Brexit deal

[Bentley Bullet]

IDM. I asked BJW a question. What am I twisting or distorting?

[Glyn_Wigley]

BJW didn't say the result of a referendum isn't democratic, he was saying the way that particular referendum was conducted wasn't democratic and in his eyes invalidates the result. But as usual you twisted and distorted what he was saying so you could ignore it.

[IDM]

IDM. I asked BJW a question. What am I twisting or distorting?

Read BJW’s post again carefully, then look at yours..

Nowhere did BJW mention the referendum result, nor disrespecting democracy, yet you used that argument to respond and to pose your question..

[Bentley Bullet]

BJW was responding to my comment about the referendum result, so I assume that is what he is referring to. I never said he disrespected democracy, I asked him what the consequences of disrespecting the vote by ignoring it would be.

[Not Now Kato]

In response to your other points.

1) Jesus wept...

2) Yes. They. Did. The economic experts predicted a sharp devaluation, a spike in inflation, falling real wages as a result, a sharp reduction in foreign investment, an ongoing productivity slump and a sharp economic slowdown. Every one of those things happened. They were predicted to happen not because of uncertainty, but because of the high likelihood that ANY form of Brexit would lead to a weaker economic future. The only uncertainty is whether it is going to be bad or very bad. If there was a likely upside, there would be many companies who would be  investing heavily on the chance of making a killing by getting in ahead of the pack.

3) Those predictions were demonstrably correct. And now you're at it again, saying it is due to uncertainty, which you yourself blame if Remainers blocking Brexit. You've also regularly suggested that we've struggled after the Vote because of Remainers' moaning about the outcome instead of knuckling down. What you have never once done is accept that the bad things that happened in 2 were predictable and predicted by straightforward economic analysis.

4) So you flatly contradict your response to 2...

5) What you have constantly done is to refuse to engage with the overwhelming consensus of people who spend their lives analysing these things and have a long track record of being right. You simply dismiss them as being of no importance. And then you make smart arse remarks about other people's supposed bad faith.

No. What I've constantly done is supported democracy. The result of the referendum being carried out far outweighs the financial consequences in terms of importance any day.

BB You do say the daftest things at times, and this is your daftest yet!
 
Do you actually understand what democracy is?

[bobjimwilly]

BJW. It is your democratic right to disagree with the result of a democratic vote, but how long will you have such a democratic right if we do away with democracy by not honouring them?

We aren't doing away with democracy though. The referendum wasn't legally binding; so legally it was just there to gauge public opinion. If you as a constituent then feel your representative (MP) in parliament isn't doing their job and/or aren't representing you, you don't vote for them in the next election. THAT is a parliamentary democracy, which isn't being damaged by Brexit at all.
The suggestion that parliament ignoring a non-binding referendum means democracy is dying is very naive / garbage.

[Bentley Bullet]

I think so NNK. In fear of being daft again, I'll keep my idea of it to myself for now. Perhaps a properly educated bloke like you can offer the correct definition?

[Bentley Bullet]

BJW. It is your democratic right to disagree with the result of a democratic vote, but how long will you have such a democratic right if we do away with democracy by not honouring them?

We aren't doing away with democracy though. The referendum wasn't legally binding; so legally it was just there to gauge public opinion. If you as a constituent then feel your representative (MP) in parliament isn't doing their job and/or aren't representing you, you don't vote for them in the next election. THAT is a parliamentary democracy, which isn't being damaged by Brexit at all.
The suggestion that parliament ignoring a non-binding referendum means democracy is dying is very naive / garbage.

In that case, David Cameron is a liar then.

If you think there won't be repercussions on a major scale if the result isn't carried out I reckon you are the one being very naive.

[IDM]

Wasn’t BJW’s initial point about the effect of the referendum vs the economy.?? Not about the result being carried out or not.?

[Bentley Bullet]

Tell you what IDM, ask BJW himself!

[wilts rover]

The David Cameron who has been accused of running a campaign dubbed Project Fear and who said he would stay on as PM whatever the referendum result - and then resigned the day after loosing. That David Cameron you think might be a liar?

