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Quote from: RedJ on June 23, 2018, 09:26:15 amQuote from: Ldr on June 23, 2018, 08:32:52 amQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on June 22, 2018, 09:23:33 pmQuote from: Ldr on June 22, 2018, 08:56:17 pmYeah but Glyn, unless you are party to the negotiations you know nothing. I doubt you are daft enough to believe the mediaI don't need to know what's happening in the negotiations. If you think it revolves around them, you really don't know anything.My working life of being an International Trade Officer with Customs, of day-to-day working with EC and UK Law regarding Customs procedures, regulations, relief schemes and how the Single Market works means I know exactly what the implications of leaving the Customs Union and the Single Market are - and I also know that nothing that happens in the negotiations that you place so much store upon is going to change those implications. And yet you think your opinion of 'I know feck all about it' is just as valid as my opinion that is backed up by my years of knowledge and experience. If you want to believe that, then fine, live in your own little bubble of 'ignorance means equality'. But I'm not joining you there.You may have more experience in customs related things but are you honestly so far up yourself that you think it makes your opinion more valid than someone who hasn't worked the same path as you. That air of superiority sickens meWell someone whose opinion is backed up by something other than a gut feeling tends to be more valid than someone whose opinion is just that.More informed does not equate to more valid. Basically you are dismissing the opinion of everyone who then forms it differently as less valid which is not the case. Everyones opinion is valid
Quote from: Ldr on June 23, 2018, 08:32:52 amQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on June 22, 2018, 09:23:33 pmQuote from: Ldr on June 22, 2018, 08:56:17 pmYeah but Glyn, unless you are party to the negotiations you know nothing. I doubt you are daft enough to believe the mediaI don't need to know what's happening in the negotiations. If you think it revolves around them, you really don't know anything.My working life of being an International Trade Officer with Customs, of day-to-day working with EC and UK Law regarding Customs procedures, regulations, relief schemes and how the Single Market works means I know exactly what the implications of leaving the Customs Union and the Single Market are - and I also know that nothing that happens in the negotiations that you place so much store upon is going to change those implications. And yet you think your opinion of 'I know feck all about it' is just as valid as my opinion that is backed up by my years of knowledge and experience. If you want to believe that, then fine, live in your own little bubble of 'ignorance means equality'. But I'm not joining you there.You may have more experience in customs related things but are you honestly so far up yourself that you think it makes your opinion more valid than someone who hasn't worked the same path as you. That air of superiority sickens meWell someone whose opinion is backed up by something other than a gut feeling tends to be more valid than someone whose opinion is just that.
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on June 22, 2018, 09:23:33 pmQuote from: Ldr on June 22, 2018, 08:56:17 pmYeah but Glyn, unless you are party to the negotiations you know nothing. I doubt you are daft enough to believe the mediaI don't need to know what's happening in the negotiations. If you think it revolves around them, you really don't know anything.My working life of being an International Trade Officer with Customs, of day-to-day working with EC and UK Law regarding Customs procedures, regulations, relief schemes and how the Single Market works means I know exactly what the implications of leaving the Customs Union and the Single Market are - and I also know that nothing that happens in the negotiations that you place so much store upon is going to change those implications. And yet you think your opinion of 'I know feck all about it' is just as valid as my opinion that is backed up by my years of knowledge and experience. If you want to believe that, then fine, live in your own little bubble of 'ignorance means equality'. But I'm not joining you there.You may have more experience in customs related things but are you honestly so far up yourself that you think it makes your opinion more valid than someone who hasn't worked the same path as you. That air of superiority sickens me
Quote from: Ldr on June 22, 2018, 08:56:17 pmYeah but Glyn, unless you are party to the negotiations you know nothing. I doubt you are daft enough to believe the mediaI don't need to know what's happening in the negotiations. If you think it revolves around them, you really don't know anything.My working life of being an International Trade Officer with Customs, of day-to-day working with EC and UK Law regarding Customs procedures, regulations, relief schemes and how the Single Market works means I know exactly what the implications of leaving the Customs Union and the Single Market are - and I also know that nothing that happens in the negotiations that you place so much store upon is going to change those implications. And yet you think your opinion of 'I know feck all about it' is just as valid as my opinion that is backed up by my years of knowledge and experience. If you want to believe that, then fine, live in your own little bubble of 'ignorance means equality'. But I'm not joining you there.
Yeah but Glyn, unless you are party to the negotiations you know nothing. I doubt you are daft enough to believe the media
LdrHow much have we paid for those bailouts?
Forgive me for not noticing where I mentioned Ireland or Portugal......
Did we loan money to Greece because we were in the EU? Seeing as we lent them slightly less than the USA?
Yep. We made loans to Ireland and Portugal. They were repaid in full with interest.
And the loans by the EIB to Greece glyn? Which as you must well know is owned by the eu member states including the UK......
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on June 20, 2018, 11:08:03 pmNot much anti-Maastricht sentiment in this 1991 poll TRB. https://ems.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/poll.aspx?oItemId=2948Exactly on that basis , the pro- EU vote would have pissed it contrary to all the things you hear I.e. - " Well if we had been allowed a vote on Maastricht ; we would have been long gone out of the EU " . Perhaps on a vote based on lies and exaggerations , Russian money and Cambridge Analytica , AIQ, false electoral funding and expenditure ........they might well have been right.
Not much anti-Maastricht sentiment in this 1991 poll TRB. https://ems.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/poll.aspx?oItemId=2948
So here we are again discussing Brexit, and there are known knowns and unknown knowns...........We are in this position because Cameron didnt do his home work and squibbed by putting a vote to the people instead of thrashing it out with his party and in the parliament and did not expect a yes vote. Cameron has lost all credibility since by resigning and leaving the C-team to clear up the mess. Known.The those taking an active part in the lead up to the vote were not monitored to ensure everything was fair and above board. Known.Widespread cheating regarding the truth in statements and funding of the leave vote where the majority of the corruption has been uncovered. Known.Almost all the news and information from credible souces has painted a scene of bad news for the economy and individuals alike, the individuals most affected are already in the lower socio economic band. KnownThere is no credible outcome known to date where Britain will be able to make good the losses to date and the losses that will be incurred for the foreseeable future. KnownSince the vote the government has been dishonest in part and a absolute shambles in negotiating all the possible outcomes of Brexit. Known.
LdrI appreciate your intention. Please understand that what I am doing is not whinging or blaming. And I fervently agree that what we need to do is make the best of the situation. I want our country to be wealthy, comfortable with itself and mature. My abiding fear is that we’ve set ourselves on a path where we are going to be none of those things by the time my kids are my age. Brexit still does not have to happen in the way that May interpreted it. There is nothing like a Will of the People for the kind of hard Brexit that she is stumbling us into. But it WILL happen if people just shrug their shoulders and say “Let them get in with it.” Last point. You won’t like this but I suggest you read it. And think hard about the points raised. Don’t see it as partisan tub-thumping. See it as mature, intelligent reflection. Allow yourself to be challenged. http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2018/06/two-years-into-brexit-disaster.html?m=1
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on June 23, 2018, 12:05:09 pmLdrHow much have we paid for those bailouts?https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33407742£56 billion was pumped into the 'Celtic tiger' of which £20 was from the Uk, that's three times the total GDP of Eire, We borrowed it at 5.5% and they pay it back at 6.5%. Allegedly!https://www.telegraph.co.ukWith both Ireland and Portugal now out of their bailout programmes, the UK has not lost any money supporting them at the peak of the crisishttps://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36456277