Brexit deal

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

BFYP.

That graph was dealing with costs and benefits as a proportion of DISPOSABLE income. So the fact that richer people pay more in income tax and mortgages is irrelevant, because we're talking about the effect of indirect taxes on the money that you have left AFTER paying Income Tax and housing costs.

Nobody's trying to spin stats here. It's entirely indisputable that indirect taxes like VAT are regressive (i.e. they hit the poorest hardest). And direct taxes like Income Tax are progressive (they hit the richest hardest).

It's also a matter of factual record that no Tory Govt has ever reduced VAT, and no Tory Govt in my lifetime has ever increased Income Tax.

Like I say, draw your own conclusions.

Fair point I misread that, but the point still stands someone with more disposable income will push it in to other areas that incur less VAT, that's obvious.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP.

Yes! And that's precisely the point! So poorer people pay far more VAT as a proportion of their disposable income than richer people. And so, increases in VAT disproportionately hit the poor.

There's nothing to argue about here. Increasing VAT while decreasing Income Tax increases the gap in spending power between the rich and the poor. And the Tories, whenever they can, decrease Income Tax and increase VAT. Those issues are simple facts.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

It's a daft stat though.  I mean saying a person with £1m of disposable income spends less on VAT as a % because they spend less as of the % total is hardly a problem is it?  I mean how do you get around it, tax on savings and investments etc, force them to spend it?

[BillyStubbsTears]

No, it's very, very simple. It's not a daft stat at all.

VAT takes a higher proportion of a poor person's disposable income than a rich person's. It a simple fact.

Because VAT is charged on things that are essential for most people to be able to function at anything above bare existence level (clothes, petrol, sanitary towels, eating out, cars, computers, phones, holidays) then there's no escaping it. Poor people spend a larger proportion of their income on these things than richer people, so CHOOSING to apply high rates of VAT instead of increasing, say, income tax hits the poor hardest.

If you care about poverty and inequality, you deal with that by striking a different balance between income tax and VAT.

It's not difficult. It's entirely down to what you want to prioritise.

[SydneyRover]

Exactly which is why we have so many people in poverty.

[Glyn_Wigley]

No, it's very, very simple. It's not a daft stat at all.

VAT takes a higher proportion of a poor person's disposable income than a rich person's. It a simple fact.

Because VAT is charged on things that are essential for most people to be able to function at anything above bare existence level (clothes, petrol, sanitary towels, eating out, cars, computers, phones, holidays) then there's no escaping it. Poor people spend a larger proportion of their income on these things than richer people, so CHOOSING to apply high rates of VAT instead of increasing, say, income tax hits the poor hardest.

If you care about poverty and inequality, you deal with that by striking a different balance between income tax and VAT.

It's not difficult. It's entirely down to what you want to prioritise.

Not only that, the more you move towards income tax rather than VAT, the more that the poorer end of the economy has as disposable income, the more things they can afford to buy and the more that that stimulates demand and economic growth.

[RedJ]

Textbook economics that appears to have been ignored over the past decade...

[wilts rover]

The Tory right-wing rejected the deal because of the backstop agreement. They wanted to leave but didn't think the deal was right. The Remainers, on the other hand, wanted to reject everything in order to have a second referendum.

This may assist those people trying to explain the ERG position and what sort of deal the Tory hard right want. Or if they want a deal at all?

Steve Baker, ERG chairman - why the backstop is not the only problem in the withdrawal agreement

https://twitter.com/stevebakerhw/status/1140637696097955841?s=12

[BillyStubbsTears]

Good call Wilts.

Fascinating how the likes of Baker were utterly vague about what Brexit meant in 2016, but crystal clear now. The ERG, representing maybe 15-20% of MPs, and the views of maybe, at a push, 25-30% of the population, had hijacked Brexit for their own ends.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

No, it's very, very simple. It's not a daft stat at all.

VAT takes a higher proportion of a poor person's disposable income than a rich person's. It a simple fact.

Because VAT is charged on things that are essential for most people to be able to function at anything above bare existence level (clothes, petrol, sanitary towels, eating out, cars, computers, phones, holidays) then there's no escaping it. Poor people spend a larger proportion of their income on these things than richer people, so CHOOSING to apply high rates of VAT instead of increasing, say, income tax hits the poor hardest.

If you care about poverty and inequality, you deal with that by striking a different balance between income tax and VAT.

It's not difficult. It's entirely down to what you want to prioritise.

