No Brexit Extension

[turnbull for england]

For those that enjoy the full use of the English language https://twitter.com/brianmoore666/status/1304159851522732033?s=19

[SydneyRover]

So if ministers can break international law and stay within the ministerial and the civil service codes then those codes are not worth a bobbin?

[Herbert Anchovy]

For those that enjoy the full use of the English language https://twitter.com/brianmoore666/status/1304159851522732033?s=19

Wow, that’s some dissection of the statement. As someone commented, it’s almost as if it was written for Yes Minister!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Quite unreal developments today.

Politicians as committed to the Brexit Project and as far to the Right as Michael Howard and Norman Lamont have gone public to slam down this proposal to break the WA treaty. They both said there is no way it will or should get through the House of Lords

Which got me thinking.

There's a pattern here isn't there.

Two people have advised Johnson over the past few years. Cummings and Bannon.

Both of them are committed to bringing down the entire political system and rebuilding it in a new, right wing populist form.

They are both on record as saying that their plans have been to fire up the nationalist base by feeding them the lines that The Elite is trying to stop them getting what they want.

This is an obvious step in that direction. This time last year, Johnson flagrantly broke the law by proroguing Parliament. he was stopped by the Opposition parties and the Judiciary, and he used that to fire up Brexiters into a seething mass at the thought that The Elite was trying to stop them getting what they wanted. It's the same thing going on here. Johnson knows he is in a shocking position. He knows he can't get a deal from the EU without breaking every promise he made to the Brexiters.. And he knows that getting No Deal will be catastrophic. So he's using the Cummings/Bannon playbook. Use this mess to aim the Brexit supporters' ire away from where it should be (at those bas**rds like him who used them) and make the EU, the Opposition and the House of Lords the baddies. Deliberately whip up the fears of Brexiters that they are being denied the Brexit they want. Chuck more petrol on the fire that they have fanned for 5 years. And to hell with the damage it does.

Playing people, ever single step of the way. Amoral, unprincipled bas**rds. The damage they are doing to our social cohesion is beyond measure.

[SydneyRover]

Food for thought bst, what say you brexiters?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?

Google can't find any.

In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.

Here’s a link for you.

https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/

No mention of breaking a treaty in that. Try again?

I wouldn’t have thought it’d need to explicit mention it

You do. All I can see is a change of policy. No broken treaty anywhere.

No need to highlight any words Glyn. I can read it perfectly without thanks.

It’s not a change in policy. The policy hadn’t changed. The EU just chose to ignore their own policy in this instance.

So you agree it was policy and not a treaty. Good. Now we've got past that, how about a genuine example of the EU breaking a treaty?

Smoke and mirrors Glyn. It’s a policy that is part of a wider treaty that was written and agreed upon by the EU...That they decided shouldn’t apply to France in this instance. But of course you knew that didn’t you.

So, is it ok for the EU to break their own rules/laws by changing elements of their own treaties to suit their needs? Did you shout foul play when they broke this treaty to accommodate French overspend? Or doesn’t it fit your rose tinted view of the EU and you only have a fit when the UK do it?

Again, which treaty, and which clause was broken?

Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?

Google can't find any.

In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.

Here’s a link for you.

https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/

So, nothing to do with breaking treaties then?

Yes it is to do with a treaty. It’s a policy that is part of a wider treaty signed and agreed by the EU.

Which treaty is that then? And what clause has been broken? I'm asking because I'm getting the distinct impression you have no idea what a treaty is.

Happy to help you understand what a treaty is Glyn. You only need to ask.

It's the Excessive Deficit Procedure which is governed by the Article 126 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. The clause? I've no idea....but then again I'm sure you don't know either.

Now, about the question that you've avoided answering. Do you also call foul play when the EU break the rules within their own treaties (as with the French example) or is it only when the UK does it?

The Excessive Deficit Procedure itself is not part of the Treaty.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?

Google can't find any.

In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.

Here’s a link for you.

https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/

So, nothing to do with breaking treaties then?

Yes it is to do with a treaty. It’s a policy that is part of a wider treaty signed and agreed by the EU.

Which treaty is that then? And what clause has been broken? I'm asking because I'm getting the distinct impression you have no idea what a treaty is.

Happy to help you understand what a treaty is Glyn. You only need to ask.

It's the Excessive Deficit Procedure which is governed by the Article 126 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. The clause? I've no idea....but then again I'm sure you don't know either.

Now, about the question that you've avoided answering. Do you also call foul play when the EU break the rules within their own treaties (as with the French example) or is it only when the UK does it?

It is impossible for the EU to break the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU - because the EU is not a signature to the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. This is a Treaty on the formation and functions of the EU as agreed by its member states. Only they can break it.

If you wish to argue that France 'broke' their obligations then fair enough. It is up to the other member states to take action. This is a Treaty between states to form the EU. Not between the EU and those states.

