Brexit deal

[SydneyRover]

TRB

A tad melodramatic.

What the vote tonight has done, is finally put May in a box and allowed Parliament to take over from a catastrophically bad PM.

What this is likely to lead to is anyone's guess, but if it's put down the hijacking of Brexit by the ERG then it is a fine day for democracy.

''No government could give a blank cheque to commit to an outcome without knowing what it is. So I cannot commit the government to delivering the outcome of any votes held by this house. But I do commit to engaging constructively with this process,” she said.

A strange coming from a party where the human condom put a vote to the country where no one had a clue what the question was.

[DonnyOsmond]

Mann and Flint voted against.

[The Red Baron]

The Oliver Left-wing amendment has been carried. Brexit is now over. A dreadful day for democracy. Goodnight and goodbye.

What alternative would you have wanted? A third meaningful vote? This hopefully shows what would get through which IMO will be Norway+.

I'd be happy with Norway-plus or Common Market 2.0. But that isn't what we negotiated.

Anyway, last night wasn't about other options. It was about Remain-supporting MPs thwarting the result of a public vote.

[The Red Baron]

TRB

A tad melodramatic.

What the vote tonight has done, is finally put May in a box and allowed Parliament to take over from a catastrophically bad PM.

What this is likely to lead to is anyone's guess, but if it's put down the hijacking of Brexit by the ERG then it is a fine day for democracy.

Probably a bit melodramatic, yes, but I think this means Brexit is very unlikely to happen.

As for the ERG, they deserve all they get. They have thrown away the chance of us leaving the EU.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The Oliver Left-wing amendment has been carried. Brexit is now over. A dreadful day for democracy. Goodnight and goodbye.

What alternative would you have wanted? A third meaningful vote? This hopefully shows what would get through which IMO will be Norway+.

I'd be happy with Norway-plus or Common Market 2.0. But that isn't what we negotiated.

Anyway, last night wasn't about other options. It was about Remain-supporting MPs thwarting the result of a public vote.

It was nothing of the sort.

It was Parliament final losing patience with the most dysfunctional Govt in history and taking control of the process.

[The Red Baron]

I accept that the Government is dysfunctional, but the current HoC is even more so. Tomorrow night we'll be no further forward, because I very much doubt any option will command a majority.

The one thing that probably would would be to ignore the result of the Referendum, but I don't think even this shower would have the brass neck to vote for that.

[The Red Baron]

I think Norway-plus or Common Market 2.0 is the way forward. A lot of people think they are the same thing, but my view of Norway-plus would be Norway plus Customs Union - hence solving the Irish Border.

I've been out this morning and heard a Tory backbencher trying to explain CM 2.0. The big stumbling block is that we don't stay in a Customs Union and have some kind of "arrangements" with the EU. It sounds like the same sort of thing that the ERG go on about, though obviously without SM membership. The woman really struggled to deal with the obvious objections about the Irish Border. So I suspect it will not fly, and even if Parliament goes for CM 2.0. The EU won't buy it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

I also don't expect an immediate majority for any one thing. But that's when intense discussions and compromises start. That's how grown up systems work.

I'm really struggling to see why people think Parliament is dysfunctional. The 2017 GE produced a Commons that has no majority. That's not the fault of Parliament. WE voted for that.

And then we've had a PM utterly oblivious to that fact, acting as though she had the backing of the Commons, sidelining and ignoring it and making no attempt whatsoever to find consensus. She's treated Brexit as an internal Tory party admin issue. That's not the fault of Parliament.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I think Norway-plus or Common Market 2.0 is the way forward. A lot of people think they are the same thing, but my view of Norway-plus would be Norway plus Customs Union - hence solving the Irish Border.

I've been out this morning and heard a Tory backbencher trying to explain CM 2.0. The big stumbling block is that we don't stay in a Customs Union and have some kind of "arrangements" with the EU. It sounds like the same sort of thing that the ERG go on about, though obviously without SM membership. The woman really struggled to deal with the obvious objections about the Irish Border. So I suspect it will not fly, and even if Parliament goes for CM 2.0. The EU won't buy it.

It's deeply depressing that a number of MPs are still in denial about this fact.

It's really, really simple.

Absent a magic technological solution to the Irish border, we either stay in the CU, or we leave with No Deal. There's no grey area. There's no excuse for anyone who thinks about it to be in any way confused.

[The Red Baron]

You and I can see it, but they can't. Which is why I call this HOC dysfunctional.

