Brexit deal

[Donnywolf]

Calling him biased was out of order imo. I am not an expert in these matters so will leave that there - and I had not idea what was going on in that hour !

One thing I do know is that Parliament should be modernised to make it more understandable to us the Electorate and that could come after (yes here it comes) an overhaul of the Electoral System itself

There is clear evidence that people are out of touch with Politics and think their Vote counts for nothing - so a fairer system should be introduced AND following that an overhaul of the archaic Parliamentary Procedures should follow.

Tradition is fine but its time for the assaciated crap to go !

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I think the Tory’s think he should be their puppet

Of course, however he is probably a bit the other way.  It's far too complex for me but there was a lot of more impartial people much cleverer than me questioning his decision yesterday.

Interesting corbyn again calling for an election. What if it returns another hung parliament or Tory win if it actually happens?

[SydneyRover]

Calling him biased was out of order imo. I am not an expert in these matters so will leave that there - and I had not idea what was going on in that hour !

One thing I do know is that Parliament should be modernised to make it more understandable to us the Electorate and that could come after (yes here it comes) an overhaul of the Electoral System itself

There is clear evidence that people are out of touch with Politics and think their Vote counts for nothing - so a fairer system should be introduced AND following that an overhaul of the archaic Parliamentary Procedures should follow.

Tradition is fine but its time for the assaciated crap to go !

Hear hear! sort out the house of lords, have elected MPs, reduce the numbers further, have a proper house of review.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I don't think Bercow is quite as bad as is made out but clearly he does follow an agenda that suits him.  I don't know if that's right of him to do but it's certainly another messy dimension.

The next few weeks are uncertain. Who knows what will happen, there's a lot of unanswered questions.

Every Speaker's 'agenda' is to stand up for Parliamentary Procedure against whomever is in government at the time. Are you saying that Bercow hasn't done this but acted in his own interest somehow?

[bobjimwilly]

I wish the government would for once just think of the country. There is a clear majority in the house that doesn't support a no deal brexit; May has tried and failed at getting a decent brexit deal; the only sensible option is to revoke article 50 and cancel brexit. They have the power to do that, and it's what they should do as, by their own admission, the country is better off economically remaining in the EU. BUT every MP has an ego that only just fit's inside the house of commons, so no MP will ever risk losing their seat at the next election based on the dated principle of having morals.... this is the problem, not whether Brexit is a good idea or not, as it's clearly a bad idea.

Just to add, I also like this idea that any new trading partner we have post brexit will be the best thing ever, and we're going to be able to import everything cheaper and make more money with exports. It's a fantastic dream based on absolutlely NOTHING, no historic trade deal ever worked like that, and every country knows that being in a trading bloc, rather than having bi-lateral agreements, is far better for your own economy. Economists around the world are telling the UK that, yet we don't listen to them because they are "experts"??? Bet you wouldn't invite a plumber around fix your oven though!

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

That's all well and good but the majority of the house and policy of the two main parties and both leaders is to deliver Brexit....

[Filo]

Few Torys that were going to vote against the deal have now said they will vote for the deal, the snakes are coming out of the grass one by one

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Few Torys that were going to vote against the deal have now said they will vote for the deal, the snakes are coming out of the grass one by one

Indeed and there's talk of some labour mps perhaps being persuaded.  Highly Unlikely but you never know....

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hard day at work?

Aye. Me an all. Meeting started at 8am. Just finished. Might be home by 22:00 if I'm lucky.

Good to know some folk can live the life of luxury while the rest of us deal with the shit storm that he created then walked away from.

https://mobile.twitter.com/dinosofos/status/1083303541563932672

[GazLaz]

Hard day at work?

Aye. Me an all. Meeting started at 8am. Just finished. Might be home by 22:00 if I'm lucky.

Good to know some folk can live the life of luxury while the rest of us deal with the shit storm that he created then walked away from.

https://mobile.twitter.com/dinosofos/status/1083303541563932672

I set of at 0545, just got in and got 2hrs work to do tonight, but after seeing that picture I’m getting the surf board out and going down the Don on it.

I saw him in Portugal a couple of years ago with his family. The security on the beach was unreal. There must have been a dozen that were obvious and I’m sure there were others we couldn’t see.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Saw Clegg in a park in Sheffield just before the 2015 election. He was taking his kids out. Surrounded by security swivel-heads.

No life.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Saw Clegg in a park in Sheffield just before the 2015 election. He was taking his kids out. Surrounded by security swivel-heads.

No life.

