Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: Silkscarf on January 14, 2024, 08:49:13 am
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Simple question. What constitutes improvement on last season when we finished 18th?
We hoped for playoffs but that’s not happening. So what would be a reasonable season from this viewpoint now?
Top half would be good. That’s still possible.
13th-17th disappointing but shows progress.
18th-22nd failure.
23rd-24th catastrophic.
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It should be noted that Man City are ten points worse off than they were at this stage last season so although we are disappointed it isn’t just us.
(Tongue in cheek emoji would be here if we had one).
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We have to finish the season strongly. The last dozen games or so is key. We need to carry over some positive form into next season.
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Let’s be honest. This season has been an utter disaster from what the club (and McCann) told us they wanted to achieve at the start of it. I just want it over now. It’s been beyond grim for the most part.
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We have improved slightly, which should be expected with extra funds being pumped in.
McCanns current points per game this time around is 1.22 but this is bolstered by cup games, it’s only 1.04 in the league. Schofield managed 1.03 and McSheffrey 1.17.
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On a purely points basis, we are 9 points behind last season.
We currently have 28 points from 27 games.
This time last season we had 37 points from 27 games.
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Obviously 23th or 24th is disaster, and it’s a real possibility.
However if we avoid the drop then improvement to me would be more clean sheets, I’d celebrate a clean sheet as much as a victory because this has been our massive issue for 3 years.
Stop conceding, clearing crosses and looking solid at the back…. we can finally say we’ve turned a corner.
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Not getting into which manager is better but it does make you wonder how the other recent managers would have fared with what we are led to believe is more player budget support.
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Mccann has had a lot more money to spend than the last 3 manager we've had.
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He has, but the majority of the squad is still players that were signed when we were signing poor players.
The recruitment this year has been good and the new players are significantly better than the ones we had.
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Not getting into which manager is better but it does make you wonder how the other recent managers would have fared with what we are led to believe is more player budget support.
Was there was any increase in the budget . Let’s face it if we’re paying more on wages than this is worrying as results don’t justify it ! I imo players should get large win bonuses if this is what encourages results .
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Not getting into which manager is better but it does make you wonder how the other recent managers would have fared with what we are led to believe is more player budget support.
Was there was any increase in the budget . Let’s face it if we’re paying more on wages than this is worrying as results don’t justify it ! I imo players should get large win bonuses if this is what encourages results .
Of course the budget increased, we’ve signed all these players without really anyone leaving. So every one of these players are due to an increase in budget.
Our wage bill must be massive with the number of players we have, if McCann can reduce the numbers next season whilst still having the same wage bill the squad will be much smaller but full of better quality
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Not getting into which manager is better but it does make you wonder how the other recent managers would have fared with what we are led to believe is more player budget support.
Was there was any increase in the budget . Let’s face it if we’re paying more on wages than this is worrying as results don’t justify it ! I imo players should get large win bonuses if this is what encourages results .
Players should give everything irrespective of financial incentive. If they don't they're not dedicated sportsmen and are in the wrong job.
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Not getting into which manager is better but it does make you wonder how the other recent managers would have fared with what we are led to believe is more player budget support.
Was there was any increase in the budget . Let’s face it if we’re paying more on wages than this is worrying as results don’t justify it ! I imo players should get large win bonuses if this is what encourages results .
Of course the budget increased, we’ve signed all these players without really anyone leaving. So every one of these players are due to an increase in budget.
Our wage bill must be massive with the number of players we have, if McCann can reduce the numbers next season whilst still having the same wage bill the squad will be much smaller but full of better quality
Or he will be paying average players more money?
We are playing a far more attractive style of football than last season. Which is down to the manager. It's also one that lets more goals in. Which is down to...
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At the moment people want winning football the games littered with teams what got relegated or dropped out the league trying to play attractive football
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We increased the budget slightly but because we've then brought in quite a few players it's diluted it. We have the biggest squad in the league on an average budget which equates in to a poor position, were probably achieving where we should be. We have quantity over quality.
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McCann's main problem is that he inherited a squad with a rump of 20-25 players that were going nowhere. That reflects the legacy problems dating back to Wellens of poor recruitment and retention. Unless and until he can sift through that lot then we won't make meaningful progress. Plus he has his own margin for error to consider; some of his recruits haven't cut the mustard so far.
I've always said that he needed three windows to make an impact and I haven't changed my view. In the meantime, success would be staying up, regular demonstrations of defensive solidity and creation of some sort of momentum to take us into next season.
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Not getting into which manager is better but it does make you wonder how the other recent managers would have fared with what we are led to believe is more player budget support.
