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2 years to sort this lot out, and here we are 4 months from the deadline and the PM is still playing for time, we have a debate in the House of Commons where everyone knows this deal is going to get thrown out, why not just have the debate now and give the Country more time to organise a 2nd referendum
Quote from: drfchound on November 29, 2018, 10:02:14 amOne of the things I heard this morning, on the news, is that some MPs are planning to abstain in the vote or even be absent from Parliament on the day of the vote.WTF is that all about?Surely they are elected to add their weight to such decisions, not dodge them.You mean they should be forced to vote on something they don't have an opinion on? Perhaps the whole electorate should be forced to vote, too, like they do in Australia. Then we can have the second referendum and be absolutely certain that everybody agrees with the result!
One of the things I heard this morning, on the news, is that some MPs are planning to abstain in the vote or even be absent from Parliament on the day of the vote.WTF is that all about?Surely they are elected to add their weight to such decisions, not dodge them.
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on November 29, 2018, 10:04:13 amQuote from: drfchound on November 29, 2018, 10:02:14 amOne of the things I heard this morning, on the news, is that some MPs are planning to abstain in the vote or even be absent from Parliament on the day of the vote.WTF is that all about?Surely they are elected to add their weight to such decisions, not dodge them.You mean they should be forced to vote on something they don't have an opinion on? Perhaps the whole electorate should be forced to vote, too, like they do in Australia. Then we can have the second referendum and be absolutely certain that everybody agrees with the result!They might not have an opinion but they represent their constituents who do.Thinking about the Australian rules, yes I like that, we should implement that here.The outcome does affect us all.
Quote from: drfchound on November 29, 2018, 10:13:06 amQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on November 29, 2018, 10:04:13 amQuote from: drfchound on November 29, 2018, 10:02:14 amOne of the things I heard this morning, on the news, is that some MPs are planning to abstain in the vote or even be absent from Parliament on the day of the vote.WTF is that all about?Surely they are elected to add their weight to such decisions, not dodge them.You mean they should be forced to vote on something they don't have an opinion on? Perhaps the whole electorate should be forced to vote, too, like they do in Australia. Then we can have the second referendum and be absolutely certain that everybody agrees with the result!They might not have an opinion but they represent their constituents who do.Thinking about the Australian rules, yes I like that, we should implement that here.The outcome does affect us all.May's constituency voted Remain. Should she represent their wishes?
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on November 29, 2018, 10:17:06 amQuote from: drfchound on November 29, 2018, 10:13:06 amQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on November 29, 2018, 10:04:13 amQuote from: drfchound on November 29, 2018, 10:02:14 amOne of the things I heard this morning, on the news, is that some MPs are planning to abstain in the vote or even be absent from Parliament on the day of the vote.WTF is that all about?Surely they are elected to add their weight to such decisions, not dodge them.You mean they should be forced to vote on something they don't have an opinion on? Perhaps the whole electorate should be forced to vote, too, like they do in Australia. Then we can have the second referendum and be absolutely certain that everybody agrees with the result!They might not have an opinion but they represent their constituents who do.Thinking about the Australian rules, yes I like that, we should implement that here.The outcome does affect us all.May's constituency voted Remain. Should she represent their wishes?At least she cast her vote, something that her colleagues are suggesting they might not do.
Quote from: drfchound on November 29, 2018, 10:20:57 amQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on November 29, 2018, 10:17:06 amQuote from: drfchound on November 29, 2018, 10:13:06 amQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on November 29, 2018, 10:04:13 amQuote from: drfchound on November 29, 2018, 10:02:14 amOne of the things I heard this morning, on the news, is that some MPs are planning to abstain in the vote or even be absent from Parliament on the day of the vote.WTF is that all about?Surely they are elected to add their weight to such decisions, not dodge them.You mean they should be forced to vote on something they don't have an opinion on? Perhaps the whole electorate should be forced to vote, too, like they do in Australia. Then we can have the second referendum and be absolutely certain that everybody agrees with the result!They might not have an opinion but they represent their constituents who do.Thinking about the Australian rules, yes I like that, we should implement that here.The outcome does affect us all.May's constituency voted Remain. Should she represent their wishes?At least she cast her vote, something that her colleagues are suggesting they might not do.Aren't any MPs who abstain merely representing the 28% who abstained at the referendum..? They need to be represented just as much as the rest of us!
