Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: EasyforDennis on May 27, 2020, 12:39:10 pm
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I know this might sound a bit simplistic but seeing as Google knows where everyone who owns a phone is at anyone time., could they not develop a track and trace app worldwide for Covid19? I know this would exclude us as we think we know better than everyone else but?
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Sounds like a good idea but wouldn’t people just not download the App in case the government used the data collected in some kind of devious way.
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An app like that is only any use if people download and use the app. I won't download it because I don't use the internet on the phone. I'm not paying extra for something I can use as much as I like at home.
I would imagine there is a sizable chunk of the population who don't want (or don't know how to use) a smartphone and also those who can't afford to buy or run one. And my guess is that those will tend to be from the parts of the population more vulnerable to the virus.
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Agreed GW (wow), my wife for example has the most basic of phones and never even switches it on unless she wants to make one of her six a year calls.
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That's very similar to the system they have in South Korea. It essentially publicises the locations of anyone with symptoms so you know where to avoid them. The penalty for not using the app (or other tracking tech like ankle bracelets) is a 10k fine.
It's interesting because that sort of thing would never fly over here because of the privacy concerns, but over there they seem content to sacrifice their privacy for the sake of getting the virus under control. And it is under control there, although they have only recently had a spike in cases again.
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If you use Google maps Google know where you are.
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If you use Google maps Google know where you are.
Well, I'm always at home when I use it.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-52442754 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-52442754)
Does any one else find this confusing.?
Take the manual method:
“Anyone in England who tests positive for coronavirus will be contacted via text, email or over the phone and asked to log on to the NHS Test and Trace website, where they'll be asked for details of people with whom they've been in close contact....
...This could include household members, but extends to anyone they have been within 2m (6ft) of for more than 15 minutes....
...These close contacts will be told to stay at home for up to 14 days, even if they do not have symptoms, to stop them from unknowingly spreading the virus...
...While these contacts will have to quarantine, unless they also develop symptoms the rest of their household will not have to self-isolate alongside them.”
So - let’s say someone I know has symptoms/tests positive and lets a tracer know, including that I have been in close contact with them. The tracer gets in touch with me - assuming the other person passes on my contact details.
I am then asked to quarantine/self isolate for 14 days, but the rest of my household isn’t.?
So if I am asymptomatic who’s to say I haven’t passed the virus onto one of my family members, again who may just be a carrier, who then form whatever reason passes it onto someone else who does get ill and dies.
All those instances of transfer could have happened on the same day, so before any symptoms could present. Eventually the next infected person may then use track and trace, but after the virus had spread..
Surely if track and trace tells me I have been in contact with an infected person then all my household should isolate.?
...
Then in the schematic further down that page, the “contact” only has to self isolate if they are high risk, but not if low risk.? Can’t low risk people still transmit the virus anyway?
That’s two different descriptions/methods in the same article..
I’m not against methods to trace the virus spread to prevent it going further, but this needs to be made much clearer and explained to the public in very simple terms.
But it starts tomorrow.!
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And it will be our “civic duty” to take part..
I wonder if there will be any exceptions.!
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Don't worry by all accounts it doesn't work.
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I won’t be using it I have no confidence in anything these idiots try to implement
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I’m not even talking about the app..
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Did I read somewhere that Cummings and his sister are directors of the app company or did I dream that ?
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Did I read somewhere that Cummings and his sister are directors of the app company or did I dream that ?
Just his sister, I think. So who cares if it works or not as long as she gets the dosh from the Treasury, eh?
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Did I read somewhere that Cummings and his sister are directors of the app company or did I dream that ?
Just his sister, I think. So who cares if it works or not as long as she gets the dosh from the Treasury, eh?
You'd think she could have at least offered to look after her nephew...
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Did I read somewhere that Cummings and his sister are directors of the app company or did I dream that ?
It was asked the other day in a Newspaper article under the headline "was this a business Meeting" - referring to Cummings trip to Durham
That aside I share the reservations that IDM has outlined. Lets face it (non Cummings related) with the simple Stay at Home rule (just one rule / bit of info) people did not understand it and / or just ignored it. This is way way too complex. More questions than answers again
I also have read that there IS an App that works it was reported using existing technology and is in extensive use in US and Europe and yet we "spurned it".
Perhaps again Johnson didnt want to ally us with Europe or maybe he thought returning to the question that was asked "we" had a better one.
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Did I read somewhere that Cummings and his sister are directors of the app company or did I dream that ?
It was asked the other day in a Newspaper article under the headline "was this a business Meeting" - referring to Cummings trip to Durham
That aside I share the reservations that IDM has outlined. Lets face it (non Cummings related) with the simple Stay at Home rule (just one rule / bit of info) people did not understand it and / or just ignored it. This is way way too complex. More questions than answers again
I also have read that there IS an App that works it was reported using existing technology and is in extensive use in US and Europe and yet we "spurned it".
Perhaps again Johnson didnt want to ally us with Europe or maybe he thought returning to the question that was asked "we" had a better one.
Well, we couldn't use it earlier or else Dominic wouldn't have been able to try and sneak off for his jollies, would he?
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So if someone tests positive and had been in close contact with people they know well enough to pass on their contact details to the tracer people, wouldn’t most of us have just told those contacts directly.?
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So no app
I nip into town on the bus, haven't got a clue who the other people on the bus are
1 how do they trace the other passengers?
2 If they do manage to identify someone how do they contact them by phone?
3 Where do they get a phone number from?
4 You don't have a phone then what?
Seems like a wonderful scheme to me!
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The manual system will only work by contacting people who know each other, not strangers, as by default strangers won’t have the contact details of each other to pass on to the tracers.
So, by manually reporting you may have symptoms, and if you then test positive, you then are expected to pass on names and contact details of people with whom you have been in close contact with.
So excluding members of your own household this means you are effectively being asked to confess to breaking the existing lockdown rules, or that your workplace is not Covid secure.?
With the app, you have to have your phone with you and Bluetooth on, but not would still depend on the first patient to reveal they are infected. The database or whatever it is then notifies the people who have been close by - assuming they have the app running live, who are then expected to further report etc.
This might work, to track where the virus is/had been, which could be useful, but I can’t see how this would limit the spread.
Plus you are relying on people to follow the rules - and many will now say why should they.!
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So no app
I nip into town on the bus, haven't got a clue who the other people on the bus are
1 how do they trace the other passengers?
2 If they do manage to identify someone how do they contact them by phone?
3 Where do they get a phone number from?
4 You don't have a phone then what?
Seems like a wonderful scheme to me!
Without an app (that not everyone would have the ability to use and many would choose not to use) there's not a huge amount they can do. The better action is to avoid the other people on the bus, wear a mask as recommended and keep your distance. There is no one size fits solution, we all need to do lots of things combined together.
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Rushing this out now is nothing to do with sorting CV-19, it's all about shifting the discussion away from Dominic Cummings and taking the heat off Johnson; neither more nor less.
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Rushing this out now is nothing to do with sorting CV-19, it's all about shifting the discussion away from Dominic Cummings and taking the heat off Johnson; neither more nor less.
Whilst the timing is a little convenient for them, in fairness they announced it before the story and it's been in the makings for some time.
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They were not going to implement it yet, deffo an attempt to move the spotlight the thing they've announced this morning is utter rubbish can't work unless you know the people you've been in contact with and wouldn't you let them know yourself?
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Coronavirus: Track and trace system in place from June - PM
Boris Johnson said 25,000 contact tracers, able to track 10,000 new cases a day, would be in place by 1 June.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52741331
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Three words spring to mind
Not Track and Trace
Baddiel and Skinner
Sorry can someone embed this below please (technomuppet in operation)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A2O8Q5WxiM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A2O8Q5WxiM)
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R4 last night were reporting that at the very top end of efficiency, they hope to trace maybe 15% of people. Probably more like 5%.
They also interviewed someone from a local council who is involved in implementing T&T. She said she'd been informed by Govt at 2pm yesterday that the system was going live at 9am today.
Just a thought. I'm sure this wasn't suddenly fast tracked as a way of moving the media spotlight of Cumgate?
Surely not...
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If it works the govt is off the hook on that one.
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I have said this before - folks already borderline with following the rules, will be much less likely to follow any new rules because of Cummings.
I think the track and trace launching today is to grab headlines and to deflect from the changes to furlough arrangements. The details of how much employers are expected to contribute from August are due to be announced any time now.
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Did I read somewhere that Cummings and his sister are directors of the app company or did I dream that ?
Just his sister, I think. So who cares if it works or not as long as she gets the dosh from the Treasury, eh?
But she's a NED, so hardly raking in the cash.
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I can't understand all the negativity towards track & trace here.
Every other country that has done this has seen very positive results from t&t but for some reason we can't?
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I just had to google ned?
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So if/when I get a call from a tracer...
Caller: So can I ask who you’ve been in contact with recently so we can tell them to isolate for 14 days
Me: Yes, sure. Mr B Johnson, Mr M Hancock, Mr D Cummings.
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I can't understand all the negativity towards track & trace here.
Every other country that has done this has seen very positive results from t&t but for some reason we can't?
I’m not against it in principle, just worried about the practicalities..
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I just had to google ned?
Non Executive Director
In other words not an employee.
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Thanks I came up with Scottish hooligan?
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Thanks I came up with Scottish hooligan?
Same description "not an employee" 🤣🤣
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I can't understand all the negativity towards track & trace here.
Every other country that has done this has seen very positive results from t&t but for some reason we can't?
I don’t think anybody would deny it’s a difficult system to introduce or that it’s a necessary concept.
I feel any negativity stems from the fact that the PM stood there last week and said that by June 1st we’d have a world beating system in place. It sets expectation. Now just think about what the basics of an effective and fully functioning, never mind world beating, system would require:
- A way of identifying reliable contact information.
- A strong and credible message of what you must do to isolate and contain the virus.
- Robust enforcement action against non compliance.
The first part is very challenging, nonetheless essential for an effective or world beating system and it’s not like we haven’t had time to prepare. The second part is utterly f**king simple but has been made absolutely f**king feeble and bordering on impotent by the prioritisation of protecting one man from incrimination over and above clear public health messaging. The third part has now been totally discredited.
Tell me again why you can’t understand negativity. We need this system to work and it’s blatantly not in a position to be effective, yet.
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I can't understand all the negativity towards track & trace here.
Every other country that has done this has seen very positive results from t&t but for some reason we can't?
The negativity probably fits the rhetoric on here most of the time.
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I can't understand all the negativity towards track & trace here.
Every other country that has done this has seen very positive results from t&t but for some reason we can't?
The negativity probably fits the rhetoric on here most of the time.
Do you think it’s ready and as good as it can and should be?
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I have no idea.
As SM has said, T&T works for other countries.
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I do not have a smart phone. It's another step towards big brother.
So what happens if you are told to isolate for two weeks and can't work getting no wages and then on your return to work are told to isolate again because of someone else. No one will take any notice of this.
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Here the app was delayed and didn't work on iphones and quite a few hiccups. Still not sure if it's working properly yet, we had a bit of a late start for lockdown and the notorious Ruby Princess stuff up there is not much for it to do. There is not much in the news about it.
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I just had to google ned?
Non Executive Director
In other words not an employee.
But a shareholder?
As for negativity about T&T, if it had been in place from the start of(or ideally before) lockdown and was able to do the job properly then I'm sure people would have embraced it as a useful tool in the fight against the virus.
As it is, it's looking like a cobbled-together mess being started so late as to be almost an irrelevance, and only being done at all to cover certain people's arses.
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I can't understand all the negativity towards track & trace here.
Every other country that has done this has seen very positive results from t&t but for some reason we can't?
The negativity probably fits the rhetoric on here most of the time.
It’s not only folks on here who have concerns - not sure why expressing concerns means negativity necessarily - a doctor (edit - team leader) was on radio 2 a few minutes ago who is part of the NHS team to implement this, who got the email notifying him to start today, at 21.50 last night.
Whilst he was in agreement in principle with track and trace, the word he used to describe the management and the hurry to implement this scheme was “shambles”..
That’s an team leader involved in delivering the scheme. Not the rhetoric on this forum.
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I have no idea.
As SM has said, T&T works for other countries.
Other countries are run by people who know what they're doing.
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It’s obvious this has been rushed forward to try and take the heat off cumgate, it has nothing at all to do with the nations health today, it’s all about deflection, nothing else
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I just had to google ned?
Non Executive Director
In other words not an employee.
But a shareholder?
As for negativity about T&T, if it had been in place from the start of(or ideally before) lockdown and was able to do the job properly then I'm sure people would have embraced it as a useful tool in the fight against the virus.
As it is, it's looking like a cobbled-together mess being started so late as to be almost an irrelevance, and only being done at all to cover certain people's arses.
It was in place and active before the lockdown, but it was scrapped. The concern is, although it’s clearly been scaled up, it doesn’t seem to have demonstrably progressed in the time in between. And the government’s message, which was commendably strong at the start of lockdown, has been weakened to provide wiggle room for a senior aide.
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It was canned because there were too many cases to deal with, code for not enough trained tracing staff.
''Coronavirus: Test and trace system kicks off in England and Scotland
Meanwhile, two MPs said they were told England's system would not be fully operational "at local level" until the end of June''
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52829357
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I do not have a smart phone. It's another step towards big brother.
So what happens if you are told to isolate for two weeks and can't work getting no wages and then on your return to work are told to isolate again because of someone else. No one will take any notice of this.
... and then there will be a second wave the experts say and millions more wont be able to work again - and they will be the lucky "non dead" ones
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I can't understand all the negativity towards track & trace here.
Every other country that has done this has seen very positive results from t&t but for some reason we can't?
I don’t think anybody would deny it’s a difficult system to introduce or that it’s a necessary concept.
I feel any negativity stems from the fact that the PM stood there last week and said that by June 1st we’d have a world beating system in place. It sets expectation. Now just think about what the basics of an effective and fully functioning, never mind world beating, system would require:
- A way of identifying reliable contact information.
- A strong and credible message of what you must do to isolate and contain the virus.
- Robust enforcement action against non compliance.
The first part is very challenging, nonetheless essential for an effective or world beating system and it’s not like we haven’t had time to prepare. The second part is utterly f**king simple but has been made absolutely f**king feeble and bordering on impotent by the prioritisation of protecting one man from incrimination over and above clear public health messaging. The third part has now been totally discredited.
Tell me again why you can’t understand negativity. We need this system to work and it’s blatantly not in a position to be effective, yet.
That's a different set of goalposts. I was referring to the negativity towards track and trace and not on the credibility of this government.
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I just had to google ned?
Non Executive Director
In other words not an employee.
But a shareholder?
As for negativity about T&T, if it had been in place from the start of(or ideally before) lockdown and was able to do the job properly then I'm sure people would have embraced it as a useful tool in the fight against the virus.
As it is, it's looking like a cobbled-together mess being started so late as to be almost an irrelevance, and only being done at all to cover certain people's arses.
You're guessing now though Glyn, there's no relationship between being a NED and a shareholder.
I agree that it doesn't look great to start with, but if it had been withheld people would be complaining that it's taken too long to implement and are now complaining its being rushed in.
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I wasn't guessing, I was asking. I'm pretty sure Private Eye said she's a shareholder but I'm not sure which issue it was in.
And T&T shouldn't have been withheld or rushed in. it should have been in place at the same time other countries managed to have it up and running.
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I do not have a smart phone. It's another step towards big brother.
So what happens if you are told to isolate for two weeks and can't work getting no wages and then on your return to work are told to isolate again because of someone else. No one will take any notice of this.
... and then there will be a second wave the experts say and millions more wont be able to work again - and they will be the lucky "non dead" ones
How many times will we be sent home from work on £90 p/week though? The vulnerable should stay indoors and the rest of us should carry on as normal to save the economy. If we all had a couple of weeks on the sick with it we would build up immunity.
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I wasn't guessing, I was asking. I'm pretty sure Private Eye said she's a shareholder but I'm not sure which issue it was in.
And T&T shouldn't have been withheld or rushed in. it should have been in place at the same time other countries managed to have it up and running.
But being a shareholder normally means someone is investing in the company, not taking out 'loads of dosh' as you put it. I have no idea if she has invested in the company, but would it be such a crime if she had? Without some proof it seems that there's a rush to be unduly critical before even contemplating checking basic details.
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I wasn't guessing, I was asking. I'm pretty sure Private Eye said she's a shareholder but I'm not sure which issue it was in.
And T&T shouldn't have been withheld or rushed in. it should have been in place at the same time other countries managed to have it up and running.
But being a shareholder normally means someone is investing in the company, not taking out 'loads of dosh' as you put it. I have no idea if she has invested in the company, but would it be such a crime if she had? Without some proof it seems that there's a rush to be unduly critical before even contemplating checking basic details.
She'd be benefitting from the profits the company will make as a result. Do you not see that as a direct conflict of interest - especially when as far as I know there's been no public tender? And when a working version could I'm sure have been bought off-the-peg from whoever created those used by other countries.
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I wasn't guessing, I was asking. I'm pretty sure Private Eye said she's a shareholder but I'm not sure which issue it was in.
And T&T shouldn't have been withheld or rushed in. it should have been in place at the same time other countries managed to have it up and running.
But being a shareholder normally means someone is investing in the company, not taking out 'loads of dosh' as you put it. I have no idea if she has invested in the company, but would it be such a crime if she had? Without some proof it seems that there's a rush to be unduly critical before even contemplating checking basic details.
She'd be benefitting from the profits the company will make as a result. Do you not see that as a direct conflict of interest - especially when as far as I know there's been no public tender? And when a working version could I'm sure have been bought off-the-peg from whoever created those used by other countries.