[Not Now Kato]

I think so NNK. In fear of being daft again, I'll keep my idea of it to myself for now. Perhaps a properly educated bloke like you can offer the correct definition?

I think Abraham Lincoln summed it up rather well in his Gettysburg Address
 

government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth

It is that third part 'for the people' that is vitally important, that is - any decision taken should be in the interests of the people as a whole.  Now, can you tell me why you think making the majority of the people in the UK less well off whilst also limiting their ability to live and work anywhere in the EU is in their interests?
 
Oh, and I'd honestly be interested in your idea of what 'democracy' is.

[IDM]

Tell you what IDM, ask BJW himself!

No need, I understood it in the first place.. you either didn’t, or are determined to take the argument down your own track..

Look BB, I have no personal gripe with you and I have no issue with the referendum result itself.  Neither do I care much for party politics.

What I do want to see, is an outcome that is best for the country as a whole.. if that means Brexit, then let’s do it properly even if it takes longer.. if it can’t be done, then the public needs to be asked if it really wants no deal..

No twisting, no blame, no politicking..

[Bentley Bullet]

The David Cameron who has been accused of running a campaign dubbed Project Fear and who said he would stay on as PM whatever the referendum result - and then resigned the day after loosing. That David Cameron you think might be a liar?

That's the one!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Fascinating int it?

Calling for a vote on a specific and clear question is an affront to democracy.

Having a vote where no-one really knew what the question was, the winning side broke the law on multiple points, then the winners said, "Nothing to do with the people any more, WE will decide what the vote meant" is such an ideal democratic process that it must never be challenged, even if that means our grandkids inherit a much poorer country.

Strange days we live in.

[Bentley Bullet]

Tell you what IDM, ask BJW himself!

No need, I understood it in the first place.. you either didn’t, or are determined to take the argument down your own track..

Look BB, I have no personal gripe with you and I have no issue with the referendum result itself.  Neither do I care much for party politics.

What I do want to see, is an outcome that is best for the country as a whole.. if that means Brexit, then let’s do it properly even if it takes longer.. if it can’t be done, then the public needs to be asked if it really wants no deal..

No twisting, no blame, no politicking..

IDM. I've said countless times that my opinion counts for nothing in the scheme of things. It's never been a case of convincing me, it's all about convincing other far more determined people who might insist on democracy being carried out or face the consequences.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm sure it's unintended, but that sounds very much like you're making a case for violent response there BB.

If I'm wrong, I'm sure you'd want to correct me clearly and unambiguously.

[Bentley Bullet]

Only you would think of that BST. When Enoch gave his Rivers of Blood speech I doubt anybody thought he was condoning it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Interesting response.

Powell's speech did have the effect of encouraging violence whether he meant that or not. He could have chosen to explicitly clarify what his actual position was. And he chose never to do that. Which is, well, irresponsible at best.

[Not Now Kato]

I think so NNK. In fear of being daft again, I'll keep my idea of it to myself for now. Perhaps a properly educated bloke like you can offer the correct definition?

I think Abraham Lincoln summed it up rather well in his Gettysburg Address
 

government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth

It is that third part 'for the people' that is vitally important, that is - any decision taken should be in the interests of the people as a whole.  Now, can you tell me why you think making the majority of the people in the UK less well off whilst also limiting their ability to live and work anywhere in the EU is in their interests?
 
Oh, and I'd honestly be interested in your idea of what 'democracy' is.

Cat got your tongue BB?

[Bentley Bullet]

Interesting response.

Powell's speech did have the effect of encouraging violence whether he meant that or not. He could have chosen to explicitly clarify what his actual position was. And he chose never to do that. Which is, well, irresponsible at best.

Do you honestly believe that people with the inclination to such as even think that Powell would condone violence would have believed him anyway?

Likewise, if you believe that I would condone violence what would be the point in denying it? Would you believe me?

[Bentley Bullet]

I think so NNK. In fear of being daft again, I'll keep my idea of it to myself for now. Perhaps a properly educated bloke like you can offer the correct definition?