HoundIt's MPs who are caught in the trap of knowing that voting for Brexit will be a disaster, and that voting against Brexit will get them strung up by their constituents. Good of the country Vs personal interest. In a better society, it would be obvious what to do.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on November 29, 2018, 10:24:09 amHoundIt's MPs who are caught in the trap of knowing that voting for Brexit will be a disaster, and that voting against Brexit will get them strung up by their constituents. Good of the country Vs personal interest. In a better society, it would be obvious what to do. Aye, abstain!
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on November 29, 2018, 10:26:32 amQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on November 29, 2018, 10:24:09 amHoundIt's MPs who are caught in the trap of knowing that voting for Brexit will be a disaster, and that voting against Brexit will get them strung up by their constituents. Good of the country Vs personal interest. In a better society, it would be obvious what to do. Aye, abstain!Well thanks for reinforcing my original question there GW.BST is saying the same as me really.Not really doing the job they are elected to do.
Listening to the Chancellor yesterday, it seems that by leaving the EU on the PM’s terms we have to decide whether we’re happy to accept slower economic growth for complete political ownership within the UK.
BSWhy do I feel like I'm on a hamster wheel?I don't want to live in a country where banks and big business lose £200bn-£1trn of wealth. Because the effect of that will be utterly catastrophic for everyone in the country. I don't know where this world is that you live in where ordinary people are magically insulated from what happens to Barclays Bank and Nissan, but if you have the directions, please pass them on.
Quote from: drfchound on November 29, 2018, 10:35:42 amQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on November 29, 2018, 10:26:32 amQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on November 29, 2018, 10:24:09 amHoundIt's MPs who are caught in the trap of knowing that voting for Brexit will be a disaster, and that voting against Brexit will get them strung up by their constituents. Good of the country Vs personal interest. In a better society, it would be obvious what to do. Aye, abstain!Well thanks for reinforcing my original question there GW.BST is saying the same as me really.Not really doing the job they are elected to do.Only if you think they're meant to act as their constituents puppets. Which is NOT what they're elected to do. They're elected to think and act on their constituent's behalf, not take their directions.
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on November 29, 2018, 10:57:30 amQuote from: drfchound on November 29, 2018, 10:35:42 amQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on November 29, 2018, 10:26:32 amQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on November 29, 2018, 10:24:09 amHoundIt's MPs who are caught in the trap of knowing that voting for Brexit will be a disaster, and that voting against Brexit will get them strung up by their constituents. Good of the country Vs personal interest. In a better society, it would be obvious what to do. Aye, abstain!Well thanks for reinforcing my original question there GW.BST is saying the same as me really.Not really doing the job they are elected to do.Only if you think they're meant to act as their constituents puppets. Which is NOT what they're elected to do. They're elected to think and act on their constituent's behalf, not take their directions.Ahah, so if they are supposed to act on behalf of their constituents shouldn’t they turn up in Parliament and cast a vote next week.It is probably the biggest thing they could vote on and to dodge it isn’t the right thing to do.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on November 28, 2018, 10:39:57 pmHAYou were asking for a positive political message about the EU, so if you don't mind, I'm going to stick on topic and not get sidetracked into the much broader question of political influence. There were brutal civil wars in Yugoslavia and (to a lesser extent) Cyprus in the second half of the 20th century. None of the participants were in the EU at the time. NATO existed and its existence did nothing to prevent those wars from occuring. My point is that it is inconceivable that there would be civil wars or Inter-country wars in or between countries that ARE NOW members of the EU. Similarly, the presence of NATO forces in Europe and the discipline of the Cold War did nothing to stop the Iberian peninsula being governed by fascist dictators up to the 1970s. Nor did it prevent a military coup d'etat in Greece. It is inconceivable that any EU country would now see democracy collapse(*), and that is in large part due to discipline that membership of the EU imposes. It's one obvious reason why Turkey under Erdogan will never join the EU, despite the bald lies that the Leave campaign quietly pumped into vulnerable people's social media feeds in 2016. And none of that covers the two FAR bigger issues. That the really dangerous historical fault lines in Europe have been between UK, France, Germany and Russia. The EU (and NATO, of course) has been instrumental in binding three if those together against the changing threat of the fourth. Why do you think Putin has invested so much time, money and effort in supporting anti-EU forces in the UK, France, Hungary, Poland, Italy...That final point is the overwhelming political positive of the EU.Billy, As I stated earlier, its a given that nations that have economic interests in each other will tend to avoid conflict. NATO may not have prevented the Balkan War, but DID (well us and the USA) stop itWhile of course there have been no wars involving EU members, we are seeing a different threat to peace in Europe from the rise in extreme parties. This increase has been caused in large part by things such as mass unemployment, social dislocation and migration which in turn has been influenced by the EU. Look at things that are going on in Italy, Hungry, Germany, Austria. So while we're not seeing wars of the same magnitude as WW1 or WW2, things are far from peaceful in the EU. Anyway, I note that you avoided my question regarding political control from the EU on VAT limits, so let me try another broader question. According to the BBC, between 1993 and 2014 62% of laws introduced in the UK implemented EU obligations including all EU regulations, EU related Acts of Parliament and EU related Statutory Instruments. How would you sell this to a leave supporter as being better for Britain?