According to full facts she's not his sister....
https://fullfact.org/online/not-dominic-cummings-sister/
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I wasn't guessing, I was asking. I'm pretty sure Private Eye said she's a shareholder but I'm not sure which issue it was in.
And T&T shouldn't have been withheld or rushed in. it should have been in place at the same time other countries managed to have it up and running.
But being a shareholder normally means someone is investing in the company, not taking out 'loads of dosh' as you put it. I have no idea if she has invested in the company, but would it be such a crime if she had? Without some proof it seems that there's a rush to be unduly critical before even contemplating checking basic details.
She'd be benefitting from the profits the company will make as a result. Do you not see that as a direct conflict of interest - especially when as far as I know there's been no public tender? And when a working version could I'm sure have been bought off-the-peg from whoever created those used by other countries.
See what I mean about checking basic details? At least I had the decency to check on her position at the company!
There's such a rush to condemn for the very slightest infringement or possibility that they can have a pop at somebody that basic detail seems to pass them by.
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I wasn't guessing, I was asking. I'm pretty sure Private Eye said she's a shareholder but I'm not sure which issue it was in.
And T&T shouldn't have been withheld or rushed in. it should have been in place at the same time other countries managed to have it up and running.
But being a shareholder normally means someone is investing in the company, not taking out 'loads of dosh' as you put it. I have no idea if she has invested in the company, but would it be such a crime if she had? Without some proof it seems that there's a rush to be unduly critical before even contemplating checking basic details.
She'd be benefitting from the profits the company will make as a result. Do you not see that as a direct conflict of interest - especially when as far as I know there's been no public tender? And when a working version could I'm sure have been bought off-the-peg from whoever created those used by other countries.
According to full facts she's not his sister....
https://fullfact.org/online/not-dominic-cummings-sister/
Bump.
Gone quiet about this now lads.
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I can't understand all the negativity towards track & trace here.
Every other country that has done this has seen very positive results from t&t but for some reason we can't?
I’m not against it in principle, just worried about the practicalities..
Precisely.
It was dropped on LAs with zero notice yesterday.
Tracers are reporting that IT systems aren't working.
We have no app.
I'm absolutely not against TTI. It is essential. What I AM against is a clearly flawed system being rammed through to suit a news agenda management requirement.
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I wasn't guessing, I was asking. I'm pretty sure Private Eye said she's a shareholder but I'm not sure which issue it was in.
And T&T shouldn't have been withheld or rushed in. it should have been in place at the same time other countries managed to have it up and running.
But being a shareholder normally means someone is investing in the company, not taking out 'loads of dosh' as you put it. I have no idea if she has invested in the company, but would it be such a crime if she had? Without some proof it seems that there's a rush to be unduly critical before even contemplating checking basic details.
She'd be benefitting from the profits the company will make as a result. Do you not see that as a direct conflict of interest - especially when as far as I know there's been no public tender? And when a working version could I'm sure have been bought off-the-peg from whoever created those used by other countries.
According to full facts she's not his sister....
https://fullfact.org/online/not-dominic-cummings-sister/
Bump.
Gone quiet about this now lads.
Just like you went quiet when challenged to show what posts of yours you accused me of editing?
I've only just seen this and am quite happy to put my hands up and admit I was wrong.
Your turn to do the same now.
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I wasn't guessing, I was asking. I'm pretty sure Private Eye said she's a shareholder but I'm not sure which issue it was in.
And T&T shouldn't have been withheld or rushed in. it should have been in place at the same time other countries managed to have it up and running.
But being a shareholder normally means someone is investing in the company, not taking out 'loads of dosh' as you put it. I have no idea if she has invested in the company, but would it be such a crime if she had? Without some proof it seems that there's a rush to be unduly critical before even contemplating checking basic details.
She'd be benefitting from the profits the company will make as a result. Do you not see that as a direct conflict of interest - especially when as far as I know there's been no public tender? And when a working version could I'm sure have been bought off-the-peg from whoever created those used by other countries.
According to full facts she's not his sister....
https://fullfact.org/online/not-dominic-cummings-sister/
Bump.
Gone quiet about this now lads.
Just like you went quiet when challenged to show what posts of yours you accused me of editing?
I've only just seen this and am quite happy to put my hands up and admit I was wrong.
Your turn to do the same now.
Glyn, we both know.
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I wasn't guessing, I was asking. I'm pretty sure Private Eye said she's a shareholder but I'm not sure which issue it was in.
And T&T shouldn't have been withheld or rushed in. it should have been in place at the same time other countries managed to have it up and running.
But being a shareholder normally means someone is investing in the company, not taking out 'loads of dosh' as you put it. I have no idea if she has invested in the company, but would it be such a crime if she had? Without some proof it seems that there's a rush to be unduly critical before even contemplating checking basic details.
She'd be benefitting from the profits the company will make as a result. Do you not see that as a direct conflict of interest - especially when as far as I know there's been no public tender? And when a working version could I'm sure have been bought off-the-peg from whoever created those used by other countries.
According to full facts she's not his sister....
https://fullfact.org/online/not-dominic-cummings-sister/
Bump.
Gone quiet about this now lads.
Just like you went quiet when challenged to show what posts of yours you accused me of editing?
I've only just seen this and am quite happy to put my hands up and admit I was wrong.
Your turn to do the same now.
Glyn, we both know.
I don't. I have absolutely no idea where you got that ridiculous idea from. Show me or apologise.
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I can't understand all the negativity towards track & trace here.
Every other country that has done this has seen very positive results from t&t but for some reason we can't?
SM, I wholeheartedly agree that, in concept, re-introducing TTI is a positive development and an essential step as the country begins the long, inexorable grind of dealing with Covid.
My fear, however, is that the way it is being implemented in the UK - and England in particular - will be too little too late to make any meaningful difference to our progress. Another example, potentially, of an excellent idea in principle failing through poor execution.
An obvious example of a failing is the obsession with driving the process centrally. To my mind, local Directors of Public Health and councils should be given resources and far reaching powers to introduce the plan that they consider appropriate for their locality.
I live on Merseyside and even I could tell you where the pockets of Covid are and likely to flourish. Regrettably, they correlate closely to areas of social deprivation, under-education and poor community behaviour. How does the government's plan, run centrally from call centres and, shortly, via the much awaited app, with only lip service paid to the views of local community leaders address these key themes? Educating people in these areas and getting their buy-in will be hard but essential to progress.
Unless and until TTI is embedded behaviour accepted by all parts of our society I don't see us making much progress I'm afraid.
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BigH,
That was kind of my point though. It does need to be embedded behaviour, but before we even get going there's individuals on here saying they won't use it. I guess its from a party political viewpoint.
Its not about politics, its about supporting the NHS in order to get this thing as close to zero as possible, adopting a negative mind set from the get go won't do that.
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BigH,
That was kind of my point though. It does need to be embedded behaviour, but before we even get going there's individuals on here saying they won't use it. I guess its from a party political viewpoint.
Its not about politics, its about supporting the NHS in order to get this thing as close to zero as possible, adopting a negative mind set from the get go won't do that.
I'm not going to use it for the reasons I've stated and they ain't political.
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BigH,
That was kind of my point though. It does need to be embedded behaviour, but before we even get going there's individuals on here saying they won't use it. I guess its from a party political viewpoint.
Its not about politics, its about supporting the NHS in order to get this thing as close to zero as possible, adopting a negative mind set from the get go won't do that.
I'm not going to use it for the reasons I've stated and they ain't political.
Yes I know, this is you 'I won't download it because I don't use the internet on the phone'.
You do realise it doesn't use the 'internet' don't you?
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BigH,
That was kind of my point though. It does need to be embedded behaviour, but before we even get going there's individuals on here saying they won't use it. I guess its from a party political viewpoint.
Its not about politics, its about supporting the NHS in order to get this thing as close to zero as possible, adopting a negative mind set from the get go won't do that.
I'm not going to use it for the reasons I've stated and they ain't political.
Yes I know, this is you 'I won't download it because I don't use the internet on the phone'.
You do realise it doesn't use the 'internet' don't you?
How does it connect to anywhere else without data usage?
I only pay to use phone minutes and texts on my phone. Anything else is 'the internet' to me. I don't need it and I'm not paying for it.
-
BigH,
That was kind of my point though. It does need to be embedded behaviour, but before we even get going there's individuals on here saying they won't use it. I guess its from a party political viewpoint.
Its not about politics, its about supporting the NHS in order to get this thing as close to zero as possible, adopting a negative mind set from the get go won't do that.
I think we're sort of agreeing SM; apologies if I misunderstood the thrust of your comment.
For people to diss TTI on the grounds of a political viewpoint is just bizarre. Getting out of the hole that we, as a race are in, transcends mere politics. TTI is a proven approach to trying to resolve a huge public health problem.
The fact that some don't get that bears out my point that gaining the commitment of those who refuse to engage is incredibly important and can't be left to a few people in central government whose focus seems to be on inflicting their own preferred approach.
-
From what I can gather, some people are reluctant to use an app, for fear of privacy breaches.
The manual system relies upon individuals taking part, and then giving out names and contact information of the people they have been in close contact with, perhaps even vicariously admitting to breaching lockdown rules - again there could be data protection concerns.
The manual system also results in some people being asked/told to self isolate for 14 days, but not tested unless they have symptoms. Why not just test them anyway.?
As said before, my concerns with this are practical rather than political.
I fear that there will be a multitude of people who distrust the government because of the Cummings affair, regardless of their own political leanings. They will be less likely to participate, even though it is ideal to run a test and trace system regardless..
-
From what I can gather, some people are reluctant to use an app, for fear of privacy breaches.
The manual system relies upon individuals taking part, and then giving out names and contact information of the people they have been in close contact with, perhaps even vicariously admitting to breaching lockdown rules - again there could be data protection concerns.
The manual system also results in some people being asked/told to self isolate for 14 days, but not tested unless they have symptoms. Why not just test them anyway.?
As said before, my concerns with this are practical rather than political.
I fear that there will be a multitude of people who distrust the government because of the Cummings affair, regardless of their own political leanings. They will be less likely to participate, even though it is ideal to run a test and trace system regardless..
IDM, there were plenty of people on this very forum saying they wouldn’t trust the government with any information that was provided through such an APP.......long before the Cummings affair.
I do agree with you that “why not just test them” is a better option.
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People distrust the government because they believe they have handled the coronavirus outbreak badly, as well as the PM being an habitual liar.
Regardless of party, that’s a sad state of affairs..
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I want the app to work and I want to be able to use it. I’d like to think there’ll be some independent assurances around the storage and processing of personal data. I think that’s perfectly reasonable.
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Trust is the problem right at the heart of this government wouldn't one think?
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Sir Roger Gale, the senior Tory backbencher on R4 again tonight saying he'd been told that TTI had been going to be launched on Monday and the first that he heard about it being launched at 9am today was when Johnson announced it as he was being grilled by the Liaisinn Committee at about 4:30 pm yesterday.
As I keep saying, this Government exists to try to control the media agenda. It is plain as day that they have run this out early to try to move the story on from Cumgate.
Shameful behaviour.
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I can't understand all the negativity towards track & trace here.
Every other country that has done this has seen very positive results from t&t but for some reason we can't?
I don't think there is any real negativity towards track and trace per se. The big problem is the total lack of trust in anything associated with this government. Agreed track and trace has worked well in the rest of the world (US excepted of course) so why did we not follow what has been used abroad? This government are obsessed with Brexit and seem to want to do everything "our way" which is plainly not working.
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I wasn't guessing, I was asking. I'm pretty sure Private Eye said she's a shareholder but I'm not sure which issue it was in.
And T&T shouldn't have been withheld or rushed in. it should have been in place at the same time other countries managed to have it up and running.
But being a shareholder normally means someone is investing in the company, not taking out 'loads of dosh' as you put it. I have no idea if she has invested in the company, but would it be such a crime if she had? Without some proof it seems that there's a rush to be unduly critical before even contemplating checking basic details.
She'd be benefitting from the profits the company will make as a result. Do you not see that as a direct conflict of interest - especially when as far as I know there's been no public tender? And when a working version could I'm sure have been bought off-the-peg from whoever created those used by other countries.
According to full facts she's not his sister....
https://fullfact.org/online/not-dominic-cummings-sister/
Bump.
Gone quiet about this now lads.
Just like you went quiet when challenged to show what posts of yours you accused me of editing?
I've only just seen this and am quite happy to put my hands up and admit I was wrong.
Your turn to do the same now.
Glyn, we both know.
I don't. I have absolutely no idea where you got that ridiculous idea from. Show me or apologise.
"Bump.
Gone quiet about this now lads."
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this from yesterday is definately non-positve
The government’s target of hitting 200,000 Covid-19 daily tests by Monday has been described as “meaningless” by senior scientists, who say that the published data on testing does not adhere to the basic rules of statistics.
Experts told the Guardian the published daily testing figures appeared “almost designed to confuse” and made it impossible to judge whether current levels of testing are adequate to support the track, trace and isolate programme that is said to be essential for easing lockdown.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/28/government-target-of-200000-covid-19-tests-meaningless
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BigH,
That was kind of my point though. It does need to be embedded behaviour, but before we even get going there's individuals on here saying they won't use it. I guess its from a party political viewpoint.
Its not about politics, its about supporting the NHS in order to get this thing as close to zero as possible, adopting a negative mind set from the get go won't do that.
I'm not going to use it for the reasons I've stated and they ain't political.
Yes I know, this is you 'I won't download it because I don't use the internet on the phone'.
You do realise it doesn't use the 'internet' don't you?
How does it connect to anywhere else without data usage?
I only pay to use phone minutes and texts on my phone. Anything else is 'the internet' to me. I don't need it and I'm not paying for it.
To be fair Glynn, maybe you shouldn't be involving yourself in discussions of this sort and making wide sweeping statements about things you don't understand?
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BigH,
That was kind of my point though. It does need to be embedded behaviour, but before we even get going there's individuals on here saying they won't use it. I guess its from a party political viewpoint.
Its not about politics, its about supporting the NHS in order to get this thing as close to zero as possible, adopting a negative mind set from the get go won't do that.
I think we're sort of agreeing SM; apologies if I misunderstood the thrust of your comment.
For people to diss TTI on the grounds of a political viewpoint is just bizarre. Getting out of the hole that we, as a race are in, transcends mere politics. TTI is a proven approach to trying to resolve a huge public health problem.
The fact that some don't get that bears out my point that gaining the commitment of those who refuse to engage is incredibly important and can't be left to a few people in central government whose focus seems to be on inflicting their own preferred approach.
I think we are agreeing.
-
BigH,
That was kind of my point though. It does need to be embedded behaviour, but before we even get going there's individuals on here saying they won't use it. I guess its from a party political viewpoint.
Its not about politics, its about supporting the NHS in order to get this thing as close to zero as possible, adopting a negative mind set from the get go won't do that.
I think we're sort of agreeing SM; apologies if I misunderstood the thrust of your comment.
For people to diss TTI on the grounds of a political viewpoint is just bizarre. Getting out of the hole that we, as a race are in, transcends mere politics. TTI is a proven approach to trying to resolve a huge public health problem.
The fact that some don't get that bears out my point that gaining the commitment of those who refuse to engage is incredibly important and can't be left to a few people in central government whose focus seems to be on inflicting their own preferred approach.
I’m in general agreement with you BigH. Your last para sums up the difficulties however. It is a lack of trust in those few personalities in central government that is the main barrier to T&T succeeding, data protection issues aside.
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BigH,
That was kind of my point though. It does need to be embedded behaviour, but before we even get going there's individuals on here saying they won't use it. I guess its from a party political viewpoint.
Its not about politics, its about supporting the NHS in order to get this thing as close to zero as possible, adopting a negative mind set from the get go won't do that.
I'm not going to use it for the reasons I've stated and they ain't political.
Yes I know, this is you 'I won't download it because I don't use the internet on the phone'.
You do realise it doesn't use the 'internet' don't you?
How does it connect to anywhere else without data usage?
I only pay to use phone minutes and texts on my phone. Anything else is 'the internet' to me. I don't need it and I'm not paying for it.
To be fair Glynn, maybe you shouldn't be involving yourself in discussions of this sort and making wide sweeping statements about things you don't understand?
I understand that I only pay for minutes and texts so the app is no use to me.
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I want the app to work and I want to be able to use it. I’d like to think there’ll be some independent assurances around the storage and processing of personal data. I think that’s perfectly reasonable.
Well we both want to use it and hope it works. But I can't understand this about personal data, it stores so very little and what it does store cannot identify individuals. I just think there's far too much concern over nothing. As a society we hand over personal data all the time, loads of it by the bucket load and none of us bat an eyelid.
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We hand over personal data by choice - for example on a supermarket app they have our name, mobile number and email address. They also have to abide by GDPR rules.
For the manual T&T to work, the person reporting themselves ill has to pass on names and contact details of the people they suspect they have had close contact to - without having got permission from those people to pass on that information.?
Many people won’t mind that - especially as this is a serious health issue - but I expect plenty would object.
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Let's be honest, the chances of Joe Public using this and adhering to the advice given is the same as Cummings and his cohorts collectively deciding to take a trip to Barnard Castle and jumping in the river - zero! For a start, it's not legal as it did not complete mandatory privacy checks before going live. Secondly, it's wide-open to abuse of all kinds.
I'm all for track and trace as it's the only way this terrible disease will be controlled but this is a rushed and inoperable system which is doomed to failure. The European model largely works but Johnson would lose face if he employed and we're right back to this being a political decision made which conflicts with scientific advice.
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That's great SM, but it ignores the context. The trust thing.
Cummings has previous on this. Do you know one of the ways he identified gullible people, in order to bomb their FB feed with (literally) thousands of lies in the run up to the 2016 Election? It's worth reading about if you are properly going to understand why he provokes such a visceral reaction of lack of trust.
