Brexit deal

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Is there anyone, on any side of the political coin, who we can trust to be PM at the moment.?

Starmer?

😂😂😂😂😂😂

[DonnyOsmond]

Barry Gardiner.

[DonnyOsmond]

Hopefully the Tories go with JRM. No one will take them seriously.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Starmer is the only politician in the country who is coming out of this shit storm with his reputation enhanced.

He's been strategic, calm, prepared to face down his own leader, consistent and in control of the facts.

[Boomstick]

Starmer is the only politician in the country who is coming out of this shit storm with his reputation enhanced.

He's been strategic, calm, prepared to face down his own leader, consistent and in control of the facts.

😂😂😂 Jesus wept. It's easy saying what someone shouldn't do, whilst not saying what they should do.

Non entity,

[BillyStubbsTears]

Aye BS

On which note...

Still waiting for you to tell us what May should be renegotiating.

Take your time.

[Boomstick]

Aye BS

On which note...

Still waiting for you to tell us what May should be renegotiating.

Take your time.

I think that's pretty obvious even for you, but I'll say it anyway.

Reassurances on the backstop, to make sure we're not stuck with it indefinately.

Do keep up old lad

[BillyStubbsTears]

Reassurances?

You'd go into a negotiation asking for reassurances?

That's just made my day.

I thought you were all for going in balls out and telling Europe what they can do with their deal?

Sounds like you're now wanting Merkel et al to give us pinky promises that they'll not be beastly to us in future.

Reassurances? Really?

[Boomstick]

Reassurances?

You'd go into a negotiation asking for reassurances?

That's just made my day.

I thought you we all for going in balls out and telling Europe what they can do with their deal?

Sounds like you're now wanting Merkel et al to give us pinky promises that they'll not be beastly to us in future.

Reassurances? Really?

I'd leave now, this moment, and would fall back on WTO terms,

or withhold the tens of billions we're gonna pay them, that they are desperate for until they concede certain issues.

However May, who were talking about here is doing something different.

Try and keep up, please.

[SydneyRover]

Reassurances?

You'd go into a negotiation asking for reassurances?

That's just made my day.

I thought you we all for going in balls out and telling Europe what they can do with their deal?

Sounds like you're now wanting Merkel et al to give us pinky promises that they'll not be beastly to us in future.

Reassurances? Really?

I'd leave now, this moment, and would fall back on WTO terms,

or withhold the tens of billions we're gonna pay them, that they are desperate for until they concede certain issues.

However May, who were talking about here is doing something different.

Try and keep up, please.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmInkxbvlCs

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Starmer is the only politician in the country who is coming out of this shit storm with his reputation enhanced.

He's been strategic, calm, prepared to face down his own leader, consistent and in control of the facts.

I agree he has been concise but I actually after he's in the easy position.  Labour's strategy of "we'd just negotiate better" is fantasy though. They were touching on this on the radio this morning, discussing why Corbyn is not pushing for no confidence in government and mentioning how behind it all they'd be in a very similar position in that there are multiple demands within his party.

As BST has said, who'd want to be PM right now?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Reassurances?

You'd go into a negotiation asking for reassurances?

That's just made my day.

I thought you we all for going in balls out and telling Europe what they can do with their deal?

Sounds like you're now wanting Merkel et al to give us pinky promises that they'll not be beastly to us in future.

Reassurances? Really?

I'd leave now, this moment, and would fall back on WTO terms,

or withhold the tens of billions we're gonna pay them, that they are desperate for until they concede certain issues.

However May, who were talking about here is doing something different.

Try and keep up, please.

There speaks someone who has no idea what 'WTO terms' really are.

You really ought to try and keep up, you know.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Starmer is the only politician in the country who is coming out of this shit storm with his reputation enhanced.

He's been strategic, calm, prepared to face down his own leader, consistent and in control of the facts.

