Brexit deal

[BillyStubbsTears]

Apologies Wilts. Didn't see it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well what the f**k was THAT all about?

She IS insane isn't she? It's everyone else to blame. I'm right, I'm right, I'm right!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Actually, thinking again, that speech was sinister. She's gone full-on populist. No PM has EVER castigated Parliament like that. It is deeply, deeply dangerous. I genuinely DO think she's unhinged because no sane PM would ever do that.

[Glyn_Wigley]

She appears not to appreciate that if you treat Parliament like shit, shit is what you'll tend to get chucked back at you.

[BillyStubbsTears]

It's a deeply weird situation.

She is in a position where she is untouchable in Parliament, but utterly impotent. What you've just seen tonight was a PM venting her fury over that situation. But a British PM saying to the UK people that she is on their side and Parliament isn't? f**k me! Just stop and think about that.

[Filo]

It's a deeply weird situation.

She is in a position where she is untouchable in Parliament, but utterly impotent. What you've just seen tonight was a PM venting her fury over that situation. But a British PM saying to the UK people that she is on their side and Parliament isn't? f**k me! Just stop and think about that.

Wasn’t Hitler on the side of the German people?

[Glyn_Wigley]

It's a deeply weird situation.

She is in a position where she is untouchable in Parliament, but utterly impotent. What you've just seen tonight was a PM venting her fury over that situation. But a British PM saying to the UK people that she is on their side and Parliament isn't? f**k me! Just stop and think about that.

Wasn’t Hitler on the side of the German people?

And look what he did to the Reichstag.

[DonnyOsmond]

Does she have advisors feeding her crap saying everyone loves Brexit and thinks she's doing brilliant?

[BillyStubbsTears]

https://mobile.twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1108149985948983296

[SydneyRover]

Does she have advisors feeding her crap saying everyone loves Brexit and thinks she's doing brilliant?

I think her advisors are broomstick and axeholm

[Glyn_Wigley]

After cynically trying to blame Parliament for her complete mismanagement of Brexit, I'd actually love her to get MV3 voted on, because it wouldn't surprise me if the majority against went up again after that.

[MachoMadness]

f**k me. I'm still a Corbyn supporter (just about), but that is f**king dismal behaviour. I have no doubt the meeting was a sham to begin with, but to flounce out under any circumstances is shocking this close to D-day.

[Boomstick]

You know what? It's a sad statement on where discussion has got to when a smart bloke like Wing Co thinks that any of us are taking pleasure in seeing our country humiliate itself like this, and run the risk of stumbling into economic catastrophe.

Isn't it possible for intelligent, honest  people to disagree without being seen as simply wanting to win an argument?

Intelligent and honest people can disagree, but intelligent honest people give alternatives too.
You lot don't, just moan and criticise and don't come up with realistic alternatives.

This is a gem. I think I'm going to print it out and frame it.

I assume you've not bothered reading g the 70 pages on this thread or the 100 and odd on the other one where the pros and cons of everything from No Deal to Ref2 have been discussed to exhaustion? You see that as just moaning and criticising?

Here's the summary:
No Deal. Total freedom for us to do whatever we want trade wise and politically. But the consequence being that we have a long, slow hit to our economy over the long term, and an unknown immediate hard and sharp hit. No one suggests we can come out net positive for a generation or more. Crisis in NI. Absolutely not what anyone on the Leave side was proposing in 2016. Supported now only by people on the Far Right.

May's deal: Sorts out the Irish problem short term by tying us into the CU. Possibility of us leaving if a technical solution to NI is found in the future, but no-one knows what that is. Supported by centrist Tories. Opposed by everyone else. Still results in a long slow economic hit.

Norway+ deal: Keeps us in the SM and CU. We leave the political aspects of the EU  Minimises the economic hit. Proposed loudly and frequently by Farage in 2016. Now apparently it's a betrayal of Brexit. Possibly supported by Labour and a group of other MPs

Ref 2: Puts the question back to the people with a proper understanding of the issues,and multiple options. Difficult to implement given the number of politicians who have upped the ante by calling it a betrayal of democracy.

There you go. Take your pick. Discuss any of the above like an adult.

