Brexit deal

[Copps is Magic]

He's saying the UK including NI will leave the CU, but there'll be no need for any checks of stuff going across the border.

Name ANY border between two different regulatory authorities, anywhere in the world, where there are no checks.

That's not, as I interpret it, what he is saying. He's admitting all the usual checks you would expect will need to happen, but they wouldn't happen at the physical border. Its a virtual border, spread over many different locations. Interestingly, small businesses are exempt from any border checks. How they work that I don't know. As an Irish MEP I heard an interview from said, the devil is really in the detail. If this is what they are going to suggest, they need a detailed plan of what is actually means in reality. Otherwise, its just a return to the 'technology solves everything' line.

Then.... there is the issue that Nothern Ireland will kind of follow some of the EU regulatory framework, kind of not. Necessitating the need for another half-baked border across the Irish Sea.

[bobbymax]

I know people in Ireland, there are very genuine fears that Johnson's plans would royally cock up the Good Friday Agreement and bring a return to The Troubles. So much for the Tories and the Ulster Unionists being all for the Union!
Incidentally, I think it's all bullshit, Johnson has no intention of brokering any deal because that would mean all of his cronies wouldn't get rewarded for shorting the pound. He's a charlatan and any supposed talks of all been a sham designed to put the blame on the EU and increase his standing among the nutty neo-fascists that this country has started breeding. I'm ashamed to be British right now!.

[IDM]

He's saying the UK including NI will leave the CU, but there'll be no need for any checks of stuff going across the border.

Name ANY border between two different regulatory authorities, anywhere in the world, where there are no checks.

That's not, as I interpret it, what he is saying. He's admitting all the usual checks you would expect will need to happen, but they wouldn't happen at the physical border. Its a virtual border, spread over many different locations. Interestingly, small businesses are exempt from any border checks. How they work that I don't know. As an Irish MEP I heard an interview from said, the devil is really in the detail. If this is what they are going to suggest, they need a detailed plan of what is actually means in reality. Otherwise, its just a return to the 'technology solves everything' line.

Then.... there is the issue that Nothern Ireland will kind of follow some of the EU regulatory framework, kind of not. Necessitating the need for another half-baked border across the Irish Sea.

In other words, it’s total b*llocks..

[red w(h)ine]

Yeah but I asked what happens if the EU won’t give another extension.

If Boris asks for the extension, he's complied with the Benn Act, Parliament cant force the EU to give one. If MPs want to stop No Deal in those circumstances they'll have to do something else. It'd probably force them to bang their heads together and work something out so they can introduce a VONC with the certainty of there being a replacement (albeit temporary) Government that commands a majority and gets the reins out of Boris's and Cummings' hands.

Thanks for that explanation.
However, what you say is all well and good but.........we have no guarantee that whatever the interim government came up with, that the EU would accept it.
We also don’t know whether we would be allowed a further extension.
Genuinely, what happens then?

We could revoke Article 50 and stay in (LibDem policy)

[Donnywolf]

Ive given up (again) commenting on EU conjecture but just wanted to say .... great name !

[Copps is Magic]

He's saying the UK including NI will leave the CU, but there'll be no need for any checks of stuff going across the border.

Name ANY border between two different regulatory authorities, anywhere in the world, where there are no checks.

That's not, as I interpret it, what he is saying. He's admitting all the usual checks you would expect will need to happen, but they wouldn't happen at the physical border. Its a virtual border, spread over many different locations. Interestingly, small businesses are exempt from any border checks. How they work that I don't know. As an Irish MEP I heard an interview from said, the devil is really in the detail. If this is what they are going to suggest, they need a detailed plan of what is actually means in reality. Otherwise, its just a return to the 'technology solves everything' line.

Then.... there is the issue that Nothern Ireland will kind of follow some of the EU regulatory framework, kind of not. Necessitating the need for another half-baked border across the Irish Sea.

In other words, it’s total b*llocks..

There isn't enough detail to pass judgement. (Thus it can easily be accused of political strategising. I am sure there is a political term for that).

The backstop was basically a legal agreement that there would never be a "hard" border, first by staying in the customers union, and then hoping to god they agreed a (broad) free trade deal with the EU that would eradicate the need for a border anyway.

This proposal basically says there won't be a hard border because we've invented two soft borders with no firm details about what those soft borders will look like. NI with half stay in the customs union, the rest of the UK will leave.

