Brexit deal

[Boomstick]

BS.
Don't flatter yourself that you've got the first idea what I think or want. You haven't got the first idea.

Discuss this like a grown up or toddle off and leave it to grown ups to discuss.

Right, let's meet up then and discuss this face to face like grown ups.

Why can't grown ups discuss it on a forum?

Oh, is that how corbyn and may will cunduct their discussions?
Thought it may be beneficial, as somehow I think bst wouldn't be so preachy, condescending and I'm sure he'd drop his bullying tactics if he wasn't hid behind his keyboard.
The irony being, that's how he thinks grown ups discuss issues.

[SydneyRover]

BS.
Don't flatter yourself that you've got the first idea what I think or want. You haven't got the first idea.

Discuss this like a grown up or toddle off and leave it to grown ups to discuss.

Right, let's meet up then and discuss this face to face like grown ups.

Why can't grown ups discuss it on a forum?

Oh, is that how corbyn and may will cunduct their discussions?
Thought it may be beneficial, as somehow I think bst wouldn't be so preachy, condescending and I'm sure he'd drop his bullying tactics if he wasn't hid behind his keyboard.
The irony being, that's how he thinks grown ups discuss issues.

The best way to stand up to BST, not that you have to of course, is to read up on your position what you believe is best for yourself and your country from reputable different sources so you can find holes in his arguments, not easy but that's how debates are won-or not.

[MachoMadness]

Ahh, veiled threats from a Brexiteer. What a shocker.

[Bentley Bullet]

And here's me thinking debates are won by describing anyone who disagrees with you as 'not grown up'.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BS.
You have an obsession with meeting up. Do you think the points I'm
making would be any less valid or yours any more valid face to face?

BB. No. To disagree with someone you need to have both sides engaged with the discussion. I'd never suggest that anyone who engages in a discussion sensibly isn't grown up.

What got my goat yesterday was BS making a totally unsubstantiated claim, misunderstanding evidence that strongly indicated that his claim was wrong, then, when that misunderstanding was patiently corrected, responding with a rant about me wanting to get rid of the Queen. You reckon that is mature discussion?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

PS. It's not about "winning" debates by the way. It's about establishing clarity in facts and concepts so that the choices we make are well-founded.

I've no problem whatsoever with anyone coming to a conclusion that's different from mine. What tweaks my nose is when folk try to justify that by things that aren't valid. And yeah, I do OTT when I see that happening, because it's years of that approach that have tipped us into this heap of shite.

[Bentley Bullet]

BST. What is valid is that the country had a vote and voted to leave. What tweaks some folk's noses is when people try to justify that the vote isn't valid. What sort of heap of shite do you think that will leave our country in if they get their way and invalidate the vote?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

Aye. I know. And we've had three years since of trying to a) interpret what that meant and b) implement it in a way that doesn't cripple our economy or throw a hand grenade into Northern Ireland.

It's hard isn't it? Which is why I get a little bit miffed when folk say "just get on with it and leave" whilst refusing to engage with those consequences that were never properly discussed in 2016.

So yeah, I agree that there'd be a lot of people pissed off if that decision was revisited.

Equally, there'll be a lot of people pissed off if the 2016 decision IS implemented and the predictions that have been steadfastly ignored by Leavers come to pass.

It's a right f**king mess isn't it?

[Axholme Lion]

BST. What is valid is that the country had a vote and voted to leave. What tweaks some folk's noses is when people try to justify that the vote isn't valid. What sort of heap of shite do you think that will leave our country in if they get their way and invalidate the vote?

Democracy is dieing in the UK.
We clearly voted to leave. The ballot paper mentioned nothing about begging for a deal.
We should have activated article 50 the day after the referendum and told the EU we were leaving on WTO terms, BUT if THEY wanted a deal with us to come and talk it over. Who in their right mind goes into a negotiation saying we don't want to leave without a deal, thereby throwing your strongest bargaining chip in the bin?
We should leave now. When we make a success of life outside the EU others will follow our brave lead. The GREAT in Great Britain didn't come about from fannying around makes deals with the likes of Luxembourg, it came from doing our business all throughout the world.