Wilts

It is the responsibility of the Council to impose ‘punishment’ on member states that don’t adhere to treaty obligations not the other member states. In the French example it was the Council who made the decision to overlook the overspend. The signatories of the treaty didn’t choose to vary the agreement. There was no ratification of any treaty changes. Quite simply the Council made the decision to override the treaty. Yet, from what I can see, there was very little complaint about it.

You really ought to read and try to understand Article 126.

[Not Now Kato]

Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?

Google can't find any.

In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.

Here’s a link for you.

https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/

So, nothing to do with breaking treaties then?

Yes it is to do with a treaty. It’s a policy that is part of a wider treaty signed and agreed by the EU.

Which treaty is that then? And what clause has been broken? I'm asking because I'm getting the distinct impression you have no idea what a treaty is.

Happy to help you understand what a treaty is Glyn. You only need to ask.

It's the Excessive Deficit Procedure which is governed by the Article 126 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. The clause? I've no idea....but then again I'm sure you don't know either.

Now, about the question that you've avoided answering. Do you also call foul play when the EU break the rules within their own treaties (as with the French example) or is it only when the UK does it?

It is impossible for the EU to break the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU - because the EU is not a signature to the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. This is a Treaty on the formation and functions of the EU as agreed by its member states. Only they can break it.

If you wish to argue that France 'broke' their obligations then fair enough. It is up to the other member states to take action. This is a Treaty between states to form the EU. Not between the EU and those states.

Wilts

It is the responsibility of the Council to impose ‘punishment’ on member states that don’t adhere to treaty obligations not the other member states. In the French example it was the Council who made the decision to overlook the overspend. The signatories of the treaty didn’t choose to vary the agreement. There was no ratification of any treaty changes. Quite simply the Council made the decision to override the treaty. Yet, from what I can see, there was very little complaint about it.

You really ought to read and try to understand Article 126.

Absolutely Glyn.  I posted sufficient of it for him but I note that, again, he deigns to comment!

[Herbert Anchovy]

Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?

Google can't find any.

In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.

Here’s a link for you.

https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/

No mention of breaking a treaty in that. Try again?

I wouldn’t have thought it’d need to explicit mention it

You do. All I can see is a change of policy. No broken treaty anywhere.

No need to highlight any words Glyn. I can read it perfectly without thanks.

It’s not a change in policy. The policy hadn’t changed. The EU just chose to ignore their own policy in this instance.

So you agree it was policy and not a treaty. Good. Now we've got past that, how about a genuine example of the EU breaking a treaty?

Smoke and mirrors Glyn. It’s a policy that is part of a wider treaty that was written and agreed upon by the EU...That they decided shouldn’t apply to France in this instance. But of course you knew that didn’t you.

So, is it ok for the EU to break their own rules/laws by changing elements of their own treaties to suit their needs? Did you shout foul play when they broke this treaty to accommodate French overspend? Or doesn’t it fit your rose tinted view of the EU and you only have a fit when the UK do it?

Again, which treaty, and which clause was broken?

Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?

Google can't find any.

In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.

Here’s a link for you.

https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/

So, nothing to do with breaking treaties then?

Yes it is to do with a treaty. It’s a policy that is part of a wider treaty signed and agreed by the EU.

Which treaty is that then? And what clause has been broken? I'm asking because I'm getting the distinct impression you have no idea what a treaty is.

Happy to help you understand what a treaty is Glyn. You only need to ask.

It's the Excessive Deficit Procedure which is governed by the Article 126 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. The clause? I've no idea....but then again I'm sure you don't know either.

Now, about the question that you've avoided answering. Do you also call foul play when the EU break the rules within their own treaties (as with the French example) or is it only when the UK does it?

The Excessive Deficit Procedure itself is not part of the Treaty.

Glyn

You seem like an angry man who has trouble with civilised debate. You don’t often say anything with any substance do you? 

Now, about that question that I’ve asked you 4 times? Are you going to answer it?

Oh and by the way....you might want to look at the TFEU. That will point you in the right direction.

[Herbert Anchovy]

Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?

Google can't find any.

In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.

Here’s a link for you.

https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/

So, nothing to do with breaking treaties then?

Yes it is to do with a treaty. It’s a policy that is part of a wider treaty signed and agreed by the EU.

Which treaty is that then? And what clause has been broken? I'm asking because I'm getting the distinct impression you have no idea what a treaty is.

Happy to help you understand what a treaty is Glyn. You only need to ask.

It's the Excessive Deficit Procedure which is governed by the Article 126 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. The clause? I've no idea....but then again I'm sure you don't know either.

Now, about the question that you've avoided answering. Do you also call foul play when the EU break the rules within their own treaties (as with the French example) or is it only when the UK does it?

