Brexit deal

[BillyStubbsTears]

HA

The Italy thing.

All EU Govts decided, freely in the early 2000s to keep Govt deficits to less than 3% of GDP.

For what it's worth, I think that was badly mistaken. But it was a decision that Govts of all the countries signed up to. It wasn't a diktat of the EU.

[The Red Baron]

Having just watched the debate, I have to say that Corbyn played a blinder.

Did he say anything? I thought he just left it to Starmer?

[drfchound]

Having just watched the debate, I have to say that Corbyn played a blinder.

Did he say anything? I thought he just left it to Starmer?

If he did keep quiet it was probably what HA thought he played a blinder.
He couldn’t put his foot in it.

[wilts rover]

Having just watched the debate, I have to say that Corbyn played a blinder.

Did he say anything? I thought he just left it to Starmer?

HA will have to clarify which debate he meant but Corbyn had just sat down after his reply to May's opening address of the main Brexit debate if that helps. Starmer spoke (and won) the legal advice declaration earlier this afternoon.

[wilts rover]

A couple of bits of useless trivia.

Theresa May lost more votes today than Gordon Brown did in his entire premiership.

From the formation of the English Parliament by Magna Carta in 1215, through the turmoil of the Civil Wars and the extension to the UK Parliament in 1801 - this is the first time EVER that MP's have found the Government to be in contempt of Parliament.

[Filo]

A couple of bits of useless trivia.

Theresa May lost more votes today than Gordon Brown did in his entire premiership.

From the formation of the English Parliament by Magna Carta in 1215, through the turmoil of the Civil Wars and the extension to the UK Parliament in 1801 - this is the first time EVER that MP's have found the Government to be in contempt of Parliament.

And yet she still ploughs on regardless, ignoring all around her

[Herbert Anchovy]

 

Having just watched the debate, I have to say that Corbyn played a blinder.

Did he say anything? I thought he just left it to Starmer?

If he did keep quiet it was probably what HA thought he played a blinder.
He couldn’t put his foot in it.

😁 That’s not what I meant but it’s a fair point!!

[Akinfenwa]

HA

The Italy thing.

All EU Govts decided, freely in the early 2000s to keep Govt deficits to less than 3% of GDP.

For what it's worth, I think that was badly mistaken. But it was a decision that Govts of all the countries signed up to. It wasn't a diktat of the EU.

Well that's just great.

Millions of lives ruined due to double digit % unemployment for the last six years. All seemingly justified of course, because the European Union, as it does, provided a way for the political class of Italy to vote away their ability to do anything about it 15 years ago. And with it went the ability of the ordinary Italians to hold anyone to account for it via the ballot box.

They don't want these levels of unemployment anymore. They want to change it. But they can't. And that's that!

Where's that David Davis quote again? A real favourite of the anti-Brexit brigade. Something about democracies being able to change their mind. Well someone had better f**king let the Italians know about it! No wonder they're now pretty much desperate enough to vote any old unsavoury, agitating Kitson like Salvini into power who says he'll change things and stand up for them. And I don't blame them one bit. The same might happen here soon if things go the way they're going.

Democratic accountability. Or a lack thereof, is one of the most compelling arguments AGAINST the European Union. The political class of a nation gradually moving politics and the decisions (and the accountability that goes with it) which affect the lives of ordinary people, above and beyond the reach of those same ordinary people. Surprise, surprise! They don't seem to like this indirect, remote form of politics very much.

How many more nations need to go the same way as Italy before these politicians actually get the message?

[Pancho Regan]

I'm in favour of a 2nd Referendum.
But did we really need a 2nd Brexit thread on here?

[Axholme Lion]

I'm in favour of a 2nd Referendum.
But did we really need a 2nd Brexit thread on here?

There's already been one referendum but for most on here that's not enough.
We need to keep voting until we get the 'right' result. It's EU policy.

[IDM]

It would have been ideal to have been able to vote for a clearly defined Brexit, don’t you think, regardless of whether you vote leave or stay.?

