Brexit deal

[BillyStubbsTears]

The point is, there's not a single one of those who is a skilled politician.

Skilled politicians are intelligent deal-makers. They know what their strengths and weaknesses are. They know when to attack and when to defend. When to threaten and when to collaborate.

Thatcher had an image as someone who always crusaded for precisely what she believed in, and contemplated no compromise. But nothing could be further from the truth, at least in her earlier years before she lost it. Thatcher was superb at playing her hand skillfully. Knowing what her strengths and weaknesses were and acting accordingly.

May was f**king dreadful at that.

I don't see anyone in that list who is any better than May.

[auckleyflyer]

Johnson for me! Now bear with me for a moment, he placed himself in the out camp purley for his career! Lent some much needed credibility to it as well. Probably wouldn't have won it without him siding.
It's a short term position as a general election can't be far off.
Let him have it and be exposed as the tit he is!! Will then purge him from politics forever, the short term pain will be worth it 😆

[ravenrover]

And by then a no deal Brexit mmmm yep just what the 52% voted for of course

[Mr1Croft]

Usually, the winner of Conservative Leadership contests is the candidate with the least enemies in the Party, and given how heavily split it is on Brexit you'd struggle to identify any of the front runners as the one with the least enemies.

If Sir Graham Brady puts his name forward as expected, then I expect him to poll more popular with MPs than any other runners, but I don't know if he would be so popular with the members given that is isn't a prominent figure outside of Westminster.

My money is on Sajid Javid. Remainer turned Leaver and the way he handled the whole Begum citizenship saga would have appealed to the typical Tory Member. 

[Donnywolf]

.... and Gove has now thrown his hat in the ring.

[SydneyRover]

Now one would think that a solicitor in the position of Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor in the British Conservative Party representing the government writing in a national newspaper would be playing it straight down line, no possible wriggle room here with his own and what is left of tory party credibility at stake.

''In a clear attack on Johnson, Gauke, writing in today’s Observer, warns that candidates who fail to acknowledge the “enormously harmful” effects of crashing out of the EU will fuel populism and risk doing untold harm to the economy and national interest''

''Enorously harmful''

So which one of the wreckers would like put their reputation on the line and stand up and say that he's wrong or being disingenuous?

[wilts rover]

Have a think on this for a minute. Johnson is the clear favourite among the Tory party membership. What will be the consequences for the party if he is not in the final two for those members to vote for?

[SydneyRover]

Have a think on this for a minute. Johnson is the clear favourite among the Tory party membership. What will be the consequences for the party if he is not in the final two for those members to vote for?

An interesting article on that subject Wilts:

This prime minister was destroyed by Brexit. And the next one will be too.

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/05/23/this-prime-minister-was-destroyed-by-brexit-and-the-next-one

Which was linked to from this one:

''The Tories have abandoned thought in favour of believing their own lies''

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/25/the-tories-have-abandoned-thought-in-favour-of-believing-their-own-lies

[BillyStubbsTears]

Have a think on this for a minute. Johnson is the clear favourite among the Tory party membership. What will be the consequences for the party if he is not in the final two for those members to vote for?

Interesting hypothetical question. But it won't happen in the real world. He needs 100-120 Tory MPs' votes to make the cut. He'll get that.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Gove's not that bad though, he does at least have a bit about him and has had a few decent policies in his role.  He's doing a fairly good job at environment.

A lot of them should be nowhere near though, but it will be an interesting battle.  Johnson is an idiot at times but people like him for some reason....

[BillyStubbsTears]

Gove can go f**k himself.

He's the most horrible of politicians - a self-serving, ex-Murdoch journalist wordsmith whose every word and every move is designed to further his own career.

His comment in the 2016 Referendum campaign about economists who pointed out the negatives of Brexit being like the experts who backed Hitler and how we shouldn't listen to experts (meaning we should trust our own prejudices over facts) were disgusting and in normal times would finish off a political career.

And it's not just my opinion about him being a moral vacuum. A cabinet minister recently said that Gove's career-ling wrestling match with his conscience was the longest unbeaten winning streak in political history.

That said, I do hope he wins. He did as much as anyone to tip us into this pike of shite. He deserves to have to face the consequences of having his career destroyed by having to deal with the reality of what he did.

