Brexit deal

[Axholme Lion]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584

For anyone interested x

Done and shared, thanks for the link Donny, it's amazing to watch how fast the number is rising.

Already 620.000 signed up for this in 12 hours but my Reply #2120 above would still apply I am guessing

An empty vessel makes the most noise.

[Not Now Kato]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584

For anyone interested x

Done and shared, thanks for the link Donny, it's amazing to watch how fast the number is rising.

Already 620.000 signed up for this in 12 hours but my Reply #2120 above would still apply I am guessing

An empty vessel makes the most noise.

 
As you amply demonstrate.

[MachoMadness]

A very good point here: https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1108480028533293057

That speech last night was abhorrent in every way. During the referendum campaign, an MP was shot and killed by a lunatic who was stoked up by talk like this. Truly disgusting.

[BillyStubbsTears]

No BS. I was just having a break from dealing with your nonsense.

It is very, very easy. You have a policy to find out what the opinion of MPs is. You hold a series of indicative votes in the House on different possible outcomes and you develop your EU negotiation policy from there, knowing what support you have at home.

What May has done instead is to determine her policy without talking to anyone outside her immediate advisory group, then spent two years negotiating a position that is THE least supported one in the House and the country. And then, when that is roundly rejected, she insists that everyone else change their minds.

It about your philosophical approach. Do you seek a consensus position that brings people together, or do you ignore people, then hector and insult them when they don't agree with you.

For the record, if she'd taken the approach I suggest, I think she'd have found a majority prepared to support some form of Norway+ deal. That would have torn the Tory party apart, but, frankly, tough shit. What she has done is to put holding the Tory party together at the top of the agenda, and I suspect the final outcome will seem that aim dashed anyway.

[Not Now Kato]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RFANVY5Zls&feature=youtu.be

[BillyStubbsTears]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584

For anyone interested x

Done and shared, thanks for the link Donny, it's amazing to watch how fast the number is rising.

Already 620.000 signed up for this in 12 hours but my Reply #2120 above would still apply I am guessing

Looks like the site has overloaded and crashed, maybe a temporary glitch.

I can see why the site crashed. The number of signatories is currently increasing by nearly 4000 per minute.

Currently approaching 1.25 million. Increasing at the rate of 50 per second.

[The Red Baron]

You know what? It's a sad statement on where discussion has got to when a smart bloke like Wing Co thinks that any of us are taking pleasure in seeing our country humiliate itself like this, and run the risk of stumbling into economic catastrophe.

Isn't it possible for intelligent, honest  people to disagree without being seen as simply wanting to win an argument?

Intelligent and honest people can disagree, but intelligent honest people give alternatives too.
You lot don't, just moan and criticise and don't come up with realistic alternatives.

This is a gem. I think I'm going to print it out and frame it.

I assume you've not bothered reading g the 70 pages on this thread or the 100 and odd on the other one where the pros and cons of everything from No Deal to Ref2 have been discussed to exhaustion? You see that as just moaning and criticising?

Here's the summary:
No Deal. Total freedom for us to do whatever we want trade wise and politically. But the consequence being that we have a long, slow hit to our economy over the long term, and an unknown immediate hard and sharp hit. No one suggests we can come out net positive for a generation or more. Crisis in NI. Absolutely not what anyone on the Leave side was proposing in 2016. Supported now only by people on the Far Right.

May's deal: Sorts out the Irish problem short term by tying us into the CU. Possibility of us leaving if a technical solution to NI is found in the future, but no-one knows what that is. Supported by centrist Tories. Opposed by everyone else. Still results in a long slow economic hit.

Norway+ deal: Keeps us in the SM and CU. We leave the political aspects of the EU  Minimises the economic hit. Proposed loudly and frequently by Farage in 2016. Now apparently it's a betrayal of Brexit. Possibly supported by Labour and a group of other MPs

Ref 2: Puts the question back to the people with a proper understanding of the issues,and multiple options. Difficult to implement given the number of politicians who have upped the ante by calling it a betrayal of democracy.

There you go. Take your pick. Discuss any of the above like an adult.

Or just complain that everyone who disagrees with you is a moaning traitor. Your choice.

BST

Surely there is no economic hit in Norway-plus. That's why, superficially at least, it's attractive. The odd thing is that it doesn't seem to have much support amongst MPs. Labour accepts the Customs Union part of it, but not the Single Market.

TBH, I think this has been a huge failure on the part of Remainers. Instead of spending three years trying to reverse the result of the Referendum, Norway-plus is what they should have got behind.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB
The hit would come from the fact that we'd have zero say over future changes to SM and CU rules. We'd just have to adopt them and adapt to them.

I agree by the way. The problem is that Corbyn has refused to lead on that be side he's ideogically against the SM.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Good old Nige.

https://mobile.twitter.com/itvpeston/status/1108511980908875778

With of The People, eh?

[Axholme Lion]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584

For anyone interested x

Done and shared, thanks for the link Donny, it's amazing to watch how fast the number is rising.

Already 620.000 signed up for this in 12 hours but my Reply #2120 above would still apply I am guessing

An empty vessel makes the most noise.

