Brexit deal

[swintonrover]

At this point Billy it's a combination of flat out xenophobes, and people who are too proud to admit they believed the lies.
I'd like to hope that there is nobody stupid enough to still believe it is an economically sound idea.
The sooner somebody points out the direct correlation between areas of the country which have been trashed by the government and leave voters, the sooner this whole farce can be abandoned.

[RoversAlias]

This thread for me is a microcosm of why such complex and important decisions shouldn't be decided in Me v You public referendum votes anyway.

Can somebody please point out a bonafide reason why we should be happy to not be in the EU please.

[ss1953]

BST,

Please tell me the legitimate mechanism for reversing the UK governments triggering of Article 50.

As far as I understand, a legal agreement has been signed. How can it be put aside?

[SydneyRover]

At this point Billy it's a combination of flat out xenophobes, and people who are too proud to admit they believed the lies.
I'd like to hope that there is nobody stupid enough to still believe it is an economically sound idea.
The sooner somebody points out the direct correlation between areas of the country which have been trashed by the government and leave voters, the sooner this whole farce can be abandoned.

Unfortunately studies have pointed to xenophobia as strong reasons for brexit and as many brexiters are unable/unwilling to show any worthwhile reasons/benefit for exiting europe for themselves or the country one can't help feeling that this is indeed the case however abhorrent the conclusion may be.

[Glyn_Wigley]

And that oversimplification is exactly why binary referendums shouldn't be used on such complex issues.

it was a vote and as such should stand or democracy is dead

And it does stand. Until it's gets superceded, just like every other vote we've ever had in this country.

[RedJ]

This thread for me is a microcosm of why such complex and important decisions shouldn't be decided in Me v You public referendum votes anyway.

Can somebody please point out a bonafide reason why we should be happy to not be in the EU please.

So wi can tek bak controrrrrl a' ar Kitsonreh!

[DonnyOsmond]

BST,

Please tell me the legitimate mechanism for reversing the UK governments triggering of Article 50.

As far as I understand, a legal agreement has been signed. How can it be put aside?

It went to European Court a couple week ago and they ruled that the UK can unilaterally revoke article 50.

Edit: actually it was today.

[Filo]

BST,

Please tell me the legitimate mechanism for reversing the UK governments triggering of Article 50.

As far as I understand, a legal agreement has been signed. How can it be put aside?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46428579

[Boomstick]

At this point Billy it's a combination of flat out xenophobes, and people who are too proud to admit they believed the lies.
I'd like to hope that there is nobody stupid enough to still believe it is an economically sound idea.
The sooner somebody points out the direct correlation between areas of the country which have been trashed by the government and leave voters, the sooner this whole farce can be abandoned.

What a short sighted and insulting view. But I'll forgive you, and chalk it down to you being less informed.

[SydneyRover]

At this point Billy it's a combination of flat out xenophobes, and people who are too proud to admit they believed the lies.
I'd like to hope that there is nobody stupid enough to still believe it is an economically sound idea.
The sooner somebody points out the direct correlation between areas of the country which have been trashed by the government and leave voters, the sooner this whole farce can be abandoned.

What a short sighted and insulting view. But I'll forgive you, and chalk it down to you being less informed.

Lets take the emotion out of the above so you can help us out here and refute each point bs.

1/ xenophobia has been shown to be a reason for people to support brexit as other reasons show little material gain.


2/ It is possible people are reluctant to admit they have been duped, no one is happy to have the wool pulled over .....


3/ there anyone out there stupid enough to believe brexit is a sound idea? brexit is still supported despite mountains of evidence telling us it is a very bad idea.

4/Pointing out areas in Britain where they have been trashed by the government and leave voters. There are very few areas in Britain that do not have growing poverty with people relying on food banks to survive, not sure this can be attributed directly to leave voters except that the uncertainty over the last few years has shown to have affected trade, it can however be directly attributed to government incompetence as per austerity.

5/ short sighted view? It's mostly supportable by evidence, insulting? to whom? some people are just plain racists. I am not tagging you with this label bs but the guardian has just published information showing just that.