[Bentley Bullet]

BB

Aye. I know. And we've had three years since of trying to a) interpret what that meant and b) implement it in a way that doesn't cripple our economy or throw a hand grenade into Northern Ireland.

It's hard isn't it? Which is why I get a little bit miffed when folk say "just get on with it and leave" whilst refusing to engage with those consequences that were never properly discussed in 2016.

So yeah, I agree that there'd be a lot of people pissed off if that decision was revisited.

Equally, there'll be a lot of people pissed off if the 2016 decision IS implemented and the predictions that have been steadfastly ignored by Leavers come to pass.

It's a right f**king mess isn't it?

It is mate, and there probably should never have been a vote. People's views of the consequences differ though.

[Copps is Magic]

BST. What is valid is that the country had a vote and voted to leave. What tweaks some folk's noses is when people try to justify that the vote isn't valid. What sort of heap of shite do you think that will leave our country in if they get their way and invalidate the vote?

Democracy is dieing in the UK.
We clearly voted to leave. The ballot paper mentioned nothing about begging for a deal.
We should have activated article 50 the day after the referendum and told the EU we were leaving on WTO terms, BUT if THEY wanted a deal with us to come and talk it over. Who in their right mind goes into a negotiation saying we don't want to leave without a deal, thereby throwing your strongest bargaining chip in the bin?
We should leave now. When we make a success of life outside the EU others will follow our brave lead. The GREAT in Great Britain didn't come about from fannying around makes deals with the likes of Luxembourg, it came from doing our business all throughout the world.

You voted to leave the European Union and that's all you did. You didn't vote for a platform to negotiate an independent trade deal on WTO rules.
A customs union with the EU is leaving the EU and is a negotiated trade deal with it, and is under WTO rules. It fulfills completely the referendum vote, and doesn't ignore it. So don't present 'no deal' as the only way to leave and what you voted for, because both are demonstrably false.
Given in the real world approximately 50% of all our current trade is with the EU it really makes a lot of sense to get a grown-up deal with them.

All this 'I ticked a box 3 years ago' malarkey breaks down very quickly when you start talking about real peoples lifes and livelihoods.

[Glyn_Wigley]

BST. What is valid is that the country had a vote and voted to leave. What tweaks some folk's noses is when people try to justify that the vote isn't valid. What sort of heap of shite do you think that will leave our country in if they get their way and invalidate the vote?

Democracy is dieing in the UK.
We clearly voted to leave. The ballot paper mentioned nothing about begging for a deal.
We should have activated article 50 the day after the referendum and told the EU we were leaving on WTO terms, BUT if THEY wanted a deal with us to come and talk it over. Who in their right mind goes into a negotiation saying we don't want to leave without a deal, thereby throwing your strongest bargaining chip in the bin?
We should leave now. When we make a success of life outside the EU others will follow our brave lead. The GREAT in Great Britain didn't come about from fannying around makes deals with the likes of Luxembourg, it came from doing our business all throughout the world.

I don't remember the ballot paper saying anything about that either!

[Glyn_Wigley]

BST. What is valid is that the country had a vote and voted to leave. What tweaks some folk's noses is when people try to justify that the vote isn't valid. What sort of heap of shite do you think that will leave our country in if they get their way and invalidate the vote?

Democracy is dieing in the UK.
We clearly voted to leave. The ballot paper mentioned nothing about begging for a deal.
We should have activated article 50 the day after the referendum and told the EU we were leaving on WTO terms, BUT if THEY wanted a deal with us to come and talk it over. Who in their right mind goes into a negotiation saying we don't want to leave without a deal, thereby throwing your strongest bargaining chip in the bin?
We should leave now. When we make a success of life outside the EU others will follow our brave lead. The GREAT in Great Britain didn't come about from fannying around makes deals with the likes of Luxembourg, it came from doing our business all throughout the world.

