Brexit deal

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB
In the (probably vain) hope that you'll engage with the core of the argument, you can't look at EU immigration in isolation. Free movement of labour is one of the core pillars of the single market.

The question (which was never really posed in 2016) is, does your wish to control movement of labour over-ride your wish to have the very great economic benefits of being a member of the richest single market in history?

That's really what the whole thing comes down to.

Is stopping more Poles and Slovaks coming to here worth sacrificing £1trn of economic activity over the next decade?

[Bentley Bullet]

NNK. I don't recall you asking me three questions, but here goes.

And how many people are here that shouldn't be, (real numbers, not the exaggerations/lies of the Sun/Mail/Express )?

I suspect no one knows the exact figure, so I'm sure I don't!


 
Who determines who should be here and who shouldn't?

Probably nobody. Isn't it a free for all?


 
Why have successive governments failed to implement the border controls they always had the right to implement under EU rules but chose not to?
 

So the Mail and Express have a point then?

Didn't Tony Blair open the doors for everyone during his premiership?

[Bentley Bullet]

Who sets the points? Who chooses the criteria for those points? Who ensures that the system is operated fairly?

The British Parliament of course!


 
Oh, and you are aware that non-EU immigration is higher that EU immigration aren't you?

Eu immigrants still get precedence.
 

Time to stop believing what you read in the Sun/Mail/Express or wherever you get your sound-bites from.

I only read them when people like you (who don't read them) put them in here.

[Axholme Lion]

This country is vastly overpopulated. FACT
Getting rid of people who shouldn't be here should the first step in putting this right and returning this country into a green and pleasant land it once was, rather than the grey, concrete, scum ridden, shithole it has become thanks to the likes of Tony Blair teaching us all a lesson.

And how many people are here that shouldn't be, (real numbers, not the exaggerations/lies of the Sun/Mail/Express )?
 
Who determines who should be here and who shouldn't?
 
Why have successive governments failed to implement the border controls they always had the right to implement under EU rules but chose not to?
 
The problem isn't across the channel, it's right here, has been for years and years, and won't change when we leave the EU.

The problem could be solved by electing a proper nationalist government who are prepared to look after our own and tell the do gooders at home and abroad where to get off.

[Bentley Bullet]

BB
In the (probably vain) hope that you'll engage with the core of the argument, you can't look at EU immigration in isolation. Free movement of labour is one of the core pillars of the single market.

The question (which was never really posed in 2016) is, does your wish to control movement of labour over-ride your wish to have the very great economic benefits of being a member of the richest single market in history?

That's really what the whole thing comes down to.

Is stopping more Poles and Slovaks coming to here worth sacrificing £1trn of economic activity over the next decade?
[/quote

BB
In the (probably vain) hope that you'll engage with the core of the argument, you can't look at EU immigration in isolation. Free movement of labour is one of the core pillars of the single market.

The question (which was never really posed in 2016) is, does your wish to control movement of labour over-ride your wish to have the very great economic benefits of being a member of the richest single market in history?

That's really what the whole thing comes down to.

Is stopping more Poles and Slovaks coming to here worth sacrificing £1trn of economic activity over the next decade?

Nobody I know is against immigration. It is when it's not controlled that people question its worth. If a points system keeps out the freeloaders and criminals then everybody wins, don't they?

[scawsby steve]

Well played Elton John -

Sir Elton John has declared he is “ashamed” of the UK in an on-stage tirade about Brexit.

Before performing his hit “Believe” in Verona, Italy, Sir Elton launched into a rant about being “European” as opposed to a “colonial English idiot”.

He was filmed saying on Wednesday: “I’m compassionate, and I really believe that we need more love and compassion in the world today. A lot more.

“I am so sick to death of politicians, especially British politicians.“I am sick to death of Brexit. I am a European. I am not a stupid, colonial, imperialist English idiot.

Oh yeah, super rich multi-millionaire Elton John with his glamorous life style is representative of working class people isn't he? Along with Bob Geldoff, Gary Lineker, and all those loudmouthed gobshites in Hollywood.

They can all f*ck off as far as I'm concerned.

[Not Now Kato]

NNK. I don't recall you asking me three questions,

The questions I asked you are in my reply to you on the previous page, but I'll repeat that here....
 

