Tonights meeting report - Part 2

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Many thanks for that SM.

Do you know in which season we lost £10M?

It was just a figure used and was used to make a point of how the Club Doncaster model has changed the objectives and approach in the business. It wasn't meant to apply to any particular season.

But if memory serves me right we weren't far off when we were relegated during the experiment season.

I know you are just quoting Martin but they shouldn’t really use over exaggerated figures to try and soften their side of an argument. Just use exact figures if they want to make a point like that surely.

I'd give them the benefit of the doubt on this one. I'm pretty sure we SPENT £10m in 11/12, rather than lost that amount. Easy slip to make.

Yes, I think it must have been around then.

I was with S_M and others working with the club around that time, looking at ticketing and trying to optimise income from sales etc, using some historical data from previous seasons. I think it was when the decline started to set in and we had quite a few high earners on the books, some of which were spending more time on the injured list. Anyway, I was shocked to find out the wage bill had topped £10m for the first time. The three amigos were committing £1m each (as a starter) and ticket revenues were around £3.5m so there was a £4m gap before even taking into account other operating costs.

So, the three amigos were having to mop up the shortfall on top of the £1m each they were already putting in.

It's around that time that attendances had already started to fall but we were still working to try and keep sales healthy but on top of that, the Club Doncaster model was in its infancy and being developed as a means to make the stadium work for the club and bring in extra revenue in order to reduce that funding gap.

It was about then, we had the turmoil with SO'Ds departure, the experiment followed by Saunders during which the cracks between the 3 amigos were emerging.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Whoever is on the “paying committee”/recruitment panel whatever you want to call it must not watch football. It’s impossible to want to sign Grigg one minute then O’Brien the next. Absolutely zero joined up thinking there. It’s like trying to sign Nial Quinn and then saying you want Kevin Phillips. Completely different players. They are making it up as they go along and you can’t be successful doing that. How many times have they all watched Vilca play before signing him? Probably never. You can’t make decisions like that. He may be a great signing but there’s no real accountability if he isn’t.

Could it not be possible Wellens has come across Vilca while watching his son play for Man u?

SM said in the other threat that Vilca comes highly recommended. Based on that I would say none of our recruitment team have seen him play.

Hopefully it’s not the same person that suggested Cukur then. It’s prehistoric how our recruitment is run.

It would be interesting to know what motivated that signing, and whether anyone had watched him play. He might still surprise us, but I've seen nothing yet to remotely suggest he is within two divisions of the standard we need. There is no question whatsoever that Bogle has looked much better when he has played.

[jamesrover17]

Whoever is on the “paying committee”/recruitment panel whatever you want to call it must not watch football. It’s impossible to want to sign Grigg one minute then O’Brien the next. Absolutely zero joined up thinking there. It’s like trying to sign Nial Quinn and then saying you want Kevin Phillips. Completely different players. They are making it up as they go along and you can’t be successful doing that. How many times have they all watched Vilca play before signing him? Probably never. You can’t make decisions like that. He may be a great signing but there’s no real accountability if he isn’t.

Could it not be possible Wellens has come across Vilca while watching his son play for Man u?

SM said in the other threat that Vilca comes highly recommended. Based on that I would say none of our recruitment team have seen him play.

Hopefully it’s not the same person that suggested Cukur then. It’s prehistoric how our recruitment is run.

It would be interesting to know what motivated that signing, and whether anyone had watched him play. He might still surprise us, but I've seen nothing yet to remotely suggest he is within two divisions of the standard we need. There is no question whatsoever that Bogle has looked much better when he has played.

Bogles cameo at Accrington was the best he has played in a rovers shirt, he held balls up when having constant diagonals pinged to him... Shocking Cukur gets in ahead of him...

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Thanks S_M for part 2. Very good reading.

I know you've got further meetings set up but I can see there are still some issues that still could do with being squared off, and that's around communication and how things play out in the press and social media.

