Brexit deal

[scawsby steve]

Interesting how much the goalposts have shifted on Brexit. At first it was going to be the greatest thing ever, ushering in a great new era for Britain. There'd be a smile on the face of every child and money in everyone's pockets. Now we have Boris Johnson on stage waving a fish about and saying we will still have drinking water and planes will still fly. And people are still fired up about the whole thing. Truly strange times.

You're completely missing the point. People aren't fired up about the WHOLE thing; they're fired up about Parliament telling 17.4 million people to f*ck off.

[BillyStubbsTears]

SS

Argh! It's the ERG that prevented May's deal going through! Brexiters voted against a hard Brexit because they decided after the 2016 vote that a hard Brexit wasn't enough!

You could have had Brexit by now if the hardest of Brexiters had been prepared to compromise.

So who exactly are you blaming?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Interesting how much the goalposts have shifted on Brexit. At first it was going to be the greatest thing ever, ushering in a great new era for Britain. There'd be a smile on the face of every child and money in everyone's pockets. Now we have Boris Johnson on stage waving a fish about and saying we will still have drinking water and planes will still fly. And people are still fired up about the whole thing. Truly strange times.

You're completely missing the point. People aren't fired up about the WHOLE thing; they're fired up about Parliament telling 17.4 million people to f*ck off.

You're also missing a point. The point that Parliament is there to represent the whole of the 65mill+ of the British population. MPs are there to represent ALL of their constituents. Or do you think that MPs should only represent their constituents that voted for them, and don't have to bother representing their constituents that didn't vote for them?

[scawsby steve]

You're all missing the point. I was pointing out exactly what it is that people are fired up about. You're all saying why people shouldn't be fired up about that; a different thing altogether.

[selby]

  Glyn , you have missed the point that MP's are only worried about being re elected, and don't give two hoots about their constituents.
  That's why the letter signed by twenty odd, with up to a reported another twenty plus labour MP's from their northern heartlands are saying they will now vote for Brexit.

[BillyStubbsTears]

SS

Why do you think.people are fired up about that?

[Glyn_Wigley]

  Glyn , you have missed the point that MP's are only worried about being re elected, and don't give two hoots about their constituents.
  That's why the letter signed by twenty odd, with up to a reported another twenty plus labour MP's from their northern heartlands are saying they will now vote for Brexit.

If that was the case, why are so many of them apparently risking not being re-elected by opposing a bad deal and also no deal? Sounds like a case of sticking to their principles rather than naked self-interest to me.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Christ up above, it's like "Slag-off an MP with a thoughtless insult" Bingo tonight.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Well Selby just went with the 'slag all MPs with a thoughtless insult' gambit, and completely ignoring an MPs constitutional responsibilty.

[scawsby steve]

SS

Why do you think.people are fired up about that?

You know what I think. The people of this country gave Parliament a mandate 3 years ago. They've refused to deliver it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Right.

And, once again. What WAS that mandate?

[wilts rover]

SS

Why do you think.people are fired up about that?

You know what I think. The people of this country gave Parliament a mandate 3 years ago. They've refused to deliver it.

And Theresa May took that mandate to the people in a GE where she asked them to give her a bigger majority so she could deliver a 'Brexit Means Brexit' and the people said 'Nah, don't fancy that'.

[scawsby steve]

I give up. It's impossible.

All I know is that this country's f*cked forever.

[BillyStubbsTears]

SS

We've been over this for 3 years. Do you still not get the root cause of the problem?

There is no one defined thing that is Brexit. THAT'S the problem. No one agrees in what it means.

So saying "You got a mandate - get on with it!" is childish nonsense. Get on with WHAT? No Deal, May Deal, Canada Deal, Canada+, Norway Deal, Norway+? Every one of those would be A Brexit. But no-one can agree on which one the mandate  was for

Do you not see that? It's spellbindingly bleeding obvious!

[DonnyOsmond]

SS

We've been over this for 3 years. Do you still not get the root cause of the problem?

There is no one defined thing that is Brexit. THAT'S the problem. No one agrees in what it means.