No it didn't.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB
Plus (and I know I keep going on about this, but it IS critical) whichever form of Leave we end up with, a majority of the country will be f**ked off. And that fact invalidates any argument that the 2016 result was a democratic mandate.

As I keep saying, there was no one thing called Leave. So to claim that because 52% voted for Leave, any form of Leave is to be accepted is a logical nonsense.

You don't have to take my word. May's deal would be Leaving, but Farage himself has said he'd prefer us to Remain than leave that way.

[BillyStubbsTears]

AL

Thing is, May DID try that approach.

Remember? 2 years ago. No Deal is better than a bad deal?

Thing is, it isn't. No Deal would be bad for the EU but a disaster for us. And for the EU, No Deal is less bad than a deal that undermined the integrity of the EU.

So that threat was tried but it didn't work. Because it wasn't remotely realistic.

And that is the art of negotiating. You don't negotiate from a position that isn't credible. Because the other side will just stonewall you.

[RedJ]

BST. What is valid is that the country had a vote and voted to leave. What tweaks some folk's noses is when people try to justify that the vote isn't valid. What sort of heap of shite do you think that will leave our country in if they get their way and invalidate the vote?

Democracy is dieing in the UK.
We clearly voted to leave. The ballot paper mentioned nothing about begging for a deal.
We should have activated article 50 the day after the referendum and told the EU we were leaving on WTO terms, BUT if THEY wanted a deal with us to come and talk it over. Who in their right mind goes into a negotiation saying we don't want to leave without a deal, thereby throwing your strongest bargaining chip in the bin?
We should leave now. When we make a success of life outside the EU others will follow our brave lead. The GREAT in Great Britain didn't come about from fannying around makes deals with the likes of Luxembourg, it came from doing our business all throughout the world.

What about the Greater in Greater Manchester?

[Axholme Lion]

AL

Thing is, May DID try that approach.

Remember? 2 years ago. No Deal is better than a bad deal?

Thing is, it isn't. No Deal would be bad for the EU but a disaster for us. And for the EU, No Deal is less bad than a deal that undermined the integrity of the EU.

So that threat was tried but it didn't work. Because it wasn't remotely realistic.

And that is the art of negotiating. You don't negotiate from a position that isn't credible. Because the other side will just stonewall you.

It was only 'not credible' because TM didn't have the bottle to front up to the EU and walk away if necessary. We could have been well on the way to a new era but for the shambolic performance of the Government and the stop Brexit at all costs mindset of most MPs. I'm convinced it has been dragged on so long in the hope that Brexit fatigue will wear people down and in the end they will just give up.

[Axholme Lion]

BST. What is valid is that the country had a vote and voted to leave. What tweaks some folk's noses is when people try to justify that the vote isn't valid. What sort of heap of shite do you think that will leave our country in if they get their way and invalidate the vote?

Democracy is dieing in the UK.
We clearly voted to leave. The ballot paper mentioned nothing about begging for a deal.
We should have activated article 50 the day after the referendum and told the EU we were leaving on WTO terms, BUT if THEY wanted a deal with us to come and talk it over. Who in their right mind goes into a negotiation saying we don't want to leave without a deal, thereby throwing your strongest bargaining chip in the bin?
We should leave now. When we make a success of life outside the EU others will follow our brave lead. The GREAT in Great Britain didn't come about from fannying around makes deals with the likes of Luxembourg, it came from doing our business all throughout the world.

What about the Greater in Greater Manchester?

What's great about Manchester? 

[Bentley Bullet]

BST. I reckon the majority of the country end up f**ked off after every vote, through elected governments not carrying out promises.

In fear of repeating myself, I saw only two option on the voting slip. Leave and Remain. I understood it to mean we would either remain or leave immediately and perhaps discuss any future deals with the EU after we had left.

