risk, not just crossing the Channel but getting to the French coast from Africa/Asia.

The solution is international co-operation in going after the gangs and closing them down. Remember the outcry when a boat crossing the Channel sunk with major loss of life? The political will was there then across national boundaries to punish the particular criminals involved. The same approach is needed on a wider scale against ALL the trafficking gangs.

[BillyStubbsTears]

This from an ITV political journalist.

https://mobile.twitter.com/AnushkaAsthana/status/1514652467908251656

What a f**king shower of shite this lot in power truly are.

[drfchound]

Hardly surprising comments given that Astana worked for the Guardian, that well’ known right wing rag.

[tyke1962]

"Once again this subject becomes a political football ."

The point, the whole point and nothing but the point.

This has the square root of f**k all to do with finding a solution. It's got everything to do with pandering to the dregs of society.

Who are the dregs of society Billy ?

[BillyStubbsTears]

"Once again this subject becomes a political football ."

The point, the whole point and nothing but the point.

This has the square root of f**k all to do with finding a solution. It's got everything to do with pandering to the dregs of society.

Who are the dregs of society Billy ?

Those who applaud this sort of blatantly racist posturing. Pat knows damn f**king well that this will never fly. She's doing it so she can whip up the minority of the electorate who would be delighted to see asylum seekers shipped off to a place that the Govt itself last year said had human rights violations.

I fully accept that we, along with the whole of Europe, have a serious issue to deal with on immigration. This isn't a serious solution. It's designed to play to people who don't have an interest in a serious solution, but want to see us lashing out at immigrants.

[River Don]

Pud,

Yes, there is a solution.
1) Open a centre in France to process applications, adequately staffed.
2) Deal with applications promptly.
3) Allow the 75% who succeed to cross by ferry on receiving approval.
4) Advise those who fail (after appeal if relevant) on alternatives (and support) for their situation.
5) Make sure that the criteria are fully understood in the countries of origin to prevent pointless attempts.

In a nutshell, that is it.

Trouble is, the government don't really want to sort it out, they want to use it to appeal to their base.....and deflect from their corruption.

What sort of numbers would that generate annually?

Way more than 300,000 I'll be bound. I know we are tied into the treadmill of never ending growth but it will still put a hell of a strain on a nation that isn't coping very well with urban pollution, congestion, lack of housing, increasing environmental problems most noticeably flooding. Taken together with aging infrastructure generally and an energy crisis.

Let us not kid ourselves. It would be a massive, massive challenge.

[tyke1962]

"Once again this subject becomes a political football ."

The point, the whole point and nothing but the point.

This has the square root of f**k all to do with finding a solution. It's got everything to do with pandering to the dregs of society.

Who are the dregs of society Billy ?

Those who applaud this sort of blatantly racist posturing. Pat knows damn f**king well that this will never fly. She's doing it so she can whip up the minority of the electorate who would be delighted to see asylum seekers shipped off to a place that the Govt itself last year said had human rights violations.

I fully accept that we, along with the whole of Europe, have a serious issue to deal with on immigration. This isn't a serious solution. It's designed to play to people who don't have an interest in a serious solution, but want to see us lashing out at immigrants.

I'm not actually feeling that to be honest , i think this is so desperate it's not even going to play in to the hands it's meant to play in to in my opinion .

Johnson has a history of crumbling and reversing anything when opinion goes against him .

There isn't the consensus for this by any stretch of the imagination in my opinion .

I'm a much tougher immigration man but this doesn't fly with me and I suspect it won't fly with a good enough number of less liberal voters to get  Johnson out of Dodge .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.
Watch how it is played as it crumbles.

When it's overturned in the courts, Johnson and Patel will go back to the Brexit line. "This is what the people want but the Liberal Elite are taking it away from you."

It's the only line they have. It's the Culture War. Just like Brexit was.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Fair play to some Tory MPs for calling this shite out for what it is.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AvaSantina/status/1514558050111262724

Although he's also on the "unscrupulous lawyers" Culture War project.