So saying "You got a mandate - get on with it!" is childish nonsense. Get on with WHAT? No Deal, May Deal, Canada Deal, Canada+, Norway Deal, Norway+? Every one of those would be A Brexit. But no-one can agree on which one the mandate  was for

Do you not see that? It's spellbindingly bleeding obvious!

You're talking to a wall.


I'm glad some MPs have rebelled and put country before themselves or their party.

[SydneyRover]

No one likes a sore winner!

''Revenue chief who received death threats over Brexit steps down''

''The straight-talking Thompson, who joined in 2016, was highly regarded in the civil service and was not afraid of telling inconvenient truths about the cost of Brexit at his numerous appearances at select committees.

As early as September 2017 he was warning the government about Brexit fantasies, telling a select committee that border and tax checks after Brexit could require an extra 5,000 staff, with new customs checks costing the taxpayer up to £800m''

''Last year he revealed he received death threats after disclosing that the post-EU customs option preferred by Brexiters would cost up to £20bn''

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/18/revenue-chief-quits-after-death-threats-over-brexit-warnings

Jon Thompson, what would he know?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Thompson_(civil_servant)

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yeah, I know that. But you have to keep on talking. Maybe the penny drops eventually.

[Glyn_Wigley]

SS

Why do you think.people are fired up about that?

You know what I think. The people of this country gave Parliament a mandate 3 years ago. They've refused to deliver it.

What about the mandate given Parliament 2 years ago?

[SydneyRover]

Boris Johnson is not up to this and way out of his depth. He would have been struggling before but now a majority vote has passed to block any attempt to suspend parliament means that serious negotiations have to take place and that is something beyond his attention span.

Edit: In a three way run off for the leadership I would give it to the kipper.

[Colemans Left Hook]

And that oversimplification is exactly why binary referendums shouldn't be used on such complex issues.

reading this post about "binary referendums" i took up the challenge to search for a tertiary referendum - the 3rd option presumably being  dont .care. a f*ck for countries that force you to vote eg Australia ?

interestingly found this from 2017

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/paul-goldsmith/why-tertiary-legislation-hidden_b_18535692.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmluZy5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAGcF0xh1yoO1oAPOgKllXIONX0NYbTMSCHge7Ts9Zot5acapEj6bW7wxO-_RkNhWyYenwwULQDyac3W47BC5HCwDmuf7L70JMDhy8WjKsu-ytjGYQUL2qHy_hkFYwf85lCP59yrevegGagG-01hbIF0T5dGmDj5X0lg_6vC04KMf

which mentions tertiary legislation

[scawsby steve]

SS

We've been over this for 3 years. Do you still not get the root cause of the problem?

There is no one defined thing that is Brexit. THAT'S the problem. No one agrees in what it means.

So saying "You got a mandate - get on with it!" is childish nonsense. Get on with WHAT? No Deal, May Deal, Canada Deal, Canada+, Norway Deal, Norway+? Every one of those would be A Brexit. But no-one can agree on which one the mandate  was for

Do you not see that? It's spellbindingly bleeding obvious!

You're talking to a wall.


I'm glad some MPs have rebelled and put country before themselves or their party.

Before themselves and their REMAIN views? You're having a laugh if you expect us to swallow that.

[Glyn_Wigley]

SS

We've been over this for 3 years. Do you still not get the root cause of the problem?

There is no one defined thing that is Brexit. THAT'S the problem. No one agrees in what it means.

So saying "You got a mandate - get on with it!" is childish nonsense. Get on with WHAT? No Deal, May Deal, Canada Deal, Canada+, Norway Deal, Norway+? Every one of those would be A Brexit. But no-one can agree on which one the mandate  was for

Do you not see that? It's spellbindingly bleeding obvious!

You're talking to a wall.


I'm glad some MPs have rebelled and put country before themselves or their party.

Before themselves and their REMAIN views? You're having a laugh if you expect us to swallow that.

Yeah, the ERG and the DUP are well known for being militant Remoaners!