HAYou were asking for a positive political message about the EU, so if you don't mind, I'm going to stick on topic and not get sidetracked into the much broader question of political influence. There were brutal civil wars in Yugoslavia and (to a lesser extent) Cyprus in the second half of the 20th century. None of the participants were in the EU at the time. NATO existed and its existence did nothing to prevent those wars from occuring. My point is that it is inconceivable that there would be civil wars or Inter-country wars in or between countries that ARE NOW members of the EU. Similarly, the presence of NATO forces in Europe and the discipline of the Cold War did nothing to stop the Iberian peninsula being governed by fascist dictators up to the 1970s. Nor did it prevent a military coup d'etat in Greece. It is inconceivable that any EU country would now see democracy collapse(*), and that is in large part due to discipline that membership of the EU imposes. It's one obvious reason why Turkey under Erdogan will never join the EU, despite the bald lies that the Leave campaign quietly pumped into vulnerable people's social media feeds in 2016. And none of that covers the two FAR bigger issues. That the really dangerous historical fault lines in Europe have been between UK, France, Germany and Russia. The EU (and NATO, of course) has been instrumental in binding three if those together against the changing threat of the fourth. Why do you think Putin has invested so much time, money and effort in supporting anti-EU forces in the UK, France, Hungary, Poland, Italy...That final point is the overwhelming political positive of the EU.
If we stay in, what do we need the house of Commons and the House of Lords for? we have 80 odd representatives in Brussels. We can get rid of layers of civil servants who feed off parliament, just think of the money it would save just in second residents, and first class train fairs alone. Just let the EU do everything for us, laws, taxes the lot, that way we the taxpayers may get value for money, and rid of a bunch of nondescripts who just think of themselves and do not do what is best for the country. We could even bulldoze the houses of parliament and build social housing in the centre of London, it would save millions on repairs.
Quote from: drfchound on November 29, 2018, 10:02:14 amOne of the things I heard this morning, on the news, is that some MPs are planning to abstain in the vote or even be absent from Parliament on the day of the vote.WTF is that all about?Surely they are elected to add their weight to such decisions, not dodge them.All bar 7 Labour MP's (+ the 4 independent Labour) have confirmed they will vote against May's deal. Out of these 11 only 1 has said she will vote for it - go on have a guess which constituency she represents....https://evolvepolitics.com/here-are-the-12-labour-mps-who-are-considering-voting-for-theresa-mays-brexit-deal/
What could be on the ballot paper in a second EU referendum:Which terms do you want the United Kingdom to adopt for its future relationship with the European Union? 1. Current terms – Remaining in the EU on current terms2. The government’s terms – Accepting the terms that have been negotiated 3. No-deal terms – Leaving the EU on World Trade Organisation terms
Quote from: wilts rover on November 29, 2018, 07:58:12 pmQuote from: drfchound on November 29, 2018, 10:02:14 amOne of the things I heard this morning, on the news, is that some MPs are planning to abstain in the vote or even be absent from Parliament on the day of the vote.WTF is that all about?Surely they are elected to add their weight to such decisions, not dodge them.All bar 7 Labour MP's (+ the 4 independent Labour) have confirmed they will vote against May's deal. Out of these 11 only 1 has said she will vote for it - go on have a guess which constituency she represents....https://evolvepolitics.com/here-are-the-12-labour-mps-who-are-considering-voting-for-theresa-mays-brexit-deal/Wilts, as a political expert (not being funny by the way) can you tell me how many of the Labour MP's who are going to vote against Mays proposed deal are from a constituency which voted to leave.Also, how many are there who are actually going to vote against it please.