[SydneyRover]

Supporting articles of above post.
Govt incompetence/indefference
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/dec/04/four-million-british-workers-live-in-poverty-charity-says
Everday racism.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/dec/03/flatshare-bias-room-seekers-with-muslim-name-get-fewer-replies
More incompetence
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/dec/04/thousands-of-hard-to-teach-pupils-removed-from-schools-ofsted
More indifference
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/dec/03/uk-debt-case-study-council-more-aggressive-payday-lenders

[Boomstick]

At this point Billy it's a combination of flat out xenophobes, and people who are too proud to admit they believed the lies.
I'd like to hope that there is nobody stupid enough to still believe it is an economically sound idea.
The sooner somebody points out the direct correlation between areas of the country which have been trashed by the government and leave voters, the sooner this whole farce can be abandoned.

What a short sighted and insulting view. But I'll forgive you, and chalk it down to you being less informed.

Lets take the emotion out of the above so you can help us out here and refute each point bs.

1/ xenophobia has been shown to be a reason for people to support brexit as other reasons show little material gain.


2/ It is possible people are reluctant to admit they have been duped, no one is happy to have the wool pulled over .....


3/ there anyone out there stupid enough to believe brexit is a sound idea? brexit is still supported despite mountains of evidence telling us it is a very bad idea.

4/Pointing out areas in Britain where they have been trashed by the government and leave voters. There are very few areas in Britain that do not have growing poverty with people relying on food banks to survive, not sure this can be attributed directly to leave voters except that the uncertainty over the last few years has shown to have affected trade, it can however be directly attributed to government incompetence as per austerity.

5/ short sighted view? It's mostly supportable by evidence, insulting? to whom? some people are just plain racists. I am not tagging you with this label bs but the guardian has just published information showing just that.

To me and the vast majority of brexiteers, it shows how desperate and weak the remainers argument is by shouting xenophobia/ racism.
It's weak and pathetic.

I certainly don't think I've been duped, economics didn't come into it for me when I voted, and again I dare say the vast majority. It all boils down to ideology, something the left and remainers are scared to admit.

Do I think the government has done a good job ? No
Are the EU being awkward, yes you can't blame them.

[GazLaz]

Laurels

At this point Billy it's a combination of flat out xenophobes, and people who are too proud to admit they believed the lies.
I'd like to hope that there is nobody stupid enough to still believe it is an economically sound idea.
The sooner somebody points out the direct correlation between areas of the country which have been trashed by the government and leave voters, the sooner this whole farce can be abandoned.

What a short sighted and insulting view. But I'll forgive you, and chalk it down to you being less informed.

Lets take the emotion out of the above so you can help us out here and refute each point bs.

1/ xenophobia has been shown to be a reason for people to support brexit as other reasons show little material gain.


2/ It is possible people are reluctant to admit they have been duped, no one is happy to have the wool pulled over .....


3/ there anyone out there stupid enough to believe brexit is a sound idea? brexit is still supported despite mountains of evidence telling us it is a very bad idea.

4/Pointing out areas in Britain where they have been trashed by the government and leave voters. There are very few areas in Britain that do not have growing poverty with people relying on food banks to survive, not sure this can be attributed directly to leave voters except that the uncertainty over the last few years has shown to have affected trade, it can however be directly attributed to government incompetence as per austerity.

5/ short sighted view? It's mostly supportable by evidence, insulting? to whom? some people are just plain racists. I am not tagging you with this label bs but the guardian has just published information showing just that.

To me and the vast majority of brexiteers, it shows how desperate and weak the remainers argument is by shouting xenophobia/ racism.
It's weak and pathetic.

I certainly don't think I've been duped, economics didn't come into it for me when I voted, and again I dare say the vast majority. It all boils down to ideology, something the left and remainers are scared to admit.

Do I think the government has done a good job ? No
Are the EU being awkward, yes you can't blame them.

Economics didn’t come into it? Surely that’s the most important thing???

[Boomstick]

Laurels

At this point Billy it's a combination of flat out xenophobes, and people who are too proud to admit they believed the lies.
I'd like to hope that there is nobody stupid enough to still believe it is an economically sound idea.
The sooner somebody points out the direct correlation between areas of the country which have been trashed by the government and leave voters, the sooner this whole farce can be abandoned.

