Every day brings new evidence that Brexit was a fraud, reverse it now.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Why don't people get that sorting out the UK's bill for contracted commitments is an obligation. It has to be sorted out. Discussing the future trade relationship is not an obligation at all. This is why the EU is insisting - and is right to insist - on the divorce bill being sorted out first. Why on Earth should they give us anything in a trade deal that they don't have to give and then have the UK stiff them in the obligatory negotiations - loads of Brexiters have been mouthing off about not giving them a penny if they don't give us a good deal, who can blame them for making sure the UK is committed to its obligations before giving us anything at all?

That hits the nail on the head.

Boris spouting off about how they can whistle for the money. Rees-Mogg saying that we don't owe them a penny.

These are contractual agreements that we have freely signed up to. You don't simply walk away from that becuase you've changed your mind. Or at least if you do, the other party has a right to pull out its own big sticks.

If we'd shown good faith on this issue, then maybe we could have moved on whilst the detail was still being sorted. But as an EU negotiator, if I hear those shouts from Johnson and Rees-Mogg, I think "No WAY are we going even close to helping you sort out your problems until we've tied you down on this one."

The idiotic wing of the Tory party have brought this situation on themselves. It's their job to dig us all out of it now. Or move aside and let someone else sort out their shite.

[ravenrover]

We should go down the French version of Frexit and just stay in the EU Oh we like that bit of legislation we can get some dosh out of it, oh that bit would upset the Farmers/Fishermen we'll ignore that, do we really have to do exactly what that bit says  no we'll just implement the bits we like and ignore the rest. They've been doing it for years, but oh no not us we implement everything to the last letter and then find a few more letters we never knew existed.
I wonder how many of the Glastonbury masses  of 2016 like us, didn't bother voting, would it have made any difference to the final outcome?

[SydneyRover]

This article from the Financial Times explains how competition from within the EU rather than without has made UK companies that have been able to modernise and become competitive have not only survived they have become stronger.

https://www.ft.com/content/202a60c0-cfd8-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377

[SydneyRover]

Here's a simple enough petition for those that don't want to leave the EU, please sign and share.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/200427

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

I beg to differ actually. If the negotiations haven't concluded by this time next year, I reckon there's a third option. The classic British fudge.

Not re-visit the decision (in terms of having another referendum). But delay the Leave date. Kick the can down the road "whilst we deal with the plan for our future relationship with Europe, which has proved far harder than we thought it would be."

Of course, the can might get kicked down the road for a long, long time....

That'd be curtains for May. The Tory Right would knife her. Which is why she's so keen to write the precise time and date of leaving into law.

But if we really haven't got far in the negotiations by this time next year, it's the only sane way forward. There's no appetite in the country or Parliament for a no deal Brexit. And no-one can survive politically if they call for the whole Brecit vote to be overturned. So, it'll be a good old pragmatic British compromise. Principles put on hold for the greater good of the country. The sort of approach that made Britain the strongest country in the world while everyone else was tearing themselves apart over ideology.

I suppose you could say that May's Florence Speech was a step in that direction, even though I don't think that was her intention. The "transition period" could end up being a long time.

TRB. Agreed.

Although the problem with the Florence speech was that, in front of all the EU leaders she very correctly said,"Yes, we WILL pay what we owe you," but when she got back to London and was faced with her more rabid MPs, she said that she'd meant no such thing. Because if she'd told the MPs that she's agreed that we have to pay £50bn just to square away what we owe, she'd be out on her ear.

You can kind of see why the EU negotiators are getting a bit pissed off with us, no?