I agree he has been concise but I actually after he's in the easy position.  Labour's strategy of "we'd just negotiate better" is fantasy though. They were touching on this on the radio this morning, discussing why Corbyn is not pushing for no confidence in government and mentioning how behind it all they'd be in a very similar position in that there are multiple demands within his party.

As BST has said, who'd want to be PM right now?

BFYP

With respect, you're not seeing the big picture here.

There are effectively two ways we can leave the EU.

We can remove ourselves from ALL the EU's systems and agreements. That's what Farage, Rees-Mogg and the ERG want.

Or we can stay inside some of the systems and agreements. That is where Starmer has been positioning Labour admittedly, having to pull Corbyn kicking and screaming into the real world.

Either one of those is a relatively easy thing to negotiate with the EU. The former, because we're effectively saying to them "we don't want or need you". The latter because we're effectively saying, "we want to retain a close relationship, based on many of the processes that are already working."

Starmer has spent the past two years talking to EU leaders and negotiators and laying the path for that sort of Brexit, if Labour were in a position to implement it. It has consequences. It means that we would remain bound by many of the rules of the EU systems. But it would be the least economically damaging Brexit.

May's problem is that she is being dragged towards the hard leave by the ERG-wing of her party, but she knows that would be economically catastrophic. So she's tried to negotiate a deal which keeps many of the benefits of retaining close links with the EU whilst satisfying the ERG that we have all the benefits of totally leaving. So she announced that we'd be leaving the SM and the CU (to satisfy the ERG) but then wants the benefits of close trade with the EU (which has led the EU to insist that we have the NI backstop).

That is an impossible deal to produce. As some of us have been saying for two years, and as she's now finally realising.

So, with respect, saying that Starmer would have no easier a job negotiating with the EU misses the point. He and Labour would have a FAR easier job, because they are starting from a different position, and looking for a more realistic outcome. Sure, Labour would have to address the criticism that their Brexit wasn't actually Brexit, but that's one for Labour to address with the electorate, not with the EU.

[SydneyRover]

Corbyn pushed May and the govt to maintain the parliamentary schedule finsh the 5 day debate and have the vote.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Starmer is the only politician in the country who is coming out of this shit storm with his reputation enhanced.

He's been strategic, calm, prepared to face down his own leader, consistent and in control of the facts.

I agree he has been concise but I actually after he's in the easy position.  Labour's strategy of "we'd just negotiate better" is fantasy though. They were touching on this on the radio this morning, discussing why Corbyn is not pushing for no confidence in government and mentioning how behind it all they'd be in a very similar position in that there are multiple demands within his party.

As BST has said, who'd want to be PM right now?

BFYP

With respect, you're not seeing the big picture here.

There are effectively two ways we can leave the EU.

We can remove ourselves from ALL the EU's systems and agreements. That's what Farage, Rees-Mogg and the ERG want.

Or we can stay inside some of the systems and agreements. That is where Starmer has been positioning Labour admittedly, having to pull Corbyn kicking and screaming into the real world.

Either one of those is a relatively easy thing to negotiate with the EU. The former, because we're effectively saying to them "we don't want or need you". The latter because we're effectively saying, "we want to retain a close relationship, based on many of the processes that are already working."

Starmer has spent the past two years talking to EU leaders and negotiators and laying the path for that sort of Brexit, if Labour were in a position to implement it. It has consequences. It means that we would remain bound by many of the rules of the EU systems. But it would be the least economically damaging Brexit.

May's problem is that she is being dragged towards the hard leave by the ERG-wing of her party, but she knows that would be economically catastrophic. So she's tried to negotiate a deal which keeps many of the benefits of retaining close links with the EU whilst satisfying the ERG that we have all the benefits of totally leaving. So she announced that we'd be leaving the SM and the CU (to satisfy the ERG) but then wants the benefits of close trade with the EU (which has led the EU to insist that we have the NI backstop).

That is an impossible deal to produce. As some of us have been saying for two years, and as she's now finally realising.