NNK. What is racist about wanting a points-based system based on migrants from all over the world?

Where have I mentioned racism BB?
 
But if you want to talk about a points based system then a few questions....  Who sets the points? Who chooses the criteria for those points? Who ensures that the system is operated fairly?
 
Oh, and you are aware that non-EU immigration is higher that EU immigration aren't you?
 
Time to stop believing what you read in the Sun/Mail/Express or wherever you get your sound-bites from.

 
You then wrote....
 
 

but here goes.

And how many people are here that shouldn't be, (real numbers, not the exaggerations/lies of the Sun/Mail/Express )?

I suspect no one knows the exact figure, so I'm sure I don't!


 
Who determines who should be here and who shouldn't?

Probably nobody. Isn't it a free for all?


 
Why have successive governments failed to implement the border controls they always had the right to implement under EU rules but chose not to?
 

So the Mail and Express have a point then?

Didn't Tony Blair open the doors for everyone during his premiership?

BB. to answer your three points above.
 
1. No one knows how many illegal immigrants there are in this country, even the government admit that.  Which kind of proves the point that, until it is known how many illegal immigrants are here, the scale of any problem, (if indeed there is a problem), cannot be calculated.  Of course, it doesn't stop the media speculating as those previously posted front pages show.  Nor does it stop people drawing unsupportable conclusions from them.
 
2. No. it isn't a free for all, though again the media would make it seem so, and again it doesn't stop people drawing unsupportable conclusions from them.  The principal reasons for illegal immigration are a) people entering the country legally but outstaying there entry visa, b) people entering the country illegally via the 'back door'.  All other immigration is within the current rules as laid down by the government of the day.
 
3. No, Tony Blair did no such thing.  Windrush was well before his time, and we were employing Indian and Pakistani immigrants back in the 60's - I know because I worked with them and latterly employed them in the 70's.
 
Now, to my three questions above?
 
Edited to say I see you found them and answered them, thank you. 

[wilts rover]

Well played Elton John -

Sir Elton John has declared he is “ashamed” of the UK in an on-stage tirade about Brexit.

Before performing his hit “Believe” in Verona, Italy, Sir Elton launched into a rant about being “European” as opposed to a “colonial English idiot”.

He was filmed saying on Wednesday: “I’m compassionate, and I really believe that we need more love and compassion in the world today. A lot more.

“I am so sick to death of politicians, especially British politicians.“I am sick to death of Brexit. I am a European. I am not a stupid, colonial, imperialist English idiot.

Nope, sorry. You can be as compassionate, thoughtful and understanding as you want - but that still doesn't excuse all the rubbish you have unleashed on the world since 1975. (Although Blue Moves wasn't too bad).

[Glyn_Wigley]

This country is vastly overpopulated. FACT
Getting rid of people who shouldn't be here should the first step in putting this right and returning this country into a green and pleasant land it once was, rather than the grey, concrete, scum ridden, shithole it has become thanks to the likes of Tony Blair teaching us all a lesson.

And how many people are here that shouldn't be, (real numbers, not the exaggerations/lies of the Sun/Mail/Express )?
 
Who determines who should be here and who shouldn't?
 
Why have successive governments failed to implement the border controls they always had the right to implement under EU rules but chose not to?
 
The problem isn't across the channel, it's right here, has been for years and years, and won't change when we leave the EU.

The problem could be solved by electing a proper nationalist government who are prepared to look after our own and tell the do gooders at home and abroad where to get off.

I never knew you supported Nicola Sturgeon's ambitions.

[wilts rover]

This country is vastly overpopulated. FACT
Getting rid of people who shouldn't be here should the first step in putting this right and returning this country into a green and pleasant land it once was, rather than the grey, concrete, scum ridden, shithole it has become thanks to the likes of Tony Blair teaching us all a lesson.

Is this the green and pleasant land you were thinking of returning us back to?

He who turns to the left here from the main street, Long Millgate, is lost; he wanders from one court to another, turns countless corners, passes nothing but narrow, filthy nooks and alleys, until after a few minutes he has lost all clue, and knows not whither to turn. Everywhere half or wholly ruined buildings, some of them actually uninhabited, which means a great deal here; rarely a wooden or stone floor to be seen in the houses, almost uniformly broken, ill-fitting windows and doors, and a state of filth! Everywhere heaps of debris, refuse, and offal; standing pools for gutters, and a stench which alone would make it impossible for a human being in any degree civilised to live in such a district.