What a short sighted and insulting view. But I'll forgive you, and chalk it down to you being less informed.

Lets take the emotion out of the above so you can help us out here and refute each point bs.

1/ xenophobia has been shown to be a reason for people to support brexit as other reasons show little material gain.


2/ It is possible people are reluctant to admit they have been duped, no one is happy to have the wool pulled over .....


3/ there anyone out there stupid enough to believe brexit is a sound idea? brexit is still supported despite mountains of evidence telling us it is a very bad idea.

4/Pointing out areas in Britain where they have been trashed by the government and leave voters. There are very few areas in Britain that do not have growing poverty with people relying on food banks to survive, not sure this can be attributed directly to leave voters except that the uncertainty over the last few years has shown to have affected trade, it can however be directly attributed to government incompetence as per austerity.

5/ short sighted view? It's mostly supportable by evidence, insulting? to whom? some people are just plain racists. I am not tagging you with this label bs but the guardian has just published information showing just that.

To me and the vast majority of brexiteers, it shows how desperate and weak the remainers argument is by shouting xenophobia/ racism.
It's weak and pathetic.

I certainly don't think I've been duped, economics didn't come into it for me when I voted, and again I dare say the vast majority. It all boils down to ideology, something the left and remainers are scared to admit.

Do I think the government has done a good job ? No
Are the EU being awkward, yes you can't blame them.

Economics didn’t come into it? Surely that’s the most important thing???

Nope, not for me and I dare say the majority of voters. ( Except the richest 5%)

[RedJ]

So you're saying that the majority of voters didn't care that they were deliberately voting to make themselves poorer just to stick two fingers up to the EU.

Jesus wept.

[DonnyOsmond]

Laurels

At this point Billy it's a combination of flat out xenophobes, and people who are too proud to admit they believed the lies.
I'd like to hope that there is nobody stupid enough to still believe it is an economically sound idea.
The sooner somebody points out the direct correlation between areas of the country which have been trashed by the government and leave voters, the sooner this whole farce can be abandoned.

What a short sighted and insulting view. But I'll forgive you, and chalk it down to you being less informed.

Lets take the emotion out of the above so you can help us out here and refute each point bs.

1/ xenophobia has been shown to be a reason for people to support brexit as other reasons show little material gain.


2/ It is possible people are reluctant to admit they have been duped, no one is happy to have the wool pulled over .....


3/ there anyone out there stupid enough to believe brexit is a sound idea? brexit is still supported despite mountains of evidence telling us it is a very bad idea.

4/Pointing out areas in Britain where they have been trashed by the government and leave voters. There are very few areas in Britain that do not have growing poverty with people relying on food banks to survive, not sure this can be attributed directly to leave voters except that the uncertainty over the last few years has shown to have affected trade, it can however be directly attributed to government incompetence as per austerity.

5/ short sighted view? It's mostly supportable by evidence, insulting? to whom? some people are just plain racists. I am not tagging you with this label bs but the guardian has just published information showing just that.

To me and the vast majority of brexiteers, it shows how desperate and weak the remainers argument is by shouting xenophobia/ racism.
It's weak and pathetic.

I certainly don't think I've been duped, economics didn't come into it for me when I voted, and again I dare say the vast majority. It all boils down to ideology, something the left and remainers are scared to admit.

Do I think the government has done a good job ? No
Are the EU being awkward, yes you can't blame them.

Economics didn’t come into it? Surely that’s the most important thing???

Nope, not for me and I dare say the majority of voters. ( Except the richest 5%)

So you're either retired, unemployed or Jacob Rees-Mogg. It will affect yours and your families jobs, it will make people poorer especially an area like Doncaster. Even the pro-Brexit people have said any benefits will be 50 years down the line.

[Filo]

Laurels

At this point Billy it's a combination of flat out xenophobes, and people who are too proud to admit they believed the lies.
I'd like to hope that there is nobody stupid enough to still believe it is an economically sound idea.
The sooner somebody points out the direct correlation between areas of the country which have been trashed by the government and leave voters, the sooner this whole farce can be abandoned.