So, with respect, saying that Starmer would have no easier a job negotiating with the EU misses the point. He and Labour would have a FAR easier job, because they are starting from a different position, and looking for a more realistic outcome. Sure, Labour would have to address the criticism that their Brexit wasn't actually Brexit, but that's one for Labour to address with the electorate, not with the EU.

I take what you're saying.  The point I would make is that they then themselves would be unlikely to get it past parliament would they?  Not unless they won a general election with huge majorities, which is unlikely.  Granted if they were to go with the customs union option they may well get snp support which could be decisive for them.  But there are many in the labour party as you say who may not back it.  It's a tough one for Corbyn too, follow his party or his instincts.  In some ways a problem of his own making.

[Axholme Lion]

Did anyone hear the German and Polish politician on Radio 4 this morning?
When asked the German said there was no possibility of renegotiation as we had got a very good deal out of the EU. However when the Polish gentleman was asked the same question, he was very strongly of the opinion that in the interests of his country and citizens living in the UK that ANY DEAL with us would be preferable to no deal. Now this is directly the opposite of the line we are being fed by TM. So does this show who has the whip hand in the EU?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Did anyone hear the German and Polish politician on Radio 4 this morning?
When asked the German said there was no possibility of renegotiation as we had got a very good deal out of the EU. However when the Polish gentleman was asked the same question, he was very strongly of the opinion that in the interests of his country and citizens living in the UK that ANY DEAL with us would be preferable to no deal. Now this is directly the opposite of the line we are being fed by TM. So does this show who has the whip hand in the EU?

Has the thought that TM has been bullshitting us for the past two years not crossed your mind?

[Axholme Lion]

Did anyone hear the German and Polish politician on Radio 4 this morning?
When asked the German said there was no possibility of renegotiation as we had got a very good deal out of the EU. However when the Polish gentleman was asked the same question, he was very strongly of the opinion that in the interests of his country and citizens living in the UK that ANY DEAL with us would be preferable to no deal. Now this is directly the opposite of the line we are being fed by TM. So does this show who has the whip hand in the EU?

Has the thought that TM has been bullshitting us for the past two years not crossed your mind?

Exactly the point. So you agree we should have been playing hardball with the EU as it seems from the above that other members would negotiate properly but have been over ruled by the Germans and their mates in France.

[BillyStubbsTears]

AL.
I'll ask again. What concessions should we have got from the EU?

What were our strong negotiating cards to force those concessions?

[Axholme Lion]

What I want they won't give, but the Polish guy seemed to give the impression that they would be more flexible than what the EU in general are at the moment if a deal is the way we are going?
I want a no deal Brexit, so what I think is irrelevant really.

[Glyn_Wigley]

What I want they won't give, but the Polish guy seemed to give the impression that they would be more flexible than what the EU in general are at the moment if a deal is the way we are going?
I want a no deal Brexit, so what I think is irrelevant really.

If what you want is what the EU has said we can't have right from the start, and they said it before the referendum, then anybody still thinking they can get it after the referendum must have had their head up their backsides for the past two and a half years.

[Axholme Lion]

What I want they won't give, but the Polish guy seemed to give the impression that they would be more flexible than what the EU in general are at the moment if a deal is the way we are going?
I want a no deal Brexit, so what I think is irrelevant really.

If what you want is what the EU has said we can't have right from the start, and they said it before the referendum, then anybody still thinking they can get it after the referendum must have had their head up their backsides for the past two and a half years.

Which is why I would walk away, but that was not what it sounded like the Polish guy wanted to happen.

[Glyn_Wigley]

What I want they won't give, but the Polish guy seemed to give the impression that they would be more flexible than what the EU in general are at the moment if a deal is the way we are going?
I want a no deal Brexit, so what I think is irrelevant really.

If what you want is what the EU has said we can't have right from the start, and they said it before the referendum, then anybody still thinking they can get it after the referendum must have had their head up their backsides for the past two and a half years.