I think Abraham Lincoln summed it up rather well in his Gettysburg Address
 

government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth

It is that third part 'for the people' that is vitally important, that is - any decision taken should be in the interests of the people as a whole.  Now, can you tell me why you think making the majority of the people in the UK less well off whilst also limiting their ability to live and work anywhere in the EU is in their interests?
 
Oh, and I'd honestly be interested in your idea of what 'democracy' is.

Cat got your tongue BB?

Why don't you ask the majority of the people who voted to leave?  I'm sure they wouldn't agree with your theory of doom and gloom. They'd just call you a whinging bad loser who believes in democracy as long as you get your own way.
It is because of people like you why I would now change my vote to leave. I just don't want to be on your side!

[Not Now Kato]

I think so NNK. In fear of being daft again, I'll keep my idea of it to myself for now. Perhaps a properly educated bloke like you can offer the correct definition?

I think Abraham Lincoln summed it up rather well in his Gettysburg Address
 

government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth

It is that third part 'for the people' that is vitally important, that is - any decision taken should be in the interests of the people as a whole.  Now, can you tell me why you think making the majority of the people in the UK less well off whilst also limiting their ability to live and work anywhere in the EU is in their interests?
 
Oh, and I'd honestly be interested in your idea of what 'democracy' is.

Cat got your tongue BB?

Why don't you ask the majority of the people who voted to leave?  I'm sure they wouldn't agree with your theory of doom and gloom. They'd just call you a whinging bad loser who believes in democracy as long as you get your own way.
It is because of people like you why I would now change my vote to leave. I just don't want to be on your side!

Obfuscation as usual from you BB.  You act like a WUM with your posts, and it's quite obvious you deliberately avoid answering simple questions - says everything about you BB, sadly.
 
But go on, tell us what you think democracy is; and while you're at it tell us why you think your idea of democracy is worth making us all poorer - but of course, you can't; so you'll obfuscate some more!

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB
I would believe you. Of course I would. I've no reason whatsoever to assume you'd be lying.

It's when you post stuff that is very easy to read either way that I struggle to figure out what you mean, and consequently I might reach the wrong honest conclusion.

[Bentley Bullet]

If you find my view unclear it says more about you than it does me.

Time and time and time again I've explained my view. I'll explain it one last time.

I voted to remain.
Leave won, so as far as I was concerned we were all leavers.
Some of the remain voters kicked up such a stink about losing that they became known as Remoaners.
I no longer wanted to be part of that lot and vowed to vote Leave if we were forced to have another referendum.

To me, democracy is majority rule. If the majority rules on a vote, that vote should be carried out. if that vote is overruled before it has been implemented, it is not democracy.

[Bentley Bullet]

BB
I would believe you. Of course I would. I've no reason whatsoever to assume you'd be lying.

It's when you post stuff that is very easy to read either way that I struggle to figure out what you mean, and consequently I might reach the wrong honest conclusion.

That says more about the state of your mind than mine.

[Not Now Kato]

If you find my view unclear it says more about you than it does me.

Time and time and time again I've explained my view. I'll explain it one last time.

I voted to remain.
Leave won, so as far as I was concerned we were all leavers.
Some of the remain voters kicked up such a stink about losing that they became known as Remoaners.
I no longer wanted to be part of that lot and vowed to vote Leave if we were forced to have another referendum.

To me, democracy is majority rule. If the majority rules on a vote, that vote should be carried out. if that vote is overruled before it has been implemented, it is not democracy.

And with this one statement you show that you haven't got the first clue as to what 'democracy' actually means!

[BillyStubbsTears]

I get all that BB.

But none of that explains what you meant by "it's all about convincing other far more determined people who might insist on democracy being carried out or face the consequences."

But given our slap from the Admin last night, if you don't want to talk about that, I'm not going to push it.

[Bentley Bullet]

I mean it's not about convincing me that not leaving the EU would be democratic. I doubt I'd ever be convinced of that. The difference is it doesn't really matter a fig what I think because I wouldn't break the law by rioting or whatever because of it. I do believe, however, that there are plenty of people who would. That,I believe would be the consequence of not leaving the EU.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And you would unreservedly condemn that?