Was there was any increase in the budget . Let’s face it if we’re paying more on wages than this is worrying as results don’t justify it ! I imo players should get large win bonuses if this is what encourages results .
Of course the budget increased, we’ve signed all these players without really anyone leaving. So every one of these players are due to an increase in budget.
Our wage bill must be massive with the number of players we have, if McCann can reduce the numbers next season whilst still having the same wage bill the squad will be much smaller but full of better quality
Or he will be paying average players more money?
We are playing a far more attractive style of football than last season. Which is down to the manager. It's also one that lets more goals in. Which is down to...
So we play better and loose or play rough and scrappy and earn points . We played reasonably well yesterday but up and front not for the first time we lacked a final punch . I think results matter and how you get there should be fluid and transitional . Players need to do the basics well whilst competing to get the results . Teams are coming here and rolling us over because the way we play is allowing the opposition to fight and win possession too often . You’re nothing without possession and it’s what you do with it that gets results and upfront we’re not delivering .
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McCann's main problem is that he inherited a squad with a rump of 20-25 players that were going nowhere. That reflects the legacy problems dating back to Wellens of poor recruitment and retention. Unless and until he can sift through that lot then we won't make meaningful progress. Plus he has his own margin for error to consider; some of his recruits haven't cut the mustard so far.
I've always said that he needed three windows to make an impact and I haven't changed my view. In the meantime, success would be staying up, regular demonstrations of defensive solidity and creation of some sort of momentum to take us into next season.
Yes, this exactly.
And perhaps the ‘some sort of momentum’ is staring us in the face…THE BSM pot.
We beat Hull, scared Everton to death and gave Posh a run for their money, so on a one off what’s to say we can’t turn over Wigan? Then our season does get interesting .
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Given the extra funds being provided and bringing in a manager and staff tried and tested at a higher level, I would say there has been next to no improvement. The style is better but the supporters have still been presented with dross. Lose games with a whimper, no characters when we are up against it, squad too young, signing a goalkeeper who sat on the bench for Dundee, offering the other a contract who we all knew wasn't good enough, a right back who had a series of previous injuries, a 37yr old (say no more), Broadbent (say no more), Tyler Roberts (say no more) Sotona (say no more), new contract for Seaman (say no more). McCann is a big part to blsme for this season make no mistake. Brought in some very capable players but he has also had some absolute shockers. For this club to be in the position it is having no learned lessons from previous seasons and still clubs such as Harrogate and Newport do the double over us scoring 1 and conceding 9 in those 4 games is diabolical. Its unacceptable for all paying supporters yet for some it is very acceptable so they must be enjoying what is going on.
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Blind faith in McCann and all he brings to the club is what’s at the root of this . He has brought in players , staff and has got the backing of the owner . Only time will tell if this faith is to rewarded but how long will it take before even McCann sees that it’s not going to plan ?
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He has, but the majority of the squad is still players that were signed when we were signing poor players.
The recruitment this year has been good and the new players are significantly better than the ones we had.
He’s signed 16 players hasn’t he?
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Blind faith in McCann and all he brings to the club is what’s at the root of this . He has brought in players , staff and has got the backing of the owner . Only time will tell if this faith is to rewarded but how long will it take before even McCann sees that it’s not going to plan ?
So what should change?
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We've gone backwards in the last 2 months. Apart from 40 ISH minutes against Mansfield and a first half against MK. Other than that we've been as poor as last season of late.
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In my opinion we are in trouble, our next two league games are Bradford and Stockport, nailed on two defeats, we could then be very close to the bottom two
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Why so defeatist? If we look back perhaps McCann has put too much faith in what have now become failed players (Oluwu, Anderson, Biggins). He's also had a mass of injuries and constant top and changing.
We are better than last year to watch albeit results aren't great. I do think we've underperformed in terms of results.
I think we need a good second half of the season, we shouldn't be where we are so it's clear underperformance.
We do need to stick by the manager for the long term and show some patience.
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If we change manager again then we’re even more clueless than I already thought.
Get a new plan which is the best plan since sliced bread, and then chuck it out of the window again after 6 months. Just like we have with the last 3 plans.
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He has, but the majority of the squad is still players that were signed when we were signing poor players.
The recruitment this year has been good and the new players are significantly better than the ones we had.
He’s signed 16 players hasn’t he?
Exactly. There is barely any evidence that we’ve signed better players. If anything, the evidence points to this team being worse.Only Ironside and Bailey look better than what we had.
Of yesterday’s starting 11, only Rowe, jones, close and molyneux were here last season. The rest are grants signings.