Which is why I would walk away, but that was not what it sounded like the Polish guy wanted to happen.

Well, if you're happy for the UK to get shafted in the ten years or so it'll take to negotiate trade deals, I can tell you I'm not.

[Axholme Lion]

What I want they won't give, but the Polish guy seemed to give the impression that they would be more flexible than what the EU in general are at the moment if a deal is the way we are going?
I want a no deal Brexit, so what I think is irrelevant really.

If what you want is what the EU has said we can't have right from the start, and they said it before the referendum, then anybody still thinking they can get it after the referendum must have had their head up their backsides for the past two and a half years.

Which is why I would walk away, but that was not what it sounded like the Polish guy wanted to happen.

Well, if you're happy for the UK to get shafted in the ten years or so it'll take to negotiate trade deals, I can tell you I'm not.

Shafted in what way?

[Glyn_Wigley]

What I want they won't give, but the Polish guy seemed to give the impression that they would be more flexible than what the EU in general are at the moment if a deal is the way we are going?
I want a no deal Brexit, so what I think is irrelevant really.

If what you want is what the EU has said we can't have right from the start, and they said it before the referendum, then anybody still thinking they can get it after the referendum must have had their head up their backsides for the past two and a half years.

Which is why I would walk away, but that was not what it sounded like the Polish guy wanted to happen.

Well, if you're happy for the UK to get shafted in the ten years or so it'll take to negotiate trade deals, I can tell you I'm not.

Shafted in what way?

In this way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtkP3Hkc1cM

[foxbat]

So watch the video clip and tell exactly just what is SO clever about Brexit.

Can ANY Brexit fan tell me in what tangible way their family will be better off if we leave ?

just man up and admit you were conned with all the others.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Foxbat

You're wasting your time.

The standard responses are:

1) We'll be better off. The overwhelming number of economists are wrong and/or Project Fear mongers.

2)It won't affect me. It'll only affect banks and big business. (Jesus wept...)

3) Sovereignty is more important than losing the equivalent of the entire NHS budget from our economy for the next several decades.

[IDM]

Don’t forget

4) we had the referendum and leave won, so we leave, end of, and bugger the consequences..

[BillyStubbsTears]

This is f**king gold dust.

'On Thursday, Mrs May told EU leaders: "Over the last two years, I hope that I have shown you that you can trust me to do what is right, not always what is easy, however that difficult that might be for me politically."

'She asked them to trust her judgement, adding: "There is a majority in my Parliament who want to leave with a deal, so with the right assurances this deal can be passed. Indeed, it is the only deal that is capable of getting through my Parliament." '

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46560807

"I hope I've shown you can trust me" followed by "There is a majority in my Parliament who want to leave with a deal."

She obviously treats the other EU leaders with as much contempt as she treats the rest of us.

The whole f**king point is that there ISN'T a majority for any SPECIFIC deal.

Does she think that the other leaders are stupid? Does she think they won't have really smart advisers who will be sending them minutes of what the actual situation in the UK is? Does she think that bullshitting like this is going to help the image of the UK?

[wilts rover]

No she doesn't think they are stupid Billy, exactly the opposite. She is hoping they are clever than her and can come up with some ideas to save her plan - because she hasn't got any!!!

'After arriving in Brussels with promises to help the prime minister, European leaders were left amazed when she turned up without any developed requests or ideas.'

'Accounts of the meeting suggest the prime minister’s speech, in which she called for help to get the agreement “over the line”, was repeatedly interrupted by Angela Merkel asking her what she actually wanted from them.'

'Senior UK government officials admitted that the prime minister did not bring any documented proposals with her to the meeting.'

'The approach puzzled EU diplomats, who for days before the conference had said they needed to see what proposals Ms May had come up with before they could respond to her request for aid.'

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-theresa-may-eu-angela-merkel-scraps-plan-meeting-juncker-european-council-summit-a8682786.html