Brexit deal

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Really DO? You think they'll do that?  Right now they'll get slaughtered in an election.  If the deal passes tomorrow big if, what does their brexit policy become?

[Metalmicky]

Really DO? You think they'll do that?  Right now they'll get slaughtered in an election.  If the deal passes tomorrow big if, what does their brexit policy become?

We need policies................... fook?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Back to my old issue about there being no such things as "Leave" and therefore the 2016 vote being illegitimate.

Johnson is today saying "This is a great Brexit deal which takes back control."

Sammy Wilson of the DUP and Farage have both said this is not Brexit.

That kind of nails what I e been saying for 3 years. The "Leave" vote wasn't a vote for a specific thing. It was an umbrella of many different, mutually incompatible things.

You CANNOT assume that anyone who voted for Leave would accept ANY form of Leave. That's obvious.

What's happened since 2016 is various right wing MPs insisting that the Leave vote meant support for their specific form of Leave. An unclear vote has been hijacked.

So there is only one possible democratic solution. Ref2 with a choice between Remain and a SPECIFIC  form of Leave.

[Donnywolf]

Back to my old issue about there being no such things as "Leave" and therefore the 2016 vote being illegitimate.


You CANNOT assume that anyone who voted for Leave would accept ANY form of Leave. That's obvious.

So there is only one possible democratic solution. Ref2 with a choice between Remain and a SPECIFIC  form of Leave.

That is what should be done but probably wont be.

Dominic Grive has spoken a lot of sense throughout this and his stance is just that

He will vote for Johnsons deal as long as there is a chance for a Public confirmation to accept of endorse it and he thinks many many more MPs would do

He said the Vote should be held with these questions

a THE DEAL
b NO DEAL
c  REMAIN

However he conceded that a lot of people would not mind if NO DEAL was omitted

It would be fairer (he said) because its nearly 4 years since the original Referendum was held and so much has been learned - many Voters might have changed their minds (both ways) many Voters have -well- died- and over 2 million people have become eligible to Vote now and (he said) they were on the whole Remainers

Got to go shopping calls !

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Erm what's the form of remain, the one we have now or the remain actually proposed in the first referendum (which was remain with changes)?

How many options do you go with?

[Metalmicky]

I saw this earlier - made me slightly mad.....

#Labour MP Chris Bryant has stated MP's should be given financial help to pay for childcare because they have to attend the House of Commons on a Saturday.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I saw this earlier - made me slightly mad.....

#Labour MP Chris Bryant has stated MP's should be given financial help to pay for childcare because they have to attend the House of Commons on a Saturday.

They should be given exactly the same state childcare help as anyone else who needs it.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I saw this earlier - made me slightly mad.....

#Labour MP Chris Bryant has stated MP's should be given financial help to pay for childcare because they have to attend the House of Commons on a Saturday.

They should be given exactly the same state childcare help as anyone else who needs it.

Bugger all then....

This afternoon Varadkar and Macron have stated between them their opposition to extension that should focus minds.  But, they havent said they'll say no. The risk is there though.

One irony I like is that SNP have said it would be England taking Scotland out of the EU against their will.  The irony is if the vote does lose by a small amount tomorrow it would be Scottish and NI MP's keeping England in the EU against their will.  Somewhat ironic for the Tories that.

[selby]

  Stick or twist time, the pressure as I thought coming from the EU now, the big hitters joining the game.
   A big choice trust Boris, or will they really not extend the date? that is the question, would you trust Macron?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Brilliant twitter comment.

"Boris Johnson's deal requires a lot of people to trust him. Which is difficult, as many of them have actually met him..."

[Donnywolf]

I saw this earlier - made me slightly mad.....

#Labour MP Chris Bryant has stated MP's should be given financial help to pay for childcare because they have to attend the House of Commons on a Saturday.

I also saw a Labour MP say when interviewed "I will vote for a Deal just to honour the Referendum"

But said the interviewer "your constituency voted 70%+ to REMAIN - so how do you reconcile that?" I am not their advocate he said and I BELIEVE to vote for this deal will put an end to this once and for all and I do it for the good of all the Country

Ironic as lots of us on here are represented by Ms Flint who will (has) voted for the Deal because she wants to put the Country first and will vote to honour the Referendum result because she has a Constituency which voted to Leave

Can someone put them in a small room to sort it out

[SydneyRover]

Confirming what others have said:

''How much of Johnson's 'great new deal' is actually new?

Guardian analysis shows less than 5% of the original deal has been renegotiated. What has been removed from May’s deal and what has replaced it?''

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2019/oct/18/how-much-johnson-great-new-deal-actually-new

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sarah Champion is a disgrace.

She is voting for the Deal, because she says that EU have made it clear that there will be no further extension of A50. So it's a case of Deal or No Deal.

Absolute, utter, 100% pure b*llocks. Lying through her teeth to justify betraying Labour supporters. She's a disgrace to politics.

I could accept her using an intelligent argument about why she chose to vote for the deal as opposed to any other outcome. But she's not. She's lying about what the EU has said and she's using that to mislead her constituents.

[albie]

Some Labour MP's seem to think that propping up Johnson is justified by votes cast in an advisory referendum over 3 years ago.