He set up a website filled with anti-EU ravings and pushed it widely into FB feeds. On the website was a link to a free-to-enter competition in which you could win £50million by predicting a set of football results. They had been very careful about this and the chances of actually winning were in once-in-the-age-of-the-Universe territory.
They got thousands of applicants, who, by applying, voluntarily gave them access to piles of personal data. Then they used Cambridge Analytica to profile them and decide which (lying) adverts to send to them in the last few days before the vote.
The idea, explictly - he's said so himself - was to identify people who were both inherently anti-EU, and thick as mince, who could then be manipulated.
Now, I'm not saying that is a danger here. But that is a tiny bit of the man's back story. And it is why so many people are instinctively against trusting anything he has any connection with.
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Anyone interested in that data harvesting operation can read about it from para 177 in the DCMS Select Committee report here.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmcumeds/1791/179107.htm#footnote-143
The DCMS wanted to interview Cummings but he refused to attend. He is still in actual breach of Contempt of Parliament rules, while he continues to run our CV-19 policy. Good eh?
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I decided to have a look at these apps that posters say work well around the world, and ask the question 'why didn't we use one of them'? The brief answer to that is there aren't any!
The longer answer to that is that everybody seems to be using their own apps and there is no common agreement on the best way to achieve this. It seems to be about the implementation rather than the technology.
But the surprising thing is there are very few apps actually up and running at the moment as this spreadsheet from MIT shows;
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ATalASO8KtZMx__zJREoOvFh0nmB-sAqJ1-CjVRSCOw/edit#gid=0
If you wish to see the full explanation then MIT have produced this article. They go into some detail on what they consider are the top 25 apps (not all released) but stress there are another 150 in development and the crucial point they make is that none of these have so far proven themselves.
https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/05/07/1000961/launching-mittr-covid-tracing-tracker/
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That's great SM, but it ignores the context. The trust thing.
Cummings has previous on this. Do you know one of the ways he identified gullible people, in order to bomb their FB feed with (literally) thousands of lies in the run up to the 2016 Election? It's worth reading about if you are properly going to understand why he provokes such a visceral reaction of lack of trust.
He set up a website filled with anti-EU ravings and pushed it widely into FB feeds. On the website was a link to a free-to-enter competition in which you could win £50million by predicting a set of football results. They had been very careful about this and the chances of actually winning were in once-in-the-age-of-the-Universe territory.
They got thousands of applicants, who, by applying, voluntarily gave them access to piles of personal data. Then they used Cambridge Analytica to profile them and decide which (lying) adverts to send to them in the last few days before the vote.
The idea, explictly - he's said so himself - was to identify people who were both inherently anti-EU, and thick as mince, who could then be manipulated.
Now, I'm not saying that is a danger here. But that is a tiny bit of the man's back story. And it is why so many people are instinctively against trusting anything he has any connection with.
Sorry BST but I can't go along with your politicisation of everything, and throwing in an example of Cummings doing something during the Brexit debate is hardly relevant.
If memory serves me right you told everybody on here about the app that you had downloaded and used to report every day. You also asked the moderators to make it a sticky on here, that's how you considered it to be so valuable. About 3.3m people downloaded that app, not enough to be truly representative of the UK population.
If we choose to make the NHS app (in partnership with GCHQ) a political argument then its doomed from the start. It should be our duty to use it and promote it. It stores nothing of any value at all, see here;
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/nhs-covid-19-tracking-app-contact-tracing
and yet you wish to make it a 'trust' thing. With that approach we will have to wait for a general election to implement anything!
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I want the app to work and I want to be able to use it. I’d like to think there’ll be some independent assurances around the storage and processing of personal data. I think that’s perfectly reasonable.
Well we both want to use it and hope it works. But I can't understand this about personal data, it stores so very little and what it does store cannot identify individuals. I just think there's far too much concern over nothing. As a society we hand over personal data all the time, loads of it by the bucket load and none of us bat an eyelid.
One of the things which is likely to put people off using the app is that it hasn't been explained properly and in a way that people can feel comfortable about it....
In simple terms, it's a non personalised store and send application. That is, it collects anonymous information about people you come into contact with, stores it on your mobile phone and transmits it over the net to a central depository where it is kept for 28 days before being deleted. That's the shortened version.
Is the information anonymous? Well, it is and it isn't. When you install the app it puts a system generated Key or ID on your phone which is linked to your mobile number and you are required to enter the first half of your postcode, (this latter to help identify affected areas or hotspots in the country). No personal information is recorded by the app.
How does it collect information? The app relies on Bluetooth technology to record the Key of anyone you come into contact with for a specified duration, (nominally 15 minutes), so long as the a) have the app installed on their phone and b) that they have Bluetooth turned on. Your Key will be stored on their mobile simultaneously.
So what happens to all this information? Good question. In the main, probably nothing - it just stays on yours and theirs phones. But if someone develops CV-19 and reports it then they enter this in the App which will require them to upload their last 14 days of recorded data, (Keys), to a central database.
What happens next I hear you ask? Well the 'system' will send a message to all the phones who's Keys indicate that that those phones were 'close to' the affected persons phone advising them to seek medical advice/get tested.
What about the data on the central database? It will be analysed by NHS staff to look for trends/hotspots etc and will be destroyed after 28 days.
Well, that's the theory; and from that it would appear to be a good thing and mostly harmless. I say mostly as it does have a few flaws. Bluetooth technology normally requires that any connection between parties requires the approval or acceptance of the party being connected to, (I'm sure you all come across this 'pairing' your mobile with you car radio etc); however, for the app to work this approval needs to be bypassed within the app, and herein lies a small problem.... It would be possible for a hacker to spoof the app and gain access to your phone with all the itinerant consequences around that and this security aspect is one that's being worked on - hopefully they will fix it before the release.
A second issue with Bluetooth is that it operated further than the 2 metres we are required to separate by and so cold lead to false positives in the notification process. Not that this is a bad thing in itself, any testing is good testing - but it is to be hoped the testing system doesn't thus become significantly overloaded.
The other issue is simply one of trust. Whilst all the documentation regarding the app indicated that all data will be anonymous it is impossible for the app user to see what the app is really doing on your phone. Given this governments record in matter of 'truth', and previous issues with misuse of data by various factions I think this will be the major stumbling block.
Do I think it's a good idea? Emphatically - YES.
Will I install in on my phone? Yes, but I'll be keeping my eyes open in regards to my last point.
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SM
It's not about my opinion. It is about the fact that to make anything like TTI work, the Govt needs to have very high levels of public trust.
What i am saying is that, by their actions both long and short term, they have burned that trust. So there are millions of people out there who will not use any app because they simply don't trust the Govt. What the Govt can or will do with the data is irrelevant. it's about impressions.
I went into this crisis explicitly saying I wanted to give the Govt the benefit of the doubt and cut them some slack. And the result has been a string of lies, deceptions, policy mistakes and half-baked schemes rushed out too quickly to control the news agenda. It is the Government itself which has "politicised everything" in its response. It has prioritised the political optics over competent management. Do not accuse me of "politicising everything" when I point it out. I am no more doing that than you are "politicising everything" by ignoring it.
As for your comments on the Kings College app, I haven't the faintest what point you are trying to make, or its relevance to this discussion.
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I want the app to work and I want to be able to use it. I’d like to think there’ll be some independent assurances around the storage and processing of personal data. I think that’s perfectly reasonable.
Well we both want to use it and hope it works. But I can't understand this about personal data, it stores so very little and what it does store cannot identify individuals. I just think there's far too much concern over nothing. As a society we hand over personal data all the time, loads of it by the bucket load and none of us bat an eyelid.
Double standards here. Of course everyone wants it to work. However you are praising a government that has been incompetent throughout all of this,and probably as the only moderator left on here you removed my post for the contrary.
I think you've spent too much time digging up England at football,getting so nationalistic that you thin k that is the norm. You have deleted posts as they dont follow your flag waving,nationalistic shite.
I gave up on flag waving shite after France 98. So many racist cnuts about it was incredible
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I want the app to work and I want to be able to use it. I’d like to think there’ll be some independent assurances around the storage and processing of personal data. I think that’s perfectly reasonable.
Well we both want to use it and hope it works. But I can't understand this about personal data, it stores so very little and what it does store cannot identify individuals. I just think there's far too much concern over nothing. As a society we hand over personal data all the time, loads of it by the bucket load and none of us bat an eyelid.
Double standards here. Of course everyone wants it to work. However you are praising a government that has been incompetent throughout all of this,and probably as the only moderator left on here you removed my post for the contrary.
I think you've spent too much time digging up England at football,getting so nationalistic that you thin k that is the norm. You have deleted posts as they dont follow your flag waving,nationalistic shite.
I gave up on flag waving shite after France 98. So many racist cnuts about it was incredible
What absolute tosh!
You don't know my political leanings at all, and if you can find a post from me that praises this government then go ahead prove me wrong!
And I'm certainly not the only moderator left on here, whatever gave you that impression? Yes I did delete your post, and I did it for two reasons, one, I quite explicitly said that political posts on that thread would be deleted and the 2nd point was you accused me of posting pro-government posts which I quite clearly have never done.
But take a cheap shot by labelling all England football fans racists and throwing me in that mix, you could never be further from the truth. And I'm nowhere as near at being nationalistic, flag waver as you make out. Your post are following a trend, total hogwash!
But please, prove me wrong, provide me with some proof of my pro-government, flag waving, nationalistic and, possibly, racist comments.
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I wasn't guessing, I was asking. I'm pretty sure Private Eye said she's a shareholder but I'm not sure which issue it was in.
And T&T shouldn't have been withheld or rushed in. it should have been in place at the same time other countries managed to have it up and running.
But being a shareholder normally means someone is investing in the company, not taking out 'loads of dosh' as you put it. I have no idea if she has invested in the company, but would it be such a crime if she had? Without some proof it seems that there's a rush to be unduly critical before even contemplating checking basic details.
She'd be benefitting from the profits the company will make as a result. Do you not see that as a direct conflict of interest - especially when as far as I know there's been no public tender? And when a working version could I'm sure have been bought off-the-peg from whoever created those used by other countries.
According to full facts she's not his sister....
https://fullfact.org/online/not-dominic-cummings-sister/
Bump.
Gone quiet about this now lads.
Just like you went quiet when challenged to show what posts of yours you accused me of editing?
I've only just seen this and am quite happy to put my hands up and admit I was wrong.
Your turn to do the same now.
Glyn, we both know.
I don't. I have absolutely no idea where you got that ridiculous idea from. Show me or apologise.
"Bump.
Gone quiet about this now lads."
I’m back.
I was going to reply at lunchtime and had made a comment on the post that began this to make things easier for you, ( it says 29/05/20....it begins here GW), but I got a call which required me to go and do a repair job at one of the renters and also meant me missing my lunch.
Don’t worry though, it was local and was an outside job.
I got back an hour ago and after catching up with some food I can now help you out.
Look on the Coronavirus thread, post number 4144.
The quote of mine that you used was
“You haven’t answered the question I put to you.
Nice deflection attempt”.
That was because you didn’t fully answer what I had asked.
Further down the thread, post 4147, you quote my post but only the “nice deflection” bit and it has been added to a post which includes offerings from Filo.
You then asked me “from what”.
My “nice deflection” words were in a different context and place to where I had originally written it.
I was puzzled as to why it was there.
I suggested that you had done some clever editing and to be honest I don’t know how it was done.
There were some posts exchanged between us and in post 4156 in response to one of your abusive lines I wrote “yeah right”.
You couldn’t resist taunting me so in post 4158 you changed my “yeah right” words to “yeah YOU’RE right” and made it appear that I had written it.
You even said “now that is how to edit a post”.
In post 4159 I thanked you for proving my point.
So to sum up, it appears that you edited the words in one of my posts and carefully (somehow) rearranged another post and left out part of what I said.
I hope this helps.
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I want the app to work and I want to be able to use it. I’d like to think there’ll be some independent assurances around the storage and processing of personal data. I think that’s perfectly reasonable.
Well we both want to use it and hope it works. But I can't understand this about personal data, it stores so very little and what it does store cannot identify individuals. I just think there's far too much concern over nothing. As a society we hand over personal data all the time, loads of it by the bucket load and none of us bat an eyelid.
Double standards here. Of course everyone wants it to work. However you are praising a government that has been incompetent throughout all of this,and probably as the only moderator left on here you removed my post for the contrary.
I think you've spent too much time digging up England at football,getting so nationalistic that you thin k that is the norm. You have deleted posts as they dont follow your flag waving,nationalistic shite.
I gave up on flag waving shite after France 98. So many racist cnuts about it was incredible
What absolute tosh!
You don't know my political leanings at all, and if you can find a post from me that praises this government then go ahead prove me wrong!
And I'm certainly not the only moderator left on here, whatever gave you that impression? Yes I did delete your post, and I did it for two reasons, one, I quite explicitly said that political posts on that thread would be deleted and the 2nd point was you accused me of posting pro-government posts which I quite clearly have never done.
But take a cheap shot by labelling all England football fans racists and throwing me in that mix, you could never be further from the truth. And I'm nowhere as near at being nationalistic, flag waver as you make out. Your post are following a trend, total hogwash!
But please, prove me wrong, provide me with some proof of my pro-government, flag waving, nationalistic and, possibly, racist comments.
Well said Martin.
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I want the app to work and I want to be able to use it. I’d like to think there’ll be some independent assurances around the storage and processing of personal data. I think that’s perfectly reasonable.
Well we both want to use it and hope it works. But I can't understand this about personal data, it stores so very little and what it does store cannot identify individuals. I just think there's far too much concern over nothing. As a society we hand over personal data all the time, loads of it by the bucket load and none of us bat an eyelid.
Double standards here. Of course everyone wants it to work. However you are praising a government that has been incompetent throughout all of this,and probably as the only moderator left on here you removed my post for the contrary.
I think you've spent too much time digging up England at football,getting so nationalistic that you thin k that is the norm. You have deleted posts as they dont follow your flag waving,nationalistic shite.
I gave up on flag waving shite after France 98. So many racist cnuts about it was incredible
What absolute tosh!
You don't know my political leanings at all, and if you can find a post from me that praises this government then go ahead prove me wrong!
And I'm certainly not the only moderator left on here, whatever gave you that impression? Yes I did delete your post, and I did it for two reasons, one, I quite explicitly said that political posts on that thread would be deleted and the 2nd point was you accused me of posting pro-government posts which I quite clearly have never done.
But take a cheap shot by labelling all England football fans racists and throwing me in that mix, you could never be further from the truth. And I'm nowhere as near at being nationalistic, flag waver as you make out. Your post are following a trend, total hogwash!
But please, prove me wrong, provide me with some proof of my pro-government, flag waving, nationalistic and, possibly, racist comments.
Well said Martin.
Seconded by me.
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Thirded!
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Fourthed
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Back on topic, here's at least two senior SAGE members who think we are going about easing the lockdown incorrectly.
Have you noticed how "We follow the science" has more or less dropped off the radar recently?
EDIT:
Tends to work better if I actually post the link I'm referring to...
https://twitter.com/JeremyFarrar/status/1266470822564200456
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''One of the standout moments of yesterday’s Downing Street briefing was Boris Johnson twice stopping his two most senior scientific advisors, Prof Chris Whitty and Sir Patrick Vallance, from answering questions about Dominic Cummings. Johnson said he wanted to protect them from “any political questions”.
However, Prof Stephen Reicher, a member of the Sage subcommittee advising the government on behavioural science, says that asking whether the Cummings affair has impacted public trust in the government was, in fact, a scientific question and could reasonably be posed to the government’s advisers''
So they can only speak with the governments approval? what next suppression of the media?
Getting more trump like by the day.
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And yet no Govt minister ever stopped scientific advisers answering briefing questions on PPE or Herd Immunity in a way which supported the Govt approach.
Obviously that wasn't them getting involved in politics, I suppose.
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I wasn't guessing, I was asking. I'm pretty sure Private Eye said she's a shareholder but I'm not sure which issue it was in.
And T&T shouldn't have been withheld or rushed in. it should have been in place at the same time other countries managed to have it up and running.
But being a shareholder normally means someone is investing in the company, not taking out 'loads of dosh' as you put it. I have no idea if she has invested in the company, but would it be such a crime if she had? Without some proof it seems that there's a rush to be unduly critical before even contemplating checking basic details.
She'd be benefitting from the profits the company will make as a result. Do you not see that as a direct conflict of interest - especially when as far as I know there's been no public tender? And when a working version could I'm sure have been bought off-the-peg from whoever created those used by other countries.
According to full facts she's not his sister....
https://fullfact.org/online/not-dominic-cummings-sister/
Bump.
Gone quiet about this now lads.
Just like you went quiet when challenged to show what posts of yours you accused me of editing?
I've only just seen this and am quite happy to put my hands up and admit I was wrong.
Your turn to do the same now.
Glyn, we both know.
I don't. I have absolutely no idea where you got that ridiculous idea from. Show me or apologise.
"Bump.
Gone quiet about this now lads."
I’m back.
I was going to reply at lunchtime and had made a comment on the post that began this to make things easier for you, ( it says 29/05/20....it begins here GW), but I got a call which required me to go and do a repair job at one of the renters and also meant me missing my lunch.
Don’t worry though, it was local and was an outside job.
I got back an hour ago and after catching up with some food I can now help you out.
Look on the Coronavirus thread, post number 4144.
The quote of mine that you used was
“You haven’t answered the question I put to you.
Nice deflection attempt”.
That was because you didn’t fully answer what I had asked.
Further down the thread, post 4147, you quote my post but only the “nice deflection” bit and it has been added to a post which includes offerings from Filo.
