Brexit deal

[BillyStubbsTears]

It isn't just money we get back from the EU. It also buys us the membership of the Customs Union and Single Market too, which earns this country a lot more than the purely monetary deficit.

And if we don't pay to remain part of those, there's not an economist in the world who thinks we're not going to see a huge additional hit to our economy.

Still, we took back control, eh?

[BillyStubbsTears]

By the way. See the map below.

And before anyone starts, we're not poor in SY because we're in the EU. We're poor in SY because for most of the past 40 years, the UK has been ruled by Govts who didn't give a monkey's chuff about SY.

We DID get out of the group of poorest regions in the EU in the late 00s. In part because we had money pumped into our economy and infrastructure by the EU, after decades of neglect by Westminster.

I am utterly bewildered that anyone in SY can seriously look at these figures and not realise what f**king idiots they are being supporting Brexit.

[SydneyRover]

Waddoo we want

 'austerity'

when do we want it, now!

[Not Now Kato]

  Billy stop the spin, we are net contributors to the EU, therefore you could argue we put some money in and they give us a little bit back to spend of our own British tax payers money.
  It is like asking for a fiver off a mate, buying him a pint for three quid, and keeping the change, and him thinking your doing him a favour.

No.  It's like asking a mate for a fiver, buying him a pint for three quid, and then giving him a tenner back because of all the deals you've been able to do based on his original loan.
 
If only people understood the financial advantages we get from our payments to the EU as part of our membership!  Way more than the 'refund' we get.  Net contributors, yes, net advantage gainers.... oh yes.  Seems you don't understand why our membership is so financially beneficial Selby?

[IDM]

  Seeing as how both major political parties stated in their manifestos that they would respect the referendum result.
   If you voted in the general election for any of those parties, Did you know what you were voting for? and would you like another vote?

If the government doesn’t deliver on their pre GE manifesto, or brings about unexpected and unwanted outcomes, they can be voted out next time..

Brexit isn’t delivering is it.? Therefore it seems entirely reasonable to vote again.!

[RedJ]

Nah that's all down to the Remoaners not getting behind it and using our British spirit.

[selby]

  Even if it is because Labour vote against it?  IDM, which would be against the majority of their voters wishes, and was in their manifesto.
   Only liberal party voters can say they voted for their party to oppose exiting EU membership,  Any voter who voted for the two major parties, and wanted to remain in the EU could not have read their manifestos, and really did not know what they were voting for, probably thick like they like to portray anybody who voted out in the referendum

[IDM]

The GE was about much more than brexit though..

I struggle to vote in the GE because I have very little time for either political party, they are all as bad as each other, but the point remains that GE results which turn out bad for the country can be overturned at the next vote.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby.

I'm a Labour party member. I voted Labour last time round, whilst vehemently disagreeing with the policy of Brexit and doing my utmost to change it.

Like IDM says, nobody agrees with every word written in any party's manifesto. You support a party in a GE on the overall balance of their policies and what the alternatives are.

You're setting up a straw man to argue with.

[selby]

  Billy, this country has had three votes on coming out of the EU.
   The referendum result was to come out.
  In the General Election both major parties stated in their manifesto that they would uphold the referendum result. Only the Liberals,SNP, and Greens stating in their manifestos that they opposed it.
   Then at the general election MP's were voted in to carry out the will of the people which they had published in their manifestos, the result of which the two major parties were voted in to carry out our exit with the voters seconding our exit vote by voting for those two parties.
   Then those same MP's voted in the house of commons to put our Exit INTO THE LAW OF THE LAND and the leave date of March 29th 2019 so third-ed  the leave vote.
  Now I could accept the argument if the Liberals had got 16 million more votes, or there had been 16 million abstentions, but there was no outcry apart from Jimmy Cranky over the border, or are you telling me that the voters for both major parties didn't know what they were voting for, or were like Lemmings voting for a party whose manifestos should be hung on a nail on the bog door?
   Just how many votes do you want?  Or as a paid up party member are you saying that your party manifesto is a pack of lies to get votes?  If it is the latter it is time to pack in the party system in this country.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Politics eh Selby?

Firstly, minor point of fact, Parliament voted for A50 before the 2017 GE.