Says a lot about our country that there's a need for it. If a lowly backbencher like Jo Cox can be targeted...

[BillyStubbsTears]

Every age and place has its psychopaths who would do violence to those who disagree with them.

I do think that the whole atmosphere around Brexit has drawn more out from their lair though.

Like this one.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-lincolnshire-46810637

[Not Now Kato]

David Lammy MP said the following to Parliament. If only a lot more of our politicians, (on all sides), were as true to their principles for the benefit of their constituents......

Mr Speaker, the European Union was once just a remarkable dream.
A hope that our countries which fought and murdered each other, on an industrial scale twice in one century, could come together. A refusal to return to extreme nationalism. And a determination to prevent more bloody conflicts where tens of millions are killed.
The audacious idea of European Integration was motivated by fear. But it was made possible by shared ideals: democracy, human rights, equality, freedom, and a refusal to submit to the tyranny of fascism, ever again.
After the Second World War, in 1946, Winston Churchill said this:
“If Europe were once united in the sharing of its common inheritance, there would be no limit to” its “happiness,” “prosperity and glory.”
But today some Conservative colleagues talk about “total independence” from Europe as though it is a virtue. Let me remind them, Churchill understood the European dream is to build a whole bigger than the sum of its parts. He understood that it is about pooling sovereignty. Working together. Sharing Control.
Let us now be honest with the country. Total independence is a fantasy.It is the same idea that motivates an angry teenager to run away from their family. Total independence means throwing a tantrum and ending up in the cold. Total independence is selfishness. It is individualism, arrogance, superiority, a refusal to work together, and the break-down of the common good. Total independence will not solve our problems.
Total independence will lead to total isolation.
And let us be honest. Britain did not become Great in total isolation. Britain thrived by becoming the biggest Treaty-Signing power in the world. Britain thrived by signing more than 14,000 treaties in the modern age. We thrived by sharing our sovereignty, not by stockpiling it.
Our NATO membership compels us to deploy soldiers when our fellow members are attacked. The Paris Climate Accord is an agreement that demonstrates how we tackle global threats together, not alone. Even our membership of the WTO commits the UK to supra-national regulation and arbitration of its own.
Mr Speaker, Sovereignty is not an asset to be hoarded. It is a resource which only has value when it is spent.
The hard Brexiteers in this house say they want to Take Back Control. They say that we lost it because of the European Union. But in reality they are still mourning Suez. Britain’s last fling of the Colonial dice. Back then Anthony Eden failed to recognise that Britain was no longer capable of launching a solo imperial adventure. Let us not fall for the same hubris today.
When those on the other side of this debate say they want Empire 2.0. Let us ask, what does that mean? What was imperialism?What was colonialism? Let us not forget this today.
At its worst, the British Empire was exploitation and subjugation. Moral superiority that led to putting humans in shackles. The oppression of black and brown people because this country thought it knew best. Those countries once coloured pink on the globe were not won in negotiations, they were taken by force.
Today we need to build a new image of Britain. One that brings this country together after years of division. We have to use our imagination. Empire 2.0 is not it.
After the global embarrassment of Suez, Britain became the sick man of Europe. The EEC was set up in 1958, but Britain did not join until 1973.
In those years, GDP per head rose 95 per cent in France, Italy and West Germany. Britain only grew at half this rate. Our industry and economy had fallen behind.
Mr Speaker, Europe gave post-imperial Britain a chance to regain some wealth and dignity. In the 40 years since, our economy grew faster than France, Germany and Italy. We restored our position on the global stage. But it was not only our prosperity that increased.
Our allies in the US respected us for our seat at the top table of Europe.And the rest of the world saw us become a confident nation again.
A grown up country, prepared to give and take for the greater good.
The Brexiteer promise to Take Back Control in 2016 was nothing more than a deluded fantasy. A lie that divided friends and families. A lie that pandered to racism and xenophobia. And a lie that caused an extra six hundred and thirty eight Hate Crimes per month.
What does it say about the United Kingdom when the UN sends rapporteurs to warn us of increased racism in our country? What does it say about Britain when our politicians play on the fear of migrants, races and religions, to win votes? What did it say when Nigel Farage stood in front of a Nazi-inspired poster of refugees, with the caption “breaking point”?
The founder of the Labour Party, Keir Hardie, spoke of socialism’s “promise of freedom”. Its “larger hope for humanity”. And of “binding the races of the earth into one all-embracing brotherhood.”
To my good friends in the Party. Those who are still wavering, I ask honestly: can you really vote for this politics of division and hate?
Can you really vote to slash workers’ rights and protections?
Can you vote to give tax avoiders a sanctuary?
Can you vote to hand over more power to the clumsy hand of the market?
Mr Speaker, what I’m about to say is not fashionable. But our country’s story of renewal through Europe is a story of immigration. We grew as a nation because of free movement.
European migrants are not “citizens of nowhere” or “queue jumpers” as the Prime Minister would have us believe. Young, energetic, diverse and willing to pay taxes, EU citizens have given so much. They have done the jobs that our own would not do.
Around 3.8 million now live in Britain. Over their lifetimes, they pay in £78,000 more than they take out. But the contribution of European migrants has not only been financial. Our culture, our art, our music, and our food has been permanently improved.
Theresa May’s deal has emerged as a Frankenstein’s monster An ugly beast that no one voted for or wanted.
To appease hardliners, the transition period can at most be extended to 2022. This has eradicated our leverage – it is simply not enough time to negotiate a free trade deal. We are now on course for another cliff edge.
This deal does not Take Back Control, it gives it away. It surrenders our voting rights in the European Council, Commission and Parliament. For nothing in return. I cannot vote for any form of Brexit because every form of Brexit is worse for my constituents.
Mr Speaker, Brexit is a historic mistake.
It forgets the lessons of Britain’s past.
It forgets the value of immigrants.
It forgets that we cannot build a new Empire by force.
It forgets that in the modern world our nation will not flourish through isolation. But connection, cooperation and a new vision for the common good.
Brexit forgets why this continent came together, after two bloody wars.
Mr Speaker, this country is crying out for a second a chance. Seven hundred thousand marched on the streets of London. Millions more campaigned online and wrote to their MPs. They are all asking for one thing: an opportunity to right the wrong of 2016. Another shot at the imperfect but audacious European dream.
Or as Shakespeare put it in Richard the 2nd, from John of Gaunt:
“That England, that was wont to conquer others, hath made a shameful conquest of itself.”