 
As you amply demonstrate.

[SydneyRover]

TRB
The hit would come from the fact that we'd have zero say over future changes to SM and CU rules. We'd just have to adopt them and adapt to them.

I agree by the way. The problem is that Corbyn has refused to lead on that be side he's ideogically against the SM.

It doesn't quite sound like taking back control BST.

[Donnywolf]

                                          696,204 signatures on the Petition now to Revoke Article 50

Site keeps crashing as around 4000 people a minute are adding their names. It takes 100,000 signatures to "request" Parliament to consider whether to debate it - and will be largely useless if they dont find time to decide whether to daebate it and / or dont find the time to do so

[Not Now Kato]

TRB
The hit would come from the fact that we'd have zero say over future changes to SM and CU rules. We'd just have to adopt them and adapt to them.

I agree by the way. The problem is that Corbyn has refused to lead on that be side he's ideogically against the SM.

It doesn't quite sound like taking back control BST.

We were never going to be able to, as many people failed to understand.

[BillyStubbsTears]

It's not about the petition starting a debate in Parliament. It's about it changing the public agenda. It needs several million to do that. That then gives ammunition to fire back at the Will of The People argument.

It's about changing public perception.

Farage's Fifty against three quarters of a million in London this weekend is the sort of thing that commands attention.

[Boomstick]

                                          696,204 signatures on the Petition now to Revoke Article 50

Site keeps crashing as around 4000 people a minute are adding their names. It takes 100,000 signatures to "request" Parliament to consider whether to debate it - and will be largely useless if they dont find time to decide whether to daebate it and / or dont find the time to do so

Let's see if it gets anywhere near 17.5 million.
If course we all know it won't.
Pointless exercise.

[Boomstick]

No BS. I was just having a break from dealing with your nonsense.

It is very, very easy. You have a policy to find out what the opinion of MPs is. You hold a series of indicative votes in the House on different possible outcomes and you develop your EU negotiation policy from there, knowing what support you have at home.

What May has done instead is to determine her policy without talking to anyone outside her immediate advisory group, then spent two years negotiating a position that is THE least supported one in the House and the country. And then, when that is roundly rejected, she insists that everyone else change their minds.

It about your philosophical approach. Do you seek a consensus position that brings people together, or do you ignore people, then hector and insult them when they don't agree with you.

For the record, if she'd taken the approach I suggest, I think she'd have found a majority prepared to support some form of Norway+ deal. That would have torn the Tory party apart, but, frankly, tough shit. What she has done is to put holding the Tory party together at the top of the agenda, and I suspect the final outcome will seem that aim dashed anyway.

Wow, still no answer and more waffle piffle and flannel.

Again
 out of your previously stated exit options l, which is your preferred, and how would you get it through Parliament?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Meanwhile the more I think about May's speech last night, the more bizarrely unsettling it seems.

She's had one aim since Jan 2017. To keep the Tory party together and fight off any thread from the Right.

That was why she made the disastrous decision back then to insist that Brexit meant leaving the CU and SM. I DIDNT automatically mean that, but she chose to make that equivalence.

That was the decision that led us to the shithole we are now in. Because she's then spent 2 years trying to find a formula that gives her that Brexit while not f**king NI. And the formula she found is anathema to the far-Right of her party (because it doesn't guarantee we leave the CU) and to anyone to the left of Ken Clarke (because it implies we DO leave the CU).

f**king disastrous  leadership. Triangulation is supposed to be about finding something everyone can hold their nose and buy into. She's found something that everyone feels compelled to reject.

But then. That speech last night.

What was the aim?

She's gone in front of the nation to say, "I'm right, everyone else is wrong. And to prove I'm right, I'm going to take the country into the last few hours before the biggest calamity since 1939, with no plan of what to do except insist everyone agrees I'm right."

And in doing that, she's also said to the population that elected MPs are the enemy.

Stop and think about it.

Her aim to keep the Tory party together is shot. You can't find common ground on this between Rees-Mogg and Grieve. So that's her primary aim gone.

By pouring vitriol on MPs last night, she's just guaranteed that her deal will be rejected again. Look at the right hand image here.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Peston/status/1108642820989075457

That is a TORY MP who she needs on side to get her deal passed.



That speech has fatally holed all her plans. And fanned the populist, anti-MP feeling. It is simultaneously the most incompetent and most dangerous speech I have ever heard from a British PM.

[Axholme Lion]

                                          696,204 signatures on the Petition now to Revoke Article 50

Site keeps crashing as around 4000 people a minute are adding their names. It takes 100,000 signatures to "request" Parliament to consider whether to debate it - and will be largely useless if they dont find time to decide whether to daebate it and / or dont find the time to do so

Let's see if it gets anywhere near 17.5 million.
If course we all know it won't.
Pointless exercise.

The remainers with this petition remind me of Hitler sat in his bunker with the Red Army knocking at the door insisting he will still win the war!

[BillyStubbsTears]

You're embarrassing yourself BS. Read what I read.

You find out what Parliament will support.

I don't know what they will support because I'm not a f**king psychic. If I were PM, I'd have found out by holding indicative votes. Then I'd go I to negotiations with the EU knowing g what support I had at home, rather than piss 2 f**king years up the wall.