[scawsby steve]

SS

We've been over this for 3 years. Do you still not get the root cause of the problem?

There is no one defined thing that is Brexit. THAT'S the problem. No one agrees in what it means.

So saying "You got a mandate - get on with it!" is childish nonsense. Get on with WHAT? No Deal, May Deal, Canada Deal, Canada+, Norway Deal, Norway+? Every one of those would be A Brexit. But no-one can agree on which one the mandate  was for

Do you not see that? It's spellbindingly bleeding obvious!

No, what's spellbindingly bleeding obvious is that the one thing you've missed off that list is THE thing that it's all about - REMAIN.

The majority of Parliament want us to Remain, and are determined to block any form of Brexit. If you can't see that, then it's me who's talking to a wall.

[wilts rover]

SS

We've been over this for 3 years. Do you still not get the root cause of the problem?

There is no one defined thing that is Brexit. THAT'S the problem. No one agrees in what it means.

So saying "You got a mandate - get on with it!" is childish nonsense. Get on with WHAT? No Deal, May Deal, Canada Deal, Canada+, Norway Deal, Norway+? Every one of those would be A Brexit. But no-one can agree on which one the mandate  was for

Do you not see that? It's spellbindingly bleeding obvious!

No, what's spellbindingly bleeding obvious is that the one thing you've missed off that list is THE thing that it's all about - REMAIN.

The majority of Parliament want us to Remain, and are determined to block any form of Brexit. If you can't see that, then it's me who's talking to a wall.

Actually in pure voting terms you are wrong Steve. Most of the Tory Party voted for May's deal 3rd time out. The ERG/DUP voted for No Deal. Most of the Labour Party voted for Common Market 2.0. 4 votes on a 2nd referendum have been well short of a majority.

So Parliament will vote for Brexit, but just as Billy said, they wont vote for the same Brexit.

[scawsby steve]

Thanks for that Wilts. As usual, your post is much calmer and more composed than your colleagues.

It sounds as though you think Boris might get something over the line. I wish I could believe that.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Johnson is highly unlikely to get anything over the line.

Once you take the position that we're leaving the CU, the EU isn't going to budge from its position that there is no deal on offer unless we agree to the Irish backstop.

But the ERG and DUP won't support the backstop. So that can't pass in Parliament.

The only other option then is No Deal. But it's clear that Parliament will not allow that. Quite correctly, because to do so would be the biggest act of self-harm in British history, and a complete betrayal of the democratic process, since there has never been a majority in the country supporting No Deal, and it was never seriously mentioned in 2016.

Reight f**king mess of Johnson's own making. If there's one tiny bright spot in the whole shambles, it's that at least the bas**rd who tipped us into this mess now has to own it and be defined by it.

[bpoolrover]

It’s most of the mps fault to be fair, leaving with a no deal might be a stupid idea but trying to take it off the table is ridiculous, we might never had got a good deal but without the threat of no deal the eu new we would never leave

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bpool.

Christ, here we go again.

A threat isn't a threat if it's totally unbelievable. Threatening to walk away with no deal is stupid. Because everyone knows we won't do it. Because it would be horrifically damaging to our economy. May TRIED that. Remember all the "No Deal is better than a bad deal" b*llocks? It didn't work, because the EU said, "Really? Go on then." In the full knowledge that no country is stupid enough to do that.

And in any case, what would you have expected the EU to give us even if they HAD taken that threat seriously?

That's the biggest problem for me in talking to any Leave supporter. They say we should have got a better deal, but they never, EVER say what that means. What better deal should we have got through threatening to f**k up our own economy?

[bpoolrover]

Here we go again bst! If you take your barganing chips off the table you will never get anything in life

[bpoolrover]

To set off a nuclear weapon would be a stupid idea to but countries use them as a deterrent, you could be right it might be awful for our economy but it would be for the eu as well, then it’s a lose lose situation and maybe just maybe you would have a chance at getting a better deal, take it off you have none, can you not see that? If you were prime minister bst and had no option but to do brexit would you try and negotiate with no deal?