What a short sighted and insulting view. But I'll forgive you, and chalk it down to you being less informed.

Lets take the emotion out of the above so you can help us out here and refute each point bs.

1/ xenophobia has been shown to be a reason for people to support brexit as other reasons show little material gain.


2/ It is possible people are reluctant to admit they have been duped, no one is happy to have the wool pulled over .....


3/ there anyone out there stupid enough to believe brexit is a sound idea? brexit is still supported despite mountains of evidence telling us it is a very bad idea.

4/Pointing out areas in Britain where they have been trashed by the government and leave voters. There are very few areas in Britain that do not have growing poverty with people relying on food banks to survive, not sure this can be attributed directly to leave voters except that the uncertainty over the last few years has shown to have affected trade, it can however be directly attributed to government incompetence as per austerity.

5/ short sighted view? It's mostly supportable by evidence, insulting? to whom? some people are just plain racists. I am not tagging you with this label bs but the guardian has just published information showing just that.

To me and the vast majority of brexiteers, it shows how desperate and weak the remainers argument is by shouting xenophobia/ racism.
It's weak and pathetic.

I certainly don't think I've been duped, economics didn't come into it for me when I voted, and again I dare say the vast majority. It all boils down to ideology, something the left and remainers are scared to admit.

Do I think the government has done a good job ? No
Are the EU being awkward, yes you can't blame them.

Economics didn’t come into it? Surely that’s the most important thing???

Nope, not for me and I dare say the majority of voters. ( Except the richest 5%)

Not for me either, but then again I didn’t realise the full economic implications of Brexit, my view has changed, better the devil you know

[GazLaz]

Laurels

At this point Billy it's a combination of flat out xenophobes, and people who are too proud to admit they believed the lies.
I'd like to hope that there is nobody stupid enough to still believe it is an economically sound idea.
The sooner somebody points out the direct correlation between areas of the country which have been trashed by the government and leave voters, the sooner this whole farce can be abandoned.

What a short sighted and insulting view. But I'll forgive you, and chalk it down to you being less informed.

Lets take the emotion out of the above so you can help us out here and refute each point bs.

1/ xenophobia has been shown to be a reason for people to support brexit as other reasons show little material gain.


2/ It is possible people are reluctant to admit they have been duped, no one is happy to have the wool pulled over .....


3/ there anyone out there stupid enough to believe brexit is a sound idea? brexit is still supported despite mountains of evidence telling us it is a very bad idea.

4/Pointing out areas in Britain where they have been trashed by the government and leave voters. There are very few areas in Britain that do not have growing poverty with people relying on food banks to survive, not sure this can be attributed directly to leave voters except that the uncertainty over the last few years has shown to have affected trade, it can however be directly attributed to government incompetence as per austerity.

5/ short sighted view? It's mostly supportable by evidence, insulting? to whom? some people are just plain racists. I am not tagging you with this label bs but the guardian has just published information showing just that.

To me and the vast majority of brexiteers, it shows how desperate and weak the remainers argument is by shouting xenophobia/ racism.
It's weak and pathetic.

I certainly don't think I've been duped, economics didn't come into it for me when I voted, and again I dare say the vast majority. It all boils down to ideology, something the left and remainers are scared to admit.

Do I think the government has done a good job ? No
Are the EU being awkward, yes you can't blame them.

Economics didn’t come into it? Surely that’s the most important thing???

Nope, not for me and I dare say the majority of voters. ( Except the richest 5%)

A meltdown in the economy will probably affect your standard of living more if you are working class rather than if you are very wealthy.

[Boomstick]

So you're saying that the majority of voters didn't care that they were deliberately voting to make themselves poorer just to stick two fingers up to the EU.

Jesus wept.

I'm not saying that, keep up

[MachoMadness]

Say what you want about Treeza, she's managed to unite the DUP and Labour on the contempt of Parliament issue. So she's accomplished something, at least.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm totally confused at what you are saying BS (although in fairness, you are the only one who has responded).

Are you saying:
1) You do accept the opinion of the vast majority of economists, that Hard Brexit will make us poorer by an amount that utterly dwarfs the 2008 recession, but there are advantages that outweigh that. In which case, can you tell us what they are.