Or just complain that everyone who disagrees with you is a moaning traitor. Your choice.

Christ, I know what the options are. Its how you implement them that's the issue?

I'm waiting.....

[SydneyRover]

  I'm beginning to actually believe a lot of you take pleasure in the uk's predicament just so you can lambast the Tory's and May..Which I believe is Labours plan as well in the forlorn hope they can get a GE..
   personally I don't give 2 hoots what the EU want..I want what's best for the UK..

But it's not about what the EU wants is it, it's about what we want within the rules of the EU which the UK participated in bedding down, one cannot keep blaming the EU for decisions that our government is incapable of making. The government knows what the TOR are and therefore know they have to make decisions that fit within the scope but they cannot agree on their own side what to do can they?
I'd like to buy a loaf of bread please-certainly that'll be a pound. Sorry I only brought 50p, I'll be back in a minute. Hi you're back, that was quick, loaf of bread? yes please here's my fifty pence .......................

[Donnywolf]

The sanest thing to do imo (which doesnt count for much) and what I heard was "rumoured" to be what May was going to announce -

is get MP's to agree to pass Mays Deal on the condition that we then have a straight vote. The Vote would be whether the people endorsed leaving with that deal or Remaining in the EU

I said in an earlier post though #2054  - that this whole thing was from the start too divisive to be permanently sorted for decades imo

[Glyn_Wigley]

You know what? It's a sad statement on where discussion has got to when a smart bloke like Wing Co thinks that any of us are taking pleasure in seeing our country humiliate itself like this, and run the risk of stumbling into economic catastrophe.

Isn't it possible for intelligent, honest  people to disagree without being seen as simply wanting to win an argument?

Intelligent and honest people can disagree, but intelligent honest people give alternatives too.
You lot don't, just moan and criticise and don't come up with realistic alternatives.

This is a gem. I think I'm going to print it out and frame it.

I assume you've not bothered reading g the 70 pages on this thread or the 100 and odd on the other one where the pros and cons of everything from No Deal to Ref2 have been discussed to exhaustion? You see that as just moaning and criticising?

Here's the summary:
No Deal. Total freedom for us to do whatever we want trade wise and politically. But the consequence being that we have a long, slow hit to our economy over the long term, and an unknown immediate hard and sharp hit. No one suggests we can come out net positive for a generation or more. Crisis in NI. Absolutely not what anyone on the Leave side was proposing in 2016. Supported now only by people on the Far Right.

May's deal: Sorts out the Irish problem short term by tying us into the CU. Possibility of us leaving if a technical solution to NI is found in the future, but no-one knows what that is. Supported by centrist Tories. Opposed by everyone else. Still results in a long slow economic hit.

Norway+ deal: Keeps us in the SM and CU. We leave the political aspects of the EU  Minimises the economic hit. Proposed loudly and frequently by Farage in 2016. Now apparently it's a betrayal of Brexit. Possibly supported by Labour and a group of other MPs

Ref 2: Puts the question back to the people with a proper understanding of the issues,and multiple options. Difficult to implement given the number of politicians who have upped the ante by calling it a betrayal of democracy.

There you go. Take your pick. Discuss any of the above like an adult.

Or just complain that everyone who disagrees with you is a moaning traitor. Your choice.

Christ, I know what the options are. Its how you implement them that's the issue?

I'm waiting.....

You need to pick one first.

[Donnywolf]

Actually, thinking again, that speech was sinister. She's gone full-on populist. No PM has EVER castigated Parliament like that. It is deeply, deeply dangerous. I genuinely DO think she's unhinged because no sane PM would ever do that.