Secondly, and very importantly, back in 2017 (and even moreso in 2016) there was no clarity among the electorate about what the effects of Brexit were. So parties had little option but to play politics. It would have been electoral suicide for the Labour party to campaign against Brexit in 2017.

Do I like that? No, not at all. Do I understand it? Yes. It is due to the political landscape at the time, which was still eavily influenced by the bullshit that had been promised by the Leave side. There was a feeling in the country in early 2017 that Brexit was something we had to get on with and sort out, and if either major party had gone against that, it would have been curtains for them. At that time.

Why do you think may called the A50 vote just before she called a GE? For political reasons. She wanted Labour, ideally for her, to vote against it. But by voting for it, she got them in the second best position for her, in boxing them in in the way that you point out.

But that's how politics goes. Parties have to box clever and they change their approaches when circumstances dictate.

Back in 2017, most of the elctorate thought Brexit was going to be a straightforward thing to sort out. We were still being told that we were going to be wealthier after it, and that the negotiations would be dead easy.

We have a far clearer idea now of what Brexit means. And polls are showing a consistent move towards more and more voters thinking we made the wrong decision in 2016.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/

A political party that didn't take that change of circumstances into account would be stupid.

And yes, I would much prefer for parties to have high minded principles and not play these games. But that would require an electorate that considered nuanced positions carefully and didn't make knee reactions. We're a long way from having that. And so we get the political parties we deserve.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Anyway, I see there's no response from you about the funding that South Yorkshire is going to lose when we leave the EU, and how that is going to be made up by the British Govt.

[hoolahoop]

I take it Sprotyrover isn't a supporter of the Britain Surrendering Together party!

Hilarious , I've missed your finely - tuned wit. 😂😂

[Bentley Bullet]

Why thanks Hoola! I'll have you in the British Bulldogs party one day!

[DonnyOsmond]

  Billy stop the spin, we are net contributors to the EU, therefore you could argue we put some money in and they give us a little bit back to spend of our own British tax payers money.
  It is like asking for a fiver off a mate, buying him a pint for three quid, and keeping the change, and him thinking your doing him a favour.

No.  It's like asking a mate for a fiver, buying him a pint for three quid, and then giving him a tenner back because of all the deals you've been able to do based on his original loan.
 
If only people understood the financial advantages we get from our payments to the EU as part of our membership!  Way more than the 'refund' we get.  Net contributors, yes, net advantage gainers.... oh yes.  Seems you don't understand why our membership is so financially beneficial Selby?

One big benefit is for our farmers. They receive £3bn a year in EU subsidies. We leave on no deal and theres two scenarios, we get the increased tariffs from WTO which make us poorer or we make deals to not add tariffs, which then hits our farmers and will put them out of business.

[selby]

  Well played Billy, now I know you are good at politics , when in doubt come out with "well yes but"

[RedJ]

So you have no answer then.

[BillyStubbsTears]

We don't live in an ideal world Selby.

I very much dislike the way that Corbyn has played Brexit-supporting from the start. But that's the world we are in. You make the best of it.

Now. About that EU funding...

[BillyStubbsTears]

When historians look back on this period, they'll be astonished how many groups of people were in on this Project Fear thing, scheming to con the Great British Public out of their Glorious Brexit-supporting.

MPs. Of course.
Journalists. Natch.
Governor of the Bank of England.
Heads of car manufacturers.
Pretty much anyone who's ever picked up Economics for Dummies.
The head of Airbus.
Now the heads of supermarkets.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47028748

Bunch of devious, lying bas**rds eh? The lot of em.

And they are obviously overplaying their devious hands because...

A Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs spokesman said: The UK has a high level of food security built upon a diverse range of sources, including strong domestic production and imports from other countries.

‘This will continue to be the case whether we leave the EU with or without a deal.

‘The Government has well-established ways of working with the food industry to prevent disruption – and we are using these to support preparations for leaving the EU.’

See. It's alright really because May's Govt has got it all under control.

[selby]

  It is not EU funding, it is the pittance they give us back out of our own contributions. How can they be funding us when we contribute more than they give us back.
   The British tax payer is funding their projects as well as our own.

[BillyStubbsTears]

So you just ignore the posts I've made answering that point and repeat the same point?

[SydneyRover]

  It is not EU funding, it is the pittance they give us back out of our own contributions. How can they be funding us when we contribute more than they give us back.
   The British tax payer is funding their projects as well as our own.