I'm sure you've probably read Liam Hoden's take on events, which leaves bags of room for speculation and conspiracy to linger.

Now,, appreciate Liam is supposed to be doing his own Q&A session and will publish that at some point. We all look out for updates in the DFP and there' s many out there that take that info as gospel as their only source of info, plus others who then dissect the info on FB and Twitter etc.

I just wonder whether, it's worth the club publishing an article, or Gavin doing a piece to counter Liams take on events with a view to reflecting better the events that unfolded?

Alot comes down to managing fans expectations as we know and we are fortunate to have you reporting back to us  here but it may not be seen by the wider audience.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Whoever is on the “paying committee”/recruitment panel whatever you want to call it must not watch football. It’s impossible to want to sign Grigg one minute then O’Brien the next. Absolutely zero joined up thinking there. It’s like trying to sign Nial Quinn and then saying you want Kevin Phillips. Completely different players. They are making it up as they go along and you can’t be successful doing that. How many times have they all watched Vilca play before signing him? Probably never. You can’t make decisions like that. He may be a great signing but there’s no real accountability if he isn’t.

Could it not be possible Wellens has come across Vilca while watching his son play for Man u?

SM said in the other threat that Vilca comes highly recommended. Based on that I would say none of our recruitment team have seen him play.

Hopefully it’s not the same person that suggested Cukur then. It’s prehistoric how our recruitment is run.

It would be interesting to know what motivated that signing, and whether anyone had watched him play. He might still surprise us, but I've seen nothing yet to remotely suggest he is within two divisions of the standard we need. There is no question whatsoever that Bogle has looked much better when he has played.

Bogles cameo at Accrington was the best he has played in a rovers shirt, he held balls up when having constant diagonals pinged to him... Shocking Cukur gets in ahead of him...

Agreed. And while I fully understand us not playing him while we were trying to ship him out, to avoid him getting injured, that bus has gone now. Given the squad we currently have, Bogle has to start the next match.

[GazLaz]

Reading back some of these posts.

Some people still do not get it.  5 yr plans need to be adjusted due to circumstances.
We have had 3 managers in 4 seasons ( not counting Butts or Wellens )
We have had a pandemic with no income.  So is it not obvious there has been a problem in keeping on track with the original business plan.

You cannot legislate for Managers leaving. If RW does stay 3/4 5 years then we will have made serious progress on the field of play. That i am 99.9% sure about.

What is it about the way the club is run that some do not approve of?
No the club is not perfect. Yes they get things wrong sometimes.
But seriously if a few ( or more than a few ) people can%u2019t see the long term ambitions of the club  now then i do not think they wish to do so or are just determined never to deviate from their own personal negative sometimes hateful agenda%u2019s.

Very sad imo.   

You can legislate for managers leaving. It%u2019s what happens in football.

Your completely missing the point.

If the manager changes every year it is impossible to get stability. Surely you understand that.

The club did not know DF, GM and DM were going to walk.  Plans are made on the basis they are staying.
You cannot plan for a future manager until he arrives.

We have had massive disruption for 3 years. Then the pandemic.

Hopefully we will have several years of stability now under RW.  If we do we will make serious progress.

Haw can you lose stability by one member of staff leaving a business?

[normal rules]

Whoever is on the “paying committee”/recruitment panel whatever you want to call it must not watch football. It’s impossible to want to sign Grigg one minute then O’Brien the next. Absolutely zero joined up thinking there. It’s like trying to sign Nial Quinn and then saying you want Kevin Phillips. Completely different players. They are making it up as they go along and you can’t be successful doing that. How many times have they all watched Vilca play before signing him? Probably never. You can’t make decisions like that. He may be a great signing but there’s no real accountability if he isn’t.

Could it not be possible Wellens has come across Vilca while watching his son play for Man u?

SM said in the other threat that Vilca comes highly recommended. Based on that I would say none of our recruitment team have seen him play.

Hopefully it’s not the same person that suggested Cukur then. It’s prehistoric how our recruitment is run.