You then asked me “from what”.
My “nice deflection” words were in a different context and place to where I had originally written it.
I was puzzled as to why it was there.
I suggested that you had done some clever editing and to be honest I don’t know how it was done.
There were some posts exchanged between us and in post 4156 in response to one of your abusive lines I wrote “yeah right”.
You couldn’t resist taunting me so in post 4158 you changed my “yeah right” words to “yeah YOU’RE right” and made it appear that I had written it.
You even said “now that is how to edit a post”.
In post 4159 I thanked you for proving my point.
So to sum up, it appears that you edited the words in one of my posts and carefully (somehow) rearranged another post and left out part of what I said.
I hope this helps.
The 'nice deflection attempt was in a post you made at 01:38:52 that I was replying to - I can't create posts that I'm replying to...but now that post has mysteriously disappeared, like someone has deleted it after I quoted it. I looks like you deleted it after you wrote it because you realised you'd replied to the wrong post, but that it was deleted after I'd started to reply to your post so it was quoted because it was still there at the time. It also explains why I had no idea what the hell you were talking about.
But that begs the question as to why you deliberately edited post 4144 yesterday when there was absolutely no need to. It almost looks like someone has been tampering with the evidence and wanted to cover it.
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Maybe it was cummings? :)
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Maybe it was cummings? :)
Well, going from a direct accusation of post-editing in post 4149 of that thread to now only being a 'suggestion' of it does smack of Cummings' style of reverse ferreting.
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I wasn't guessing, I was asking. I'm pretty sure Private Eye said she's a shareholder but I'm not sure which issue it was in.
And T&T shouldn't have been withheld or rushed in. it should have been in place at the same time other countries managed to have it up and running.
But being a shareholder normally means someone is investing in the company, not taking out 'loads of dosh' as you put it. I have no idea if she has invested in the company, but would it be such a crime if she had? Without some proof it seems that there's a rush to be unduly critical before even contemplating checking basic details.
She'd be benefitting from the profits the company will make as a result. Do you not see that as a direct conflict of interest - especially when as far as I know there's been no public tender? And when a working version could I'm sure have been bought off-the-peg from whoever created those used by other countries.
According to full facts she's not his sister....
https://fullfact.org/online/not-dominic-cummings-sister/
Bump.
Gone quiet about this now lads.
Just like you went quiet when challenged to show what posts of yours you accused me of editing?
I've only just seen this and am quite happy to put my hands up and admit I was wrong.
Your turn to do the same now.
Glyn, we both know.
I don't. I have absolutely no idea where you got that ridiculous idea from. Show me or apologise.
"Bump.
Gone quiet about this now lads."
I’m back.
I was going to reply at lunchtime and had made a comment on the post that began this to make things easier for you, ( it says 29/05/20....it begins here GW), but I got a call which required me to go and do a repair job at one of the renters and also meant me missing my lunch.
Don’t worry though, it was local and was an outside job.
I got back an hour ago and after catching up with some food I can now help you out.
Look on the Coronavirus thread, post number 4144.
The quote of mine that you used was
“You haven’t answered the question I put to you.
Nice deflection attempt”.
That was because you didn’t fully answer what I had asked.
Further down the thread, post 4147, you quote my post but only the “nice deflection” bit and it has been added to a post which includes offerings from Filo.
You then asked me “from what”.
My “nice deflection” words were in a different context and place to where I had originally written it.
I was puzzled as to why it was there.
I suggested that you had done some clever editing and to be honest I don’t know how it was done.
There were some posts exchanged between us and in post 4156 in response to one of your abusive lines I wrote “yeah right”.
You couldn’t resist taunting me so in post 4158 you changed my “yeah right” words to “yeah YOU’RE right” and made it appear that I had written it.
You even said “now that is how to edit a post”.
In post 4159 I thanked you for proving my point.
So to sum up, it appears that you edited the words in one of my posts and carefully (somehow) rearranged another post and left out part of what I said.
I hope this helps.
The 'nice deflection attempt was in a post you made at 01:38:52 that I was replying to - I can't create posts that I'm replying to...but now that post has mysteriously disappeared, like someone has deleted it after I quoted it. I looks like you deleted it after you wrote it because you realised you'd replied to the wrong post, but that it was deleted after I'd started to reply to your post so it was quoted because it was still there at the time. It also explains why I had no idea what the hell you were talking about.
But that begs the question as to why you deliberately edited post 4144 yesterday when there was absolutely no need to. It almost looks like someone has been tampering with the evidence and wanted to cover it.
But you can create posts that you are replying to.....you proved it by changing “yeah right” to “yeah you’re right”.
Creative editing.
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The issue with T+T is who owns the data, and whether it is secure from re-use by third parties.
Do you have the right to determine the level of security that applies to your information, and can you retain the right to access and delete?
There is an outline summary of concerns here;
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/coronavirus-track-and-trace-nhs-trust
A further concern is compliance with GDPR.
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Personal data is always a concern NHS GP data was sold to the US big pharma and the public not consulted, I can understand the apprehension lots of questions were asked here too and far from everyone has got the app.
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I wasn't guessing, I was asking. I'm pretty sure Private Eye said she's a shareholder but I'm not sure which issue it was in.
And T&T shouldn't have been withheld or rushed in. it should have been in place at the same time other countries managed to have it up and running.
But being a shareholder normally means someone is investing in the company, not taking out 'loads of dosh' as you put it. I have no idea if she has invested in the company, but would it be such a crime if she had? Without some proof it seems that there's a rush to be unduly critical before even contemplating checking basic details.
She'd be benefitting from the profits the company will make as a result. Do you not see that as a direct conflict of interest - especially when as far as I know there's been no public tender? And when a working version could I'm sure have been bought off-the-peg from whoever created those used by other countries.
According to full facts she's not his sister....
https://fullfact.org/online/not-dominic-cummings-sister/
Bump.
Gone quiet about this now lads.
Just like you went quiet when challenged to show what posts of yours you accused me of editing?
I've only just seen this and am quite happy to put my hands up and admit I was wrong.
Your turn to do the same now.
Glyn, we both know.
I don't. I have absolutely no idea where you got that ridiculous idea from. Show me or apologise.
"Bump.
Gone quiet about this now lads."
I’m back.
I was going to reply at lunchtime and had made a comment on the post that began this to make things easier for you, ( it says 29/05/20....it begins here GW), but I got a call which required me to go and do a repair job at one of the renters and also meant me missing my lunch.
Don’t worry though, it was local and was an outside job.
I got back an hour ago and after catching up with some food I can now help you out.
Look on the Coronavirus thread, post number 4144.
The quote of mine that you used was
“You haven’t answered the question I put to you.
Nice deflection attempt”.
That was because you didn’t fully answer what I had asked.
Further down the thread, post 4147, you quote my post but only the “nice deflection” bit and it has been added to a post which includes offerings from Filo.
You then asked me “from what”.
My “nice deflection” words were in a different context and place to where I had originally written it.
I was puzzled as to why it was there.
I suggested that you had done some clever editing and to be honest I don’t know how it was done.
There were some posts exchanged between us and in post 4156 in response to one of your abusive lines I wrote “yeah right”.
You couldn’t resist taunting me so in post 4158 you changed my “yeah right” words to “yeah YOU’RE right” and made it appear that I had written it.
You even said “now that is how to edit a post”.
In post 4159 I thanked you for proving my point.
So to sum up, it appears that you edited the words in one of my posts and carefully (somehow) rearranged another post and left out part of what I said.
I hope this helps.
The 'nice deflection attempt was in a post you made at 01:38:52 that I was replying to - I can't create posts that I'm replying to...but now that post has mysteriously disappeared, like someone has deleted it after I quoted it. I looks like you deleted it after you wrote it because you realised you'd replied to the wrong post, but that it was deleted after I'd started to reply to your post so it was quoted because it was still there at the time. It also explains why I had no idea what the hell you were talking about.
But that begs the question as to why you deliberately edited post 4144 yesterday when there was absolutely no need to. It almost looks like someone has been tampering with the evidence and wanted to cover it.
But you can create posts that you are replying to.....you proved it by changing “yeah right” to “yeah you’re right”.
Creative editing.
That was an edit to a post, to demonstrate what you were accusing me of - and what had not happened in any way, and not what you are now accusing me of having done.
I didn't create a post out of nothing that I then replied to, because I can't do that. Are you saying that you're able to do that when I can't?
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The issue with T+T is who owns the data, and whether it is secure from re-use by third parties.
Do you have the right to determine the level of security that applies to your information, and can you retain the right to access and delete?
There is an outline summary of concerns here;
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/coronavirus-track-and-trace-nhs-trust
A further concern is compliance with GDPR.
There is no personal data stored by the system - see my post earlier in the thread for how it works.
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I’m lost with all the quotes in quotes in quotes.. time to drop it.?
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I’m lost with all the quotes in quotes in quotes.. time to drop it.?
Would you want to drop it when you've been accused of a despicable act when you've done no such thing?
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I wasn't guessing, I was asking. I'm pretty sure Private Eye said she's a shareholder but I'm not sure which issue it was in.
And T&T shouldn't have been withheld or rushed in. it should have been in place at the same time other countries managed to have it up and running.
But being a shareholder normally means someone is investing in the company, not taking out 'loads of dosh' as you put it. I have no idea if she has invested in the company, but would it be such a crime if she had? Without some proof it seems that there's a rush to be unduly critical before even contemplating checking basic details.
She'd be benefitting from the profits the company will make as a result. Do you not see that as a direct conflict of interest - especially when as far as I know there's been no public tender? And when a working version could I'm sure have been bought off-the-peg from whoever created those used by other countries.
According to full facts she's not his sister....
https://fullfact.org/online/not-dominic-cummings-sister/
Bump.
Gone quiet about this now lads.
Just like you went quiet when challenged to show what posts of yours you accused me of editing?
I've only just seen this and am quite happy to put my hands up and admit I was wrong.
Your turn to do the same now.
Glyn, we both know.
I don't. I have absolutely no idea where you got that ridiculous idea from. Show me or apologise.
"Bump.
Gone quiet about this now lads."
I’m back.
I was going to reply at lunchtime and had made a comment on the post that began this to make things easier for you, ( it says 29/05/20....it begins here GW), but I got a call which required me to go and do a repair job at one of the renters and also meant me missing my lunch.
Don’t worry though, it was local and was an outside job.
I got back an hour ago and after catching up with some food I can now help you out.
Look on the Coronavirus thread, post number 4144.
The quote of mine that you used was
“You haven’t answered the question I put to you.
Nice deflection attempt”.
That was because you didn’t fully answer what I had asked.
Further down the thread, post 4147, you quote my post but only the “nice deflection” bit and it has been added to a post which includes offerings from Filo.
You then asked me “from what”.
My “nice deflection” words were in a different context and place to where I had originally written it.
I was puzzled as to why it was there.
I suggested that you had done some clever editing and to be honest I don’t know how it was done.
There were some posts exchanged between us and in post 4156 in response to one of your abusive lines I wrote “yeah right”.
You couldn’t resist taunting me so in post 4158 you changed my “yeah right” words to “yeah YOU’RE right” and made it appear that I had written it.
You even said “now that is how to edit a post”.
In post 4159 I thanked you for proving my point.
So to sum up, it appears that you edited the words in one of my posts and carefully (somehow) rearranged another post and left out part of what I said.
I hope this helps.
The 'nice deflection attempt was in a post you made at 01:38:52 that I was replying to - I can't create posts that I'm replying to...but now that post has mysteriously disappeared, like someone has deleted it after I quoted it. I looks like you deleted it after you wrote it because you realised you'd replied to the wrong post, but that it was deleted after I'd started to reply to your post so it was quoted because it was still there at the time. It also explains why I had no idea what the hell you were talking about.
But that begs the question as to why you deliberately edited post 4144 yesterday when there was absolutely no need to. It almost looks like someone has been tampering with the evidence and wanted to cover it.
But you can create posts that you are replying to.....you proved it by changing “yeah right” to “yeah you’re right”.
Creative editing.
That was an edit to a post, to demonstrate what you were accusing me of - and what had not happened in any way, and not what you are now accusing me of having done.
I didn't create a post out of nothing that I then replied to, because I can't do that. Are you saying that you're able to do that when I can't?
Yes it was an edit to a post, you edited my post.
I don’t know how to do that but you evidently do.
Anyway, I am prepared to drop it as IDM suggests.
No more from me on this subject, I am bored of it now.
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The only way I could have done what you're accusing me of if if I hacked your account, made the post that I quoted but has now disappeared(!), gone back into my account, quoted it, hacked your account again and then deleted it.
All you can claim is 'I don't know how you could possibly have done it but I'm right and that's that.' Absolutely no acknowledgement at all that you might not be right.
Fecking ridiculous paranoia. I'm almost in the mindset to contact a mod and ask what happened to the disappeared post and exactly what you edits you made yesterday.
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The issue with T+T is who owns the data, and whether it is secure from re-use by third parties.
Do you have the right to determine the level of security that applies to your information, and can you retain the right to access and delete?
There is an outline summary of concerns here;
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/coronavirus-track-and-trace-nhs-trust
A further concern is compliance with GDPR.
There is no personal data stored by the system - see my post earlier in the thread for how it works.
NNK,
It is easy to de-anonymise personal data if cross referenced with other data sources.
The information contained in a NHS app is very valuable to a whole range of commercial interests, hence the concern at the allocation of contracts to private sector providers, and the export of NHS data to other jurisdictions under existing contractual agreements.
Article here on the Serco interest, and the involvement of Talk Talk in the deal;
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/revealed-serco-under-fire-over-fresh-90m-covid-19-contract/
Trapped between the devil and the deep blue sea here.
The App needs to be fully functioning before the release of lockdown, but is being rushed because of the government comms requirement to get the economy flowing.
At the same time, key safeguards have not been tried and tested in the App to ensure public safety and full confidence.
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This is a bit scary
''Why I quit working on Boris Johnson's ‘world-beating' test-and-tracing system''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/30/boris-johnsons-test-and-tracing-system-britain-lockdown
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This is a bit scary
''Why I quit working on Boris Johnson's ‘world-beating' test-and-tracing system''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/30/boris-johnsons-test-and-tracing-system-britain-lockdown
It looks like it's only going to be 'world-beating' in the sense of it being a 'world-beating' waste of money because by the time it's fit for purpose it won't be needed any more.
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If that is true, there needs to be a groundswell of similar evidence to prove this is a shambles?
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What's the betting that even if it is a complete shambles, the contracted software 'developer' stills gets paid in full?
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Won't be needed anymore? Ah, so this is the last epidemic we'll ever have! Thank f**k for that.
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Won't be needed anymore? Ah, so this is the last epidemic we'll ever have! Thank f**k for that.
So you think using a rubbish system there's no guarantee of ever being fit for purpose at the time that another pandemic happens is a good idea eh? Thank f**k for that. Now, if we asked South Korea if we could use theirs it'd be a good idea as we know that it works.
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I was referring to by the time it is fit for purpose like you were!
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Perhaps he meant that by the time this TT system became fit for purpose, there would have been another deadly wave off the virus, something which TT is supposed to help prevent.?
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Na. He said "by the time it's fit for purpose it won't be needed any more."
I think there is a strong possibility it will be needed, and having it in place will be a massive step forward.
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My example BB means TT would not be needed because the spread of the virus would always be ahead of it.
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Won't be needed anymore? Ah, so this is the last epidemic we'll ever have! Thank f**k for that.
So you think using a rubbish system there's no guarantee of ever being fit for purpose at the time that another pandemic happens is a good idea eh? Thank f**k for that. Now, if we asked South Korea if we could use theirs it'd be a good idea as we know that it works.
Use South Koreas what?
Are you talking about an app? You know, the sort of thing you'll not use?
Or a manual T&T system? If so how the heck do you use something based in another country?
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The UK should analyse what other countries have done with TT (successfully) and take what can be observed as “best practise”.
I don’t know if they have done that or not.?
I’m all for TT, even an imperfect solution, but it still needs to be effective to a large degree.
Pushing something out for the purpose of hitting a largely arbitrary (political.?) target date is doing it for the wrong reason.
It’s a bit like announcing lockdown relaxation measures on a Thursday, but don’t allow them to come into force until Monday to give people “time to prepare”..
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The UK should analyse what other countries have done with TT (successfully) and take what can be observed as “best practise”.
I don’t know if they have done that or not.?
I’m all for TT, even an imperfect solution, but it still needs to be effective to a large degree.
Pushing something out for the purpose of hitting a largely arbitrary (political.?) target date is doing it for the wrong reason.
It’s a bit like announcing lockdown relaxation measures on a Thursday, but don’t allow them to come into force until Monday to give people “time to prepare”..
The post I made in #87 earlier in this thread and the links I provided to the research done by MIT suggests that none of these apps work effectively yet, there are only 25 that are either running or in trials whereas there are another 150 in development. Effectively we're no better or worse than anyone else at this stage.
However the manual T&T in the Asian regions had a head start due to their recent experience with SARS. We do have an effective team which has been in place for some time, its the expansion of those numbers which is currently causing the issues.
A bit of balance in some posts wouldn't go amiss.
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Won't be needed anymore? Ah, so this is the last epidemic we'll ever have! Thank f**k for that.
So you think using a rubbish system there's no guarantee of ever being fit for purpose at the time that another pandemic happens is a good idea eh? Thank f**k for that. Now, if we asked South Korea if we could use theirs it'd be a good idea as we know that it works.
Use South Koreas what?
Are you talking about an app? You know, the sort of thing you'll not use?
Or a manual T&T system? If so how the heck do you use something based in another country?