I'm 100% sure I wasn't the only one to think that.

[Boomstick]

BST. I reckon the majority of the country end up f**ked off after every vote, through elected governments not carrying out promises.

In fear of repeating myself, I saw only two option on the voting slip. Leave and Remain. I understood it to mean we would either remain or leave immediately and perhaps discuss any future deals with the EU after we had left.

I'm 100% sure I wasn't the only one to think that.

100 percent Definately not the only person to think it, and it should have happened that way.
It's only certain MPs, and parts of the media that are trying to stop brexit that has made this whole process alot harder than it should be.

We should be out now, striking deals with the globe and not looking back.
The only way out is a no deal, but unfortunately it won't happen.

[Boomstick]

BS.
You have an obsession with meeting up. Do you think the points I'm
making would be any less valid or yours any more valid face to face?

BB. No. To disagree with someone you need to have both sides engaged with the discussion. I'd never suggest that anyone who engages in a discussion sensibly isn't grown up.

What got my goat yesterday was BS making a totally unsubstantiated claim, misunderstanding evidence that strongly indicated that his claim was wrong, then, when that misunderstanding was patiently corrected, responding with a rant about me wanting to get rid of the Queen. You reckon that is mature discussion?

No, they couldn't be less valid.
It's your execution of said points that would be alot different, without the safety blanket of your keyboard.

[Copps is Magic]

BST. I reckon the majority of the country end up f**ked off after every vote, through elected governments not carrying out promises.

In fear of repeating myself, I saw only two option on the voting slip. Leave and Remain. I understood it to mean we would either remain or leave immediately and perhaps discuss any future deals with the EU after we had left.

I'm 100% sure I wasn't the only one to think that.

100 percent Definately not the only person to think it, and it should have happened that way.
It's only certain MPs, and parts of the media that are trying to stop brexit that has made this whole process alot harder than it should be.

We should be out now, striking deals with the globe and not looking back.
The only way out is a no deal, but unfortunately it won't happen.

Right, let's take that proposition forward. We just 'leave' now. The very next day - how do you get goods, people, and money across the border to the EU?

[Copps is Magic]

BST. I reckon the majority of the country end up f**ked off after every vote, through elected governments not carrying out promises.

In fear of repeating myself, I saw only two option on the voting slip. Leave and Remain. I understood it to mean we would either remain or leave immediately and perhaps discuss any future deals with the EU after we had left.

I'm 100% sure I wasn't the only one to think that.

Then you admit a lot of people were misled/misinformed during the referendum campaign?

[Axholme Lion]

BST. I reckon the majority of the country end up f**ked off after every vote, through elected governments not carrying out promises.

In fear of repeating myself, I saw only two option on the voting slip. Leave and Remain. I understood it to mean we would either remain or leave immediately and perhaps discuss any future deals with the EU after we had left.

I'm 100% sure I wasn't the only one to think that.

100 percent Definately not the only person to think it, and it should have happened that way.
It's only certain MPs, and parts of the media that are trying to stop brexit that has made this whole process alot harder than it should be.

We should be out now, striking deals with the globe and not looking back.
The only way out is a no deal, but unfortunately it won't happen.

That's how I see it.

[Axholme Lion]

BST. I reckon the majority of the country end up f**ked off after every vote, through elected governments not carrying out promises.

In fear of repeating myself, I saw only two option on the voting slip. Leave and Remain. I understood it to mean we would either remain or leave immediately and perhaps discuss any future deals with the EU after we had left.

I'm 100% sure I wasn't the only one to think that.

100 percent Definately not the only person to think it, and it should have happened that way.
It's only certain MPs, and parts of the media that are trying to stop brexit that has made this whole process alot harder than it should be.

We should be out now, striking deals with the globe and not looking back.
The only way out is a no deal, but unfortunately it won't happen.