[BillyStubbsTears]

But it's only a few who can't see that. THEY are dysfunctional individuals. Parliament as a whole is not.

[The Red Baron]

A leading member of the ERG seems to woken up and smelt the coffee. I think he's missed the boat personally.

https://www.conservativehome.com/highlights/2019/03/the-moggcast-deal-or-no-brexit-becomes-the-choice-eventually-mays-deal-is-better-than-not-leaving-at-all.html

[BillyStubbsTears]

Actually, think what the context is here.

The mainstream Tory position on Brexiters has been that we have to leave the CU (taking back control...proud nation making its own trade deals...all that b*llocks). But as you and I both know (and the MPs know) that means No Deal. Which is a Very Bad Thing.

So a few MPs are now touting CM2.0 with us outside the CU as some sort of triangulation.

But triangulation doesn't work here. We are either in the CU or we have no deal. Simple as that. Binary.

But the MPs know that.

Again, what they are doing is positioning themselves for the inevitable final outcome, which is that we stay in the CU with or without Ref2.

It's just like the ERG saying they want No Deal. They KNOW that would be a catastrophe for the country. But it's about positioning for when this is finalised with us staying inside the CU.

You want a depressing thought?

After all this shit, this is never going to end. The Tory party Euro-psychosis is not going to be healed. It's only been made worse. And the Tory MPs are already drawing up their positions for the next generation of arguments over Europe.

Because, as I keep saying, this ain't really about Europe. It's about who rules the Tory party. The entire country is being held hostage by an internal party power struggle. 

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

NO!
Rees-Mogg has won precisely what he wants!

No Deal isn't going to happen. If it did, and his prints were on it, the Tory Right would have been dead, because they would have been responsible for choosing to tip us into economic carnage. He never wanted that because he's not stupid.

So he's in a perfect position. He can still say to his party members, "You wanted No Deal and so did I. You know I'm in your side." And other people have insulated him from that actually happening.

Now he can go even further by playing the conciliator who, after the nasty, undemocratic, treasonous MPs have taken away the ND Will of The People, can say that he's prepared to try to get the second best position through.

It is SO obvious! It's all about positioning and posturing to the Tory party membership.

[The Red Baron]

I actually think the Tory Party will be pretty irrelevant after this is over. Who would want to vote them into power? And their membership is in terminal decline. I agree that they will continue to fight over Europe and whatever deal that we end up with will not please a significant number of Tories.

Hopefully the next GE produces a coalition that goes for PR and these parties will break up.

[BillyStubbsTears]

There's less than zero chance that a Corbyn-led Govt would usher in PR, because it would mean that there would be no chance of leading us to a Socialist Utopia.

[The Red Baron]

There's less than zero chance that a Corbyn-led Govt would usher in PR, because it would mean that there would be no chance of leading us to a Socialist Utopia.

He might have to offer it in order to secure a Coalition though.

[BillyStubbsTears]

But the LDs will only get a slack handful of votes. And after their experience last time, they'll be in no position to call the shots. No other party will be demanding PR.

I'm not happy about that. But it seems to me to be the fact if the matter.

[The Red Baron]

Here we go...

https://mobile.twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1110494136392712192?p=v

[Axholme Lion]

I actually think the Tory Party will be pretty irrelevant after this is over. Who would want to vote them into power? And their membership is in terminal decline. I agree that they will continue to fight over Europe and whatever deal that we end up with will not please a significant number of Tories.

Hopefully the next GE produces a coalition that goes for PR and these parties will break up.

The current parties are irrelevant to the lives of most Britons, they all serve their own internal agendas.

[The Red Baron]

It seems possible that May will set out a timetable for her departure tomorrow. I don't think it will make much difference to Brexit though.

[foxbat]

for example purposes

Sean Matthews #FBPE‏ @microbabble · Mar 24 


Voted Leave in 2016 and ever since seen the UK torn apart with hatred. Yesterday, I watched the news as 1,000,000 marched for solidarity with those I voted to abandon. THAT is the country I want back and what makes me proud of being British AND European #RemainerNow #PeoplesVote

 

[Axholme Lion]

for example purposes

Sean Matthews #FBPE‏ @microbabble · Mar 24 


Voted Leave in 2016 and ever since seen the UK torn apart with hatred. Yesterday, I watched the news as 1,000,000 marched for solidarity with those I voted to abandon. THAT is the country I want back and what makes me proud of being British AND European #RemainerNow #PeoplesVote

 

What hatred? From my point of view all I have is a mixture of anger and disappointment. I don't hate remainers. I may totally disagree with them, but I don't hate them ( unless they support Leeds ).