I meant the T&T system they have very successfully applied in South Korea. I know it wouldn't be an instant fit in this country but this country could certainly learn from it. It was known about before coronavirus because the Koreans have had the experience of fighting SARS and MERS in the past and honing their response. I just don't get why we haven't learnt from their experience and decided to do something from scratch after the pandemic started.
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Won't be needed anymore? Ah, so this is the last epidemic we'll ever have! Thank f**k for that.
So you think using a rubbish system there's no guarantee of ever being fit for purpose at the time that another pandemic happens is a good idea eh? Thank f**k for that. Now, if we asked South Korea if we could use theirs it'd be a good idea as we know that it works.
Use South Koreas what?
Are you talking about an app? You know, the sort of thing you'll not use?
Or a manual T&T system? If so how the heck do you use something based in another country?
I meant the T&T system they have very successfully applied in South Korea. I know it wouldn't be an instant fit in this country but this country could certainly learn from it. It was known about before coronavirus because the Koreans have had the experience of fighting SARS and MERS in the past and honing their response. I just don't get why we haven't learnt from their experience and decided to do something from scratch after the pandemic started.
We didn't do something from scratch!
We have an effective T&T team in place, it just wasn't big enough to cope with this pandemic and was overrun in the early days.
I fail to see how looking at S Korea, who don't have an app by the way, could teach us how to run a TTI system. As I've said before, its the scaling up of the system that's the problem not the system itself.
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The concept of manaul T&T has been around for decades? a tv doc used a much simplified and smaller scale version in around 2016. All the discussions around SARS etc Cygnus etc should really have prompted the government to work towards this before the pandemic was on the doorstep and this goes for all other countries too.
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SM
Agreed, we have had a TTI capability in place for years. It clearly wasn't effective because it was overwhelmed in late Feb. That is why the epidemic got out of control.
That's not a party political comment. It's just a fact.
And yes, we do now face the problem of massively upscaling our TTI capability. And it's very good to see that we are doing this. It just seems to me to be very dangerous to be easing the lockdown while that system is not yet close to being bedded in, while we still have a high level of new daily cases and a R value very close to 1.
And it's not just me that thinks that policy decision is dangerous. It's also several members of SAGE who went on record saying precisely that yesterday.
Which makes me wonder why the Govt is running so quickly to ease the lockdown. And then it DOES become political.
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BST,
We are making the same point, however what's not a fact is that we were overrun in late February. On the 27th Feb we had 13 known cases in the UK and no deaths, that's not being overrun.
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SM
SM.
I think the word "known" in your post is the operative one. The actual number of cases is estimated to be many times that by the end of Feb. Certainly, having Many tens of deaths per day three weeks later does not in any way square with is having just 13 actual cases by end Feb. It actually suggests that the cases at the end of Feb were in the thousands. That shows that out TTI system was not remotely effective at actually finding the cases in the early stages.
As I say, I'm not trying to make a political point about this, but it appears self-evident that we lost control from a very early stage, when numbers were much lower than they are now and we had what we thought was a well-established TTI system.
That says to me that we should proceed with extreme caution now.
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BST,
I'm not disagreeing with most of what you say above, but I do object to you stating that the TTI system was overrun in late February was a fact. You don't know that. It might have been overrun by the time the lockdown was introduced, and clearly was one of the main considerations for introducing a lockdown, but you can't state that it was a fact in late February.
That's simply the point I wish to make, you don't have to emphasise your point by stating something which you can't substantiate.
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BST,
I'm not disagreeing with most of what you say above, but I do object to you stating that the TTI system was overrun in late February was a fact. You don't know that. It might have been overrun by the time the lockdown was introduced, and clearly was one of the main considerations for introducing a lockdown, but you can't state that it was a fact in late February.
That's simply the point I wish to make, you don't have to emphasise your point by stating something which you can't substantiate.
I think it’s a perfectly reasonable assumption based on the escalation of the situation. The warning on the limited tracing capacity is documented in the SAGE minutes on 18th February and routine testing ended on 12th March, still a couple of weeks ahead of lockdown. I would argue that those timings do substantiate a reasonable conclusion that the tracing capability was already at the point of being overrun by the end of February.
Let’s all hope that the flaws in the scaled up relaunch can be ironed out quickly. I thought the whole point of the lockdown was to protect existing capacity and prepare the measures that need to be taken to support a relaxation. Whichever way you look at it, app or no app, our system does appear to be lagging behind other parts of the world. I take no pleasure in saying that, I want it to work. We all need it to. Few could argue it’s fit for purpose nationwide, yet.
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SM
It's very simple and entirely explicable. Follow the logic.
The generally accepted figures are that the Infection Fatality Ratio is about 1%, and the average time from infection to death is 18-28 days.
Agreed?
Now, you quote, correctly, that the total number of KNOWN CV-19 cases in the UK was 13 on 27 Feb.
But, 18-28 days from then is 16-26 March.
There were 16 deaths on 16 March. 183 on 26 March.
The average number of DAILY deaths between 16-26 March was about 85 per day.
There is simply no way that you are getting 85 deaths per day, if you only had 13 total cases on 27 Feb with an IFR of 1% and ~23 days infection to death. It is simply not possible.
85 deaths per day around 20 March, with IFR of 1% and ~23 days infection to death, with Primary school.maths says that we had several thousand cases in late Feb.
There is no arguing that logic if you accept the premises, and the premises have been confirmed, more or less, in lots of independent assessments.
So, actually, yes I CAN say that the TTI system was pretty much totally ineffective by late Feb. It was almost certainly picking up fewer than 1% of the actual number of infections. Which means we had totally lost control.
I'm not pointing fingers in saying that. It's just a simple application of logic.
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SM/BST,
The CSO Patrick Vallance pointed out in mid April that T+T was not developed quickly enough;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/14/england-coronavirus-testing-has-not-risen-fast-enough-science-chief
While the UK has increased capacity for testing since then, the T+T infrastructure is still not at a point that lockdown can be relaxed. It is still some time away.
Despite that, the political decision to release lockdown has been made.
If you know of any scientific opinion which supports that decision, please post a link....I am not aware of such advice.
Off camera expansion of mortuary capacity suggests that the UK knows that a second wave is imminient, in late June/early July. The T+T system may be fully operational by the next peak.
This is a decision taken in the knowledge of consequences for the vulnerable, that much is clear.
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Hasn't one of the experts come out and said that the system just coulldn't cope and that was why they stopped it?
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One of my pals has a “friend” who is a habitual burglar.
The burglar friend has said that there is no way he will download the T&T App.
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More evidence that the actual number of CV-19 infections in the UK was way higher than the officially recorded number at the end of Feb comes from the Kings College tracker project.
https://covid.joinzoe.com/data#levels-over-time
Their study suggests that there were more than 2 million symptomatic cases on 1 April. It is generally found that half the total cases are asymptomatic, so it's reasonable to assume that the total number of cases in the UK on 1 April was around 4million.
1 April is 34 days after 27 Feb.
Before lockdown, pretty much every country in the world had an outbreak where the number of cases was doubling every 3.5 or so days.
So that means ten doublings between 27 Feb and 1 April. 10 doublings means an increase of 1000x.
So that indicates that we had something like 4000 actual infections in the UK on 27 Feb. whereas the official recorded number was 13.
Even if you ignore the asymptomatic cases, the KC study would have to be out by a factor of nearly 200 to tie in with here only being 13 cases on 27 Feb. That is simply not credible.
Alternatively, for the number of cases to increase from 13 on 27 Feb to 4million on 1 April, the doubling time would have had to be 1.9 days throughout March. No country in the world has seen a doubling time as low as that.
As I say, everything points to the actual number of cases in the UK at the end of Feb being in the thousands - high hundreds at the very least if you stretch every possible allowance to breaking point.
So a TTI system that had 13 recorded cases was simply not functioning in any way that could have made a serious effect on containing the epidemic. the only possible solution from then was a lockdown. And we chose not to do that for another 4 weeks, with the devastating results that we have seen.
Had we locked down just two weeks earlier, we would now be looking like Germany. Instead of like Brazil.
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More evidence that the actual number of CV-19 infections in the UK was way higher than the officially recorded number at the end of Feb comes from the Kings College tracker project.
https://covid.joinzoe.com/data#levels-over-time
Their study suggests that there were more than 2 million symptomatic cases on 1 April. It is generally found that half the total cases are asymptomatic, so it's reasonable to assume that the total number of cases in the UK on 1 April was around 4million.
1 April is 34 days after 27 Feb.
Before lockdown, pretty much every country in the world had an outbreak where the number of cases was doubling every 3.5 or so days.
So that means ten doublings between 27 Feb and 1 April. 10 doublings means an increase of 1000x.
So that indicates that we had something like 4000 actual infections in the UK on 27 Feb. whereas the official recorded number was 13.
Even if you ignore the asymptomatic cases, the KC study would have to be out by a factor of nearly 200 to tie in with here only being 13 cases on 27 Feb. That is simply not credible.
Alternatively, for the number of cases to increase from 13 on 27 Feb to 4million on 1 April, the doubling time would have had to be 1.9 days throughout March. No country in the world has seen a doubling time as low as that.
As I say, everything points to the actual number of cases in the UK at the end of Feb being in the thousands - high hundreds at the very least if you stretch every possible allowance to breaking point.
So a TTI system that had 13 recorded cases was simply not functioning in any way that could have made a serious effect on containing the epidemic. the only possible solution from then was a lockdown. And we chose not to do that for another 4 weeks, with the devastating results that we have seen.
Had we locked down just two weeks earlier, we would now be looking like Germany. Instead of like Brazil.
And thats why when the penny finally dropped, they had to throw the kitchen sink at it financially, and that is why we are easing lockdown early, to protect the economy regardless of the death toll
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There's no question Filo that the economy hawks in the Cabinet have won.
Given where our current situation is, it will take superb management to avoid a serious second wave and lockdown. I truly, truly want the Govt to prove me wrong, but every instinct says they are not up to the task.
The BMJ has written an excoriating editorial this weekend more or less pleading with the CSA and CMO to examine their conscience and speak out publicly on this.
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Back to the crucial data question.
Some on here seem very relaxed about sharing their data, and unconcerned about who holds that data and for what purposes it might be applied.
I would suggest considering why Palantir want this information;
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-trump-backers-spy-firm-lobbied-gove-hancock-before-winning-key-nhs-contract/
From that, you need to be sure that they are an ethical organisation, committed to the public interest in the use of such material.
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I won't need to dwell to long on that question, albie.
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Not the most auspicious start for TTI.
https://mobile.twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1271049487310561280
There were estimated to be about 35000 new infections last week. So that means they haven't traced the contacts of 85% of the newly infected cases.
I'm.sure it will improve, but it looks like it's got a hell of a way to go.
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There's certainly plenty of spare capacity.
They have 25,000 track and trace staff. Between them, last week they contacted 26,000 contacts of people who'd had positive tests.
That's one per week, each.
You might recall Johnson promised we'd have a globally leading TTI system running from 1 June...
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... as a smokescreen to take Cummings out of the headlines
Shameful and shameless behaviour. Im afraid he (Johnson) is a mere clown amongst the PMs we have had on both sides as I have only really known Red and Blue
Remind me someone of the Ivor Biggun Song ...it fits Johnson to a tee
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Fear not, Lady Dildo Harding is in charge.
Great credentials: fully paid up member of the Tory Party and House of Lords, married to a Tory MP, daughter of a Lord, grand daughter of a Field Marshall. Went to Oxford and Harvard. The right type.
Like that other legend, Helen Whately, started off at McKinsey. Not sure what she did. But what the heck, mixed in the right circles.
Used to be CEO of Talk Talk. You know, that company that suffered a cyber attack a few years back that saw the details of 4 million customers divulged. When asked if the affected customer data was encrypted or not, she replied: "The awful truth is that I don’t know". The company later admitted that that little episode had probably cost it £60m and 95,000 lost customers.
Loves horse racing apparently. Sits on the Board of the Jockey Club. Yes, they're the people that run the Cheltenham Gold Cup.
So, there you have it, a world beater to drive delivery of our world beating TTI system.
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The UK couple who went to New Zealand with CV-19.
Apparently the NZ TTI system tracked, traced and isolated 320 contacts in two days!
THAT is what a functioning TTI system looks like.
By contrast, in its first week, our TTI system isolated 3 contacts per infection in 7 days.
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Ah dont forget though we were promised a "World Crass system" - and they have delivered !
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Facts like this make me wish Labour had provided a credible alternative to the country in December
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"WE are demonstrated to be f**king useless, but YOU might have been worse" doesn't make for a brilliant campaign slogan.
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The UK couple who went to New Zealand with CV-19.
Apparently the NZ TTI system tracked, traced and isolated 320 contacts in two days!
THAT is what a functioning TTI system looks like.
By contrast, in its first week, our TTI system isolated 3 contacts per infection in 7 days.
That's not what I read. Apparently the NZ authorities are 'attempting' to trace 300 contacts. Not quite the same thing.
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The UK couple who went to New Zealand with CV-19.
Apparently the NZ TTI system tracked, traced and isolated 320 contacts in two days!
THAT is what a functioning TTI system looks like.
By contrast, in its first week, our TTI system isolated 3 contacts per infection in 7 days.
That's not what I read. Apparently the NZ authorities are 'attempting' to trace 300 contacts. Not quite the same thing.
Do not question Dear Leader, dissent is unwise 🤣
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SM.
You are right. My apologies for misreading the source.
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If SM hadn’t questioned that it would have been accepted as definitive by most forum members.
You have backtracked on a few things recently BST.
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I make mistakes. I've never claimed perfection, despite what some people seem to think in here. When I find or someone points out I've made a mistake, I apologise. Isn't that how everyone operates?
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I should add by the way, that's the reason why it always makes sense to post a link to information that you are sharing. That way people can see it and check for themselves. I was rushing between meetings this morning and I didn't do that. My mistake and thanks to SM for correcting it.
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I should add by the way, that's the reason why it always makes sense to post a link to information that you are sharing. That way people can see it and check for themselves. I was rushing between meetings this morning and I didn't do that. My mistake and thanks to SM for correcting it.
I read it in one paper as they were 'attempting' to trace 320 people, but to be sure I checked other sources too just to be on the safe side!
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I should add by the way, that's the reason why it always makes sense to post a link to information that you are sharing. That way people can see it and check for themselves. I was rushing between meetings this morning and I didn't do that. My mistake and thanks to SM for correcting it.
I read it in one paper as they were 'attempting' to trace 320 people, but to be sure I checked other sources too just to be on the safe side!
Probably everyone on the aircraft they flew in on plus check in staff etc
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Right. I HAVE checked this one in 7 different sources. Because I didn't trust my eyes when I first read it.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2020/06/17/contact-tracing-app-will-not-ready-winter-admits-health-minister/amp/
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After watching the Villa v United game,it would appear that the PL have the same world beating system in place.
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Right. I HAVE checked this one in 7 different sources. Because I didn't trust my eyes when I first read it.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2020/06/17/contact-tracing-app-will-not-ready-winter-admits-health-minister/amp/
When I read that, the immediate question (that I noticed wasn't asked or answered) that sprang to mind was that if the T&T isn't his priority, what on earth is his priority?
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Glyn.
You mean given that he is the Minister responsible for the T&T app? Yeah, that did cross my mind.
Funny how so many other countries are rolling out working apps, but now it's not a priority for us. We do seem to have a bit of a theme here, of our Govt doing the opposite of what many other countries with better records of suppressing the virus have done.
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I cant believe anything I see hear or read re this Govt - so I have to speculate for myself
Maybe they think the "deadly" Virus had been finally "put the the sword" - with "the sombrero only needed in foreign climes" - and will be a distant memory soon.
So kick the can down the road and promise an "App coming by end of year" which will be "world class" because Johnny Patriot will be impressed by that but then in reality do nothing of the sort because the App wont be needed ?
Who knows - only time will tell - if only I believed a tenth of what they actually say I wouldnt be looking at why why why every time I see read or hear something
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Jimmy Wales is offering to roll out the German app free
If the NHS will to support it, I could roll out the German Corona-Warn-App (privacy respecting, official diagnosis rather than self-reporting as I understand it) in short time at zero cost to the taxpayer
https://twitter.com/jimmy_wales/status/1273540187163852801?s=20
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The UK couple who went to New Zealand with CV-19.
Apparently the NZ TTI system tracked, traced and isolated 320 contacts in two days!
THAT is what a functioning TTI system looks like.
By contrast, in its first week, our TTI system isolated 3 contacts per infection in 7 days.
Interesting though 25% of people contacted ignored the requests. Pretty poor from the general population I would say.
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BFYP
As I've been saying from the start, THE most important thing in this crisis is that we are able to respect, believe and trust the Govt.
We went into this with unprecedented amounts of support and trust in the Govt. And they have lied to us as a regular matter of policy. It's scarcely surprising that a minority of people now give them the rods when asked to do the right thing.
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Jimmy Wales is offering to roll out the German app free
If the NHS will to support it, I could roll out the German Corona-Warn-App (privacy respecting, official diagnosis rather than self-reporting as I understand it) in short time at zero cost to the taxpayer
https://twitter.com/jimmy_wales/status/1273540187163852801?s=20
Its just a bit of false posturing though as the German App has only just been released and even the Germans don't trust it. As per the German Press;
Germany has launched a new app aimed at speedily tracking down new clusters of coronavirus infection as the country's lockdown is relaxed. However, Berlin may struggle to convince many Germans to sign up for the service.
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UK ditches it’s contact tracing App for Apple / Google model:
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-uk-ditches-contact-tracing-app-to-move-to-google-apple-model-12009690
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BFYP
As I've been saying from the start, THE most important thing in this crisis is that we are able to respect, believe and trust the Govt.