That means:
privatisation of the NHS
abolition of workers rights
removal of environmental safeguards
more off shore banking frauds
deregulation across the economy

etc, etc.

So that is what they will be enabling.....completely against the core values of the Labour Party!

Anyway, does anyone fancy a drop of Letwin;
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-parliaments-50098128

Cometh the hour!

[wilts rover]

Brilliant twitter comment.

"Boris Johnson's deal requires a lot of people to trust him. Which is difficult, as many of them have actually met him..."

I am sure I read that on here yesterday...

https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=268078.msg914137#msg914137

[albie]

Good article on the "Great British Asset Striptease" which Johnson and Co are planning to unleash;
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/britain-after-brexit-welcome-vulture-restaurant/

Just so you know, like!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Brilliant twitter comment.

"Boris Johnson's deal requires a lot of people to trust him. Which is difficult, as many of them have actually met him..."

I am sure I read that on here yesterday...

https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=268078.msg914137#msg914137

So you did.

[wilts rover]

Really DO? You think they'll do that?  Right now they'll get slaughtered in an election.  If the deal passes tomorrow big if, what does their brexit policy become?

If the Letwin ammendment passes tomorrow and then Labour vote for the deal as ammended - what then does Johnson's message on Labour & Brexit become?

Or in an even more bizarre scenario - if the deal gets amended and Labour vote for it and the Tories against - what then does Johnson's message on Labour & Brexit become?

[BillyStubbsTears]

And just to emphasise what a mendacious t**t Champion is, here's a prominent far right Tory letting the cat out the bag.

https://mobile.twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1185166530490916872

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Really DO? You think they'll do that?  Right now they'll get slaughtered in an election.  If the deal passes tomorrow big if, what does their brexit policy become?

If the Letwin ammendment passes tomorrow and then Labour vote for the deal as ammended - what then does Johnson's message on Labour & Brexit become?

Or in an even more bizarre scenario - if the deal gets amended and Labour vote for it and the Tories against - what then does Johnson's message on Labour & Brexit become?

Fairly simple, pass the legislation and get it done?

[bpoolrover]

That would be the default position thou if the talks failed is he not just clarifying that that would be the case and not that we would remain in the eu?

[selby]

  Is that remain with no rebate (probably next year) or stay in with the rebate with the other 27 having a vote on that, so next to no chance. So an extra 50% plus payment on top of what we already pay to be a member.

[SydneyRover]

Interesting bit of research

Why, even in leave constituencies, most Labour support comes from remainers

On the World at One Jacob Rees-Mogg, the leader of the Commons, said he thought Labour MPs in seats that voted leave might want to back the PM’s Brexit deal. He said:

    There are Labour MPs in seats that voted 60, 70% to leave and they will, of their own volition, regardless of anything I could say to them, be thinking about how do they best represent their own voters.

In fact new research from the British Election Study, which studies voting behaviour in considerable detail through an extensive database going back years, suggests that Rees-Mogg is wrong. Even in constituencies that voted leave in 2016 by large majorities, the people voting Labour are predominantly remain supporters, the research found.

Here is an extract from Ed Fieldhouse’s write-up for the British Election Study website. (I have highlighted some of the highlights in bold)

First, while 68% of Labour voters voted to remain in the EU in 2016, what about voters in those seats which voted to Leave the EU? Dividing countries in to leave and remain seats and subdividing by the 2017 winner, the BES data shows that in Labour seats where there was a leave majority, 60% of Labour voters voted to remain in 2016 compared to 76% in remain seats. In other words while unsurprisingly there were more Labour leave voters in leave seats, on average there was still a substantial remain majority. Even in those with a leave vote of greater than 60%, a clear majority (57%) of Labour voters voted remain in 2016.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/oct/18/boris-johnson-launches-frantic-sales-pitch-of-brexit-deal-ahead-of

[SydneyRover]

Surely by now even the most rusted on tory supporters would have to admit the the Benn Act and the Letwin Ammendment were only created because johnson is a despicable character that can't be trusted?

[Donnywolf]

Bizarrely he is a despicable character and would sell anyone up the river for his own ends which is proven already on here and elsewhere ... but there will be enough of "them" that will trust him ... and / or have been bought off with (yet more) empty promises

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Surely by now even the most rusted on tory supporters would have to admit the the Benn Act and the Letwin Ammendment were only created because johnson is a despicable character that can't be trusted?

Aye, Letwin has such a great record at implementing his legislation...

As someone who wants a deal a short delay if that was the true purpose is fine.  But not many leave voters can actually trust mps to get it done either.

I do personally agree with your point though he has made a rod for his own back.  The electorate of course wont just vote based on that.

[Padge_DRFC]

Hope Milliband represents his labour constituents of Doncaster North well today. 72 percent leave.  Big majority voted leave. Big majority voted labour in GE

[selby]

Padge, look at the Askern photo page what his electorate think of Mr Milliband, I think he is on his last legs there.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

No labour candidate in doncaster north will ever lose, ever!

[DonnyOsmond]

Hope Milliband represents his labour constituents of Doncaster North well today. 72 percent leave.  Big majority voted leave. Big majority voted labour in GE

So if they were offered to leave with the shittest deal possible they should accept because Doncaster North voted to leave? They shouldn't reject because it's a bad deal in hopes for something else?