It would be interesting to know what motivated that signing, and whether anyone had watched him play. He might still surprise us, but I've seen nothing yet to remotely suggest he is within two divisions of the standard we need. There is no question whatsoever that Bogle has looked much better when he has played.

Bogles cameo at Accrington was the best he has played in a rovers shirt, he held balls up when having constant diagonals pinged to him... Shocking Cukur gets in ahead of him...

Agreed. And while I fully understand us not playing him while we were trying to ship him out, to avoid him getting injured, that bus has gone now. Given the squad we currently have, Bogle has to start the next match.

Unless RW is trying to force him out. Refusal or failure to train? Breach of contract. ?
Unlikely I know, but possible. Why else make him train with no prospect of playing.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Because we were wanting him to be a viable option for another club.

That's now not going to happen for 4 months. And at present, he is the best fit striker we have.

[RugbyRover]

I thought it was a good idea to ask what questions we wanted to put forward. Disappointed that it didn't happen. Not sure I learnt to much. It comes across as the hard questions all melted away and they talked about what THEY wanted to talk about.

Anyhow "a man we never made a mistake never made anything". So hopefully lessons are learnt.

[silent majority]

I thought it was a good idea to ask what questions we wanted to put forward. Disappointed that it didn't happen. Not sure I learnt to much. It comes across as the hard questions all melted away and they talked about what THEY wanted to talk about.

Anyhow "a man we never made a mistake never made anything". So hopefully lessons are learnt.

But it did happen, I had all the questions written down.

Give me an example?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Just looked at the accounts for 11/12 and 12/13.

We lost £3.3m in 11/12 and £4.4m in 12/13. That 11/12 figure was after making a net gain of £1.4m on player sales (mainly Sharp I assume).

Total wage bill (including pension and Social security casts) was £9.4m in 11/12 and £7.1m in 12/13.

Total costs were £12.7m in 11/12 and £10.0m in 12/13.

Every time I see those numbers, especially the wage bill under the Experiment, I remember why the relations between Ryan and the rest of the Board imploded.

[The Beast]

Whoever is on the “paying committee”/recruitment panel whatever you want to call it must not watch football. It’s impossible to want to sign Grigg one minute then O’Brien the next. Absolutely zero joined up thinking there. It’s like trying to sign Nial Quinn and then saying you want Kevin Phillips. Completely different players. They are making it up as they go along and you can’t be successful doing that. How many times have they all watched Vilca play before signing him? Probably never. You can’t make decisions like that. He may be a great signing but there’s no real accountability if he isn’t.

Could it not be possible Wellens has come across Vilca while watching his son play for Man u?

SM said in the other threat that Vilca comes highly recommended. Based on that I would say none of our recruitment team have seen him play.

Hopefully it’s not the same person that suggested Cukur then. It’s prehistoric how our recruitment is run.

It would be interesting to know what motivated that signing, and whether anyone had watched him play. He might still surprise us, but I've seen nothing yet to remotely suggest he is within two divisions of the standard we need. There is no question whatsoever that Bogle has looked much better when he has played.

This is what I find a bit unsavoury and disconcerting about the whole Bogle situation, he’s definitely not on his own in not performing and definitely not the worst but Richie and a lot of the fans seem determined to ostracise him. What sort of club are we where this is deemed acceptable?

[ravenrover]

He's meant to score or at least assist in scoring goals, that's his role. It's like saying you keep playing a goalie even though he is not stopping goals, it's his role

[silent majority]

Having spoken to Shaun we've got clarification on the £10m figure.

Shaun mentioned it last night but he was talking about projected losses for the end of season 12/13. It was those projections that led to the change of CEO as Dave Morris was in charge at that point, he stepped down and Gavin took on the role. It was work then done by TB, DB and GB that reduced the losses which were obviously necessary.

Losses eventually amounted to the £4.4m figure quoted above.