We went into this with unprecedented amounts of support and trust in the Govt. And they have lied to us as a regular matter of policy. It's scarcely surprising that a minority of people now give them the rods when asked to do the right thing.
Aye socially responsible that.
If I got that call the last thing on my mind would be "nah not phoning them back i don't trust the government". If that's more important than family and those you may have come in contact with you need to have a rethink.
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'World beating track & trace system' - what a farce.
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BFYP
As I've been saying from the start, THE most important thing in this crisis is that we are able to respect, believe and trust the Govt.
We went into this with unprecedented amounts of support and trust in the Govt. And they have lied to us as a regular matter of policy. It's scarcely surprising that a minority of people now give them the rods when asked to do the right thing.
Aye socially responsible that.
If I got that call the last thing on my mind would be "nah not phoning them back i don't trust the government". If that's more important than family and those you may have come in contact with you need to have a rethink.
And that's to your credit. But we're not talking about you. We are, I suspect, generally talking about people who are not as engaged as you, or more naturally suspicious than you. They are the 25% who need convincing, and a three month record of lying and dodging is 100% not the way to go about doing that.
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UK ditches it’s contact tracing App for Apple / Google model:
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-uk-ditches-contact-tracing-app-to-move-to-google-apple-model-12009690
Christ, I'd missed that! I'm speechless.
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UK ditches it’s contact tracing App for Apple / Google model:
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-uk-ditches-contact-tracing-app-to-move-to-google-apple-model-12009690
Christ, I'd missed that! I'm speechless.
I wonder how much time and more importantly tax payer money been wasted on this
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Actually Ian, I'd say the time is hugely the bigger loss.
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Probably right to be fair. I wonder at what point we could have had an operational app in place that was fit for purpose had we not wasted so much time.
That then of course raises the question of how many lives could have been saved as a result.
Just another in a long line of big f**k ups..
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So when Dildo Talk Talk was briefing with Hancock last week, it was all complete bollox.
Is that the last we will see of her.......off to the holiday home with a nice little boost from the public coffers?
It is a U-Turn a day now, they will be running out of promises to renege on soon.
They are a joke, and its not funny!
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It also showed at today’s press briefing how bad our reporters are. The news about the app came out well before the briefing and none of them really put Hancock to the sword over it.
The questioning was poor at a time when they should have really been putting him on the spot
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So my original post with a suggestion to go with Google on the 27th May has now been accepted. I didn't realise Matt Hancock read this forum.
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Hancock would have fallen on his sword by now if he had any self respect.
Prof Costello from IndieSage reckons Dildo was due to report tomorrow;
https://twitter.com/globalhlthtwit/status/1273600612723298305
Although the Google/Apple version is decentralized, which is good, there is still a big issue of the ownership of data.
Both of these companies are about as trustworthy as a wounded rattlesnake. Their business model is all about the monetisation of information.
With perfect timing, Google soil themselves in public;
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-alphabet-google-chrome-exclusive/exclusive-massive-spying-on-users-of-googles-chrome-shows-new-security-weakness-idUKKBN23P0JM
"If the thunder don't get you, then the lightning will"
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It's interesting that at the presser Hancock said they had been running the two systems together (which is in direct conflict with what he told the Mirror & Guardian on 18th May when he said they were only working on the NHS one - but there you go).
https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1273659728292429824
So as the Google/Apple version is now up and running in countries and we have been trialing it for a month or so.....why wont it be in use here until winter?
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It's interesting that at the presser Hancock said they had been running the two systems together (which is in direct conflict with what he told the Mirror & Guardian on 18th May when he said they were only working on the NHS one - but there you go).
https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1273659728292429824
So as the Google/Apple version is now up and running in countries and we have been trialing it for a month or so.....why wont it be in use here until winter?
Erm... herd immunity.
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Response from IndieSage to the latest HanCockUp;
https://twitter.com/IndependentSage/status/1273711109384679432/photo/1
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I said a while back the best use for an app would be so you can identify a consevative voter and thank them for all this :)
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It seems to me that the development of systems to protect us from CV-19 is a classic example of where international collaboration could and should pay dividends. Instead, on PPE, on lockdown timing and now on this bloody app, we have insisted on a British Exceptionalism approach. We have proudly said "We are British and we know better than you." And we have called it wrong, every damn time.
This really ought to be a wake up call that goes beyond this crisis if we are to have a secure, safe and prosperous future. If we insist on wrapping ourselves in the flag, insisting we know best, then f**king up like this, there are more hard lessons to come this decade.
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Jimmy Wales is offering to roll out the German app free
If the NHS will to support it, I could roll out the German Corona-Warn-App (privacy respecting, official diagnosis rather than self-reporting as I understand it) in short time at zero cost to the taxpayer
https://twitter.com/jimmy_wales/status/1273540187163852801?s=20
Its just a bit of false posturing though as the German App has only just been released and even the Germans don't trust it. As per the German Press;
Germany has launched a new app aimed at speedily tracking down new clusters of coronavirus infection as the country's lockdown is relaxed. However, Berlin may struggle to convince many Germans to sign up for the service.
Doesn't mean people in the UK wouldn't trust it plenty trust johnson
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....it begs the question (though most know the answer) just HOW BAD is failing Grayling if he is not considered good enough to get a place in this Cabinet ?
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Here's a handy list Wolf some all time favourites a bit like quality street without the quality :)
Chris Grayling's failings: a catalogue of the former minister's errors
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/11/chris-graylings-failings-a-catalogue-of-the-former-ministers-errors
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Interesting that the privately developed app wouldn't work but the Google/Apple supported one does, I wonder why that is.... Are these companies really that open and transparent as they make out?
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Just another example of Johnson's off-the-cuff vanity projects, isn't it? There are quite a few open-source apps out there we could have used quite easily. But no, we had to have a world-beating app of our own (that we just didn't have the capacity to develop).
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It seems to me that the development of systems to protect us from CV-19 is a classic example of where international collaboration could and should pay dividends. Instead, on PPE, on lockdown timing and now on this bloody app, we have insisted on a British Exceptionalism approach. We have proudly said "We are British and we know better than you." And we have called it wrong, every damn time.
This really ought to be a wake up call that goes beyond this crisis if we are to have a secure, safe and prosperous future. If we insist on wrapping ourselves in the flag, insisting we know best, then f**king up like this, there are more hard lessons to come this decade.
You see what really concerns me BST, for an intellectual like yourself, you do constantly make broad-brush statements based on your political viewpoint.
As I posted here in Reply #87
Re: Track and Trace
« Reply #87 on May 29, 2020, 02:24:35 PM by silent majority »
The evidence quite clearly shows that every country has developed their own T&T app, not just us. So every country has wrapped itself in its flag. Using the we're British we know best is not the simple action and stance you make it out to be.
And for those who have introduced a working app they've all been asking for more personal data than we would be happy giving up, apart from Germany possibly, who have also found a population that is wary of the governments intentions. Their historical position is however much more understandable.
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SM. The fact is that we, pretty much alone in the world, went for the centralised data storage system. We went for a system that couldn't interface with the ones being developed in the EU. [1]
Just like we went for Herd Immunity when everyone else was locking down.
Just like we opted out of the EU co-ordinated PPE procurement and management system.
As I say, British Exceptionalism at every step. We know better don't we? Because we are British.
There's a theme here if you just join the dots.
[1] See here for example. https://techcrunch.com/2020/05/15/how-will-europes-coronavirus-contacts-tracing-apps-work-across-borders/
SM: What I do is to look at evidence and then form conclusions. You seem to think I form conclusions then go looking for evidence.
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SM. The fact is that we, pretty much alone in the world, went for the centralised data storage system. We went for a system that couldn't interface with the ones being developed in the EU. [1]
Just like we went for Herd Immunity when everyone else was locking down.
Just like we opted out of the EU co-ordinated PPE procurement and management system.
As I say, British Exceptionalism at every step. We know better don't we? Because we are British.
There's a theme here if you just join the dots.
[1] See here for example. https://techcrunch.com/2020/05/15/how-will-europes-coronavirus-contacts-tracing-apps-work-across-borders/
SM: What I do is to look at evidence and then form conclusions. You seem to think I form conclusions then go looking for evidence.
But you've just answered a question that I didn't ask.
The link I posted quite clearly showed that all countries, pretty much without exception, created their own version of a T&T app, therefore wrapping themselves up in their flag, something that you chose to highlight in a negative way about the UK.
Its disappointing, of course it is, but the UK version of an app did have some merit that was worth pursuing, maybe not at the expense of screwing up this badly, but it still had merit.
And yes, I do think you go looking for evidence to support your position, and then you use simplistic versions of whatever argument you have to do the same. You're not alone in that, quite a few posters on here wake up in the morning and go searching for evidence of something new that supports their standpoint, and then totally ignore anything that contradicts that.
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Apple now socially distancing from Hancock and his explanation yesterday;
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53105642
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SM
The EU has gone about this in a co-ordinated way which means that all their apps have a common and compatible structure. That means that they will work when people move across borders. Yes they developed them in each country, but there has been an agreed underpinning approach.
We, alone in Europe chose to go a different way.
I don't understand what you are arguing about.
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SM
The EU has gone about this in a co-ordinated way which means that all their apps have a common and compatible structure. That means that they will work when people move across borders. Yes they developed them in each country, but there has been an agreed underpinning approach.
We, alone in Europe chose to go a different way.
I don't understand what you are arguing about.
BST, we're still arguing about this because you fail to acknowledge the point other people make and then fail to read the material they link to. All you do is put up links that support your point.
However, I never realised that Europe was the rest of the world. I pointed out to you that other countries had developed their own apps, something you claimed that we 'wrapped our selves in the flag' and did something different to everybody else. That is quite clearly not true!
The article I linked to, (from MIT I hasten to add) which you haven't acknowledged, talks about the development of over 150 different apps, all with their own inbuilt idiosyncrasies, both centralised and de-centralised, Bluetooth and GPS operations. Yet you still seem to think we acted alone, we didn't. Even Germany started out using a centralised version and then did a massive u-turn. No mention of that I see. Or that Norway opted for a centralised version as well.
But I did read what you linked to, and the evidence in there is pretty damning! You've taken what that article says and used it as evidence to support your claim, which is a nonsense. That article talks about a wish list for interoperability, and then talks about the difficulty of doing so. It does not claim that the rest of the EU have a cross border system up and running. This taken from the article;
European users should be able to expect interoperability. But whether smooth cross-border working will happen in practice remains a major question mark. Getting multiple different health systems and apps that might be calculating risk exposure in slightly different ways to interface and share the relevant bits of data in a secure way is itself a major operational and technical challenge.
However, this is made even more of a headache given ongoing differences between countries over the core choice of app architecture for their national coronavirus contact tracing.
And this;
One person familiar with EU Member States’ discussions about coronavirus-tracing apps and interoperability, who briefed TechCrunch on condition of anonymity, also suggested the DESIRE proposal would not fly given its relative complexity (versus the pressing need to get apps launched soon if they are to be of any use in the current pandemic). This person also pointed to question marks over required bandwidth and impact on device battery life. For DESIRE to work they suggested it would need universal uptake by all Europe’s governments — and every EU nation agreeing to adopt a French proposal would hardly carry the torch for nation state sovereignty.
Now, I dont know what you're arguing about.
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SM.
I'm happy to accept that I went overboard in saying that we alone in the world had gone for a centralised data storage app. Retracted.
That doesn't in any way detract from the actual substantive point I've been making.
I'm saying there is a pattern to our behaviour. The three-month long refusal to use a system that could tie into an EU-wide effort to develop cross-border functionality is part of a consistent and deliberate policy of forging our own path. It is clearly ideologically driven. Given that we have a Govt whose one and only raison d'etre (sic) is to divorce us from the EU, they couldn't then be seen to be taking part in EU-wide initiatives to fight CV-19.
By the way, those problems on getting a common pan-EU app architecture that you pointed out. Here's the update.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/techcrunch.com/2020/06/16/eu-states-agree-a-tech-spec-for-national-coronavirus-apps-to-work-across-borders/amp/
That's what happens when countries work collaboratively rather than insist on their own Exceptionalism.
And by the way. Norway's courts blocked the development of their app a few days ago.
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BST,
Thank you. That was the point I've been making all along, and no more than that. I certainly wasn't arguing your alternative point about exceptionalism.
But I have read the update that you provided, and it seems this is still pretty much a wish list and doesn't automatically exclude the UK. I didn't realise by the way that France had opted for a centralised system, hardly embracing the EU approach! It appears that even with this tech spec issued they are a long way from achieving the benefits of this common approach you've promoted;
Even decentralized national apps aren’t able to exchange relevant data yet, though. The interoperability architecture’s gateway interface still needs to be deployed — and national apps launched and/or updated before all the relevant pieces can start talking. So there’s a way to go before any digital contacts tracing is working smoothly across European borders.
It seems it's still ambitious, and hardly around the corner. Suffice to say it may be too late to the party.
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Agreed SM but the point is that they are attempting it. We have just opted out of that effort. In uncertain times like this, you throw as many balls in the air as you can and hope some land in the right places.
The interesting thing will be to see whether we sign up to the EU approach now that we've finally ditched the scheme developed by Dom's mate and gone for an architecture that is compatible in principle with the EU approach.
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Back to your corners, once the bell rings!
MIT tech review has produced a more recent article;
https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/06/19/1004190/uk-covid-contact-tracing-app-fiasco/
Unfortunately, the writer has not understood the different role of the NHS and the private contractors supposedly offering a service, amongst other considerations.
Better piece in Wired, IMO;
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/nhs-tracing-app-scrapped-apple-google-uk
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Its a question of waiting I suppose, but early users of app based technology are not reporting any kind of success. I was as hopeful as everybody else that this particular technology would be the modern way of defeating an old enemy, it appears it may not be the case. Singapore, one of, if not the first, adopter of app based tracing has reported that its been a failure.
This from today's report on the BBC site seems to sum it up;
Meanwhile, there is scant proof from anywhere around the world that smartphone apps using Bluetooth are an effective method of contact tracing. Back in March, it seemed that the hugely powerful devices most of us carry with us might help us emerge from this health crisis. Now it looks as though a human being on the end of a phone is a far better option.
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Wot if everyone wore name tags and had bodycam :)
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And just to add, are we happy that 2 of the USA's technological giants have so much influence on what we can, and cannot, roll out in terms of health based solutions?
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How many more lies is this government going to perpetrate?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53105642
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And just to add, are we happy that 2 of the USA's technological giants have so much influence on what we can, and cannot, roll out in terms of health based solutions?
No....but if Apple will not allow the UK app to access the tech they own, then it is dead in the water as a tool to monitor infections using that platform.
The truth is that to get the breadth of coverage required, the power is held by the proprietors of the technology platform.
This means that any downstream re-purpose of the data, or backdoors in the operating tech, are in the gift of the US tech giants, subject to US law (such as it is).
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How many more lies is this government going to perpetrate?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53105642
Surely that's a bit of hair splitting by Apple?
Maybe not directly with the government but with the NHS provider most definitely.
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How many more lies is this government going to perpetrate?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53105642
Surely that's a bit of hair splitting by Apple?
Maybe not directly with the government but with the NHS provider most definitely.
https://postimg.cc/njtVTj6X
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Wot if everyone wore name tags and had bodycam :)
Grant Shapps did when he had denied being part of a huge get rich quick Company - because he couldnt have another job when he became an MP
He denied being Michael Green flatly denied it in fact - then someone at a seminar took his photo and have a guess what HIS badge said. Yup correct
He is of course a Cabinet Minister now (still) so no surprise there. I like the quote (someone will remember it) when challenged he said he hadnt lied but probably over firmed his denial (not right but he is not worth looking up). He had other names as well.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/mar/15/grant-shapps-admits-he-had-second-job-as-millioniare-web-marketer-while-mp
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I couldnt help it
However, in March 2015, Shapps admitted to having had a second job whilst being an MP, and practising business under a pseudonym. In his admission, he stated that he had "over-firmly denied" having a second job.
How can anybody this corrupt be in the Government - he should be nearer a Jail than a Cabinet posting
Over firmly denying Johnson sounds too cumbersone so I will stick to Liar Johnson for now
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I couldnt help it
However, in March 2015, Shapps admitted to having had a second job whilst being an MP, and practising business under a pseudonym. In his admission, he stated that he had "over-firmly denied" having a second job.
How can anybody this corrupt be in the Government - he should be nearer a Jail than a Cabinet posting
Over firmly denying Johnson sounds too cumbersone so I will stick to Liar Johnson for now
This is what we've allowed to become the norm in this country! But will Tory voters own up to it? I very much doubt it!
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One for all and all for one, we're all in thiis together ................. except when we're not
supporting this government is fraught with danger because inevitably they'll let you down.
''NHS Covid app developers 'tried to block rival symptom trackers'
Developers claim government technology unit was hostile to other groups, hampering the fight against the disease''
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/jun/20/nhs-covid-app-developers-tried-to-block-rival-symptom-trackers
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I missed this from the other week which is a splainer about the Aus Covid app.
Australia's Covidsafe coronavirus tracing app works as few as one in four times for some devices
The true state of the operation of the Covid safe contact tracing app has been revealed in documents tabled in the Senate
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jun/17/covid-safe-app-australia-covidsafe-contact-tracing-australian-government-covid19-tracking-problems-working
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And also to give you an idea how the contract tracing loads up the system very quickly there are separate contact tracing teams in each state (who knew?) In Victoria there are 1000 working around the clock so 6 hour shift 250/shift or 333 on an 8 hour shift roster, details unavailable.
This team is now at capacity.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-29/victorian-coronavirus-second-peak-melbourne-hotspots/12402126
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/more-disease-detectives-to-help-fight-coronavirus/
Added:
The Federal Health Minister has just stated that other states are now helping out with T&T.