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We've gone backwards in the last 2 months. Apart from 40 ISH minutes against Mansfield and a first half against MK. Other than that we've been as poor as last season of late.
11 points in the last 13 games.
That is inexcusable with the players available.
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We've gone backwards in the last 2 months. Apart from 40 ISH minutes against Mansfield and a first half against MK. Other than that we've been as poor as last season of late.
11 points in the last 13 games.
That is inexcusable with the players available.
What do you suggest we do about it?
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Me, Jonathan? I think we might start by getting last season into a bit of perspective. There are still folk losing their shit over how badly last season panned out, yet not raising a murmur over this season.
Why don't you dive in and ask them?
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Me, Jonathan? I think we might start by getting last season into a bit of perspective. There are still folk losing their shit over how badly last season panned out, yet not raising a murmur over this season.
Why don't you dive in and ask them?
Asking you because you said it’s inexcusable. I’m not sure what your suggestion above will add.
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Do you think it's ok?
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Do you think it's ok?
I’m asking you. It was your comment.
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I've no idea what should be done. Unlike those last season who were certain we should turf the manager out.
Happy?
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I don’t think anyone is happy Billy with the football or the constant childish squabbling on here and that’s directed at everyone involved not just you
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Perhaps there is less of a rush to turf the manager out this season because this time we have a manager with a proven track record at a higher level, and who provides some sense of honesty and realism in the media. So they can see that there is perhaps some hope that he might be able to find a formula that works, and that he’s not blind to the issues going on on the pitch.
As opposed to a manager who won 1 in 9 at his previous club in his only other semblance of managerial experience, and could provide little more to the listening public than a load of platitudes about processes.
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Yet he could, and did provide more points per game Pib. With a paper thin squad.
Me, I prefer points to interviews.
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I didn’t say it was about interviews.
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I didn’t say it was about interviews.
Then why raise how poor Schofield's public speaking was?
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The latest to give us punch up front has a far from impressive set of statistics, coming as a reject from a club (admittedly higher) in the same division, and that on loan, no real commitment to his abilities then, just a suck it and see, and only then as back up for others. The last time we were in this division (briefly) we signed Akinfenwa, and then Heffernan, having had Blundell. It makes the current crop fade into submission in terms of ability and goal scoring.
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So it’s “inexcusable” and you have “no idea what should be done” other than asking others to voice comparable disapproval to last season. Okay, sounds fun and really constructive.
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I'm struggling Jonathan. I'm thoroughly sick of watching the generally witless and gutless shit that we've been serving up for years.
If you can stomach that and not complain every once in a while, good on you.
I'll ask again, since you're so interested in my opinions, what is yours? Do you think our efforts this season have been ok?
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Last season was under 2 separate managers so the comparison in terms of management is not straightforward. It was McSheffrey from Aug, then Schofield from 20 Oct. So both share the blame/credit for finishing 18th and most (possibly all) Rovers fans judging it a very poor season. Maybe either or both would have done better (or even worse) over a whole season. We’ll never know.
But what does improvement on last season, based on what’s possible now, look like?
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For me it’s 17th or better with improvement up to the end of the season with a clear way of playing that we can build on in summer.
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I think this season has been really disappointing so far and below expectations. That said, there are a number of factors behind that and I wouldn’t even remotely entertain the prospect of changing the manager again. We have a manager in place that I believe can and will improve us from this position even though that hasn’t been instant. Yesterday was a dreadful result but the performance carried some signs of hope and it was better than we watched for most of last season. There’s talk of the big squad and players available but what are we really getting at? We’re still suffering injuries to the first choice team, our second top scorer has gone back, we had three players making either their first league start or first of the season. I’m genuinely confident we’ll improve in time. If that makes me delusional in your eyes then so be it, carry on trying to insinuate you preferred life under Schofield.
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I didn't and haven't said I preferred life under Schofield. But you have a long history of putting words in my mouth, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I guess it's what you do.
My serious concern is that, even with the current injuries, we have a squad that is objectively as good as or better in pretty much every position than what we had at this point last season, but we have gone backwards, results wise. As I said yesterday, barring one short, decent run several months ago, (when we played all the bottom 3), we have won 13 points in the other 20 games. That worries me greatly. We are unable to be competitive against a string of very, very ordinary sides and for all that I want to agree with you about the long term, I've seen no improvement whatsoever from the start of the season to now.
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I didn’t say it was about interviews.
Then why raise how poor Schofield's public speaking was?
I’m trying to offer an explanation as to why people aren’t perhaps as vociferously wanting to “turf the manager out” as they were last season. Surely you can get your head around the factors that I raised, regardless of whether you agree with them or not?