[colincramb]

Whilst the comms might be great, it doesn’t alter the fact we went from one extreme to the other (grigg then o’brien) without what appears to any real contingency planning if we got neither (which we did).

Comms to the supports is great, but we are still up shit creek without a paddle for the next however many weeks/months

[pib]

Because we were wanting him to be a viable option for another club.

That's now not going to happen for 4 months. And at present, he is the best fit striker we have.

Agreed. And I also can't work out how playing Bogle now wouldn't be "in the long-term interests of the club" any differently than playing an 18 year old loanee who clearly isn't good enough.

[Glyn_Wigley]

How would you feel going onto the pitch next to someone who clearly can't be arsed but who is taking the place of someone trying prove himself, who might not turn out to not be good enough, but is at least trying his best? How many of the rest of that team will think 'why should I break sweat if someone like him gets a game'?

[no eyed deer]

Sounds like a great success off the field, but not on.

For me nothing new have come out of the meeting only soundbites.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Sounds like a great success off the field, but not on.

For me nothing new have come out of the meeting only soundbites.

Perhaps you should have been bothered enough to ask a question yourself.

[no eyed deer]

Sounds like a great success off the field, but not on.

For me nothing new have come out of the meeting only soundbites.

Perhaps you should have been bothered enough to ask a question yourself.

They were put forward by others. What did you ask, something positive no doubt.

[johnny rovers]

What I can't understand is why we didn't shift focus away from Grigg well before deadline day. We've been told that Sunderland would want to string it to near the deadline.

It's been stated extra funds were made available before Tuesday, so we should of gone out and secured the services of another striker as soon as the extra funds were made available. We need a striker a month ago.

[pib]

How would you feel going onto the pitch next to someone who clearly can't be arsed but who is taking the place of someone trying prove himself, who might not turn out to not be good enough, but is at least trying his best? How many of the rest of that team will think 'why should I break sweat if someone like him gets a game'?

If that was a response to my post, then I would disagree with the notion Bogle isn't trying. Lacking confidence and quality certainly, but I've seen all his league appearances this season and he's looked like he's been trying to me.

Cukur has looked sluggish to me, and has offered very little out-ball or goal threat. Not sure if that's lack of effort or a lack of fitness/physicality.

Out of the two I'd have Bogle in the team I think now he's here for another few months at least. I think he looks the better option at this point, although neither of them are what you'd call long-term options.

[Campsall rover]

Whoever is on the “paying committee”/recruitment panel whatever you want to call it must not watch football. It’s impossible to want to sign Grigg one minute then O’Brien the next. Absolutely zero joined up thinking there. It’s like trying to sign Nial Quinn and then saying you want Kevin Phillips. Completely different players. They are making it up as they go along and you can’t be successful doing that. How many times have they all watched Vilca play before signing him? Probably never. You can’t make decisions like that. He may be a great signing but there’s no real accountability if he isn’t.

Could it not be possible Wellens has come across Vilca while watching his son play for Man u?

SM said in the other threat that Vilca comes highly recommended. Based on that I would say none of our recruitment team have seen him play.

Hopefully it’s not the same person that suggested Cukur then. It’s prehistoric how our recruitment is run.

It would be interesting to know what motivated that signing, and whether anyone had watched him play. He might still surprise us, but I've seen nothing yet to remotely suggest he is within two divisions of the standard we need. There is no question whatsoever that Bogle has looked much better when he has played.

This is what I find a bit unsavoury and disconcerting about the whole Bogle situation, he’s definitely not on his own in not performing and definitely not the worst but Richie and a lot of the fans seem determined to ostracise him. What sort of club are we where this is deemed acceptable?

We do not know what OB’s attitude is in this scenario.  It is easy to say that Wellens is at fault but we do not know the facts and what goes on behind closed doors, that none of see.

RW said publically only about 4 weeks ago he was a good lad.