[RedJ]

Any chance of a tl;dr?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I cannot put into words how f**king repulsive this man is.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46847169

He's openly doing two things here.

1) Saying the democratic process should be shelved because it might encourage gobshites like Stephen Yaxley-Lennon.

2) Actively encouraging gobshites like that and telling them they would be right to get out on the streets and swing punches.

Grayling is a Kitson of the first order. How in God's name did we end up with people like him in a position of power?

[GazLaz]

He’s another one who is just thick. He’s on the list with Gove and Javid of politicians I can’t stand.

As for the position we are in, the government is tangled up in a web of infinite bullshit. The more they wriggle the more they start to suffocate.

[wilts rover]

Just to prove you both right. In a committee hearing on Monday, Grayling was asked what the 'unforseen event' was that he had used to justify his awarded of the ferry contract to Seaborne Freight ferry under emergency powers, when the government have supposedly been planning for No Deal for 16 months?

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry

[GazLaz]

Just to prove you both right. In a committee hearing on Monday, Grayling was asked what the 'unforseen event' was that he had used to justify his awarded of the ferry contract to Seaborne Freight ferry under emergency powers, when the government have supposedly been planning for No Deal for 16 months?

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry

The tone and body language of the MP asking the question was superb. She was sat there knowing she had him bang to rights and that he was going to make himself look an absolute clown and she was loving it.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Just to prove you both right. In a committee hearing on Monday, Grayling was asked what the 'unforseen event' was that he had used to justify his awarded of the ferry contract to Seaborne Freight ferry under emergency powers, when the government have supposedly been planning for No Deal for 16 months?

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry

I'm sure I've seen that somewhere before...!

[Filo]

Just to prove you both right. In a committee hearing on Monday, Grayling was asked what the 'unforseen event' was that he had used to justify his awarded of the ferry contract to Seaborne Freight ferry under emergency powers, when the government have supposedly been planning for No Deal for 16 months?

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry

The tone and body language of the MP asking the question was superb. She was sat there knowing she had him bang to rights and that he was going to make himself look an absolute clown and she was loving it.

She’s a QC, they know how to make people squirm

[SydneyRover]

David Lammy MP said the following to Parliament. If only a lot more of our politicians, (on all sides), were as true to their principles for the benefit of their constituents......