We will end up with a situation which satisfies no one..

Great idea it was to vote for a massive change when no one knew what it meant in reality, with no chance to reverse or reinforce the original outcome..  where’s the democracy in that.?

My argument isn’t about leave or remain, it’s about having clarity..  a vote on the deal or a 2nd referendum may give a larger leave majority but at least that would be on the grounds of more realistic information..

[Boomstick]

It would have been ideal to have been able to vote for a clearly defined Brexit, don’t you think, regardless of whether you vote leave or stay.?

We will end up with a situation which satisfies no one..

Great idea it was to vote for a massive change when no one knew what it meant in reality, with no chance to reverse or reinforce the original outcome..  where’s the democracy in that.?

My argument isn’t about leave or remain, it’s about having clarity..  a vote on the deal or a 2nd referendum may give a larger leave majority but at least that would be on the grounds of more realistic information..

That argument doesn't work, it can be applied to all elections.
When people voted for Bliar, did they demand another vote after he took us into an illegal war killing thousands and leading to the creation of isis?
It's impossible to know the full facts of what may happen in the future.

[bobjimwilly]

When people voted for Bliar, did they demand another vote after he took us into an illegal war killing thousands and leading to the creation of isis?

There's a general election every 5 years; people knew they would have a vote to shoe him out and when.  Brexit is irreversible; for the next generation or 2 at least.

[RedJ]

It would have been ideal to have been able to vote for a clearly defined Brexit, don’t you think, regardless of whether you vote leave or stay.?

We will end up with a situation which satisfies no one..

Great idea it was to vote for a massive change when no one knew what it meant in reality, with no chance to reverse or reinforce the original outcome..  where’s the democracy in that.?

My argument isn’t about leave or remain, it’s about having clarity..  a vote on the deal or a 2nd referendum may give a larger leave majority but at least that would be on the grounds of more realistic information..

That argument doesn't work, it can be applied to all elections.
When people voted for Bliar, did they demand another vote after he took us into an illegal war killing thousands and leading to the creation of isis?
It's impossible to know the full facts of what may happen in the future.

Switzerland. They regularly have referendums and aren't afraid to reverse the decision when they realise they got it wrong. That undemocratic fascist dictatorship!

[Axholme Lion]

It would have been ideal to have been able to vote for a clearly defined Brexit, don’t you think, regardless of whether you vote leave or stay.?

We will end up with a situation which satisfies no one..

Great idea it was to vote for a massive change when no one knew what it meant in reality, with no chance to reverse or reinforce the original outcome..  where’s the democracy in that.?

My argument isn’t about leave or remain, it’s about having clarity..  a vote on the deal or a 2nd referendum may give a larger leave majority but at least that would be on the grounds of more realistic information..

As far as I remember the referendum was clear enough, leave or remain?
Definition of leave:A1 [ I or T ] to go away from someone or something, for a short time or permanently:

I'll be leaving at five o'clock tomorrow.

He left the house by the back door.

She left the group of people she was with and came over to speak to us.

The bus leaves in five minutes.

[GazLaz]

It would have been ideal to have been able to vote for a clearly defined Brexit, don’t you think, regardless of whether you vote leave or stay.?

We will end up with a situation which satisfies no one..

Great idea it was to vote for a massive change when no one knew what it meant in reality, with no chance to reverse or reinforce the original outcome..  where’s the democracy in that.?

My argument isn’t about leave or remain, it’s about having clarity..  a vote on the deal or a 2nd referendum may give a larger leave majority but at least that would be on the grounds of more realistic information..

As far as I remember the referendum was clear enough, leave or remain?
Definition of leave:A1 [ I or T ] to go away from someone or something, for a short time or permanently:

I'll be leaving at five o'clock tomorrow.

He left the house by the back door.

She left the group of people she was with and came over to speak to us.

The bus leaves in five minutes.

The bus leaves in 5 minutes, but you still have to decide which bus to get on don’t you. There isn’t just one bus that takes you everywhere.