Frederick Engels - The Condition of the Working-Class in England in 1844

[MachoMadness]

Some prime gammon on display these last few pages. Dear me.

[Not Now Kato]

Who sets the points? Who chooses the criteria for those points? Who ensures that the system is operated fairly?

The British Parliament of course!


 
Oh, and you are aware that non-EU immigration is higher that EU immigration aren't you?

Eu immigrants still get precedence.
 

Time to stop believing what you read in the Sun/Mail/Express or wherever you get your sound-bites from.

I only read them when people like you (who don't read them) put them in here.

BB.  Thanks for responding.
 
So, do you actually believe, after the current showing regarding Brexit, that parliament could conceivably deliver and operate a fair points system?  Unbelievable!
 
And, you ignored my other two questions, surprise surprise!
 
But if EU immigrants get preference then pray tell me why are there more non-EU immigrants than EU immigrants? I'd love to know as the system, portraid by you, is biassed against them.
 
As to your comment re the newspapers, if you only read them when someone posts a link to them I'd love to know where your repeated sound-bites come from.  Care to elaborate?
 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Lads.

Do you have ANY idea how much contempt Farage has for you and your intelligence? How he and his paymasters think you are so f**king dense that they can fire off any shite at you and you will swallow it?

Here's the latest. They've given up any pretence at subtlety and are simply lying straight out at you now.

https://mobile.twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1134443104336003073

Watch that video clip.

It looks shocking doesn't it?

Hidden cameras catching Barnier unawares, talking about how they planned to use Ireland as a negotiating tool to get the deal they want.

The f**king nasty, evil, devious French Kitson.

Except.

Yeah, except that video was doctored from a recent documentary.

One that DIDN'T have hidden cameras. One where Barnier was filmed totally openly.

Someone at Arron Banks/Nigel Farage's Leave.EU has edited it to make it look like hidden cameras.

But they haven't edited the words.  Barnier DID say exactly that. What they HAVE done is to cut out the bit where Barnier is saying that when they go into the negotiations they expected the BRITISH to use Ireland as a negotiating tool to get the deal they want.

Stop and think.

Why in God's name do you think they are doing this? Lying, openly and unashamedly. Presenting what looks like facts which are actually the total reverse.

Why do you think they are thinking YOU, you personally, and your mates who support Brexit are so f**king stupid that you will swallow this? Why they think you are so f**king thick that you will just accept this and not realise you're being lied to?

This is beyond partisanship now. This is beyond laughing off. If you see this and STILL support these people, you really do not care about truth and honesty. Support them if you want, but accept what it makes you.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I hope the BBC sues them for breach of copyright.

[BillyStubbsTears]

That barely scratches the point though Glyn does it?

These tactics are unprecedented. They're not even attempting to hide the lies now.

I'm genuinely gobsmacked at this. Everything the Leave side has done before has had a clever, clever semantic argument to be able to make the claim that they weren't really lying. And we know that works, because BB was defending it yesterday.

But this is totally different. This is taking something that's out there in public and deliberately and consciously presenting it as the opposite. To win a political argument.

No-one does this. It just does not happen. Ever.

But in an environment where people like SS and Selby and BB think everyone is lying (when they aren’t) I guess it makes sense to just lie even harder.

Even if you point out the lie, the people who want to listen to it will just say, "f**k it. It's MY side lying so I don't care."

[Glyn_Wigley]

I know, but the BBC doing it would get the real story of what they're up to all over the news.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Fair point.

Problem is, the BBC has shown no sign whatsoever of wanting to take the Leave side  to task for their lying previously.

[scawsby steve]

BST

What is it that makes you and your mates on here want to rant in favour of losing causes?

Oh, I get it; you in the minority are all brain boffins, and we in the majority are all thickheads.

That explains it all; I must have gone to the wrong university.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Because for most of my life Doncaster Rovers were a losing cause too, eh?

That's just my first guess though. I haven't yet started thinking about having principles and not changing them just because some crowing winner tells me to.