I agree on a couple of things but is our vat rate high? The link I previously posted demonstrates it to be lower than much of Europe and it can only be substantially cut by leaving the eu!

We will disagree simply as I think current tax rates are on the whole fair.

[SydneyRover]

''According to EU law, EU Member States are required to levy a standard VAT rate of at least 15 percent and a reduced rate of at least 5 percent. Switzerland, as a non-EU country, levies the lowest VAT rate of only 7.7 percent, followed by Luxembourg (17 percent), Turkey (18 percent), and Germany (19 percent).Feb 28, 2019''

Not sure how this works in practice but a low rate in Switzerland has not made it a low cost place to visit.

This has a list of all the rates

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_value_added_tax

[SydneyRover]

Why would you need to 'turn on the money taps' isn't brexit supposed to be xmas every day, win-win, up to one's neck in trade deals where we sell our goods at the best prices and import for next to nothing?????? Nirvana on steroids???? business must be gearing up for the rush????? I can see the street parties now, bunting and pork pies with Vera Lynn singing in the background

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovfQjR3iU-A

''Chancellor announces spending round amid election speculation, as  Boris Johnson gets ready to turn on the taps''

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/08/chancellor-announces-spending-round-amid-election-speculation/

''Tories accused of 'panic measures' for fast-tracking spending plans before Brexit''

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tories-accused-panic-measures-fast-18865361

[Glyn_Wigley]

''According to EU law, EU Member States are required to levy a standard VAT rate of at least 15 percent and a reduced rate of at least 5 percent. Switzerland, as a non-EU country, levies the lowest VAT rate of only 7.7 percent, followed by Luxembourg (17 percent), Turkey (18 percent), and Germany (19 percent).Feb 28, 2019''

Not sure how this works in practice but a low rate in Switzerland has not made it a low cost place to visit.

This has a list of all the rates

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_value_added_tax

The idea behind VAT is that eventually VAT rates across the EU are harmonised ie are at the same rate in every EU member state as part of the Single Market so that there doesn't have to be the bureaucratic artificial harmonisation of Intrastat.

However, there's never been the political will to do it. Ever. But that's not you get told by those who want to portray the UK as being under the EU's political jackboot.

[Herbert Anchovy]

''According to EU law, EU Member States are required to levy a standard VAT rate of at least 15 percent and a reduced rate of at least 5 percent. Switzerland, as a non-EU country, levies the lowest VAT rate of only 7.7 percent, followed by Luxembourg (17 percent), Turkey (18 percent), and Germany (19 percent).Feb 28, 2019''

Not sure how this works in practice but a low rate in Switzerland has not made it a low cost place to visit.

This has a list of all the rates

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_value_added_tax

The idea behind VAT is that eventually VAT rates across the EU are harmonised ie are at the same rate in every EU member state as part of the Single Market so that there doesn't have to be the bureaucratic artificial harmonisation of Intrastat.

However, there's never been the political will to do it. Ever. But that's not you get told by those who want to portray the UK as being under the EU's political jackboot.

What I do know is that the last Labour government wanted to reduce energy VAT to zero for pensioners, but were unable to do so due to the EU VAT rules you refer to.,

[SydneyRover]

HA, it may have been that as the ''The EU commission wants to abolish or reduce the scope of exemptions'' that they wouldn't allow further additions? only a guess though.

Exemption from VAT

There is a distinction between goods and services that are exempt from VAT and those that are subject to 0% VAT. The seller of exempt goods is not entitled to reclaim VAT on business purchases, whereas the seller of goods and services rated at 0% is entitled.[27] An example would be a book manufacturer in Ireland, who purchases paper including VAT at the 23% rate,[28] and sells books at the 0% rate;[29] the manufacturer would be entitled to reclaim the VAT paid on the paper as the business is making taxable supplies. In countries like Sweden and Finland non-profit organisations such as sports clubs are exempt from all VAT, and have to pay full VAT for purchases without reclaim.[citation needed][clarification needed] Also in Malta, the purchase of food for human consumption from supermarkets, grocers etc., the purchase of pharmaceutical products, school tuition fees and scheduled bus service fares are exempted from VAT.[30] The EU commission wants to abolish or reduce the scope of exemptions.[31] There are objections from sports federations since this would create cost and a lot of bureaucracy for voluntary staff.[32]

[Glyn_Wigley]

''According to EU law, EU Member States are required to levy a standard VAT rate of at least 15 percent and a reduced rate of at least 5 percent. Switzerland, as a non-EU country, levies the lowest VAT rate of only 7.7 percent, followed by Luxembourg (17 percent), Turkey (18 percent), and Germany (19 percent).Feb 28, 2019''

Not sure how this works in practice but a low rate in Switzerland has not made it a low cost place to visit.