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Blind faith in McCann and all he brings to the club is what’s at the root of this . He has brought in players , staff and has got the backing of the owner . Only time will tell if this faith is to rewarded but how long will it take before even McCann sees that it’s not going to plan ?
So what should change?
The tactics.. ultimately it’s about tactics being strong and aggressive. Keep positive and patient and don’t let the opposing team dictate too much . We are often too slow to build into game or we are constantly on the back foot chasing players who want to keep us pend in . Vary the play from short passes to long over the heads of defenders and allow our wingers to pen them in !!
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I didn't and haven't said I preferred life under Schofield. But you have a long history of putting words in my mouth, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I guess it's what you do.
My serious concern is that, even with the current injuries, we have a squad that is objectively as good as or better in pretty much every position than what we had at this point last season, but we have gone backwards, results wise. As I said yesterday, barring one short, decent run several months ago, (when we played all the bottom 3), we have won 13 points in the other 20 games. That worries me greatly. We are unable to be competitive against a string of very, very ordinary sides and for all that I want to agree with you about the long term, I've seen no improvement whatsoever from the start of the season to now.
I think that’s the big concern isn’t it. Much has been made of us having played the top, moneybags sides away. It’d all come good when we played the dross sides at home wouldn’t it. But it hasn’t panned out like that. We’ve played dreadfully at home against some very average teams and lost. In a couple of cases we’ve been walloped.
I wasn’t a fan of Schofield, the football was awful, but he recognised that we needed to be harder to beat. Whereas GM is still trying to entertain. It’s interesting how we’re seeing similar outcomes but with two different managerial approaches.
GM needs to find a middle route and fast.
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I didn’t say it was about interviews.
Then why raise how poor Schofield's public speaking was?
I’m trying to offer an explanation as to why people aren’t perhaps as vociferously wanting to “turf the manager out” as they were last season. Surely you can get your head around the factors that I raised, regardless of whether you agree with them or not?
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Fair enough.
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I think pretty much the only positive this season is that 99pc of the support base is fully behind McCann.
The only way we can address this massive collapse in our credibility as a club is going to be a rebuild for the long-term. We have destroyed what we had (a competitive, top half League One side) over the last couple of seasons. It might take that long to turn this around.
Nobody will want to hear this but assuming we don’t go down, let’s look where we are in the January window next season. If we are still 20th in League Two then McCann has questions to answer.
Let’s stay up, try and get some consistency in performance, results and style of play, then hope we have a good summer.
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For all of you who believe McCann is the Mesiah.. genuine question...... apart from inheriting a very good core group of players from Ferguson and then a promotion with Hull who again had the basis of a fantastic League One after being relegated from the Championship what has he done that warrants such praise from our supporters? What experience has he had in a bebuilding situation before this job landed on him?
Im not at the point of calling for him to be sacked but just very confused as to why he is rated so highly amongst our fans. To put some perspective on the knowledge of some of you.... in previous times when we have been through the process of recruiting a new manager and Steve Evans name (who has far more accolades that GM) has been linked there were some who would rather Weaver come back than have him and some I remember saying wouldn't even renew their season tickets yet last season were screaming for GM to replace DS. Just want to know why GM.
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So it’s “inexcusable” and you have “no idea what should be done” other than asking others to voice comparable disapproval to last season. Okay, sounds fun and really constructive.
So what's your take on it then ?
Instead of having jibes at people for voicing their opinion ?
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For all of you who believe McCann is the Mesiah.. genuine question...... apart from inheriting a very good core group of players from Ferguson and then a promotion with Hull who again had the basis of a fantastic League One after being relegated from the Championship what has he done that warrants such praise from our supporters? What experience has he had in a bebuilding situation before this job landed on him?
Im not at the point of calling for him to be sacked but just very confused as to why he is rated so highly amongst our fans. To put some perspective on the knowledge of some of you.... in previous times when we have been through the process of recruiting a new manager and Steve Evans name (who has far more accolades that GM) has been linked there were some who would rather Weaver come back than have him and some I remember saying wouldn't even renew their season tickets yet last season were screaming for GM to replace DS. Just want to know why GM.
I'm fairly sure the opposition to Evans specifically has nothing to do with his football record and everything to do with his criminal record.
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For all of you who believe McCann is the Mesiah.. genuine question...... apart from inheriting a very good core group of players from Ferguson and then a promotion with Hull who again had the basis of a fantastic League One after being relegated from the Championship what has he done that warrants such praise from our supporters? What experience has he had in a bebuilding situation before this job landed on him?