[RedJ]

There were people voting for all different kinds of Leave. No one had any idea what we'd come out with - and of course, there were people voting for a version of Leave that was pure fantasy.

All of your examples are clear examples of something that we know exactly what will happen. We're a few months away from our exit date and we still don't really properly know.

[Bentley Bullet]

Despite the Brexit subject being at saturation proportions on this forum, there is still a clash on if we should stay or go.

https://youtu.be/BN1WwnEDWAM

[Axholme Lion]

Despite the Brexit subject being at saturation proportions on this forum, there is still a clash on if we should stay or go.

https://youtu.be/BN1WwnEDWAM

So the only sensible option is to take the result at its word regarding the question asked and leave now making it a clean break. No divorce bill, just leave.
Why can people not accept the result? I guarantee if remain had won we would have never heard another thing about this.

[BillyStubbsTears]

AL

As numerous people have noted, that was the problem with the Referendum in 2016..

Leave was a single, well defined outcome.

Leave was an umbrella term that covered dozens of potential outcomes.

There was never and there still isn't anything remotely close to a majority for a No Deal Brexit. That was barely even discussed in 2016 and it certainly wasn't advocated by the Leave campaign.

Leaving on those terms would be the ultimate perversion of the Referendum result.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Despite the Brexit subject being at saturation proportions on this forum, there is still a clash on if we should stay or go.

https://youtu.be/BN1WwnEDWAM

So the only sensible option is to take the result at its word regarding the question asked and leave now making it a clean break. No divorce bill, just leave.
Why can people not accept the result? I guarantee if remain had won we would have never heard another thing about this.

Nigel Farage didn't guarantee this. The exact reverse, in fact. So anything you guarantee is worthless.

[Axholme Lion]

AL

As numerous people have noted, that was the problem with the Referendum in 2016..

Leave was a single, well defined outcome.

Leave was an umbrella term that covered dozens of potential outcomes.

There was never and there still isn't anything remotely close to a majority for a No Deal Brexit. That was barely even discussed in 2016 and it certainly wasn't advocated by the Leave campaign.

Leaving on those terms would be the ultimate perversion of the Referendum result.

No-one mentioned beforehand leaving with conditions. This was only a creation of the remainers after they unexpectedly lost.

[drfchound]

It is hard to imagine that anyone thought we could just leave, without any conditions.

[Axholme Lion]

AL

As numerous people have noted, that was the problem with the Referendum in 2016..

Leave was a single, well defined outcome.

Leave was an umbrella term that covered dozens of potential outcomes.

There was never and there still isn't anything remotely close to a majority for a No Deal Brexit. That was barely even discussed in 2016 and it certainly wasn't advocated by the Leave campaign.

Leaving on those terms would be the ultimate perversion of the Referendum result.

No need to worry though agent May has done a cracking job of creating such a rotten deal that we will probably end up staying in, either officially or by any other name. More decades of misery and serfdom to come...

[Axholme Lion]

It is hard to imagine that anyone thought we could just leave, without any conditions.

Why? It was a simple enough question. However big business and the powers that be have conspired to betray us all.

[Axholme Lion]

 I would rather belong to a poor nation that was free than to a rich nation that had ceased to be in love with liberty.

[Bentley Bullet]

I thought we could leave without conditions. I thought the whole reason for leaving was to rid ourselves of conditions. Surely I wasn't alone in thinking this?

[tommy toes]

I thought we could leave without conditions. I thought the whole reason for leaving was to rid ourselves of conditions. Surely I wasn't alone in thinking this?

You are right BB. Everrone I know who voted Leave voted to do just that. Leave without all this negotiation. A clean break.
Now that some of them have realised that this would be a disaster they have changed their minds.
Only a second vote will sort this out.

[roversdude]

I thought I could just leave first wife, I soon learnt that wasn’t the case

[Axholme Lion]

I thought we could leave without conditions. I thought the whole reason for leaving was to rid ourselves of conditions. Surely I wasn't alone in thinking this?

EXACTLY! It's not hard to understand is it?