It is impossible for the EU to break the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU - because the EU is not a signature to the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. This is a Treaty on the formation and functions of the EU as agreed by its member states. Only they can break it.

If you wish to argue that France 'broke' their obligations then fair enough. It is up to the other member states to take action. This is a Treaty between states to form the EU. Not between the EU and those states.

Wilts

It is the responsibility of the Council to impose ‘punishment’ on member states that don’t adhere to treaty obligations not the other member states. In the French example it was the Council who made the decision to overlook the overspend. The signatories of the treaty didn’t choose to vary the agreement. There was no ratification of any treaty changes. Quite simply the Council made the decision to override the treaty. Yet, from what I can see, there was very little complaint about it.

You really ought to read and try to understand Article 126.

Absolutely Glyn.  I posted sufficient of it for him but I note that, again, he deigns to comment!

NNK

Come on play nicely. Don’t fall into Glyn’s angry man persona!! There’s no time limit on replying is there?

For the record, your copy and paste job says not much. The Council agreed a deficit existed but decided not to impose ‘punishment’ on France (France being one of the most powerful members of the EU of course) thus breaking the terms of the treaty!

[Herbert Anchovy]

What this little debate has done has highlighted is the polarisation of the Brexit debate. How, even with evidence set before them, people will refuse to accept that their view is in any way wrong, and their ‘side’ is squeaky clean.

Any criticism of the EU is roundly jumped upon by individuals without any understanding of the facts. The truth is the EU have broken their own treaties before...the truth is every treaty on the planet has at some time been broken or ‘ignored’....the truth is for many of us it doesn’t really matter. All I wanted to do was highlight the utter hypocrisy of Remainers and Brexit supporters who cry foul but ignore their own sides failings. I’m also a member of some other forums where I argue with Brexit supporters who are equally polarised and blind to the facts. Seeing people scurry off to try and prove that they’re right without any understanding is a sad sight.

For the record, I totally oppose the UK Government’s actions with the WA. However, also for the record, I oppose the EU breaking their treaties. But, all this smoke and mirrors about when a policy is a treaty etc is just utter b*llocks.

The Brexit debate has long since turned into a charade where either side is 100% right or 100% wrong. Utter insanity.

I voted to leave and I still dislike the EU. However, the manner in which the UK is handling it leaves things very sour for me.

Oh and by the way. If any of you still believe that the EU has never broken it’s own treaties before then, whatever you do, do NOT look into how Greece were accepted into the Euro. I wouldn’t want to shatter your illusions any further.

I bid you farewell.

[Not Now Kato]

Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?

Google can't find any.

In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.

Here’s a link for you.

https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/

So, nothing to do with breaking treaties then?

Yes it is to do with a treaty. It’s a policy that is part of a wider treaty signed and agreed by the EU.

Which treaty is that then? And what clause has been broken? I'm asking because I'm getting the distinct impression you have no idea what a treaty is.

Happy to help you understand what a treaty is Glyn. You only need to ask.

It's the Excessive Deficit Procedure which is governed by the Article 126 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. The clause? I've no idea....but then again I'm sure you don't know either.

Now, about the question that you've avoided answering. Do you also call foul play when the EU break the rules within their own treaties (as with the French example) or is it only when the UK does it?

It is impossible for the EU to break the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU - because the EU is not a signature to the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. This is a Treaty on the formation and functions of the EU as agreed by its member states. Only they can break it.

If you wish to argue that France 'broke' their obligations then fair enough. It is up to the other member states to take action. This is a Treaty between states to form the EU. Not between the EU and those states.

Wilts

It is the responsibility of the Council to impose ‘punishment’ on member states that don’t adhere to treaty obligations not the other member states. In the French example it was the Council who made the decision to overlook the overspend. The signatories of the treaty didn’t choose to vary the agreement. There was no ratification of any treaty changes. Quite simply the Council made the decision to override the treaty. Yet, from what I can see, there was very little complaint about it.

You really ought to read and try to understand Article 126.

Absolutely Glyn.  I posted sufficient of it for him but I note that, again, he deigns to comment!

NNK

Come on play nicely. Don’t fall into Glyn’s angry man persona!! There’s no time limit on replying is there?

For the record, your copy and paste job says not much. The Council agreed a deficit existed but decided not to impose ‘punishment’ on France (France being one of the most powerful members of the EU of course) thus breaking the terms of the treaty!

Firstly Herbert, I'm not playing, I'm very serious as the whole of Brexit is a very serious matter.
 
The purpose of my cut and paste was to show exactly what the rules for the particular issue you appear to have are.  I also provided a link to the full document - something that the EU, unlike our own government,  is very good at; though very few people will take the time to research them; maybe it's easier to believe the lies and/or distortions in the right wing media, (not suggesting that applies to you, but it does to many and is part of the propaganda used by the leave camaigns).
 