This has a list of all the rates

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_value_added_tax

The idea behind VAT is that eventually VAT rates across the EU are harmonised ie are at the same rate in every EU member state as part of the Single Market so that there doesn't have to be the bureaucratic artificial harmonisation of Intrastat.

However, there's never been the political will to do it. Ever. But that's not you get told by those who want to portray the UK as being under the EU's political jackboot.

What I do know is that the last Labour government wanted to reduce energy VAT to zero for pensioners, but were unable to do so due to the EU VAT rules you refer to.,

Yes, because the Tory government before threw away the zero-rating on ALL domestic fuel that the UK - and only the UK in the EU - had. Because those EU VAT rules are intended to gradually move countries VAT rates closer together, once you give up a zero-rating you can't get it back. If Labour hadn't been elected in 1997 and reversed the intended domestic fuel decision back the 5% lowest that was allowed, we'd all be now be paying 20% on all our domestic fuel.

But of course, that doesn't disproportionately affect the poorest in our society, especially those on fixed incomes, at all...

[wilts rover]

The Tory right-wing rejected the deal because of the backstop agreement. They wanted to leave but didn't think the deal was right. The Remainers, on the other hand, wanted to reject everything in order to have a second referendum.

This may assist those people trying to explain the ERG position and what sort of deal the Tory hard right want. Or if they want a deal at all?

Steve Baker, ERG chairman - why the backstop is not the only problem in the withdrawal agreement

https://twitter.com/stevebakerhw/status/1140637696097955841?s=12

A bit more on this has now come to light. When David Frost ('our' new EU negotiator) went to Brussels last week for talks with EU officials he was asked if the backstop was removed would Parliament pass the WA. His answer was No.

Johnson now rejects all the level playing field commitments in the WA that were put in there to stop us scrapping environmental/food/health & safety/working time regulations after we leave.

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1159569608644472842

[SydneyRover]

Normally when there is a big announcement or the opening of a new business venture, the Olympics or the Football World Cup, a new direction for the country there is celebration, fireworks, positivity, cheering, street parades .............. why is the country doing the opposite like we are preparing for war or disaster?

Why is the government itself considering a plan for the country that is likely to trigger a recession?

The Times:

''Boris Johnson is drawing up plans for a bailout fund to prop up businesses in the event of a no-deal Brexit amid fears that the economy is on the cusp of a recession.

Michael Gove, who is leading the no-deal preparations, confirmed for the first time that ministers were working on a package to help companies at risk of collapse.

The Times understands that the government has drawn up a secret list of big British employers that are considered most at risk, with the worst affected expected to be in the construction and manufacturing sectors''

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/bailout-fund-to-prop-up-businesses-after-brexit-8w2883fz2

[SydneyRover]

What will we do with all this control we're taking back, come and get it while it's hot.

A memo from a government department mistakenly emailed to the BBC says

"At this stage, there is a lot of uncertainty about the sufficiency of enforcement in a no-deal because we have 12 vessels that need to monitor a space three times the size of the surface area of the UK."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49302778

[graingrover]

As I live on the continent and have dual nationality I am more focused on what is going on within the EU....in a nutshell it is stagnating .It has no mission statement as to what it aims to achieve over the next 5 years as most organisations would have .It”s values are unclear since on one hand it interferes in Polish and Hungarian state matters but turns a blind eye to the fascist stance of the Madrid government regarding the Catalan political prisoners .It craves a European army of 27 nations yet has no foreign policy to guide such an army on the outbreak of world events that might require an army to mobilise .It has no plans for a navy nor airforce nor anti terrorist surveillance infrastructure...it is impossible to take such strategies seriously.A trade deal with the EU would suffice for UK..and a free flow of labour provided people were documented  with an ID card like the ones I have held when living and working in Italy,Spain,France and Belgium throughout my life .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Nice to still be able to get the odd grim laugh out of our national hari-kiri.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Mannerings69/status/1160179004055400448

[SydneyRover]

That man Banks loves publicity aye?

Smuggling claims cast shadow over Brexit’s £8m diamond geezer Arron Banks

The National Crime Agency is examining fresh allegations about Arron Banks and his South African mines.