[SydneyRover]

BST

What is it that makes you and your mates on here want to rant in favour of losing causes?

Oh, I get it; you in the minority are all brain boffins, and we in the majority are all thickheads.

That explains it all; I must have gone to the wrong university.

Steve we are all here because we support DR and we have varying views on Brexit which we all entitled to discus on the open forum. I don't speak for anyone else but it's hard to get away from the the plain and simple truth that the majority if not all credible economic experts are advising that the UK economy will suffer if we leave.

Those that wish to stay in the EU are continually inviting those that wish to leave to post credible sources that state an opposing view and apart from a few fringe topics the response has been zero, zilch, nada, although there has however been plenty of excuses as to why these credible article have not been posted.

The other part of the argument is that the Pro-EU camp has not stopped those that wish to brexit from doing so it's, because the government cannot get it's shit together. (others can provide a more technical explanation)

Any of this does not even touch the flawed process of getting to this point.

As I have said before, not necessarily directly to you but possible ................. if you want to win/end this debate you'll have to counter the above and no one has to date.

[BillyStubbsTears]

SS
Is that it? You see the contempt that Farage holds you in and you lash out at ME for pointing it out?

No. It's not ME thinking you are thick. It's the people you are voting for who think that. Evidently. They despise you.

I'm "ranting" about this because I love this country and it horrifies me that people like Farage and Banks (who have such contempt for the people of Doncaster that they serve up that sort of shit and expect you to believe it) might end up running this country.

Tell me. Simple straight answer. Does that video not concern you at all?

[Bentley Bullet]

Billy. Do European migrants get preference over non-Europeans regarding entry into the UK?
 

[Axholme Lion]

SS
Is that it? You see the contempt that Farage holds you in and you lash out at ME for pointing it out?

No. It's not ME thinking you are thick. It's the people you are voting for who think that. Evidently. They despise you.

I'm "ranting" about this because I love this country and it horrifies me that people like Farage and Banks (who have such contempt for the people of Doncaster that they serve up that sort of shit and expect you to believe it) might end up running this country.

Tell me. Simple straight answer. Does that video not concern you at all?

If you love this country why do you want to fill it with foreigners?
Well I don't want them to live anywhere near me!
Why is it right that jobs can be advertised giving preference to Polish speakers in Britain? Would it happen the other way around over there?

[Not Now Kato]

BST

What is it that makes you and your mates on here want to rant in favour of losing causes?

Oh, I get it; you in the minority are all brain boffins, and we in the majority are all thickheads.

That explains it all; I must have gone to the wrong university.

Remainers are not brain boffins.   They are people who recognise the benefits of remaining in the EU and the consequences of us leaving it.  We also recognise the lies and undeliverable promises of the leave campaigns.
 
If leaving the EU is so good for the country then please tell us how we are going to be as well off as we are now let alone be better off when we leave.
 
And tell us how the Irish border issue can be resolved to the satisfaction of both halves.
 
It seems to me that many leavers have taken the fixed position of 'we voted leave so we must leave', no matter how much it will hurt them and the country!

[Axholme Lion]

This country is vastly overpopulated. FACT
Getting rid of people who shouldn't be here should the first step in putting this right and returning this country into a green and pleasant land it once was, rather than the grey, concrete, scum ridden, shithole it has become thanks to the likes of Tony Blair teaching us all a lesson.

Is this the green and pleasant land you were thinking of returning us back to?

He who turns to the left here from the main street, Long Millgate, is lost; he wanders from one court to another, turns countless corners, passes nothing but narrow, filthy nooks and alleys, until after a few minutes he has lost all clue, and knows not whither to turn. Everywhere half or wholly ruined buildings, some of them actually uninhabited, which means a great deal here; rarely a wooden or stone floor to be seen in the houses, almost uniformly broken, ill-fitting windows and doors, and a state of filth! Everywhere heaps of debris, refuse, and offal; standing pools for gutters, and a stench which alone would make it impossible for a human being in any degree civilised to live in such a district.

Frederick Engels - The Condition of the Working-Class in England in 1844

Well it's getting less green by the day as we rush to build more and more housing due to the unsustainable population growth.
The population crisis no-one wants to talk about which is an even bigger issue than Brexit. You only have to look at the rape of Auckley/Finningley by the builders. How much wildlife has been made homeless by the Amazon monstrosity?