Or

2) That you don't believe the vast majority of economists' predictions. In which case, can you explain why not?

[phil old leake]

I agree that we didn’t have the full facts.  The really annoying aspect of all this are the politicians themselves.  Very few of them really care. All the resignations and all the rhetorical nonsense being spouted is about self glorification.  In my personal view this should not be about their personal views.  They all know how their own individual constituency voted. They are there to represent their constituents. No matter which way they voted they should all go with their constituents who they are elected to represent. If your constituents voted in and you think out unlucky  in my view you should represent the people who voted for you not your own personal view

[BillyStubbsTears]

Phil

No. That's absolutely not how our system works.

We don't elect delegates who are mandated to vote in a specific way. We elect representatives who are supposed to weigh up issues and decide in good conscience how to vote.

If you don't like how they vote, you can vote against them at the next GE.

THAT is how our system works.

[Herbert Anchovy]

Supporting articles of above post.
Govt incompetence/indefference
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/dec/04/four-million-british-workers-live-in-poverty-charity-says
Everday racism.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/dec/03/flatshare-bias-room-seekers-with-muslim-name-get-fewer-replies
More incompetence
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/dec/04/thousands-of-hard-to-teach-pupils-removed-from-schools-ofsted
More indifference
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/dec/03/uk-debt-case-study-council-more-aggressive-payday-lenders

I voted to leave because I don’t agree with the EU having any direct or indirect political influence in the mechanism of the UK. So, which category does that put me in? Racist, Xenophobic? Indifferent? Ignorant?

[Herbert Anchovy]

Phil

No. That's absolutely not how our system works.

We don't elect delegates who are mandated to vote in a specific way. We elect representatives who are supposed to weigh up issues and decide in good conscience how to vote.

If you don't like how they vote, you can vote against them at the next GE.

THAT is how our system works.

I’m sure you’re right, however that does contradict the opinion of many Remain supporting MP’s (particularly in London) who regularly say that theyre representing the opinions of their constituents who voted to remain by a majority.

[Boomstick]

I'm totally confused at what you are saying BS (although in fairness, you are the only one who has responded).

Are you saying:
1) You do accept the opinion of the vast majority of economists, that Hard Brexit will make us poorer by an amount that utterly dwarfs the 2008 recession, but there are advantages that outweigh that. In which case, can you tell us what they are.

Or

2) That you don't believe the vast majority of economists' predictions. In which case, can you explain why not?

I accept there may be economic consequences, but nowhere near the exaggerated claims of remainers, that use the economic argument to argue their ideological standpoint.
I also believe it will mainly affect the rich and London more than anywhere else.

I voted leave for 2 reasons.

1. British sovereignty ( we vote a government to govern our country, and I don't want the undemocratic e.u having indirect control)

2. Immigration, we are a small island with limited infrastructure and services.
By all means come here, but it needs to be MUTUALLY beneficial .
Perhaps a point based system ?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BS
On what evidence do you base your belief that the economic consequences won't be as bad as the vast majority of economists predict?
Do you believe that they are all politically motivated, and have compromised their professional integrity to mislead the country?

[Boomstick]

BS
On what evidence do you base your belief that the economic consequences won't be as bad as the vast majority of economists predict?
Do you believe that they are all politically motivated, and have compromised their professional integrity to mislead the country?

I didn't say the vast majority of economists.

[BillyStubbsTears]

No. I did.

The vast majority of economists predict a very severe and very long term economic hit.

Why don't you believe them?

[Glyn_Wigley]

I agree that we didn’t have the full facts.  The really annoying aspect of all this are the politicians themselves.  Very few of them really care. All the resignations and all the rhetorical nonsense being spouted is about self glorification.  In my personal view this should not be about their personal views.  They all know how their own individual constituency voted. They are there to represent their constituents. No matter which way they voted they should all go with their constituents who they are elected to represent. If your constituents voted in and you think out unlucky  in my view you should represent the people who voted for you not your own personal view

In which case Teresa May - whose constituency voted Remain - should be arguing and voting against her own deal! Explain that one away.