Imagine having lawyers who actually ensure that due legal process is adhered to!

[albie]

River Don,

What are you talking about?
The method of assessment does not generate more claims than are permissible under the regulations.

The number of possible migrants is set by the rules of eligibility.
Most of those coming to the UK have a legitimate claim under the current criteria.

If you think that the criteria need to be revised, that is a completely different argument to the acceptance of those who meet the rules as they stand.

What Johnson is saying is that applicants who arrive by unapproved means of transport lose their right to consideration under the present rules. Those arriving in inflatables do so because they have no other options.
That position will not survive a legal challenge.

He knows this, but wants to be defeated in court, so he can follow the culture wars line against lawyers and human rights considerations.

Take the position of those who arrive at UK airports and claim for asylum, or refugees from the Ukraine war.
People in the UK have offered hospitality for those escaping the war. These traumatised people do not arrive in inflatable craft.

He is expelling people seeking sanctuary without consideration of the merits of their claim. This is a fundamental breach of their rights.

[River Don]

Albie

I don't know about assessments, criteria, rules, regulations and eligibility...

But it is obvious that if your suggestions were implemented, it would act as a huge draw.

Unless you're suggesting they are going to turn around thousands who don't meet the criteria, which would only create more shanty towns of desperate people on the northern French coast.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The most disgusting part of this is that Patel's parents were immigrants from next door to Rwanda. They came to Britain for a better life when Idi Amin was persecuting them. They were allowed in by a Tory Govt that had the moral backbone to face down racists like Powell, even though it would have been in their electoral interests to close the doors.

Patel is presiding over a f**king shambles of a response to the Ukraine crisis. So far, 250,000 people in the UK have offered to house Ukranian refugees. We've issued visas to just 1,200. Patel says it's because it takes time to get the system right. Yet she rushed out a half-baked Rwanda scheme to prop up Govt support from racists. She is utterly without a soul. 

[SydneyRover]

''The dead cat strategy, or deadcatting, is the introduction of a dramatic, shocking, or sensationalist topic to divert discourse away from a more damaging topic.[1][2] The strategy, or at least the "dead cat" metaphor to describe it, is particularly associated with Australian political strategist Lynton Crosby.[3][4]''

''johnson employed Crosby as his campaign manager during the 2008 and 2012 London mayoral elections, and wrote of his advice that:

There is one thing that is absolutely certain about throwing a dead cat on the dining room table – and I don’t mean that people will be outraged, alarmed, disgusted. That is true, but irrelevant. The key point, says my Australian friend, is that everyone will shout, ‘Jeez, mate, there’s a dead cat on the table!’ In other words, they will be talking about the dead cat – the thing you want them to talk about – and they will not be talking about the issue that has been causing you so much grief.[4]''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_cat_strategy

it must be difficult to find something with a worst smell than johnson and his government

[BobG]

Can I ask a genuine question please? I  really would like to know of examples of a similar size 'distraction' tactic employed by Mrs.Thatcher, Tony Blair and/or Gordon Brown. Each of them had big problems to deal with in the Poll Tax, Weapons of Mass Destruction and the Financial Crisis. I'd like to see how Fatso compares.

BobG

So, given the deafening silence in response to my question, it's pretty obvious Fatso is in a league of his own when it comes to duplicity then.

Thanks

BobG

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Pud,

Yes, there is a solution.
1) Open a centre in France to process applications, adequately staffed.
2) Deal with applications promptly.
3) Allow the 75% who succeed to cross by ferry on receiving approval.
4) Advise those who fail (after appeal if relevant) on alternatives (and support) for their situation.
5) Make sure that the criteria are fully understood in the countries of origin to prevent pointless attempts.

In a nutshell, that is it.

Trouble is, the government don't really want to sort it out, they want to use it to appeal to their base.....and deflect from their corruption.