BST I am with you totally on the unhinged bit because time and again she seems to take a breath and then come out with exactly the same viewpoint / proposal / mantra. It is truly bizarre

I would think the advisors are having a free ride at the moment on this issue. They can suggest a different pitch and some probably are doing and I have visions of 3 or more of the saying "in my opinion we should do this ....." and May considering it for half a second before saying " well I think we should stick with my deal"

On the other side of the coin they can say " I think we should continue to try to get your deal approved by MP's" to which she would say yes I am glad someone can see its merit

Last night I was expecting (silly old fool me) something different - something to take us further down the line. I had hoped she would have talked to the Party Leaders but unfortunately JC walked out because Chuka was not a Party Leader. To me that too was a glorious chance missed

They could have proposed that there would be cross Party approval for her deal on condition that the deal would then be passed back to the people for their approval - but instead JC trotted off and the chance was gone . However those remaining might well have proposed that along with maybe another credible option / idea and like I said as with the advisors she might have thought for a split second and said "actually I think I will go with my Deal"

Then despite the Speaker ruling the deal cant be voted on again without subtantial change - and given that it had already the "fame" that it has been defeated by the heaviest ever Commons majority ever AND the 4th heaviest Commons majority ever she took a deep breath and we waited .....

..... eventually she presided over last nights statement which basically blamed the MP's for not voting for her deal. (Thats what I took from it and very little else). It was as though she said "my deal is the way forward - but you the MPs just cant see it". They can see it clearly but the issue is so fractious that Remainers are voting to kill off bits that faciliate "Leave" and vice versa

Then she trotted out the statement that the people are sick and tired and want us to make progress but that is a grey statement. Lots of them do but at least 48% of them did not want to Leave in the first place and they probably want to get on with it "yes" - but they want a peoples vote but Politicians can make any statement such as that mean what they want.

So I think she was and is unhinged but then I got to thinking - who is maddest ? Her for plodding on like a broken record or me for writing 10 pages of A4 that nobody will ever read suggesting SHE is MAD ? I probably dont need a Vote on that thanks

[DonnyOsmond]

f**k me. I'm still a Corbyn supporter (just about), but that is f**king dismal behaviour. I have no doubt the meeting was a sham to begin with, but to flounce out under any circumstances is shocking this close to D-day.

After him saying you need to speak to people you disagree with i.e. IRA, Hezbollah.

[DonnyOsmond]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584

For anyone interested x

[SydneyRover]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584

For anyone interested x

Done and shared, thanks for the link Donny, it's amazing to watch how fast the number is rising.

[Donnywolf]

If it got to 17.5 Million May would just say "we must deliver on the Referendum Result - when in the largest Democratic event we ever held the people voted to leave"

[DonnyOsmond]

Apparently it only started last night. Crazy how quick it's grown.

[Donnywolf]

f**k me. I'm still a Corbyn supporter (just about), but that is f**king dismal behaviour. I have no doubt the meeting was a sham to begin with, but to flounce out under any circumstances is shocking this close to D-day.

After him saying you need to speak to people you disagree with i.e. IRA, Hezbollah.

Yes - I am no Fan of May but Corbyn is not in my Top 150 best politicains ever either

He seems to be doing within his Party what May is doing in Parliament in that the Labour Party wants to support a Peoples Vote (rightly or wrongly) and he as Leader seems to be pushing it away at every opportunity. He had yet another clear opportunity to (maybe) make progress  last night but also had a clear "get out of jail card" when Chuka Umunna appeared at the Meeting for Party Leaders

So JC played the Umunna is not a Party Leader card and instead of them getting together and demanding progress by laying down viable alternatives and then publishing them. Simplistic ? YES - but nobody is coming out of this with any credit to their name

Never known anything like it EVER

[Not Now Kato]

BST I am with you totally on the unhinged bit because time and again she seems to take a breath and then come out with exactly the same viewpoint / proposal / mantra. It is truly bizarre

It's amazing how much of this applies to her....
 
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/09/180926110841.htm
 

* Egoism: an excessive preoccupation with one's own advantage at the expense of others and the community

* Machiavellianism: a manipulative, callous attitude and a belief that the ends justify the means

* Moral disengagement: cognitive processing style that allow behaving unethically without feeling distress

* Narcissism: excessive self-absorption, a sense of superiority, and an extreme need for attention from others

* Psychological entitlement: a recurring belief that one is better than others and deserves better treatment

* Psychopathy: lack of empathy and self-control, combined with impulsive behaviour

* Sadism: a desire to inflict mental or physical harm on others for one's own pleasure or to benefit oneself

* Self-interest: a desire to further and highlight one's own social and financial status

* Spitefulness: destructiveness and willingness to cause harm to others, even if one harms oneself in the process

The garish clothes, shoes, ridiculous dancing, the snarling, the lack of empathy etc etc....
 

