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What is it about Starmer's recent polling that convinces you he has a hope of running the country Billy?I like it that under Corbyn it was the fault of 'the left' that Labour wasn'r polling well.Now under Starmer its' sill the fault of the left they are not polling well.If the right wing of the Labour Party insist on attacking a left-wing leader when he is in power, then attacking and alienating left-wing activists when they have power - maybe you should look somewhere else for the problem when they are not polling well.https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1378993035875393536
Quote from: wilts rover on April 06, 2021, 01:16:30 pmWhat is it about Starmer's recent polling that convinces you he has a hope of running the country Billy?I like it that under Corbyn it was the fault of 'the left' that Labour wasn'r polling well.Now under Starmer its' sill the fault of the left they are not polling well.If the right wing of the Labour Party insist on attacking a left-wing leader when he is in power, then attacking and alienating left-wing activists when they have power - maybe you should look somewhere else for the problem when they are not polling well.https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1378993035875393536Wilts.Perhaps you could address what I said in this thread rather than what I didn't say.I'll repeat it. If Labour plays the game by the Culture War rules, it loses. Regardless of whether it plays socially liberal, socially conservative, or balanced.Labour can only win if it puts a radical economics package forward and moves the agenda onto that topic.That is where Corbyn failed. He had the right economic line, but he was too easy to take on, on the Culture War angle. Starmer and Dodds's economics are nigh on identical to Corbyn's, as they should be because that is economically good for the country, and popular. I simply don't get why the Left doesn't see this, but berates Starmer as a traitor (worse! a Blairite!) for trying to neutralise the Culture War issue. And equally, I don't get what people like Tyke want, insisting on Labour meeting his demands on being anti-minority, without seeing that would alienate the socially liberal Labour supporters.Both sides need to realise that they can win the internal battle, but doing so will lose the external war.
LDR, the notion that people see themselves as working class went out with manufacturing, do you honestly think that the office workers now working from home see themselves as working class? The days when thousands of workers worked in the same factories, members of the same unions, living locally being members of the same sports and social clubs, and basically having the same political views and doctrines has disappeared and the individuals now see themselves as socially above the working class as we knew it. The movement for home workers to have a four day working week, have a much more leisure and not so regimented hours will spread the workforce even wider and in smaller social numbers, where the thoughts of the individual will take precedence over the collective. Non of which helps the traditional Labour Party, who over time will become similar to the Liberal Party and insignificant always attracting the immigrant and socially poorer factions who depend on government benefits but are seen as a burden by many. The current political and economic situation will only widen the difference in the haves and have nots.
I'd call it emphasis.Don't paint yourself as a barricade-manning smash-the-stater.Paint yourself as someone who will do what is necessary for the country. If that happens to be a radical economics package, so be it. The unpleasant part of that for the Left is that it means consciously distancing yourself from the red flag. And that's not the mood music that the couple of hundred thousand people who joined and took over the party 6 years ago want to hear.
So lie about what you want to be elected on?
So is that why the Labour Party manifestos have seemed to promise the impossible in recent elections BST.That is not intended to be bait by the way, just a reasonable question.
Quote from: drfchound on April 06, 2021, 05:08:03 pmSo is that why the Labour Party manifestos have seemed to promise the impossible in recent elections BST.That is not intended to be bait by the way, just a reasonable question.So why has no socialist Labour party won since 74?
Quote from: Ldr on April 06, 2021, 05:09:22 pmQuote from: drfchound on April 06, 2021, 05:08:03 pmSo is that why the Labour Party manifestos have seemed to promise the impossible in recent elections BST.That is not intended to be bait by the way, just a reasonable question.So why has no socialist Labour party won since 74?Entire PhDs have been written on that topic. But the fact that Britain's mass circulation papers are by some way the most virulently right wing in the Western world. It was always going to be difficult for any left of centre party to get a fair hearing when the Mail, Sun and Express were for decades the primary information source of up to 10 million families.
So how much is weakness of presentation v weakness of policy
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on April 06, 2021, 05:32:41 pmQuote from: Ldr on April 06, 2021, 05:09:22 pmQuote from: drfchound on April 06, 2021, 05:08:03 pmSo is that why the Labour Party manifestos have seemed to promise the impossible in recent elections BST.That is not intended to be bait by the way, just a reasonable question.So why has no socialist Labour party won since 74?Entire PhDs have been written on that topic. But the fact that Britain's mass circulation papers are by some way the most virulently right wing in the Western world. It was always going to be difficult for any left of centre party to get a fair hearing when the Mail, Sun and Express were for decades the primary information source of up to 10 million families.True this. Back in the 1980’s I was very active in the Labour Party. No matter how bad Thatcher was for the country, we lost election after election to a Tory government that seemed to be at war with chunks of British society. I recall attending a conference fringe meeting where a Woman dared to suggest that the party should accept that the news media held great influence on voters and that maybe we should ‘play the game’ and work with the press rather than see them as the enemy. She was roundly booed by the party masses and she disappeared into obscurity. However, I like to think that she sowed a seed somewhere. Slowly, the party began to understand that if they wanted to win power they’d have to embrace the media, no matter how much it hurt. Very slowly with John Smith and then Tony Blair, they began to work with the media and press (albeit through gritted teeth) until they were beating the Tories at their own game to the point where even The Sun supported Labour. Whether we like it or not, Labour need to win over the press, who’s natural inclination is right wing overall, before it will win another General Election. Right now there’s a Tory feel good factor due to the success of the vaccine. However, once that passes and we end up seeing who’ll be paying for the cost of Covid-19, that’ll be the time for Labour to take the initiative.
I think the problem right now is labour don't have any policies.
Quote from: Herbert Anchovy on April 06, 2021, 06:08:41 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on April 06, 2021, 05:32:41 pmQuote from: Ldr on April 06, 2021, 05:09:22 pmQuote from: drfchound on April 06, 2021, 05:08:03 pmSo is that why the Labour Party manifestos have seemed to promise the impossible in recent elections BST.That is not intended to be bait by the way, just a reasonable question.So why has no socialist Labour party won since 74?Entire PhDs have been written on that topic. But the fact that Britain's mass circulation papers are by some way the most virulently right wing in the Western world. It was always going to be difficult for any left of centre party to get a fair hearing when the Mail, Sun and Express were for decades the primary information source of up to 10 million families.True this. Back in the 1980’s I was very active in the Labour Party. No matter how bad Thatcher was for the country, we lost election after election to a Tory government that seemed to be at war with chunks of British society. I recall attending a conference fringe meeting where a Woman dared to suggest that the party should accept that the news media held great influence on voters and that maybe we should ‘play the game’ and work with the press rather than see them as the enemy. She was roundly booed by the party masses and she disappeared into obscurity. However, I like to think that she sowed a seed somewhere. Slowly, the party began to understand that if they wanted to win power they’d have to embrace the media, no matter how much it hurt. Very slowly with John Smith and then Tony Blair, they began to work with the media and press (albeit through gritted teeth) until they were beating the Tories at their own game to the point where even The Sun supported Labour. Whether we like it or not, Labour need to win over the press, who’s natural inclination is right wing overall, before it will win another General Election. Right now there’s a Tory feel good factor due to the success of the vaccine. However, once that passes and we end up seeing who’ll be paying for the cost of Covid-19, that’ll be the time for Labour to take the initiative.Herbert, i think it is fair to say that anyone with any sense will know that the taxpayer will bear the brunt of the costs for the covid bills.