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I've had to read this 5 times to make sure it says what I think it says.
https://mobile.twitter.com/justinmadders/status/1278257062561153024/photo/1
We have a contract with a private company to perform CV-19 tests. And nowhere in the contract does it obligate them to provide that data to PHE or local authorities?
What?
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So Leicester has had an outbreak that was clear in the Pillar 2 data from the start of June. But the local authority was only given that data last Thursday.
https://mobile.twitter.com/SteveBonham8/status/1278262779070353408
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If PHE have the information they are not disseminating it to council level?
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I've had to read this 5 times to make sure it says what I think it says.
https://mobile.twitter.com/justinmadders/status/1278257062561153024/photo/1
We have a contract with a private company to perform CV-19 tests. And nowhere in the contract does it obligate them to provide that data to PHE or local authorities?
What?
Yet one more government blunder in this sorry chapter of events, but made worse as their incompetence is playing with peoples lives and livelihoods!
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PMQs
Starmer says he supports the Leicester lockdown. But the 4,000 businesses in the city won’t accept the govdernment acted quickly enough.
He asks why Leicester did not get the pillar 2 testing information. (See 11.37am.) There was a lost week. Will the PM ensure that other cities are not put in the same position?
Johnson says Starmer is mistaken. Pillar 2 information was shared, he says.
He says there were particular problems in Leicester.
Johnson give an answer but hints at problems, I don't understand why johnson doesn't say what the problem was?
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There are rumours Bradford could be next. That will really annoy me if it happens after 12 weeks of being careful and having our shopping done for us.
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PMQs
Starmer says he supports the Leicester lockdown. But the 4,000 businesses in the city won’t accept the govdernment acted quickly enough.
He asks why Leicester did not get the pillar 2 testing information. (See 11.37am.) There was a lost week. Will the PM ensure that other cities are not put in the same position?
Johnson says Starmer is mistaken. Pillar 2 information was shared, he says.
He says there were particular problems in Leicester.
Johnson give an answer but hints at problems, I don't understand why johnson doesn't say what the problem was?
R4's More or Less programme which looks into use of data and statistics this morning basically said that Johnson lied (or at best, was highly and deliberately deceptive) at last week's PMQs on the issue of how many and when patients were moved from NHS beds to care homes.
If I were a snowflake, I'd now be demanding apologies from the people who were saying I was wrong on that topic last week, but it's water off a duck's back.
This entire episode is well worth listening to, but the bit I refer to above starts from about 12:40.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000kfpy
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FT has a free article on the data sharing (or not) in Leicester;
https://www.ft.com/content/301c847c-a317-4950-a75b-8e66933d423a
Why the UK did not use existing networks to full capability, rather than re-inventing the wheel, is a crucial question.
Is it about creating a parallel structure alongside NHS systems to enable a transfer over time to private providers, I wonder?
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FT has a free article on the data sharing (or not) in Leicester;
https://www.ft.com/content/301c847c-a317-4950-a75b-8e66933d423a
Why the UK did not use existing networks to full capability, rather than re-inventing the wheel, is a crucial question.
Is it about creating a parallel structure alongside NHS systems to enable a transfer over time to private providers, I wonder?
Fits Cummings's MO. Break the existing systems and replace them with ones that do what he wants.
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There are rumours Bradford could be next. That will really annoy me if it happens after 12 weeks of being careful and having our shopping done for us.
Seeing that reported, idler. Look after yourself over there. Same to Tyke if he reads this, as apparently Barnsley is another hotspot I'm seeing reported.
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Here is the “league table” being published by Sky News
Interesting how far down Doncaster is given the panic earlier this week about us being next on the local lockdown list
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Here is the “league table” being published by Sky News
Interesting how far down Doncaster is given the panic earlier this week about us being next on the local lockdown list
It'll be some t**t in London who confused us with Barnsley cos we're all "oop north".
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There are clearly issues with these statistics.
1. Don't publish them if they can't be used for correct analysis and interpretation. Why PHE do this is beyond me, raw data unchecked can be dangerous.
2. The media should be more responsible than drawing completely incorrect conclusions, including so called experts like Ferguson creating incorrect headlines.
Overall it's very dangerous.
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Here is the “league table” being published by Sky News
Interesting how far down Doncaster is given the panic earlier this week about us being next on the local lockdown list
It'll be some t**t in London who confused us with Barnsley cos we're all "oop north".
Ha! I hadn't seen this when I posted earlier.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-53235015
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I thought johnson had said T&T was going well in PMQs earlier this week in reply to KS question?
Test and trace fails to reach quarter of contacts
Worrying report about the failure of the NHS test and trace system: new figures have revealed that it has failed to reach a quarter of contacts.
A total of 27,125 people who tested positive for Covid-19 in England had their case transferred to the NHS test and trace contact tracing system during the first four weeks of its operation, according to figures from the Department of Health & Social Care.
However, only 20,039 people (74%) were reached and asked to provide details of recent contacts, while 6,245 people (23%) were not reached. A further 841 people (3%) could not be reached because their communication details had not been provided.
Despite this, a total of 132,525 people who had been identified as recent close contacts of people who had tested positive for Covid-19 were reached through the tracing system and asked to self-isolate. This was 86% out of a total of 153,442 identified contacts.
The figures cover the period May 28 to June 24.
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HanCockUp to face legal challenge over T+T data;
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/nhs-test-and-trace-data-protection
Fiasco inside a shambles!
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FT has a free article on the data sharing (or not) in Leicester;
https://www.ft.com/content/301c847c-a317-4950-a75b-8e66933d423a
Why the UK did not use existing networks to full capability, rather than re-inventing the wheel, is a crucial question.
Is it about creating a parallel structure alongside NHS systems to enable a transfer over time to private providers, I wonder?
Fits Cummings's MO. Break the existing systems and replace them with ones that do what he wants.
Right on cue, the plan unfolds;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/02/uk-set-to-award-covid-19-testing-contracts-worth-5bn-to-private-bidders
Using the Covid crisis as a cover to shift the centre of gravity within the NHS to a proprietary model.
Anyone who still thinks that President Cummings intends to preserve and improve the NHS is living in cloud cuckoo land.
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Here is the “league table” being published by Sky News
Interesting how far down Doncaster is given the panic earlier this week about us being next on the local lockdown list
It'll be some t**t in London who confused us with Barnsley cos we're all "oop north".
Ha! I hadn't seen this when I posted earlier.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-53235015
And another one.
https://www.thestar.co.uk/health/coronavirus/boris-johnson-mocked-he-appears-confuse-sheffield-leicester-briefing-local-lockdowns-2903890?amp
And to think. Some poor lambs who voted for them genuinely believe they are interested in the North. Bless!
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Some of you genuinely believe Doncaster is in the North bless, love Newcastle
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Depends whose version of North you are referring to
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It's no wonder track & trace isn't working then the ministry struggle with Google Earth, it also explains why there is little money spent north of Watford Gap :)
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Some of you genuinely believe Doncaster is in the North bless, love Newcastle
Yes it is really "in the Midlands" but could scrape into the north by this definition
Very loosely I chose the places Coldstream where England become Scotland and Brighton where England becomes the sea because they were as far South and as far North as I could go in England (in a roughly straight line)
The distance between them is 406 Miles so half that 203 and that will be somewhere between Newark and Tuxford (Tuxford is 210). So geographically we are half way up England but if you draw the North South divide line at Tuxford we are above the line in the Northern half
Have I nothing better do do - honestly let me go make another tea
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I haven't checked this all out myself yet Wolf
''New centre of England marked in Fenny Drayton. For more than 500 years Meriden, near Coventry has marked the traditional centre of England. However, the Ordnance Survey has calculated the exact geographical centre to be in a field at Lindley Hall Farm, in Fenny Drayton, Leicestershire''
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-leicestershire-22901222/new-centre-of-england-marked-in-fenny-drayton#:~:text=Exit%20player-,New%20centre%20of%20England%20marked%20in%20Fenny%20Drayton,%2C%20in%20Fenny%20Drayton%2C%20Leicestershire.
Centre points of the United Kingdom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_points_of_the_United_Kingdom
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Yes that checks out and we are comfotably northerners then
I was only "aiming" for a North South divide and another way of doing it ?
Coldstream sits at 55.65 North
Brighton sits at 50.50 North
So the mid point between the two would be 53.08 North and Donny sits at 53.51 North comfortably above the North South divide
Collingham (good fishing spot on River Trent) sits at 53.08 so I will draw the line there - and indeed draw the line on my inputs lol
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I like this decription from the wiki link
''Put simply, the centroid is the point at which a cardboard cut-out of the area could be perfectly balanced on the tip of a pencil.[4] Islands are assumed fixed to the mainland in their precise position by invisible rigid weightless wires. A mathematical method is used to do the balancing to a much greater accuracy than the practical method could achieve''
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Hmmm.
Someone here is telling porkies on illegal use of track and trace patient data.
Either Matt Hancock's Dept of Health.
https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1285148041117405184
Or The Times.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdXLVkJWoAAkBJ7?format=png&name=900x900
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coronavirus-contact-tracers-sharing-patients-data-on-whatsapp-and-facebook-rg3zqn5l6
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Hancockup has always been keen to monetise the data, and the Cummings project rewards backers with lucrative contracts under the cover of a Covid response;
https://bylinetimes.com/2020/07/15/will-the-coronavirus-pandemic-obliterate-the-last-frontier-in-privacy-our-biological-selves/
https://www.monbiot.com/2020/07/19/contract-killers/
Ireland have taken a different approach;
https://www.siliconrepublic.com/enterprise/covid-tracker-ireland-app-source-code-glinux-project
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Someone's telling porkies again, can you guess who it is?
''Test and trace failing to contact thousands in England's worst-hit areas
The government’s flagship test-and-trace system is failing to contact thousands of people in areas with the highest infection rates in England, raising further questions about the £10bn programme described by Boris Johnson as “world-beating”
In Luton, which has the sixth highest infection rate in England, only 47% of at-risk people were contacted by test and trace. In Leicester, which remains under a partial lockdown, the rate was 65%, meaning more than 3,300 people were not reached by the programme.
More than 5,500 people in four areas with the highest infection rates in England were not contacted when they should have been told to self-isolate, the Guardian has learned. These included 3,340 people in Leicester, 984 in Kirklees, 759 in Rochdale and 448 in Blackburn with Darwen.
The government’s Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) has said that 80% of an infected person’s close contacts must be contacted and told to self-isolate within 48 to 72 hours for the national programme to be effective.
In Blackburn with Darwen the figure was 54%; in Leicester 65%, in Rochdale 66% and in Kirklees 77%.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/22/test-and-trace-system-in-england-failing-to-contact-thousands
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The question is why....
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Why does johnson lie? that is the question, because he can't deal with the truth, he's a narcissist and likes his ego fluffed? he's never had to deal with the truth so it's foreign to him, he struggles to understand what the difference is between truth and lies, he's just a lying f**k. I think the latter.
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World beating T+T, is it not?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/05/englands-contact-tracers-making-handful-of-calls-a-month
Job creation scheme rather than an effective strategy.
Hopeless!
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According to an official in Darwin/ Blackburn this afternoon on Talkradio, one of the biggest problems they have is the lack of speaking and understanding English in the local community most at risk.
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Snouts in the trough again for Serco;
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/serco-lands-another-45m-for-failing-covid-test-and-trace-scheme/
Good to know public money is being so well spent.
New health Czar Dido Harding is not elected, being a member of the House of Lords after being favoured by Cameron, who apparently "knew her" at University.
Lady Dido has a great CV for the role she currently holds;
https://www.private-eye.co.uk/issue-1529/news
If Tracy Tracker is there to transfer funds to favoured companies, she is doing a great job with your money.
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OMG;
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-nhs-testing-hospitals-shortage-b485589.html
Getting surreal now!
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Maybe Rishi should start a scheme where every family gets a tenner off delivered takeaway and stays at home? it would make more sense than the previous brain explosion.
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According to an official in Darwin/ Blackburn this afternoon on Talkradio, one of the biggest problems they have is the lack of speaking and understanding English in the local community most at risk.
Wow. So the 2nd wave is because of those bloody foreigners eh Selby?
That statement, sir, is nodding towards racism.
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I’m not sure I agree with you there BJW, Selby is relating what he heard, nothing says he agrees with it.
We live in a multicultural society and there will be some people who struggle with English. The authorities need to recognise where that is an issue and provide multilingual guidance.
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Selby, I've lived in Bradford for over forty years and it's amazing how many people that you meet with little or no English. Some of the older ones have lived here many years and don't speak English.
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Aye, imagine that, a community of people who move to another country then live in their own little bubble and never bother to learn the language.
I'm glad Brits don't do that.
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Janso, I was just explaining the situation here. I also have no time for ex-pats in Spain etc. that are arrogant enough to think that they don't need to speak the language of their adopted country.
I also do try to speak a bit of Urdu to my neighbours. My accent isn't great though.🙂
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According to an official in Darwin/ Blackburn this afternoon on Talkradio, one of the biggest problems they have is the lack of speaking and understanding English in the local community most at risk.
Wow. So the 2nd wave is because of those bloody foreigners eh Selby?
That statement, sir, is nodding towards racism.
how is it racism in the slightest? Is it wrong what he has said? Surley if someone can’t understand the language of the country it would be harder to follow the rules? You sir owe selby a apology!
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When I went to France last I always tried and order food and taxis etc in French. I think the locals appreciate the effort even if I was a bit slow.
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When I went to France last I always tried and order food and taxis etc in French. I think the locals appreciate the effort even if I was a bit slow.
They couldn’t possibly understand French with a Peckham/Bermondsey accent.
Now a proper Donny one that’s a different kettle of fish ( or snails )
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bobjimwilly, I am not in the slightest bit interested in what you are nodding towards.
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The problem of people who don't have English as a first language not being able to keep up with changing coronavirus guidelines has been known about for months. So it's not suprising someone should be saying it on the radio - the suprise is they are still saying it as late as last Friday.
https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/national/18611065.fears-access-coronavirus-guidance-non-english-speakers/
But that doesn't seem to be the main problem in Blackburn. That is the failure of the government test & trace system who were not able to trace over half the contacts. Which is why Andy Burnham and other north-west politicians have said they should be running the system - so they could go round to people's houses and tell them what to do.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53463068
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WTF why is that remotely racist, if you don’t understand or can’t read English how can you be expected to comply with rules
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When I went to France last I always tried and order food and taxis etc in French. I think the locals appreciate the effort even if I was a bit slow.
I bet you sounded just like that bloke in "Allo allo".
I wush to erder a tixi.
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....And when he went through customs I bet he said: "do you want to see my pisspot?"
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When I went to France last I always tried and order food and taxis etc in French. I think the locals appreciate the effort even if I was a bit slow.
I bet you sounded just like that bloke in "Allo allo".
I wush to erder a tixi.
I probably sounded an even bigger tit in French than English! Ha ha.
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We are a funny lot when it comes to speaking other languages. I speak Italian passably well but I'm hopeless at other languages. Every time I'm somewhere where no-one speaks English and they start talking to me in their language, I panic and start talking Italian. Cos it's foreign innit?
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Had a proper comedy example a few years back. I was going to a meeting in Innsbruck. Flew to Munich and got a late night train from there. One of those classic old ones with the six seat compartments.
Just before it set off, I thought I had the compartment to myself, but a great fat German guy with the Bavarian moustache gets in.
Couple of minutes later he gets out a packet of fags and said something to me in German. I later realised he was saying "Do you mind if I smoke?" but I didn't get it immediately. So I tried to tell him I didn't understand in the tiny bit of German that I know. But I got confused with Italian.
Thing is, in Italian, they don't put I or He or You or They before verbs. You just know who the verb is referring to by the ending. So for example, to say, "I go" you say "vado" and "you go" is "vai".
So I gets into Italian mode and dropped the pronouns as I replied. Meant to say, "I'm sorry, I'm English, I don't speak German". And I got the verb ending for "speak" wrong. Actually said, "Ich bin Englander. Nicht sprechen Deutsch!"
Which I realised later, very badly translates as "I'm English. Don't you speak German!"
He sort of shook his head looking shocked and muttered something under his breath that included "Englander" and "scheisse" but I couldn't make the rest out.
Bit of a frosty atmos for the rest of the trip.
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A bit like JFK saying “ich bin ein Berliner”, when in that city all those years ago.
In many parts of Germany a “Berliner” is a type of donut.!
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Had a proper comedy example a few years back. I was going to a meeting in Innsbruck. Flew to Munich and got a late night train from there. One of those classic old ones with the six seat compartments.
Just before it set off, I thought I had the compartment to myself, but a great fat German guy with the Bavarian moustache gets in.
Couple of minutes later he gets out a packet of fags and said something to me in German. I later realised he was saying "Do you mind if I smoke?" but I didn't get it immediately. So I tried to tell him I didn't understand in the tiny bit of German that I know. But I got confused with Italian.
Thing is, in Italian, they don't put I or He or You or They before verbs. You just know who the verb is referring to by the ending. So for example, to say, "I go" you say "vado" and "you go" is "vai".
So I gets into Italian mode and dropped the pronouns as I replied. Meant to say, "I'm sorry, I'm English, I don't speak German". And I got the verb ending for "speak" wrong. Actually said, "Ich bin Englander. Nicht sprechen Deutsch!"
Which I realised later, very badly translates as "I'm English. Don't you speak German!"
He sort of shook his head looking shocked and muttered something under his breath that included "Englander" and "scheisse" but I couldn't make the rest out.
Bit of a frosty atmos for the rest of the trip.