[SydneyRover]

Have a think on this for a minute. Johnson is the clear favourite among the Tory party membership. What will be the consequences for the party if he is not in the final two for those members to vote for?

An interesting article on that subject Wilts:

This prime minister was destroyed by Brexit. And the next one will be too.

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/05/23/this-prime-minister-was-destroyed-by-brexit-and-the-next-one

Which was linked to from this one:

''The Tories have abandoned thought in favour of believing their own lies''

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/25/the-tories-have-abandoned-thought-in-favour-of-believing-their-own-lies

So we have Gove saying 1000's of economists saying wrexit will be bad, Gauke (above) saying it will be bad and now the Secretary of State for International development spelling out disaster.

 Mr Stewart was clear enough: “a no-deal Brexit would in a single day undermine 400 years of our reputation for economic stability and competence”, he tweeted on Sunday. He is right.

But that's OK cos Boris said we'll be fine and when such an honest well respected figure says something the population heed it, why? f**k knows?

So again, whom amongst us are prepared to stand up and say these stalwarts of the tory party are wrong and we'll be better with wrexit?

[BillyStubbsTears]

So Thornberry and McDonnell have openly and publicly told Corbyn he's wrong and that Labour must clearly support Ref2. Thornberry on TV last night was clearly having trouble holding her temper when talking about Corbyn's policy of trying to ride both horses. Even Richard Burgon who has been steadfastly against Ref2 sounded like he's coming round to that on the radio this morning.

Still, I'm sure they're all wrong and St Jeremy the Infallible has called it right all along...

[wilts rover]

If only they had a centerist leader with a clear policy to remain then they might have won nearly 4% of the vote. Which according to that party's Brexit spokesperson is an 'excellent result'. Wonder what a bad one would have been...

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm not sure what in earth your point is there Wilts, but I'm sure it's clear to you.

[Tarkovsky_Mikluzhkin]

I think Corbyn would have wanted to shed a few more Blairites to Change UK before coming out more strongly on Ref2, but after the other nights results they are probs off to join libdem anyway so might as well do it now and go the deselection route with the Blairites.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I think Corbyn would have wanted to shed a few more Blairites to Change UK before coming out more strongly on Ref2, but after the other nights results they are probs off to join libdem anyway so might as well do it now and go the deselection route with the Blairites.

Indeed. I mean it totally makes them have zero chance of winning an election but they may be popular in London at least...

I forget the theorist but there is a well spoken business strategy that applies to politics, middle of the road is the route to failure as you end up pleasing nobody.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP.

Things change.

For most of the post-War period, it was a given that you needed to appeal to the centre to win power. That was because most people identified themselves as having views that were close to the centre. Churchill, Major, Blair and Cameron all won power by presenting themselves as more moderate and closer to the centre than their opponents. Wilson, Heath and MacMillan held power for 20 years in an era where both sides basically bought into the same centrist narrative and there was little ideological difference between them. Thatcher was the one outlier, but even she didn't paint herself as an extremist initially, and she would have lasted only one term but for being supremely fortunate in having a terminally divided opponent at home and a fascist junta to fight abroad.

Things are different now. Both main parties have spun off to the extremes, while the party that should have gained from this (the LDs) hobbled itself by getting into bed with Cameron's Austerity drive. Add to that Brexit, which has driven a wedge between opinions and there is very little centre ground. How this pans out from here is anyone's guess. We've not seen a political landscape like this since the 1920s.

[Axholme Lion]

So Thornberry and McDonnell have openly and publicly told Corbyn he's wrong and that Labour must clearly support Ref2. Thornberry on TV last night was clearly having trouble holding her temper when talking about Corbyn's policy of trying to ride both horses. Even Richard Burgon who has been steadfastly against Ref2 sounded like he's coming round to that on the radio this morning.

Still, I'm sure they're all wrong and St Jeremy the Infallible has called it right all along...

Thornberry came across as the most arrogant person I think I've seen on tv on results night.

[Glyn_Wigley]

So Thornberry and McDonnell have openly and publicly told Corbyn he's wrong and that Labour must clearly support Ref2. Thornberry on TV last night was clearly having trouble holding her temper when talking about Corbyn's policy of trying to ride both horses. Even Richard Burgon who has been steadfastly against Ref2 sounded like he's coming round to that on the radio this morning.