They certainly used to do some of this (not public knowledge because politically it's tricky).

But it doesn't solve the problem entirely. How do you limit it, is it 75% of 5 million, 5000???

[wilts rover]

There wont be anyone not fleeing a war zone because of anything Johnson does.

But like most political schemes he has it will cost the taxpayer a fortune and cause more problems than it solves.

Hardly any refugees come here anyway. Look at Ukraine - what is it were have taken in 0.01% or something like that?

I think those who are keen on this should be the ones who pay for it.

[BigH]

A new low for Johnson, Patel et al.

April Fool p*ss takes as 'policy'.

In December 2019 this country faced two awful choices for Prime Minister; Corbyn and Johnson. Thankfully, Corbyn was rejected, is now gone and with good riddance.

However, I for one never thought that the choice of Johnson as PM would play out this badly. What we're witnessing now is just unbelievable.

[SydneyRover]

''FactCheck Q&A: how much was spent on the Cambodia refugee deal and how many were settled?''

''I think it is more accurate to view the resettlement agreement amount holistically as totalling $55 million. This is because the “development assistance” was tied to the resettlement agreement. Putting any dispute as to the exact monetary contribution aside, it is correct that it has assisted very few refugees. – Maria O'Sullivan''

https://theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-how-much-was-spent-on-the-cambodia-refugee-deal-and-how-many-were-settled-68807#:~:text=At%20the%20time%20it%20was%20signed%2C%20immigration%20minister%20Scott%20Morrison,providing%20in%20aid%20to%20Cambodia.

[wilts rover]

Home Office officals refuse to back Patel's plan - as they dont believe it provides value for money for the tax payer - but she is going ahead with it anyway (since when did the woman sacked for among other things, offering taxpayers money to the Israeli Army, care about tax payers money)

https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1515031265044537357

[BillyStubbsTears]

Home Office officals refuse to back Patel's plan - as they dont believe it provides value for money for the tax payer - but she is going ahead with it anyway (since when did the woman sacked for among other things, offering taxpayers money to the Israeli Army, care about tax payers money)

https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1515031265044537357

That confirms what I posted last night from the ITN journalist.

Can you begin to imagine what it must be like working under Patel? Fair play to the senior civil servant for refusing to sign off this farrago. I suspect he'll be having a lovely time at work from here on.

[drfchound]

Home Office officals refuse to back Patel's plan - as they dont believe it provides value for money for the tax payer - but she is going ahead with it anyway (since when did the woman sacked for among other things, offering taxpayers money to the Israeli Army, care about tax payers money)

https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1515031265044537357

A few months ago I posted something that Cummings had suggested but one prominent poster on here came on to tell me that advisors advise but Ministers decide.

[tyke1962]

Tyke.
Watch how it is played as it crumbles.

When it's overturned in the courts, Johnson and Patel will go back to the Brexit line. "This is what the people want but the Liberal Elite are taking it away from you."

It's the only line they have. It's the Culture War. Just like Brexit was.

Today's Mail is quite critical of the plan Billy .

I firmly believe Johnson has misjudged this one and it's going to rebound spectacularly .

Next month's council and the upcoming Wakefield by election will tell us where we are in my opinion .

[redwine]

A new low for Johnson, Patel et al.

April Fool p*ss takes as 'policy'.

In December 2019 this country faced two awful choices for Prime Minister; Corbyn and Johnson. Thankfully, Corbyn was rejected, is now gone and with good riddance.

However, I for one never thought that the choice of Johnson as PM would play out this badly. What we're witnessing now is just unbelievable.
[/quote

I did!

[BillyStubbsTears]

It was always inevitable that a Johnson Govt would play out like this.

A combination of incompetence, bombast, amorality and sheer populist nastiness. It's what the man is, so of course that was the sort of Govt he would lead.