If there was no prospect of Parliament finding a majority for anything, I'd dissolve Parliament and put the question to a GE.

That's kind of how our system works. This control that you want to take back. That's how you operate that control.

[BillyStubbsTears]

                                          696,204 signatures on the Petition now to Revoke Article 50

Site keeps crashing as around 4000 people a minute are adding their names. It takes 100,000 signatures to "request" Parliament to consider whether to debate it - and will be largely useless if they dont find time to decide whether to daebate it and / or dont find the time to do so

Let's see if it gets anywhere near 17.5 million.
If course we all know it won't.
Pointless exercise.

The remainers with this petition remind me of Hitler sat in his bunker with the Red Army knocking at the door insisting he will still win the war!

And the Most f**king Hopeless Analogy of the Year Award goes to...

[SydneyRover]

Meanwhile the petition has gone viral with all major news sites talking about it and various celebs promoting it, the site has crashed a few times and then they have to close it for maintenance before rebooting, it's near 750k

[Not Now Kato]

                                          696,204 signatures on the Petition now to Revoke Article 50

Site keeps crashing as around 4000 people a minute are adding their names. It takes 100,000 signatures to "request" Parliament to consider whether to debate it - and will be largely useless if they dont find time to decide whether to daebate it and / or dont find the time to do so

Let's see if it gets anywhere near 17.5 million.
If course we all know it won't.
Pointless exercise.

The remainers with this petition remind me of Hitler sat in his bunker with the Red Army knocking at the door insisting he will still win the war!

You could better apply that comparison to TM's speech last night.

[The Red Baron]

TRB
The hit would come from the fact that we'd have zero say over future changes to SM and CU rules. We'd just have to adopt them and adapt to them.

I agree by the way. The problem is that Corbyn has refused to lead on that be side he's ideogically against the SM.

Where we are now, Norway-plus seems the  "best-worst" outcome. I wouldn't have started from where we did. We should have had comprehensive plans for No Deal in place before we triggered Article 50. If that meant we left the EU a year later, so be it. We would have left with a much better deal and probably would enjoy a much better future relationship with the EU as a result.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

You may recall that the official Leave campaign, headed by senior Tories who have been in the Cabinet during this shit show, said explicitly in their Referendum literature that this would all be sorted before we triggered A50.

https://mobile.twitter.com/peston/status/1102954208150634496?lang=en

So they said that they'd  negotiate a new deal before triggering A50. Instead, the f**king ruling party still hasn't negotiated WITH ITSELF what sort of deal they want, 103 weeks AFTER triggering A50.

[Not Now Kato]

                                          696,204 signatures on the Petition now to Revoke Article 50

Site keeps crashing as around 4000 people a minute are adding their names. It takes 100,000 signatures to "request" Parliament to consider whether to debate it - and will be largely useless if they dont find time to decide whether to daebate it and / or dont find the time to do so

Let's see if it gets anywhere near 17.5 million.
If course we all know it won't.
Pointless exercise.

The remainers with this petition remind me of Hitler sat in his bunker with the Red Army knocking at the door insisting he will still win the war!

And talking about bunkers....
 
https://news.sky.com/story/the-pms-conduct-puts-parliaments-long-term-vitality-in-peril-11671146
 

[Boomstick]

Meanwhile the petition has gone viral with all major news sites talking about it and various celebs promoting it, the site has crashed a few times and then they have to close it for maintenance before rebooting, it's near 750k

Is that it?  😂

[The Red Baron]

TRB

You may recall that the official Leave campaign, headed by senior Tories who have been in the Cabinet during this shit show, said explicitly in their Referendum literature that this would all be sorted before we triggered A50.

https://mobile.twitter.com/peston/status/1102954208150634496?lang=en

So they said that they'd  negotiate a new deal before triggering A50. Instead, the f**king ruling party still hasn't negotiated WITH ITSELF what sort of deal they want, 103 weeks AFTER triggering A50.

Which proves the point that the Tories made a huge error in choosing a Remainer as leader. That itself was a consequence of Cameron washing his hands of the mess he had created.

Although the field of candidates in the Tory leadership election was probably the weakest in history.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Meanwhile the petition has gone viral with all major news sites talking about it and various celebs promoting it, the site has crashed a few times and then they have to close it for maintenance before rebooting, it's near 750k

Is that it?  😂

And increasing at the rate of 80 per second before the site crashed.

That's every second. Nearly twice Farage's Fifty.

[The Red Baron]

Meanwhile the petition has gone viral with all major news sites talking about it and various celebs promoting it, the site has crashed a few times and then they have to close it for maintenance before rebooting, it's near 750k

Revoking Article 50 unilaterally without either a Referendum or a General Election before it would be an absolute disaster. If you want riots every weekend, that is the way to go.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I agree entirely TRB. This is about seizing the agenda though. Getting the message across that there are lots of other people with wills.

In the last 12 hours, that agenda has got three times as many signatories as one calling for No Deal did in six months.

It's already the third largest number of gov.uk petition signatories and folk only became aware of it last night.