Mr Speaker, the European Union was once just a remarkable dream.
A hope that our countries which fought and murdered each other, on an industrial scale twice in one century, could come together. A refusal to return to extreme nationalism. And a determination to prevent more bloody conflicts where tens of millions are killed.
The audacious idea of European Integration was motivated by fear. But it was made possible by shared ideals: democracy, human rights, equality, freedom, and a refusal to submit to the tyranny of fascism, ever again.
After the Second World War, in 1946, Winston Churchill said this:
“If Europe were once united in the sharing of its common inheritance, there would be no limit to” its “happiness,” “prosperity and glory.”
But today some Conservative colleagues talk about “total independence” from Europe as though it is a virtue. Let me remind them, Churchill understood the European dream is to build a whole bigger than the sum of its parts. He understood that it is about pooling sovereignty. Working together. Sharing Control.
Let us now be honest with the country. Total independence is a fantasy.It is the same idea that motivates an angry teenager to run away from their family. Total independence means throwing a tantrum and ending up in the cold. Total independence is selfishness. It is individualism, arrogance, superiority, a refusal to work together, and the break-down of the common good. Total independence will not solve our problems.
Total independence will lead to total isolation.
And let us be honest. Britain did not become Great in total isolation. Britain thrived by becoming the biggest Treaty-Signing power in the world. Britain thrived by signing more than 14,000 treaties in the modern age. We thrived by sharing our sovereignty, not by stockpiling it.
Our NATO membership compels us to deploy soldiers when our fellow members are attacked. The Paris Climate Accord is an agreement that demonstrates how we tackle global threats together, not alone. Even our membership of the WTO commits the UK to supra-national regulation and arbitration of its own.
Mr Speaker, Sovereignty is not an asset to be hoarded. It is a resource which only has value when it is spent.
The hard Brexiteers in this house say they want to Take Back Control. They say that we lost it because of the European Union. But in reality they are still mourning Suez. Britain’s last fling of the Colonial dice. Back then Anthony Eden failed to recognise that Britain was no longer capable of launching a solo imperial adventure. Let us not fall for the same hubris today.
When those on the other side of this debate say they want Empire 2.0. Let us ask, what does that mean? What was imperialism?What was colonialism? Let us not forget this today.
At its worst, the British Empire was exploitation and subjugation. Moral superiority that led to putting humans in shackles. The oppression of black and brown people because this country thought it knew best. Those countries once coloured pink on the globe were not won in negotiations, they were taken by force.
Today we need to build a new image of Britain. One that brings this country together after years of division. We have to use our imagination. Empire 2.0 is not it.
After the global embarrassment of Suez, Britain became the sick man of Europe. The EEC was set up in 1958, but Britain did not join until 1973.
In those years, GDP per head rose 95 per cent in France, Italy and West Germany. Britain only grew at half this rate. Our industry and economy had fallen behind.
Mr Speaker, Europe gave post-imperial Britain a chance to regain some wealth and dignity. In the 40 years since, our economy grew faster than France, Germany and Italy. We restored our position on the global stage. But it was not only our prosperity that increased.
Our allies in the US respected us for our seat at the top table of Europe.And the rest of the world saw us become a confident nation again.
A grown up country, prepared to give and take for the greater good.
The Brexiteer promise to Take Back Control in 2016 was nothing more than a deluded fantasy. A lie that divided friends and families. A lie that pandered to racism and xenophobia. And a lie that caused an extra six hundred and thirty eight Hate Crimes per month.
What does it say about the United Kingdom when the UN sends rapporteurs to warn us of increased racism in our country? What does it say about Britain when our politicians play on the fear of migrants, races and religions, to win votes? What did it say when Nigel Farage stood in front of a Nazi-inspired poster of refugees, with the caption “breaking point”?
The founder of the Labour Party, Keir Hardie, spoke of socialism’s “promise of freedom”. Its “larger hope for humanity”. And of “binding the races of the earth into one all-embracing brotherhood.”
To my good friends in the Party. Those who are still wavering, I ask honestly: can you really vote for this politics of division and hate?
Can you really vote to slash workers’ rights and protections?
Can you vote to give tax avoiders a sanctuary?
Can you vote to hand over more power to the clumsy hand of the market?
Mr Speaker, what I’m about to say is not fashionable. But our country’s story of renewal through Europe is a story of immigration. We grew as a nation because of free movement.
European migrants are not “citizens of nowhere” or “queue jumpers” as the Prime Minister would have us believe. Young, energetic, diverse and willing to pay taxes, EU citizens have given so much. They have done the jobs that our own would not do.
Around 3.8 million now live in Britain. Over their lifetimes, they pay in £78,000 more than they take out. But the contribution of European migrants has not only been financial. Our culture, our art, our music, and our food has been permanently improved.
Theresa May’s deal has emerged as a Frankenstein’s monster An ugly beast that no one voted for or wanted.
To appease hardliners, the transition period can at most be extended to 2022. This has eradicated our leverage – it is simply not enough time to negotiate a free trade deal. We are now on course for another cliff edge.
This deal does not Take Back Control, it gives it away. It surrenders our voting rights in the European Council, Commission and Parliament. For nothing in return. I cannot vote for any form of Brexit because every form of Brexit is worse for my constituents.
Mr Speaker, Brexit is a historic mistake.
It forgets the lessons of Britain’s past.
It forgets the value of immigrants.
It forgets that we cannot build a new Empire by force.
It forgets that in the modern world our nation will not flourish through isolation. But connection, cooperation and a new vision for the common good.
Brexit forgets why this continent came together, after two bloody wars.
Mr Speaker, this country is crying out for a second a chance. Seven hundred thousand marched on the streets of London. Millions more campaigned online and wrote to their MPs. They are all asking for one thing: an opportunity to right the wrong of 2016. Another shot at the imperfect but audacious European dream.
Or as Shakespeare put it in Richard the 2nd, from John of Gaunt:
“That England, that was wont to conquer others, hath made a shameful conquest of itself.”

