Proportional Representation

[Glyn_Wigley]

Something that virtually guarantees coalition governments is as far from a dictatorship as you can get.

Good to see hound realised what a stupid thing it was to say and removed it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

There's a simple way of starving extremists out of the system. Set a bar of 5% or so of votes as a minimum before any party gets an MP. It would need tweaking for regional parties, but that's not beyond the wit of man..

But then it isn't true PR as you say you want it; and just who gets to decide what is 'extreme' and what isn't

Glyn. I think you and Albie are misunderstanding the point. It wouldn't be anyone choosing to define what is extremist. It would be a 5% or a 2.5% or whatever level blanket requirement for all parties. Left, right, authoritarian, libertarian, xenophobic, religion based or raving loonies.

[danumdon]

So in this thread we have gone,

We need PR it's democratic, everyone needs to have their vote count.

PR will prevent extremists from getting in because its democratic,

PR will give extremist representation for the first time,

PR will need to have a set bar to prevent extremists getting in,

PR will prevent all from having their vote count because we need to set a bar to prevent nasty's

PR needs to be implemented if your party will benefit from it,

PR needs to be filtered,

Democracy is in danger if we change to the wrong system

FPTP keep's its head down and sneaks onward because everything else also has its failings.


For what its worth, The PR and government system in France has just slapped Macron in the face with a wet fish. The voting public has just decided that even though we voted you in as president because we just couldn't go down the road of an extreme politician being president, we just don't trust you enough to make the right choices for this country.So we are tying your weak French arms and crippling the country of any sort of progressive governance for the foreseeable.

I know the system would be different but who would want this type of a situation here with a botched PR creating a lame duck parliament?

[BillyStubbsTears]

DD.
The French system is entirely different from ours. It's far more like the American system in separating the Executive (the section that tries to run the Government -the President or PM) from the legislature (the section that passes or blocks laws - Parliament or Congress).

That can frequently produce a situation where the Executive is at loggerheads with the Legislature.

We don't have that separation. The PM who runs the Government has to have a majority in Parliament. We have had at least 4 occasions in the past 50 years where no party has had a working majority in the Commons, and the PM has had to negotiate with minority parties to hold power (Callaghan in 76-79, Major in the mid-90s, Cameron in 2010-15 and May in 2017-19.)

So it's not that unusual for us.

What PR would do is to prevent the shockingly undemocratic scenario where Blair, Thatcher or Johnson could get whatever legislation through Parliament that they wanted, without ever winning more that 35-43% of the vote in a General Election. That is an outrage against democracy. Unfettered power with 60% of the electorate voting against you.

No PR system is perfect but every one is fairer than that.

[danumdon]

BST, the point i was making was that even though the French syetm is separate executive and legislative governance the PR element of the legislative has meant that the Executive now cannot get its program through the chamber without cooperation from others, in this case the others will extract a very large price for anything to get voted into stature.

I'm aware you don't like the FPTP voting system because of the "democratic deficit" that allows a party to win with a low overall percentage, but is this still not democracy? the winner takes all. even in this system the majority can come together and create a coalition, if they can't then that means that not enough people think along the same lines to allow this majority to rule, is that not democratic?. Both major partied have governed off this system in the past, i never heard any debate from either about it being unfair and undemocratic, they just got on with it.

Is it not a democratic thing that other parties have arrived at the top table and taken their chances to govern , be it devolved power (SNP) or is this now a big inconvenience to Labour because it prevents them from possibly ever having a large enough majority to govern by themselves in future?

Also,what do you do with the sometimes biggest majority who decide to not bother voting? in the past some of the lowest voting percentages have come from elections that were PR based, i know some might of found those elections uninspiring but what does that tell you?

I think history also tells us that on the occasions when we have had coalition politics we have had unpredictability and drift with legislation being hampered and amended to the point where its become ineffective and unworkable.

I think under the present system you should have a rerun of the election to ensure the winner gets a proper majority, it would exercise the minds of the voters to ensure this happened and they could also be given time to properly interrogate the parties and their manifestos.

[SydneyRover]

There's a simple way of starving extremists out of the system. Set a bar of 5% or so of votes as a minimum before any party gets an MP. It would need tweaking for regional parties, but that's not beyond the wit of man..