[danumdon]

Truly a shocking low even for a Johnson government, i do believe most people on here can see this for what it is, and as a distraction tactic amongst the worst you could ever hope to pull off. The fact that it will fail at its fist legal hurdle would relegate this to the junk box that contains the vast majority of this governments policies. This is not even a policy that any Tory worth the tag could ever agree and hope to progress.

We all know this a bigger problem than what this government is ever going to be able to cope with and i don't see many workable solutions coming in from the opposition that will allow this trafficking issue to be properly dealt with. If we can't even agree a sensible co-operation with the French then the can is still being kicked down the road, regardless of whatever colour of government.

[tyke1962]

Truly a shocking low even for a Johnson government, i do believe most people on here can see this for what it is, and as a distraction tactic amongst the worst you could ever hope to pull off. The fact that it will fail at its fist legal hurdle would relegate this to the junk box that contains the vast majority of this governments policies. This is not even a policy that any Tory worth the tag could ever agree and hope to progress.

We all know this a bigger problem than what this government is ever going to be able to cope with and i don't see many workable solutions coming in from the opposition that will allow this trafficking issue to be properly dealt with. If we can't even agree a sensible co-operation with the French then the can is still being kicked down the road, regardless of whatever colour of government.

Totally agree and it's high time this issue had a root and branch debate and a workable solution found for everyone .

While ever it doesn't happen the far right and the liberal left will attempt to gain politically out of it and neither of them are anywhere near coming up with a workable solution for voters to tick the box of their choice on this issue .

[i_ateallthepies]

Whilst ever there remains such disparity of wealth between nations the 'problem' of illegal immigration will always be with us.  It is natural for any person struggling to live to want to improve their lot and nations like the UK will be a lure to many.
Whether immigration is good for a country or not is an entirely separate debate (I absolutely believe it enriches societies), but population density I do believe is a problem for the UK now so I'll leave it at that.

Trying to contain the constant flow of immigrants is costly and ineffective, surely then, the only viable solution to the problem is to work to eradicate poverty in the countries where people struggle to survive.  I can see many obstacles to this ever being achieved but without it illegal immigration will forever be with us.

[wilts rover]

Once again people mixing up economic migration with refugees fleeing war and persectution.

As previously posted 75% or those crossing the channel are confirmed as genuine refugees, that is fleeing war and persecution in their home country. The 25% who are not, but are judged to be economic migrants, are returned to their country of origin.

It is not, nor ever has been, illegal to seek refugee status in this or in any other democratic country allined to the UN (although the Tories are attempting to change that).

It would be helpful when you want to solve 'the problem' you are accurate and truthful on what 'the problem' is.

[tyke1962]

Whilst ever there remains such disparity of wealth between nations the 'problem' of illegal immigration will always be with us.  It is natural for any person struggling to live to want to improve their lot and nations like the UK will be a lure to many.
Whether immigration is good for a country or not is an entirely separate debate (I absolutely believe it enriches societies), but population density I do believe is a problem for the UK now so I'll leave it at that.

Trying to contain the constant flow of immigrants is costly and ineffective, surely then, the only viable solution to the problem is to work to eradicate poverty in the countries where people struggle to survive.  I can see many obstacles to this ever being achieved but without it illegal immigration will forever be with us.

Well that's the starting point isn't it and can I add US and UK foreign policy to that which also creates asylum seekers on a massive scale .

Don't offer a starving country fish to eat offer them a fleet of fishing boats .

Wealth distribution or lack of it resides in the UK and fuels right wing views .

People living week to week will resent competition for jobs , houses , schools and NHS waiting lists and it's high time the liberal left understood that .

These are conversations that are not easy because to stick your head up you risk getting called all sorts of things but none the less they need to be debated .

The solution is a win - win for everyone and not what's presented right now .

There's a vast area in the middle between right and left but whilst we are only presented with the right and left extremes we will continue to go around in circles on this matter .

[glosterred]

Seems A significant number of Labour supporters agree with the move to send asylum seekers to Rwanda