[Donnywolf]

Apparently it only started last night. Crazy how quick it's grown.

Yes but unfortunately I have signed countless of them and all have come to nothing. The March on Saturday will probably attract at least the same number of actual bodies (round 300 000 maybe more) and they will be collectively swept under the carpet - and dismissed unfortunately as "Remoaners" or some other disparaging comment - and carrying no weight because 17.4 Million people voted to Leave the EU and we (May would say) must deliver on the Will of the British People

Its a shame because it has gone on longer than a Sheff U lose appeal thread on here

[Donnywolf]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584

For anyone interested x

Done and shared, thanks for the link Donny, it's amazing to watch how fast the number is rising.

Already 620.000 signed up for this in 12 hours but my Reply #2120 above would still apply I am guessing

[Hounslowrover]

I may no fan of Corbyn, but he had a one on one with May apparently before he walked out, according to Barry Gardner on Radio 4 this morning, a fact not disputed by John Humphries.  He walked out because he was told it was a meeting of party leaders, Umana's group is not a political party.  However it made no difference as May did not listen yet again to anyone and remains stubborn over her deal.
Both parties need new leaders.

[Axholme Lion]

I want a no deal WTO departure from the EU, but I have to say my respect for TM has grown the longer this has gone on, because she has stuck to her guns as much as she has been allowed to, and despite being vilified by all and sundry has shown great determination and character to see this matter to an end. Maybe in years to come history will give her greater regard and respect than what she has at this moment in time.

[Boomstick]

You know what? It's a sad statement on where discussion has got to when a smart bloke like Wing Co thinks that any of us are taking pleasure in seeing our country humiliate itself like this, and run the risk of stumbling into economic catastrophe.

Isn't it possible for intelligent, honest  people to disagree without being seen as simply wanting to win an argument?

Intelligent and honest people can disagree, but intelligent honest people give alternatives too.
You lot don't, just moan and criticise and don't come up with realistic alternatives.

This is a gem. I think I'm going to print it out and frame it.

I assume you've not bothered reading g the 70 pages on this thread or the 100 and odd on the other one where the pros and cons of everything from No Deal to Ref2 have been discussed to exhaustion? You see that as just moaning and criticising?

Here's the summary:
No Deal. Total freedom for us to do whatever we want trade wise and politically. But the consequence being that we have a long, slow hit to our economy over the long term, and an unknown immediate hard and sharp hit. No one suggests we can come out net positive for a generation or more. Crisis in NI. Absolutely not what anyone on the Leave side was proposing in 2016. Supported now only by people on the Far Right.

May's deal: Sorts out the Irish problem short term by tying us into the CU. Possibility of us leaving if a technical solution to NI is found in the future, but no-one knows what that is. Supported by centrist Tories. Opposed by everyone else. Still results in a long slow economic hit.

Norway+ deal: Keeps us in the SM and CU. We leave the political aspects of the EU  Minimises the economic hit. Proposed loudly and frequently by Farage in 2016. Now apparently it's a betrayal of Brexit. Possibly supported by Labour and a group of other MPs

Ref 2: Puts the question back to the people with a proper understanding of the issues,and multiple options. Difficult to implement given the number of politicians who have upped the ante by calling it a betrayal of democracy.

There you go. Take your pick. Discuss any of the above like an adult.

Or just complain that everyone who disagrees with you is a moaning traitor. Your choice.

Christ, I know what the options are. Its how you implement them that's the issue?

I'm waiting.....

You need to pick one first.

🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

That's part of implementing!

OK, ill make it easier for you.

Your the pm, your preferred choice is.....
Explain you you get it through parliament in your own words.

Not surprised BST has suddenly gone quiet when he can't answer a question.

[SydneyRover]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584

For anyone interested x

Done and shared, thanks for the link Donny, it's amazing to watch how fast the number is rising.

Already 620.000 signed up for this in 12 hours but my Reply #2120 above would still apply I am guessing

Looks like the site has overloaded and crashed, maybe a temporary glitch.