But then it isn't true PR as you say you want it; and just who gets to decide what is 'extreme' and what isn't

Glyn. I think you and Albie are misunderstanding the point. It wouldn't be anyone choosing to define what is extremist. It would be a 5% or a 2.5% or whatever level blanket requirement for all parties. Left, right, authoritarian, libertarian, xenophobic, religion based or raving loonies.

There should be no tweaking of any voting system to prevent those that want to stand from standing, we have had long debates about protecting democracy and have recently discussed voter ID which is arguably deliberately designed to do exactly this. Impediments to stand for election should be the same for all not just those that can raise enough money to pay for fb scraping and advertising. I don't see any reference to members of a proscribed organisation in the link below but I would doubt if proper consideration was given to that effect and provided it was not used as an electioneering tool then possibly it should be included.

''Standing for Parliament''

https://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/vote-in-general-elections/standing/

[SydneyRover]

Rerunning elections till a result satisfies a particular bloc, what the hell!

[drfchound]

Something that virtually guarantees coalition governments is as far from a dictatorship as you can get.

Good to see hound realised what a stupid thing it was to say and removed it.

Well, good that it was me who edited my post this time.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Something that virtually guarantees coalition governments is as far from a dictatorship as you can get.

Good to see hound realised what a stupid thing it was to say and removed it.

Well, good that it was me who edited my post this time.

Oh, your memory's come back now, has it? Quelle surprise. I bet it doesn't remember the post you claimed that I'd done that to but never actually demonstrated. Because it never happened.

[ravenrover]

Now Macron does not have a majority I wonder if that wll affect the suuport he promises Ukraine? BE it EU membership or Arms/aid supply?

[BillyStubbsTears]

It'll affect it if LePen ends up with any influence.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I think some fudged PR system will come into play to appease the electorate. What won't happen is anything that will make the funding of parties something that comes from the treasury, and boot out all the other ways money oils the wheels. And so the absolute mockery of democracy and the "free world" goes on - of course it does and always will.

Why do we bother tinkering with which system of elitist control we are victims to?

[drfchound]

Something that virtually guarantees coalition governments is as far from a dictatorship as you can get.

Good to see hound realised what a stupid thing it was to say and removed it.

Well, good that it was me who edited my post this time.

Oh, your memory's come back now, has it? Quelle surprise. I bet it doesn't remember the post you claimed that I'd done that to but never actually demonstrated. Because it never happened.

If you recall correctly I said at the time that I didn’t know how you did it so how the hell could I demonstrate what had happened.

[SydneyRover]

Something that virtually guarantees coalition governments is as far from a dictatorship as you can get.

Good to see hound realised what a stupid thing it was to say and removed it.

Well, good that it was me who edited my post this time.

Oh, your memory's come back now, has it? Quelle surprise. I bet it doesn't remember the post you claimed that I'd done that to but never actually demonstrated. Because it never happened.

If you recall correctly I said at the time that I didn’t know how you did it so how the hell could I demonstrate what had happened.

Maybe it was the News of the World that hacked your account hound, I've always suspected someone was doing it

[drfchound]

Something that virtually guarantees coalition governments is as far from a dictatorship as you can get.

Good to see hound realised what a stupid thing it was to say and removed it.

Well, good that it was me who edited my post this time.

Oh, your memory's come back now, has it? Quelle surprise. I bet it doesn't remember the post you claimed that I'd done that to but never actually demonstrated. Because it never happened.

If you recall correctly I said at the time that I didn’t know how you did it so how the hell could I demonstrate what had happened.

Maybe it was the News of the World that hacked your account hound, I've always suspected someone was doing it

More likely the Guardian Syd seeing as Glyn thinks I am making stuff up.

You are hardly a reliable font of knowledge yourself.
Do you still think that Rolls Royce own the Bentley brand.

[SydneyRover]

Something that virtually guarantees coalition governments is as far from a dictatorship as you can get.

Good to see hound realised what a stupid thing it was to say and removed it.

Well, good that it was me who edited my post this time.