This, of course, does not magic itself up after we agree to leave. It takes time, there will need to be interim period, concrete policies. Without that its nothing.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Coops.

But he's also saying that we have the unilateral right to pull out of any agreement after 4 years (or any 4 year period thereafter) if Stormont chooses to do so.

THAT is the bit I was meaning, whereby there would be a border but we would or could ignore it.

That can never be acceptable to the EU. It would mean free and unchecked movement of goods from our jurisdiction into the CU and SM. That's a ridiculous thing to expect the EU to accept. It would make the NI/Ire border a porous entrepôt to undermine the standards that the rest of the EU sign up to.

Look at this a serious proposal with any prospect of being implemented and it's utter nonsense.

Look at this position as having the strategic aim of making it easier to blame EU intransigence for the inevitable collapse of any deal and it's easy to understand.

[IDM]

I stand by my previous statement.!

[Copps is Magic]

BST. It doesn't give Northern Ireland an option to pull out of anything. There will always be at least one border (most likely always two). It gives NI the choice of where the 'hardness' of that border lies (a choice which they apparently will renew every 4 years). That is, whether they want to align more with EU or UK regulations.

Some nutters may argue this is more ''democratic" (for NI), but this critically ignores the real world potentially politically/socially damaging consequences of a perpetual debate in NI of whether they want to align wit the EU (i.e. Ireland) or UK.

[SydneyRover]

bst: ''But he's also saying that we have the unilateral right to pull out of any agreement after 4 years (or any 4 year period thereafter) if Stormont chooses to do so''

The EU have already kicked this into touch as it doesn't give them an ongoing guarantee of a single market. End of

[scawsby steve]

Yeah but I asked what happens if the EU won’t give another extension.

If Boris asks for the extension, he's complied with the Benn Act, Parliament cant force the EU to give one. If MPs want to stop No Deal in those circumstances they'll have to do something else. It'd probably force them to bang their heads together and work something out so they can introduce a VONC with the certainty of there being a replacement (albeit temporary) Government that commands a majority and gets the reins out of Boris's and Cummings' hands.

Thanks for that explanation.
However, what you say is all well and good but.........we have no guarantee that whatever the interim government came up with, that the EU would accept it.
We also don’t know whether we would be allowed a further extension.
Genuinely, what happens then?

We could revoke Article 50 and stay in (LibDem policy)

Dream on. The only thing that Leavers and Remainers have agreed upon on this forum recently is what a pathetic shambles the Lib Dems are.

[wilts rover]

BST. It doesn't give Northern Ireland an option to pull out of anything. There will always be at least one border (most likely always two). It gives NI the choice of where the 'hardness' of that border lies (a choice which they apparently will renew every 4 years). That is, whether they want to align more with EU or UK regulations.

Some nutters may argue this is more ''democratic" (for NI), but this critically ignores the real world potentially politically/socially damaging consequences of a perpetual debate in NI of whether they want to align wit the EU (i.e. Ireland) or UK.

The critical part of this is the Stormont Assembly veto. The Assembly is set up in such a way that any large party has a veto over contentious decision - so in practice this gives the DUP a veto over trading rules and regulations on the island of Ireland every 4 years!

How is that going to go down in Ireland and Northern Ireland do you think?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Assembly

Its not a real proposal. Or if it is then anyone associated with it should never work in government again.

[selby]

Bobbymax, don't worry, a couple of days later it will be the Euro's turn to be shorted.

[red w(h)ine]

Yeah but I asked what happens if the EU won’t give another extension.

If Boris asks for the extension, he's complied with the Benn Act, Parliament cant force the EU to give one. If MPs want to stop No Deal in those circumstances they'll have to do something else. It'd probably force them to bang their heads together and work something out so they can introduce a VONC with the certainty of there being a replacement (albeit temporary) Government that commands a majority and gets the reins out of Boris's and Cummings' hands.

Thanks for that explanation.
However, what you say is all well and good but.........we have no guarantee that whatever the interim government came up with, that the EU would accept it.
We also don’t know whether we would be allowed a further extension.
Genuinely, what happens then?

We could revoke Article 50 and stay in (LibDem policy)

Dream on. The only thing that Leavers and Remainers have agreed upon on this forum recently is what a pathetic shambles the Lib Dems are.

I wasn't suggesting that we SHOULD do it. It was just that some posters had asked what COULD be done

[scawsby steve]

Yeah but I asked what happens if the EU won’t give another extension.