Now with this transfer situation things may have changed and Omar may be digging his heels in to get more from the club.
If the offers were decent and he turned them down to try and get a pay off you can understand RW annoyances and his stance of not including him.
We have no facts but would not surprise me one iota if it was not his agent that has caused the impass.
There are some good ones but by heck there are some seriously greedy selfish ones who put their own interests before their clients.

As i say again we have no facts on this as we have no facts on so many other issues so we can’t draw any definitive conclusions.

[Campsall rover]

Reading back some of these posts.

Some people still do not get it.  5 yr plans need to be adjusted due to circumstances.
We have had 3 managers in 4 seasons ( not counting Butts or Wellens )
We have had a pandemic with no income.  So is it not obvious there has been a problem in keeping on track with the original business plan.

You cannot legislate for Managers leaving. If RW does stay 3/4 5 years then we will have made serious progress on the field of play. That i am 99.9% sure about.

What is it about the way the club is run that some do not approve of?
No the club is not perfect. Yes they get things wrong sometimes.
But seriously if a few ( or more than a few ) people can%u2019t see the long term ambitions of the club  now then i do not think they wish to do so or are just determined never to deviate from their own personal negative sometimes hateful agenda%u2019s.

Very sad imo.   

You can legislate for managers leaving. It%u2019s what happens in football.

Your completely missing the point.

If the manager changes every year it is impossible to get stability. Surely you understand that.

The club did not know DF, GM and DM were going to walk.  Plans are made on the basis they are staying.
You cannot plan for a future manager until he arrives.

We have had massive disruption for 3 years. Then the pandemic.

Hopefully we will have several years of stability now under RW.  If we do we will make serious progress.

Haw can you lose stability by one member of staff leaving a business?

If that’s a serious question GazLaz referring to the Manager then there is absolutely no point in continuing this conversation.

[johnny rovers]

Having spoken to Shaun we've got clarification on the £10m figure.

Shaun mentioned it last night but he was talking about projected losses for the end of season 12/13. It was those projections that led to the change of CEO as Dave Morris was in charge at that point, he stepped down and Gavin took on the role. It was work then done by TB, DB and GB that reduced the losses which were obviously necessary.

Losses eventually amounted to the £4.4m figure quoted above.

Wow, just how much was we paying Dean Saunders???

I find it hard to believe a season in league one we projected to lose £10 million. How by changing the CEO did we save £5.5 million?

[steve@dcfd]

Quote
Those players he is recruiting for the long term are beginning to be assembled and we already have 12 players contracted beyond next season.

Question for Martin could someone explain where the 12players come from unless contracts have been extended.
As I see it
Knoyle, Williams, Rowe, Close, Hiwula and Ravenhill
Which other players have contracts pasted the end of this season.

[johnny rovers]

Quote
Those players he is recruiting for the long term are beginning to be assembled and we already have 12 players contracted beyond next season.

Question for Martin could someone explain where the 12players come from unless contracts have been extended.
As I see it
Knoyle, Williams, Rowe, Close, Hiwula and Ravenhill
Which other players have contracts pasted the end of this season.

Another alarming soundbite Steve, that will not get past many of us.

[Canadian Rover]

 [/quote]

Haw can you lose stability by one member of staff leaving a business?
[/quote]
If that’s a serious question GazLaz referring to the Manager then there is absolutely no point in continuing this conversation.
[/quote]

He has a point though. Systems and policies could be in place no matter who the head coach/manager is. Why would the youth set ups need changing? Why do we need talent spotters/chief scouts changing with each manager? 

[vaya]

Quote
Those players he is recruiting for the long term are beginning to be assembled and we already have 12 players contracted beyond next season.

Question for Martin could someone explain where the 12players come from unless contracts have been extended.
As I see it
Knoyle, Williams, Rowe, Close, Hiwula and Ravenhill
Which other players have contracts pasted the end of this season.

Taylor as well.

[Donnybax]

If the entire plan comes to a complete halt whenever a manager leaves something is very wrong behind the scenes