Still, I'm sure they're all wrong and St Jeremy the Infallible has called it right all along...

Thornberry came across as the most arrogant person I think I've seen on tv on results night.

You obviously missed Mark Francois's egofest then.

[Bentley Bullet]

Alastair Campbell comes across as the most arrogant condescending person in politics.

[Axholme Lion]

So Thornberry and McDonnell have openly and publicly told Corbyn he's wrong and that Labour must clearly support Ref2. Thornberry on TV last night was clearly having trouble holding her temper when talking about Corbyn's policy of trying to ride both horses. Even Richard Burgon who has been steadfastly against Ref2 sounded like he's coming round to that on the radio this morning.

Still, I'm sure they're all wrong and St Jeremy the Infallible has called it right all along...

Thornberry came across as the most arrogant person I think I've seen on tv on results night.

You obviously missed Mark Francois's egofest then.

Bad losers, again! Brexit is coming.

[bobjimwilly]

Bad losers, again! Brexit is coming.

Remind us again how it's going to benefit everyone, especially the working class?

[DonnyOsmond]

Bad losers, again! Brexit is coming.

Remind us again how it's going to benefit everyone, especially the working class?

They never answer that.

[Axholme Lion]

Bad losers, again! Brexit is coming.

Remind us again how it's going to benefit everyone, especially the working class?

Thousands of Poles pushing down wages by taking work from those who need it most.

[BillyStubbsTears]

AL
I'm guessing you were too busy moaning about Liverpool to notice that interview where Farage said he didn't expect immigration to change much after Brexit.

You really, really don't get the extent to which you're being played do you?

Look at who runs the Brexit party. Look at who Farage's mates are. Look who the BP candidates were last week. Low grade City of London spivs and business people.

The Britain they want is low taxes for them and low wages for UK companies.  They KNOW how much you hate immigrants and they are playing to that. But the thought that they would lift a finger to make your life better is ridiculous.

[Axholme Lion]

AL
I'm guessing you were too busy moaning about Liverpool to notice that interview where Farage said he didn't expect immigration to change much after Brexit.

You really, really don't get the extent to which you're being played do you?

Look at who runs the Brexit party. Look at who Farage's mates are. Look who the BP candidates were last week. Low grade City of London spivs and business people.

The Britain they want is low taxes for them and low wages for UK companies.  They KNOW how much you hate immigrants and they are playing to that. But the thought that they would lift a finger to make your life better is ridiculous.

No one is going to make my life better but if I can stop people coming here and taking the piss that will do for me. Life is tough so we just have to deal with it. I will never be able to retire but who cares?

[Not Now Kato]

Bad losers, again! Brexit is coming.

Remind us again how it's going to benefit everyone, especially the working class?

Thousands of Poles pushing down wages by taking work from those who need it most.

Where do you get that thousands of Poles are pushing wages down from AL?  Oh, I know, the Daily Mail!
 
FFS, that myth has been disproved countless times, just more Brexit propaganda to sucker the gullible!
 

[Axholme Lion]

Bad losers, again! Brexit is coming.

Remind us again how it's going to benefit everyone, especially the working class?

Thousands of Poles pushing down wages by taking work from those who need it most.

Where do you get that thousands of Poles are pushing wages down from AL?  Oh, I know, the Daily Mail!
 
FFS, that myth has been disproved countless times, just more Brexit propaganda to sucker the gullible!

The smaller the pool of workers that employers have to pick from the higher the wage they have to pay to get them.

[BillyStubbsTears]

AL
That is folksy common sense but it doesn't mesh with the real world.

It assumes an economy is static with a fixed amount of work to go round. That ain't how the real world works.

Study after study after study have shown that hard working immigrants grow economies faster than they take out. So there's more work available. And wages don't get depressed.

I've just heard Philip Hammond on the radio bumbling through an interview about why wages haven't risen for ordinary workers over the past decade. He and Osborne are the problem. They were the ones who took growth out of the economy through their insane Austerity policies. And then the far Right moves in and says "Them f**king immigrants are what's keeping your living standards down".

It's the oldest story in politics. Goes back centuries. And have a guess who was the most successful exponent of that game (for a decade or so).