If Boris asks for the extension, he's complied with the Benn Act, Parliament cant force the EU to give one. If MPs want to stop No Deal in those circumstances they'll have to do something else. It'd probably force them to bang their heads together and work something out so they can introduce a VONC with the certainty of there being a replacement (albeit temporary) Government that commands a majority and gets the reins out of Boris's and Cummings' hands.

Thanks for that explanation.
However, what you say is all well and good but.........we have no guarantee that whatever the interim government came up with, that the EU would accept it.
We also don’t know whether we would be allowed a further extension.
Genuinely, what happens then?

We could revoke Article 50 and stay in (LibDem policy)

Dream on. The only thing that Leavers and Remainers have agreed upon on this forum recently is what a pathetic shambles the Lib Dems are.

I wasn't suggesting that we SHOULD do it. It was just that some posters had asked what COULD be done

The simple answer to that is that nothing can be done. This sh*tshow will just go on for years and years.

[Colemans Left Hook]

Out of interest on october 31 st (midnight 30th) will the European time be exactly the same as British Time ?  assume it must be ?

[red w(h)ine]

Yeah but I asked what happens if the EU won’t give another extension.

If Boris asks for the extension, he's complied with the Benn Act, Parliament cant force the EU to give one. If MPs want to stop No Deal in those circumstances they'll have to do something else. It'd probably force them to bang their heads together and work something out so they can introduce a VONC with the certainty of there being a replacement (albeit temporary) Government that commands a majority and gets the reins out of Boris's and Cummings' hands.

Thanks for that explanation.
However, what you say is all well and good but.........we have no guarantee that whatever the interim government came up with, that the EU would accept it.
We also don’t know whether we would be allowed a further extension.
Genuinely, what happens then?

We could revoke Article 50 and stay in (LibDem policy)

Dream on. The only thing that Leavers and Remainers have agreed upon on this forum recently is what a pathetic shambles the Lib Dems are.

I wasn't suggesting that we SHOULD do it. It was just that some posters had asked what COULD be done

The simple answer to that is that nothing can be done. This sh*tshow will just go on for years and years.

But the simple answer isn't the correct one

[SydneyRover]

In the interests of sanity and getting it done, the only answer is No-brexit, signed sealed and delivered, lets do it guys.

[DonnyOsmond]

In the interests of sanity and getting it done, the only answer is No-brexit, signed sealed and delivered, lets do it guys.

If we all push together we can make a success out of it!

[drfchound]

Yeah but I asked what happens if the EU won’t give another extension.

If Boris asks for the extension, he's complied with the Benn Act, Parliament cant force the EU to give one. If MPs want to stop No Deal in those circumstances they'll have to do something else. It'd probably force them to bang their heads together and work something out so they can introduce a VONC with the certainty of there being a replacement (albeit temporary) Government that commands a majority and gets the reins out of Boris's and Cummings' hands.

Thanks for that explanation.
However, what you say is all well and good but.........we have no guarantee that whatever the interim government came up with, that the EU would accept it.
We also don’t know whether we would be allowed a further extension.
Genuinely, what happens then?

We could revoke Article 50 and stay in (LibDem policy)

Dream on. The only thing that Leavers and Remainers have agreed upon on this forum recently is what a pathetic shambles the Lib Dems are.

I wasn't suggesting that we SHOULD do it. It was just that some posters had asked what COULD be done

The simple answer to that is that nothing can be done. This sh*tshow will just go on for years and years.

But the simple answer isn't the correct one

Isn’t it?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Out of interest on october 31 st (midnight 30th) will the European time be exactly the same as British Time ?  assume it must be ?

Nope.

Why do you think we remember the Armistice at 11am?

[red w(h)ine]

Yeah but I asked what happens if the EU won’t give another extension.

If Boris asks for the extension, he's complied with the Benn Act, Parliament cant force the EU to give one. If MPs want to stop No Deal in those circumstances they'll have to do something else. It'd probably force them to bang their heads together and work something out so they can introduce a VONC with the certainty of there being a replacement (albeit temporary) Government that commands a majority and gets the reins out of Boris's and Cummings' hands.

Thanks for that explanation.
However, what you say is all well and good but.........we have no guarantee that whatever the interim government came up with, that the EU would accept it.
We also don’t know whether we would be allowed a further extension.
Genuinely, what happens then?