The National Crime Agency (NCA) is examining claims that Arron Banks, the businessman who helped fund Brexit, smuggled diamonds out of South Africa.

The NCA has been passed allegations made by Banks’s former business partner that Banks attempted to source black-market gems from Zimbabwe and pretend they had come from his mines in South Africa.

The evidence, collected by South Africa’s organised crime unit, includes a claim that Banks was “dealing with Russians” and trying “to marry . . . illegally gotten diamonds” from other African nations with output from his own struggling mines.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/smuggling-claims-cast-shadow-over-brexits-8m-diamond-geezer-arron-banks-t9dfgklhz

[SydneyRover]

Despite it appears knowing nothing about UK exports and never having heard of google Rodger Bootle from the Telegraph proceeds to tell us how we can trade with the world by presumably reducing the UK workforce to serfs and bringing back the barter system where you work for him for 80-100 hours a week without public holidays or annual leave and he gives you and your family the scraps from his table.

paywall: Singapore-style reforms can cut through Britain's tax and trade red tape outside the EU

''Now that Brexit is getting closer, more attention is being directed to our future trade relationships, especially with the US but also with the rest of the world. This is entirely appropriate. Trade matters, and the tariff regime and associated trading arrangements have some bearing on trade performance. But nothing like as much as people commonly think. You don’t need trade agreements in order to trade. This is shown by the fact that, despite there currently being no trade agreement between us, our largest single export market is the US''

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/08/11/tax-rule-reform-cant-optional-extra-following-eu-exit/

Export market table.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_United_Kingdom

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

We're ok, Caroline Lucas has solved it all!

She's bloody bonkers.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49314840

[German Rover]

We're ok, Caroline Lucas has solved it all!

She's bloody bonkers.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49314840

Well the women can't do much worse than the men have done on this so far.

I don't count the maybot by the way, god only knows if shes human, never mind female!

[SydneyRover]

We're ok, Caroline Lucas has solved it all!

She's bloody bonkers.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49314840

Well the women can't do much worse than the men have done on this so far.

I don't count the maybot by the way, god only knows if shes human, never mind female!

I'll second that GR, men are more likely to be listened to even in 2019.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well. It's kind of gone like this.

First message. We'll take back control and unleash the glorious power of the UK once we're freed from the jackboot if the EUSSR.

2) Well, yes, there may be some teething problems but it's nothing we can't handle.

3) Yes, alright, we KNOW there are going to be 20 mile jams on the M20, with some time critical foods and medicines not getting through but Dunkirk Spirit, eh?

4) We survived the Plague, we'll survive Brexit.

5) We reserve the right to shoot you if you leave your house after sunset when we leave.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sweeping-powers-to-impose-curfews-and-alter-the-law-under-no-deal-brexit-llx3t3v7v#

[SydneyRover]

Don't worry there will be food on the shelves, it will just cost more that's all.

''Walk into any British supermarket and you will be surrounded by European products, from Italian cheeses to French wines. Around 30% of all food consumed in the UK is imported from the EU, but for some foods, such as spinach and olives, the EU is practically the UK’s sole supplier.

With Boris Johnson claiming he will take Britain out of the EU by 31 October “do or die”, the UK’s reliance on EU food is a major risk. In the event of a no-deal Brexit, the UK would be obliged under World Trade Organization rules to impose average food import tariffs of 22% and conduct product inspections, leading to delays and shortening the shelf-life of products.

Despite Brexiters’ assurances of tariffless trade, a House of Lords inquiry concluded: “… in either a ‘deal’ or ‘no-deal’ scenario, Brexit will result in some additional border checks and documentation requirements for food imported from the EU to the UK. These will increase the time it takes for food to reach shop shelves and result in additional costs.”

In 2016 more than £30.3bn of Britain’s food imports and £12.3bn of its food exports were with the EU, totalling almost £1,300 of trade every second and highlighting the scale of economic disruption on both sides if the UK crashes out without a deal''

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2019/aug/13/how-a-no-deal-brexit-threatens-your-weekly-food-shop

[bobjimwilly]

this whole f**king situation is f**king ridiculous. no tangible benefits to anyone other than millionaires with money saved offshore, and no-one on here, in the media, in parliament, can say with any certainty britain will prosper outside the EU! Pretty much all industry experts and economists say things will be bad or f**king terrible, the supermarkets have all guaranteed there will be prise rises, and the working class will be demonstrably worse off over the next 5 to 10 years.

W...T....F

[SydneyRover]

Exactly wtf