[Axholme Lion]

BST

What is it that makes you and your mates on here want to rant in favour of losing causes?

Oh, I get it; you in the minority are all brain boffins, and we in the majority are all thickheads.

That explains it all; I must have gone to the wrong university.

Remainers are not brain boffins.   They are people who recognise the benefits of remaining in the EU and the consequences of us leaving it.  We also recognise the lies and undeliverable promises of the leave campaigns.
 
If leaving the EU is so good for the country then please tell us how we are going to be as well off as we are now let alone be better off when we leave.
 
And tell us how the Irish border issue can be resolved to the satisfaction of both halves.
 
It seems to me that many leavers have taken the fixed position of 'we voted leave so we must leave', no matter how much it will hurt them and the country!

No-one knows if we will be better or worse off because it hasn't happened.

The Irish border is not our problem. The EU are the ones who are making an issue of it.

[Not Now Kato]

Billy. Do European migrants get preference over non-Europeans regarding entry into the UK?

At the moment we are full members of the EU.  As such there is freedom of movement between all EU countries, them's the rules.  In terms of employment, it is down to the individual employer to determine who to employ and one would hope that employers will pick the best candidate irrespective of race, colour, sex etc.
 
We, as a nation, benefit from that freedom of movement; both with relevantly skilled Europeans coming here to work and Britons going to EU countries to work or to retire to France, Spain, Italy etc - it's a two way street that benefits all parties, it's not them versus us FFS!  Though the media would have the gullible think otherwise.

[Not Now Kato]

BST

What is it that makes you and your mates on here want to rant in favour of losing causes?

Oh, I get it; you in the minority are all brain boffins, and we in the majority are all thickheads.

That explains it all; I must have gone to the wrong university.

Remainers are not brain boffins.   They are people who recognise the benefits of remaining in the EU and the consequences of us leaving it.  We also recognise the lies and undeliverable promises of the leave campaigns.
 
If leaving the EU is so good for the country then please tell us how we are going to be as well off as we are now let alone be better off when we leave.
 
And tell us how the Irish border issue can be resolved to the satisfaction of both halves.
 
It seems to me that many leavers have taken the fixed position of 'we voted leave so we must leave', no matter how much it will hurt them and the country!

No-one knows if we will be better or worse off because it hasn't happened.

The Irish border is not our problem. The EU are the ones who are making an issue of it.

I see you choose to ignore the experts who tell us we will be worse off when we leave, no change there.  But you can't ignore that fact that, as a country, we are already all worse off than we were before the vote - and we haven't even left yet!
 
As to the Irish border, wasn't it us as part of the leave campaigns who wanted to 'take back control of our borders'?  To do that we have to have a border, and that is clearly down to us.

Come on AL, you must be able to come up with some tangible benefits of us leaving the EU; after all, you wouldn't have voted leave if you couldn't see any tangible benefits - well, unless you fell for the lies and guff of the leave campaigns!  £350M/week for the NHS perhaps?

[Axholme Lion]

To make business with the rest of the world rather than be shackled to the rules of foreign governments. I know you will say we agreed to the rules but our politicians have been on the Westminster/Brussels gravy train for too long. They would rather appease the faceless ones in ultimate power than look after the British people.
I would love to see a no deal Brexit just for the joy of seeing the German car industry take a massive hit.

[Bentley Bullet]

Billy. Do European migrants get preference over non-Europeans regarding entry into the UK?

At the moment we are full members of the EU.  As such there is freedom of movement between all EU countries, them's the rules.  In terms of employment, it is down to the individual employer to determine who to employ and one would hope that employers will pick the best candidate irrespective of race, colour, sex etc.
 
We, as a nation, benefit from that freedom of movement; both with relevantly skilled Europeans coming here to work and Britons going to EU countries to work or to retire to France, Spain, Italy etc - it's a two way street that benefits all parties, it's not them versus us FFS!  Though the media would have the gullible think otherwise.

That wasn't the question. The question was do EU migrants get preference over non-EU's regarding entry into the UK? The answer is that they do.

I asked your leader the question because you would have believed him more than me. Alas, as usual, he only answers my questions when it suits.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45634901