We could revoke Article 50 and stay in (LibDem policy)

Dream on. The only thing that Leavers and Remainers have agreed upon on this forum recently is what a pathetic shambles the Lib Dems are.

I wasn't suggesting that we SHOULD do it. It was just that some posters had asked what COULD be done

The simple answer to that is that nothing can be done. This sh*tshow will just go on for years and years.

But the simple answer isn't the correct one

Isn’t it?

"The simple answer to that is that nothing can be done" isn't correct

[drfchound]

Yeah but I asked what happens if the EU won’t give another extension.

If Boris asks for the extension, he's complied with the Benn Act, Parliament cant force the EU to give one. If MPs want to stop No Deal in those circumstances they'll have to do something else. It'd probably force them to bang their heads together and work something out so they can introduce a VONC with the certainty of there being a replacement (albeit temporary) Government that commands a majority and gets the reins out of Boris's and Cummings' hands.

Thanks for that explanation.
However, what you say is all well and good but.........we have no guarantee that whatever the interim government came up with, that the EU would accept it.
We also don’t know whether we would be allowed a further extension.
Genuinely, what happens then?

We could revoke Article 50 and stay in (LibDem policy)

Dream on. The only thing that Leavers and Remainers have agreed upon on this forum recently is what a pathetic shambles the Lib Dems are.

I wasn't suggesting that we SHOULD do it. It was just that some posters had asked what COULD be done

The simple answer to that is that nothing can be done. This sh*tshow will just go on for years and years.

But the simple answer isn't the correct one

Isn’t it?

"The simple answer to that is that nothing can be done" isn't correct

Ah, I see what you are getting at.

[scawsby steve]

In the interests of sanity and getting it done, the only answer is No-brexit, signed sealed and delivered, lets do it guys.

And how on Earth can anyone achieve that?

[SydneyRover]

Dead simple Steve it's time the adults told our representatives that we're fed up with chaos, fed up with the UK sinking into the fiscal swamp, fed up with the tories rule after going on 10 wasted years of mayhem and tell them we want to kick farage and brexit into touch. We are the employers they work for us we pay them, maybe it's time for everyone to get out on the streets.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Fed up with the long term economic mismanagement which, combined with Brexit, is tipping us into recession by the look of it an all.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKBN1WI0QC

[scawsby steve]

Dead simple Steve it's time the adults told our representatives that we're fed up with chaos, fed up with the UK sinking into the fiscal swamp, fed up with the tories rule after going on 10 wasted years of mayhem and tell them we want to kick farage and brexit into touch. We are the employers they work for us we pay them, maybe it's time for everyone to get out on the streets.

Dead right Sydney, they do work for us, 17.4 million of us. As regards kicking Farage and Brexit into touch, you'll get your chance to do that in the voting booths; just as soon as your people stop sh*tting their pants and agree to a GE.

[BillyStubbsTears]

SS

Everyone wants a General Election.

No-one is shitting themselves.

The key thing is first that we prevent the idiots in charge from crashing us out with a No Deal Brexit that no-one even countenanced in 2016.

Once that's secured, there'll be an election.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Perfect clarity from Leo Varadker today.

He laid out, simply and clearly that there have only ever been 5 possible ways that a hard border could be avoided in Ireland.

1) Ireland rejoins the UK
2) NI joins Ireland
3) The UK stays in the EU
4) The UK stays in the Customs Union
5) The Backstop is implemented until such time as the technological solution that the Brexiters have shouted for is found and implemented.

1 and 2 are obviously non-starters,at least for the present.

3 was booted out by May.

4 is clearly not acceptable to the Brexiters.

5 has been set up as a demon by Johnson to win him the keys to No10.

So that's where we are. For one reason or another, every route to avoiding a border in Ireland has been blocked.

That simple, undeniable objective truth.

There's no need to dress it up any other way. And since the EU has never once shown any sign of backing down in its position that if a border is reintroduced in Ireland, we are not getting a deal, we now have two choices.

a) No Deal.
b) A new Govt or Ref that would implement 3 or 4.

It's really that simple. There's no other discussion to be had.

[albie]

The possibility of a border poll (option 2 above) under the GFA should not be disregarded.

I agree it will not impact the current discussion, but it may come into play as a consequence of the border controls once they are in place.

It is clear the Johnson plan will be rejected by the EU...as it was intended to be.
Reading the next move is the tricky bit.