Right, let's take that proposition forward. We just 'leave' now. The very next day - how do you get goods, people, and money across the border to the EU?

The EU are the ones putting up barriers not us.

[Copps is Magic]

Well, all I can say is I hope one day you reflect on that statement. We currently essentially have a free trade agreement without any barriers with the EU.

[Dutch Uncle]

BST. I reckon the majority of the country end up f**ked off after every vote, through elected governments not carrying out promises.

In fear of repeating myself, I saw only two option on the voting slip. Leave and Remain. I understood it to mean we would either remain or leave immediately and perhaps discuss any future deals with the EU after we had left.

I'm 100% sure I wasn't the only one to think that.

100 percent Definately not the only person to think it, and it should have happened that way.
It's only certain MPs, and parts of the media that are trying to stop brexit that has made this whole process alot harder than it should be.

We should be out now, striking deals with the globe and not looking back.
The only way out is a no deal, but unfortunately it won't happen.

Right, let's take that proposition forward. We just 'leave' now. The very next day - how do you get goods, people, and money across the border to the EU?

The EU are the ones putting up barriers not us.

Suppose the UK had a trade deal with (random example) Brazil

Then Brazil said they wanted to pull out of that deal and not make a new deal.

Then the day after the trade deal expired Brazil said let's just send our goods and people just as we did before the deal, no tariffs and border checks.

How do you thnk the UK woud react?

[Boomstick]

BST. I reckon the majority of the country end up f**ked off after every vote, through elected governments not carrying out promises.

In fear of repeating myself, I saw only two option on the voting slip. Leave and Remain. I understood it to mean we would either remain or leave immediately and perhaps discuss any future deals with the EU after we had left.

I'm 100% sure I wasn't the only one to think that.

100 percent Definately not the only person to think it, and it should have happened that way.
It's only certain MPs, and parts of the media that are trying to stop brexit that has made this whole process alot harder than it should be.

We should be out now, striking deals with the globe and not looking back.
The only way out is a no deal, but unfortunately it won't happen.

Right, let's take that proposition forward. We just 'leave' now. The very next day - how do you get goods, people, and money across the border to the EU?

Great solutions come out of necessity. Anyway
Do you think the EU would blockade any lorries and ships from the UK?

[Bentley Bullet]

BST. I reckon the majority of the country end up f**ked off after every vote, through elected governments not carrying out promises.

In fear of repeating myself, I saw only two option on the voting slip. Leave and Remain. I understood it to mean we would either remain or leave immediately and perhaps discuss any future deals with the EU after we had left.

I'm 100% sure I wasn't the only one to think that.

Then you admit a lot of people were misled/misinformed during the referendum campaign?

Both camps misled/misinformed people during the campaign. I've never said anything contrary to that.

[Copps is Magic]

BST. I reckon the majority of the country end up f**ked off after every vote, through elected governments not carrying out promises.

In fear of repeating myself, I saw only two option on the voting slip. Leave and Remain. I understood it to mean we would either remain or leave immediately and perhaps discuss any future deals with the EU after we had left.

I'm 100% sure I wasn't the only one to think that.

100 percent Definately not the only person to think it, and it should have happened that way.
It's only certain MPs, and parts of the media that are trying to stop brexit that has made this whole process alot harder than it should be.

We should be out now, striking deals with the globe and not looking back.
The only way out is a no deal, but unfortunately it won't happen.

Right, let's take that proposition forward. We just 'leave' now. The very next day - how do you get goods, people, and money across the border to the EU?

Great solutions come out of necessity. Anyway
Do you think the EU would blockade any lorries and ships from the UK?

Well that's very interesting. Because if I remember my Chomsky correct what you're hinting at is essentially an anarchist system of government.

Instead of lorry's you know filling out their current forms or whatever, or the guy at the airport checking your passport - your proposition Boomstick, If I'm understanding it correctly, is just 'on you go'.

?