Oh, your memory's come back now, has it? Quelle surprise. I bet it doesn't remember the post you claimed that I'd done that to but never actually demonstrated. Because it never happened.

If you recall correctly I said at the time that I didn’t know how you did it so how the hell could I demonstrate what had happened.

Maybe it was the News of the World that hacked your account hound, I've always suspected someone was doing it

More likely the Guardian Syd seeing as Glyn thinks I am making stuff up.

You are hardly a reliable font of knowledge yourself.
Do you still think that Rolls Royce own the Bentley brand.

I'm happy to say I made a silly mistake over that hound, but you stretching credibility accusing someone of editing your own comments is something else.

[drfchound]

Something that virtually guarantees coalition governments is as far from a dictatorship as you can get.

Good to see hound realised what a stupid thing it was to say and removed it.

Well, good that it was me who edited my post this time.

Oh, your memory's come back now, has it? Quelle surprise. I bet it doesn't remember the post you claimed that I'd done that to but never actually demonstrated. Because it never happened.

If you recall correctly I said at the time that I didn’t know how you did it so how the hell could I demonstrate what had happened.

Maybe it was the News of the World that hacked your account hound, I've always suspected someone was doing it

More likely the Guardian Syd seeing as Glyn thinks I am making stuff up.

You are hardly a reliable font of knowledge yourself.
Do you still think that Rolls Royce own the Bentley brand.

I'm happy to say I made a silly mistake over that hound, but you stretching credibility accusing someone of editing your own comments is something else.

So why would that involve the News of the World?

[SydneyRover]

I guess you have to start being honest with yourself hound.

[drfchound]

I guess you have to start being honest with yourself hound.

Haha.  Says the man who left the UK “because it is shit” but still can’t let go and feels the need to talk about it every day.
Look in the mirror.

[Glyn_Wigley]

If you recall correctly I said at the time that I didn’t know how you did it so how the hell could I demonstrate what had happened.

And if you recall correctly I never asked how I was supposed to have done anything - because I know I never did anything. I repeatedly asked you to show me the post I made where I was supposed to have done what you claimed.

You never did.

Because we both know I didn't do anything of the sort.

[SydneyRover]

I guess you have to start being honest with yourself hound.

Haha.  Says the man who left the UK “because it is shit” but still can’t let go and feels the need to talk about it every day.
Look in the mirror.

There you go in your make believe world if you can show where I ever said that knock yourself out.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I guess you have to start being honest with yourself hound.

Haha.  Says the man who left the UK “because it is shit” but still can’t let go and feels the need to talk about it every day.
Look in the mirror.

There you go in your make believe world if you can show where I ever said that knock yourself out.

When he can't show you anything because it doesn't exist, he'll come out with 'you know when you did'.

[selby]

  Oh it did happen on more than one occasion, as I did prove to Hound on a post of mine.
  Clever at the time must admit, but sussed.

[SydneyRover]

hmmm, I can see where it started to go wrong now

[selby]

  Yes you can Syd, Hound was shown a post that had been changed buddy, and he knows it happened to the two of us, and probably a few more along the way.

[SydneyRover]

hound's doing ok with a spade, he doesn't need the jcb

[selby]

  Going back on subject, just my own personal opinion for what it is worth, just forget about it, you have more chance of seeing Rocking Horse poo, a more relevant subject should be the alterations to constituency boundaries which will be much more relevant in the next election, especially to the Labour marginals  in the London area.

[selby]

  Syd there is one thing you can say about Hound, at least he is aiming to dig in the right areas.

[SydneyRover]

  Syd there is one thing you can say about Hound, at least he is aiming to dig in the right areas.

whatever selby as long as you're happy together is all that matters

[Glyn_Wigley]

  Yes you can Syd, Hound was shown a post that had been changed buddy, and he knows it happened to the two of us, and probably a few more along the way.

Funny it's only the two of you who's seen whatever it is. I'd love to see it. Here's an invitation - show it to everybody and completely humiliate me. Go on, I dare you.

PS You do know that you can edit your own post within a short period of time and it won't say that it's been altered, and that someone can quote you whilst you're changing something and it'll retain the original posting don't you? I do hope this isn't going to turn out to be relating to this otherwise it'll be you that looks the fool.