That's one great speech, thanks NNK, he nailed it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Remember through all of this that in our system PARLIAMENT is sovereign. MPs, in particular through the select committee process, have the right and in fact, the DUTY to hold Govt ministers to account.

Cherry there was asking PRECISELY the sort of question that a Select Committee member should ask of a minister. The minister's attitude, body language and words showed that he had nothing but contempt for her. Which means he has contempt for the democratic process.

I've never seen this kind of brazen behaviour before. We've normalised ministers lying and we've normalised ministers contemptuously ignoring MPs holding them to account.

[BillyStubbsTears]

What they know Filo, is how to Marshall facts into an argument. How to sniff out bullshitters and liars. How to lead them into the trap of their own making.

It's just the application of logic. We need more people like that in public life and fewer of the glib, flash duckers and divers like RM and Johnson and Gove and Grayling and Javid.

[Axholme Lion]

What they know Filo, is how to Marshall facts into an argument. How to sniff out bullshitters and liars. How to lead them into the trap of their own making.

It's just the application of logic. We need more people like that in public life and fewer of the glib, flash duckers and divers like RM and Johnson and Gove and Grayling and Javid.

We need more people in parliament of the quality of Diane Abbot! Ha ha.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Excellent contribution as usual AL.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Talking of full-on, balls-up shameless lying.

Headline here: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6435545/amp/British-people-Mays-Brexit-deal-exclusive-poll-finds.html?__twitter_impression=true

Q7 here: https://t.co/jClBBlc4Ye?amp=1

How the f**k do these bas**rds sleep at night?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Then there's this in that Mail article.

"In a political version of rock, paper, scissors, when asked to choose between Mrs May’s deal and ‘no deal’, voters choose the latter.

Asked to pick between her deal and Remain they opt for Remain. When asked to choose between ‘no deal’ and Remain, Remain wins."

Imagine playing Rock Paper Scissors with that Mail journalist.
Rock blunt scissors.
Paper wraps rock.
Paper blunts scissors.

[SydneyRover]

Then there's this in that Mail article.

"In a political version of rock, paper, scissors, when asked to choose between Mrs May’s deal and ‘no deal’, voters choose the latter.

Asked to pick between her deal and Remain they opt for Remain. When asked to choose between ‘no deal’ and Remain, Remain wins."

Imagine playing Rock Paper Scissors with that Mail journalist.
Rock blunt scissors.
Paper wraps rock.
Paper blunts scissors.

The Daily Mail

QUESTIONABLE SOURCE

A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no sourcing to credible information, a complete lack of transparency and/or is fake news. Fake News is the deliberate attempt to publish hoaxes and/or disinformation for the purpose of profit or influence (Learn More). Sources listed in the Questionable Category may be very untrustworthy and should be fact checked on a per article basis. Please note sources on this list are not considered fake news unless specifically written in the reasoning section for that source. See all Questionable sources.

Reasoning: Right, Propaganda, Conspiracy, Some Fake News
Country: United Kingdom
World Press Freedom Rank: UK 40/180

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-mail/

[GazLaz]

Mrs May has said there is more chance of Brexit not going ahead than a no deal scenario. What happened to “no deal is better than a bad deal”? Why was “no Brexit is better than a bad deal” never touted by her?