As BST and many experts in politics but especially in commerce and trade have stated membership of the EU is worth far more than ones membership fee. Equate it to being a member of amazon prime, being a regular buyer the membership fee has soon been ameliorated by the savings in freight. But you don't appear to want to acknowledge any of that in your arguments Selby by keep banging on about this was voted for that was voted for. If brexit goes ahead our trading position will be seriously disadvantaged which will probably mean Austerity Plus and apart from not getting a fair shake from our own government we will not get the regional grants from the EU, which would more than likely mean that DR business owners will not be trading so well, less money to invest, not so much money to spend on season tickets, fixing potholes etc and conference football on the horizon.

[Bentley Bullet]

The EU didn't stop us being in the Conference before.

[bobjimwilly]

And the other major benefit of being part of the EU? Peace.

There has been no wars fought between European countries in over 60 years! (That's got to be some kind of record?)

[BillyStubbsTears]

The EU didn't stop us being in the Conference before.

That was because we had an amoral Kitson in charge who ran us into the ground to further his own aims.

Nice little parable actually...

[BillyStubbsTears]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47034701

Jesus.


f**king.


Wept.

59 days from Brexit.

2.5 years since the vote.


And the best we can come up with to deal with the issue that was obvious to everyone who spent five minutes thinking about it, was going to be the hard one is "al-f**king-ternative arrangements"?

[SydneyRover]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47034701

Jesus.


f**king.


Wept.

59 days from Brexit.

2.5 years since the vote.


And the best we can come up with to deal with the issue that was obvious to everyone who spent five minutes thinking about it, was going to be the hard one is "al-f**king-ternative arrangements"?

Hold on there, not since the early days of Edward De Bono have we had a breakthrough of such massive proportions and could be used to solve the Mid-East crisis, Syria, Russia, China, Iraq, Venezuela, this is a gift to the world from the best conservative brains and can also be modified to fix climate change, starvation, disease, cancer: "al-f**king-ternative arrangements"? ...........fmd.

[Donnywolf]

Dr Liam Fox - sly weasel - although that covers most of them

Just been on BBC for the millionth time - peddling his own views and ignoring the questions asked - though again that covers most of them

Once again saying a Second Referendum would be an affront to democracy and that Voters would not be happy if they voted again in any future Referendum and then just had to sit back waiting for those that dislike the outcome to alter it

Oh wait (and why doesnt ANYBODY ask him and others) thats exactly what happened in 1976. The voters said remain (I said Leave) and then with no pressure whatsoever from the electorate the MPs and others gradually worked away until they themselves engineered another Referndum
Whats the difference Fox ? Please answer the Question

[Glyn_Wigley]

When historians look back on this period, they'll be astonished how many groups of people were in on this Project Fear thing, scheming to con the Great British Public out of their Glorious Brexit-supporting.

MPs. Of course.
Journalists. Natch.
Governor of the Bank of England.
Heads of car manufacturers.
Pretty much anyone who's ever picked up Economics for Dummies.
The head of Airbus.
Now the heads of supermarkets.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47028748

Bunch of devious, lying bas**rds eh? The lot of em.

And they are obviously overplaying their devious hands because...

A Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs spokesman said: The UK has a high level of food security built upon a diverse range of sources, including strong domestic production and imports from other countries.

‘This will continue to be the case whether we leave the EU with or without a deal.

‘The Government has well-established ways of working with the food industry to prevent disruption – and we are using these to support preparations for leaving the EU.’

See. It's alright really because May's Govt has got it all under control.

It's also amazing how companies who are all about making profits for their shareholders are willing to throw their money away recruiting in the EU and paying redundancies in the UK just to further Project Fear!!

[Glyn_Wigley]

  It is not EU funding, it is the pittance they give us back out of our own contributions. How can they be funding us when we contribute more than they give us back.
   The British tax payer is funding their projects as well as our own.

Well, once the British government start paying for stuff instead of the EU, that'll be exactly the same, they'll only be spending our own money won't they? Same as local government too. They both cost us more than we get back.

But we don't get membership of the Customs Union and Single Market - the biggest boost to businesses in the country we've currently got - from Central and local government. Perhaps we're getting rid of the wrong strata of governance..?