From that section of the treaty it is very clear that the EU did not break any rules in respect to France at that time, though I can see why some other countries could have concern. But there is nothing in those rules that say that sanctions MUST be applied to a country running an EXCESSIVE deficit. Should that section of the treaty be tighter? Probably.  But that can only be done from within the EU and as we are no longer members we can have no influence on it.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I'm not an angry man, just someone exasperated by a wild claim with no substance to it. I've read Article 126 and I can't find anything in it that has been contravened. If you're so certain it has, just point out where. But please bear in kind the basic difference between UK Law and EU Law.

As for answering your question, when you give a real example of the EU - as an institution - breaking a treaty it's a signatory to I'll respond to it. Until then, it's just hypothetical.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Business Secretary Nadeem Zahawi has just said this on the radio.

"We are absolutely committed to the Withdrawal Agreement and the Northern Ireland provisions."

Great! You'd think so wouldn't you? Given that the Govt shouted from the rooftops last October that they had achieved a fantastic goal by securing this WA.

And Johnson then spent the entire Election campaign explaining that the WA did not but a customs border between GB and NI.

And the Tory MPs celebrated when they voted the WA into law.

So. All good!

Except...

Zahawi then went on to say this.

"No British Govt could accept an agreement that discriminated against NI, and put barriers to trade between GB and NI. So we have to legislate to change the provisions of the WA."

Go on. Someone explain to me the logic going on here. Some Tory Govt supporter, please explain to me how you continue to support this shower. Me, in my decades of obsessive interest in politics, I have never heard anything like this. It's genuinely Alice in f**king Wonderland stuff. Words meaning whatever the speaker chooses them to mean, but making no logical sense to anyone else.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Listen from 2:39:00 here.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000mcnw

Those of you who say that all politicians lie shamelessly, find me ANY example of a Labour politician in the past 10 years lying like Zahawi does here.

[selby]

Dawn Butler didn't do bad trying to set a couple of coppers up.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And your evidence for that is Selby?

Anyway...just be aware where you are...somewhere WAY off the the Right of Norman Lamont.

[selby]

  Why the time limit Billy, didn't you want the illegal war Blair  led including, that was a decent breaking of international law  wasn't it.

[wilts rover]

Dawn Butler didn't do bad trying to set a couple of coppers up.

Remind me Selby - where did Dawn Butler lie?

Here's something to help you

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/aug/16/dawn-butler-police-stop-rooted-in-bias-says-black-police-officers-chief-andrew-george

[MachoMadness]

Dawn Butler didn't do bad trying to set a couple of coppers up.

That incident that the police apologised for, and invited her in to work with them to stop it happening again in future, you mean?

[BillyStubbsTears]

  Why the time limit Billy, didn't you want the illegal war Blair  led including, that was a decent breaking of international law  wasn't it.

Yes I agree. That was disgraceful. But that was a generation ago. Labour has been seared by that experience. And a new generation of politicians now runs Labour. So I'll ask again, when have you heard any of this generation lie like Zahawai was doing this morning?

By the way, I refused to vote for Blair's Labour party again after that. You crow about your support for politicians who have made careers out of lying.

[albie]

Cummings is throwing the NI unionists on the bonfire, as they are no longer needed for the purposes of this government.

Challenge the EU or Ireland to put in border controls to protect the integrity of the EU as an economic entity, then play the "not us, gov" card.

Very cavalier with the Good Friday Agreement. It looks like a border poll being called is just a residual risk they are prepared to take.

[selby]

  Loads of threats and bluster the last couple of days, but nobody walked out of the meetings they were having, more bluster from both sides still to come, then will it be arms around each other and everyone friendly with some sort of deal?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Like the WA deal that Johnson trumpeted last October as a masterpiece of negotiation Selby?

That WA that Nadeem Zahawi said this morning was unacceptable to any UK Govt? That one?

[tommy toes]

Nadeem Zahawi is the one I hate most in this government.
And that's saying something.
He's a complete disgrace. Wouldn't know the truth if he was in bed with it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Meanwhile.

https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCJonSopel/status/1304401871730286592

Not that it will make any of the Brexit Death Cult one iota less certain of their quest.

[selby]

  TT, your racial, you can disagree but not hate.

[tommy toes]

No reply to  a WUM.

[EasyforDennis]

  TT, your racial, you can disagree but not hate.

Sorry Selby you are wrong. How is intensely disliking Nadeem Zahawi racial?

I dislike the man with a passion as I do Johnson, Hancock, Gove and Patel.
Am I only being racial towards two of them?

[Glyn_Wigley]

  TT, your racial, you can disagree but not hate.

b*llocks. You can hate someone for the lies they spout with the colour of their skin being completely irrelevant. Like most of your posts on any given subject.