Im not at the point of calling for him to be sacked but just very confused as to why he is rated so highly amongst our fans. To put some perspective on the knowledge of some of you.... in previous times when we have been through the process of recruiting a new manager and Steve Evans name (who has far more accolades that GM) has been linked there were some who would rather Weaver come back than have him and some I remember saying wouldn't even renew their season tickets yet last season were screaming for GM to replace DS. Just want to know why GM.
I'm fairly sure the opposition to Evans specifically has nothing to do with his football record and everything to do with his criminal record.
Didn't Fergie beat his wife up?
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For all of you who believe McCann is the Mesiah.. genuine question...... apart from inheriting a very good core group of players from Ferguson and then a promotion with Hull who again had the basis of a fantastic League One after being relegated from the Championship what has he done that warrants such praise from our supporters? What experience has he had in a bebuilding situation before this job landed on him?
Im not at the point of calling for him to be sacked but just very confused as to why he is rated so highly amongst our fans. To put some perspective on the knowledge of some of you.... in previous times when we have been through the process of recruiting a new manager and Steve Evans name (who has far more accolades that GM) has been linked there were some who would rather Weaver come back than have him and some I remember saying wouldn't even renew their season tickets yet last season were screaming for GM to replace DS. Just want to know why GM.
I'm fairly sure the opposition to Evans specifically has nothing to do with his football record and everything to do with his criminal record.
It sure has stopped him making a very good career in football.
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These posts from Billy are getting more and more confusing everyday.
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For all of you who believe McCann is the Mesiah.. genuine question...... apart from inheriting a very good core group of players from Ferguson and then a promotion with Hull who again had the basis of a fantastic League One after being relegated from the Championship what has he done that warrants such praise from our supporters? What experience has he had in a bebuilding situation before this job landed on him?
Im not at the point of calling for him to be sacked but just very confused as to why he is rated so highly amongst our fans. To put some perspective on the knowledge of some of you.... in previous times when we have been through the process of recruiting a new manager and Steve Evans name (who has far more accolades that GM) has been linked there were some who would rather Weaver come back than have him and some I remember saying wouldn't even renew their season tickets yet last season were screaming for GM to replace DS. Just want to know why GM.
I'm fairly sure the opposition to Evans specifically has nothing to do with his football record and everything to do with his criminal record.
Didn't Fergie beat his wife up?
Yep. We also spent ages trying to sign Lee Hughes who killed someone, and actually did sign Jimmy Kelly. Doesn't make Evans less of a crook though.
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From where we are now it seems mid table will have to do.
It would be nice to get a trip to Wembley in the EFL trophy but that's a long shot with the teams left in it that will start taking it a bit more seriously now. I went last yr to watch Bolton with a friend and regardless of what people think of the competition Wembley is a great day out.
IMO we aren't going to get a better manager than GM and we should stick with him. It takes a manager 3-4 windows to get 'their team' together.
Best in mind not all transfers work out even for the best managers. Pep, Mourinhio, Klopp, Fergie, they have all signed big players that haven't worked out and have moved them on again.
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If we can’t beat Newport I can’t see us beating Wigan, Bradford and whoever else goes through.
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Most folk wanted an experienced manager. We've got one. One of the benefits of an experienced manager, is he's gone through highs and lows and can draw on those experiences without getting over emotional and losing his head and, not losing the players.
We said we need an overhaul to change the team around. He's started that process and we can see it's going to take time . So why on earth would you panic and not allow him to see it through?
A new manager would have to start again with a worse starting position than McCann in that he doesn't have the same knowledge of the players as McCann and would have to reassess all over again.
Yesterday was the very first game for the new signings. Do we really expect instant results?
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I don’t think anyone expects instant results but I think most of us expected more improvement than we’ve seen given the goal the club set at the start of the season and the influx of new players.
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If we can’t beat Newport I can’t see us beating Wigan, Bradford and whoever else goes through.
We beat mk dons
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If we can’t beat Newport I can’t see us beating Wigan, Bradford and whoever else goes through.
We beat mk dons
And in retrospect the odd thing about that was that we beat them in the first 45 minutes and then just let them come at us in the second half with all the risk that involved. Our subsequent performances have made what happened seem like a dream turned into nightmare.
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I think we managed the game excellently in the second half
Something we hardly ever manage to do
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I think we managed the game excellently in the second half
Something we hardly ever manage to do
Perhaps something to do with the fact we're hardly ever three-nil up at half time.
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Plenty of times we’ve been in front over the last 2 seasons and not managed the game properly