[Glyn_Wigley]

I remember someone wanting those they called 'traitors' to be beheaded. But no doubt that was just anger and disappointment.

[Axholme Lion]

I remember someone wanting those they called 'traitors' to be beheaded. But no doubt that was just anger and disappointment.

FFS. I was on here having a wind up, surely you can see that? This is the problem with Britain today, everyone has had a humour bypass! I wouldn't take most people seriously writing waffle on a footie forum just to pass an hour or two on a quiet afternoon.

[BillyStubbsTears]

AL

Have a read.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/news/100967/tory-mp-receives-death-threat-after-voting
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/760339/MP-death-threats-brexit-harriet-harmen-jo-cox-warnings
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/8160403/mp-death-threats-tory-rebellion/
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/theresa-mays-speech-prompted-death-16010796
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41237836
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/30/mps-receive-identical-death-threats-image-severed-head-emailed
https://www.itv.com/news/2019-03-04/itv-investigation-reveals-extent-of-online-abuse-and-death-threats-aimed-at-mps-in-exposure-brexit-online-uncovered/
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/scotland-yard-police-probe-after-four-mps-receive-brexit-death-threat-letters-a3764901.html

Me, I don't think that's normal or acceptable. Do you?

Bearing in mind that one MP WAS murdered in the 2016 Campaign, maybe we should all just stop and reflect on the atmosphere that the Brexit experience has resulted in.

[foxbat]

Not pointing at anyone directly , certainly not at anyone on the Forum

Just showing what 'the People' are saying now  eg

Kate Wilton #JustMakeItStop #PeoplesVote  🇬🇧 🇪🇺‏ @KateWilton1 · 1h1 hour ago

A lot can happen in 3 years since the referendum. There have been pregnancies, births, deaths, marriages, divorces. Children have become adults. People have moved house, moved abroad, changed jobs, and changed political allegiances. People have changed their minds about Brexit.

[albie]

There's less than zero chance that a Corbyn-led Govt would usher in PR, because it would mean that there would be no chance of leading us to a Socialist Utopia.

BST,

Labour cannot form a government with a majority without reviving in Scotland.
That is not going to happen, so Labour must aim to be the largest single party, which is difficult but do-able.

In that event, Labour need a coalition partner, ans the SNP is the prime candidate.

The price of that will be Labour agreeing an Independence referendum, and probably departing from the support of Unionism as in the days of Broon.

If Labour see that they cannot form a viable government under the current arrangements, then the incentive to look at PR is there.

The historic parliamentary system is unfit for the modern era. If people cannot see that we will never move on.

[The Red Baron]

There's less than zero chance that a Corbyn-led Govt would usher in PR, because it would mean that there would be no chance of leading us to a Socialist Utopia.

BST,

Labour cannot form a government with a majority without reviving in Scotland.
That is not going to happen, so Labour must aim to be the largest single party, which is difficult but do-able.

In that event, Labour need a coalition partner, ans the SNP is the prime candidate.

The price of that will be Labour agreeing an Independence referendum, and probably departing from the support of Unionism as in the days of Broon.

That really would hammer the final nail into Labour's coffin. Socialists who wanted independence might as well vote SNP. Unionists would flock to Ruth Davidson's lot.

[Axholme Lion]

AL

Have a read.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/news/100967/tory-mp-receives-death-threat-after-voting
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/760339/MP-death-threats-brexit-harriet-harmen-jo-cox-warnings
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/8160403/mp-death-threats-tory-rebellion/
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/theresa-mays-speech-prompted-death-16010796
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41237836
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/30/mps-receive-identical-death-threats-image-severed-head-emailed
https://www.itv.com/news/2019-03-04/itv-investigation-reveals-extent-of-online-abuse-and-death-threats-aimed-at-mps-in-exposure-brexit-online-uncovered/
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/scotland-yard-police-probe-after-four-mps-receive-brexit-death-threat-letters-a3764901.html

Me, I don't think that's normal or acceptable. Do you?

Bearing in mind that one MP WAS murdered in the 2016 Campaign, maybe we should all just stop and reflect on the atmosphere that the Brexit experience has resulted in.

I can honestly say none of that was me.
 People type all sorts of crap online from both sides, doesn't make it right. Best to ignore it and not give the oxygen of publicity.
I think hanging the Jo Cox thing on Brexit is a bit low.