That scenario sounds a bit like something from an Agatha Christie story.
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Got a second Munich train compartment story.
A few years before I'd been to a conference in Munich. First time I'd ever presented anything in front of a big audience. Couldn't afford to fly so I'd got the ferry and train which was miles cheaper.
Made a few friends at the conference and on the last night we went out and got hammered. 2am, I suddenly remembered I had to get the train at 4am to be sure of making my ferry.
Rushed back to the hotel, threw up, packed, left and got to the station absolutely shit faced.
Gets in the compartment with no-one else in the whole carriage. Then just as we were about to leave, THE most beautiful woman I've ever seen walks down the corridor. Then 30 seconds later, she comes back, opens my compartment door and says in perfect English with an East European accent, "Do you mind if I join you in here? It's a bit scary to be in a compartment on my own late at night."
So she sits down and we talk, and she is absolutely fascinating as well as beautiful. 23 year old Croatian PhD student, studying in Munich. And she's flirting with me outrageously, saying how much she prefers English men to any others, and I'm thinking...thinking...thinking...
Next thing I know it's two hours later and the sun's coming up. I'd fallen asleep. No sign of her but she's left me a note. "Lovely to meet you. You looked really funny asleep. Sorry I had to get off, my stop was Augsburg."
No name. No contact details.
Chuffing German ale.
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Got a second Munich train compartment story.
A few years before I'd been to a conference in Munich. First time I'd ever presented anything in front of a big audience. Couldn't afford to fly so I'd got the ferry and train which was miles cheaper.
Made a few friends at the conference and on the last night we went out and got hammered. 2am, I suddenly remembered I had to get the train at 4am to be sure of making my ferry.
Rushed back to the hotel, threw up, packed, left and got to the station absolutely shit faced.
Gets in the compartment with no-one else in the whole carriage. Then just as we were about to leave, THE most beautiful woman I've ever seen walks down the corridor. Then 30 seconds later, she comes back, opens my compartment door and says in perfect English with an East European accent, "Do you mind if I join you in here? It's a bit scary to be in a compartment on my own late at night."
So she sits down and we talk, and she is absolutely fascinating as well as beautiful. 23 year old Croatian PhD student, studying in Munich. And she's flirting with me outrageously, saying how much she prefers English men to any others, and I'm thinking...thinking...thinking...
Next thing I know it's two hours later and the sun's coming up. I'd fallen asleep. No sign of her but she's left me a note. "Lovely to meet you. You looked really funny asleep. Sorry I had to get off, my stop was Augsburg."
No name. No contact details.
Chuffing German ale.
I wonder how many pints of it she'd had?
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Got a second Munich train compartment story.
A few years before I'd been to a conference in Munich. First time I'd ever presented anything in front of a big audience. Couldn't afford to fly so I'd got the ferry and train which was miles cheaper.
Made a few friends at the conference and on the last night we went out and got hammered. 2am, I suddenly remembered I had to get the train at 4am to be sure of making my ferry.
Rushed back to the hotel, threw up, packed, left and got to the station absolutely shit faced.
Gets in the compartment with no-one else in the whole carriage. Then just as we were about to leave, THE most beautiful woman I've ever seen walks down the corridor. Then 30 seconds later, she comes back, opens my compartment door and says in perfect English with an East European accent, "Do you mind if I join you in here? It's a bit scary to be in a compartment on my own late at night."
So she sits down and we talk, and she is absolutely fascinating as well as beautiful. 23 year old Croatian PhD student, studying in Munich. And she's flirting with me outrageously, saying how much she prefers English men to any others, and I'm thinking...thinking...thinking...
Next thing I know it's two hours later and the sun's coming up. I'd fallen asleep. No sign of her but she's left me a note. "Lovely to meet you. You looked really funny asleep. Sorry I had to get off, my stop was Augsburg."
No name. No contact details.
Chuffing German ale.
I had a similar experience BST. Only this was on a train to Cleethorpes, and the woman who got on was from Denaby. She was THE most ugly woman I'd ever seen. She farted all the way there.
I too fell asleep, and when I woke up, she'd left me a note saying she'd got off at Grimsby.
Thank f*ck for that.
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Looks like T+T is not making first base if it cannot persuade people to isolate as a result;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/16/contact-tracing-alone-has-little-impact-on-curbing-covid-spread-report-finds
Now I would have thought giving financial support to those needing to isolate would be the best way to spend money on making the system effective.
To date Sunak has not given priority to this...anyone know why not?
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Looks like T+T is not making first base if it cannot persuade people to isolate as a result;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/16/contact-tracing-alone-has-little-impact-on-curbing-covid-spread-report-finds
Now I would have thought giving financial support to those needing to isolate would be the best way to spend money on making the system effective.
To date Sunak has not given priority to this...anyone know why not?
I’m sure some of the Tory fan boys on here can enlighten us
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Especially as it was a known problem flagged in Australia and therefore a similar risk factor elsewhere, not hard to predict aye?
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Thin end of the wedge for the poorest as well;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/17/englands-poorest-areas-hit-by-covid-perfect-storm-leaked-report
Still, levelling up will sort that out, won't it?
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Looks like T+T is not making first base if it cannot persuade people to isolate as a result;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/16/contact-tracing-alone-has-little-impact-on-curbing-covid-spread-report-finds
Now I would have thought giving financial support to those needing to isolate would be the best way to spend money on making the system effective.
To date Sunak has not given priority to this...anyone know why not?
It's very difficult to do how would you make it effective?
1. It assumes People don't isolate for financial reasons.
2. How do you set the financial figure that stops point 1 if finances are an issue?
3. How do you prevent abuse or prevent "oh I've got symptoms I'm isolating and paid for it" ie liars.
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Pref**kingcisely
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Looks like T+T is not making first base if it cannot persuade people to isolate as a result;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/16/contact-tracing-alone-has-little-impact-on-curbing-covid-spread-report-finds
Now I would have thought giving financial support to those needing to isolate would be the best way to spend money on making the system effective.
To date Sunak has not given priority to this...anyone know why not?
It's very difficult to do how would you make it effective?
1. It assumes People don't isolate for financial reasons.
2. How do you set the financial figure that stops point 1 if finances are an issue?
3. How do you prevent abuse or prevent "oh I've got symptoms I'm isolating and paid for it" ie liars.
How do they do it elsewhere? It doesn't seem a problem in a lot of other countries.
We have one of the lowest, by a long way, sickness benefits rates in Europe. Is it then a coincidence we have one of the highest covid mortality rates?
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BFYP,
Your point 1 is not an assumption. We know from the data that many cannot afford to isolate, if they are in low wage or precarious employment.
Point 2...you pay them an equivalent amount to the earnings lost during isolation, up to the date they can resume work.
Point 3... they are isolating because the T+T system has required them to do so.
It it not an abuse to follow guidance to reduce infection to others.
Behind all this is the key pointy of reducing transmission. We do not know how effective the vaccines are at reducing transmission of the Kent variant, or emerging variants like the SA strain.
Preventing transmission by reducing contacts is the only way to clamp down on that until data is available.
Paying people to self isolate is the best buy that government can make at this point.
All this is covered in the article.;
"Dr Kit Yates, a senior lecturer in the department of mathematical sciences at the University of Bath, indicated the considerable resources set aside for NHS Test and Trace could be put to better use by focusing on isolation.
“One can’t help thinking that some of the £22bn – the figure widely quoted as having been earmarked for the operation thus far – might be better spent on providing support for isolation, which is likely to have a significant impact reducing transmission,” said Yates".
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Looks like T+T is not making first base if it cannot persuade people to isolate as a result;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/16/contact-tracing-alone-has-little-impact-on-curbing-covid-spread-report-finds
Now I would have thought giving financial support to those needing to isolate would be the best way to spend money on making the system effective.
To date Sunak has not given priority to this...anyone know why not?
It's very difficult to do how would you make it effective?
1. It assumes People don't isolate for financial reasons.
2. How do you set the financial figure that stops point 1 if finances are an issue?
3. How do you prevent abuse or prevent "oh I've got symptoms I'm isolating and paid for it" ie liars.
How do they do it elsewhere? It doesn't seem a problem in a lot of other countries.
We have one of the lowest, by a long way, sickness benefits rates in Europe. Is it then a coincidence we have one of the highest covid mortality rates?
I don't know how it's done elsewhere it would be interesting to know ( and also how do they find that?)
I also agree on point two we should have better sickness policies though balanced to ensure its not employers that bear the brunt.
Albie, the problem I see with your points is how do you stop that being abused? Do we then means test it and cause further resentment in society?
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I don't know what the cost of us doing it BFYP is.
But I can tell you what the cost of us not doing it is - because you are living in it. And I reckon getting a few people to isolate for two weeks by mistake will be a heck of a lot chaeper than making several million people loose their lives, businesses or jobs and pay benefits to them whilst loosing out on that tax revenue - certainly for months but possibly for years to come.
The more covid there is in society - the longer there will be restrictions.
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Pudding,
Not sure who you think will abuse the system.....after all, the only people eligible would be those who have a positive test first!
Anyway, the best summary is the 4 tweets from Prof Reicher here;
https://twitter.com/ReicherStephen/status/1362068812464590850
Spending £22bn on testing then not doing the support work is missing the point.
There is no evidence that Dido has actually understood WHY T+T was set up in the first place!
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Pudding,
Not sure who you think will abuse the system.....after all, the only people eligible would be those who have a positive test first!
Anyway, the best summary is the 4 tweets from Prof Reicher here;
https://twitter.com/ReicherStephen/status/1362068812464590850
Spending £22bn on testing then not doing the support work is missing the point.
There is no evidence that Dido has actually understood WHY T+T was set up in the first place!
Again another flaw. The problem is not with those who test positive, in most cases it's those who've encountered a positive case but have to isolate. To be fair you have to pay them all or it just has the same issue.
Wilts, I full agree with you it is a harsh cost this virus. But again, do we means test it or apply it to all? Do we set a level it applies to or give it to everyone? It is full of problems isn't it?
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Everyone has seen the cost of not doing it, billions and thousnds of lives and illness and it should have been done from the get go, it's a shame the pm is a narcissistic liar. Look back at the beginnings where the options were to go hard or go to water. One can see as bst points out a hard lockdown is producing a halving approx ea 14 days and a fully functioning T&T + provision to enable all those with covid and close contacts to isolate would have had this beat and maybe even not allowed it the chance to evolve. I think medical staff would have much preferred the sensible option than a weekly round of applause.
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BFYP,
I might have misunderstood, but I thought Bozo was hoping to mop up with mass testing using Lateral Flow tests.
So the need to isolate would be those showing positive alone on the Gov T+T, rather than all contacts, providing those other contacts then gave a negative LFT.
This is the big idea for opening schools up in March.
How it will be used in practice is open to debate!
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Everyone has seen the cost of not doing it, billions and thousnds of lives and illness and it should have been done from the get go, it's a shame the pm is a narcissistic liar. Look back at the beginnings where the options were to go hard or go to water. One can see as bst points out a hard lockdown is producing a halving approx ea 14 days and a fully functioning T&T + provision to enable all those with covid and close contacts to isolate would have had this beat and maybe even not allowed it the chance to evolve. I think medical staff would have much preferred the sensible option than a weekly round of applause.
The halving issue brings into sharp focus just how bad a decision it was to delay the first lockdown by 10 days, when the virus cases were doubling every 3 days or so. It was estimated that by the time we finally did lock down in late March, we had probably 100,000 new infections per day. In lockdown, cases did halve pretty much once a fortnight. And as we kept the lockdown on until the end of June, that's about 7 fortnights, so by the end of June we were down to a few hundred cases per day (7 halvings means a fall to 1/128th of the peak.) That was hard going. And it cost us eyewatering amounts of economic damage.
If we'd have locked down immediately when Ferguson briefed the Govt about just how bad things were, 10 days or so before we did lock down, there were "only" 10,000 or so new cases a day. So we would have needed less than 4 halvings to get down to a few hundred cases per day. In other words, if we had acted promptly, the first lockdown could have ended in early May, not the end of June. 7 weeks extra lockdown required for 10 days delay.
Or, even more salient, if we had imposed the first lockdown promptly and THEN kept it on till late June, there would have been only a few tens of new cases per day. And then we really could have used test and trace to control it.
It all comes back to those lost 10 days last March. That is why we have just about the worst death rate and the worst economic hit in Europe.
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I’m sure I have read that somewhere before.
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Better read than dead.
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Looks like Dido and friends have been even less competent than anyone could imagine;
https://news.sky.com/story/test-and-trace-barely-used-check-in-data-from-pubs-and-restaurants-with-thousands-not-warned-of-infection-risk-12235392
Blimey!
So will the companies involved in this disaster be paying back the fees they charged, or will they need to be prosecuted?
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Can't get much clearer than that aye? .............. ''Pref**kingcisely'' said Simon
''Covid-19: NHS Test and Trace 'no clear impact' despite £37bn budget''
But the MPs' report questioned:
An over-reliance on consultants with some paid more than £6,600 a day
A failure to be ready for the surge in demand for tests seen last September
Never meeting its target to turn around tests done face-to-face within 24 hours
Contact tracers only having enough work to fill half their time even when cases were rising
A splurge on rapid tests with no clear evidence they will help
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56340831
''Committee chairwoman Meg Hillier said it was hard to point to a "measurable difference" the test-and-trace system had made''
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TTTI has failed primarily because there was a political decision right at the start to develop an entirely new, centralised tracing system, and by-pass the well-established and successful tracing systems that local authorities have run for years. And that centralised system has never worked anything like it needed to do to make any difference.
So, as I posted the other day, of the 100,000,000 times the Serco App has been used to check in to shops, cafes, hotels etc, only 285 warnings of close encounter with an infection have been followed up. Because they don't have the staffed organisation to follow them up.
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The politicisation of the health system is verging on criminal when lives lost and damage is taken into consideration.
A comparison between a good T&T and not good system played out here with NSW having a well funded health system (still partially privatised) enabling it to quickly build a solid T&T system and Victoria which had run down the health system over 20 years or so and couldn't fund it's T&T with all the associated problems. Vic is labor and NSW is Liberal.
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Add to the fact the government never enforced Track and Trace, and still don't!
Most other countries with similar systems e.g. scanning a QR code before you enter, enforce using it to enter a premises by law. We don't.
During the "fantastic" idea that was Eat out to help out, I could have gone to 2 different restaurants, nipped to a garage for petrol, then gone for a big shop and ALDI and Asda, before nipping out to collect a takeaway, all without scanning my app at a single stop! TTTI would have thought I was at home all day, yet I could have infected many, many people. Brilliant.
The LEAST they should do is make people scan their app when they enter a supermarket, or take details of those who don't have the app. This is done in China, Thailand, UAE, Germany - everywhere!
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Only just realised that the hopeless Sunak has given a further £15 billion to this failing system in the budget last week;
https://www.theregister.com/2021/03/10/pac_test_and_trace/
Oh my days!
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Albie.
In fairness, I'd be interested to see how much of that £37bn is for the TEST part of TTTI. That part seems to be working well, although of course it's not much help if you don't effectively TTI the people who you have T'd.
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BST,
Nothing of significance in the budget to support isolation, so adding to the front end is just more money pissed away after bad.
As I said in post 270, if you can't afford to isolate, there is no incentive to act on the findings of T+T even if it does identify you. It perversely becomes a reason for some to sidestep testing altogether.
The Lateral Flow tests they are using in schools stumble at the same hurdle.
How many will do the home follow up correctly if it means a potential loss of earnings in the house?
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Only just realised that the hopeless Sunak has given a further £15 billion to this failing system in the budget last week;
https://www.theregister.com/2021/03/10/pac_test_and_trace/ (https://www.theregister.com/2021/03/10/pac_test_and_trace/)
Oh my days!
Incidentally - what does 37 billion equate to per man woman and child in the population it serves
HELL it must be a huge amount
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£550 Hound. It's almost equivalent to the entire Defence budget.
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£550 Hound. It's almost equivalent to the entire Defence budget.
Is a wolf a hound BST.
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Easy mistake to make. My apologies. Been a busy few days.
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Easy mistake to make. My apologies. Been a busy few days.
Not too busy to make 15 posts so far today and 18 the day before.
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No. Not too busy to land a £180k contract this week either. You want to be my diary manager?
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Any jobs going at your place?
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We are a funny lot when it comes to speaking other languages. I speak Italian passably well but I'm hopeless at other languages. Every time I'm somewhere where no-one speaks English and they start talking to me in their language, I panic and start talking Italian. Cos it's foreign innit?
We're in an awkward position. Every other nation in Europe teaches English as a second language, if they can't converse in their own language chances are they can get by with English.
Where as us English speakers can usually manage because so many speak English but we don't have much to fall back on, a bit of O level French perhaps. And of course we get it in the neck for not learning other languages but it isn't like there is an obvious choice, that so much media and business use.
Personally I think they should be teaching Spanish rather than French as a second language in schools. There would likely be more chance of using it on holidays and Spanish is widely used across the Americas.
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The issue I see is why the scanning didn't work? It should be easy to do that. Everything else seamt good to me. Need a test? Get one fairly easily. Test positive? Asked within 48 hrs for all I'd been in contact with, where I'd been etc. Same for the kids. Also notified not to go out as a contact of kids, so it all worked well to me.
But I still find the bit about the premises scanning not working odd. Though I believe the app alerts did so if you had your app on, no problem?
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Everybody should speak English. Failure to do so is just laziness.
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No. Not too busy to land a £180k contract this week either. You want to be my diary manager?
No thanks, I don’t you could afford me.
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Any jobs going at your place?
Diary manager, apparently.
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Is it just a twelve-month contract?
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It's like reading the script of Nic and Arthur
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0fbuarni24 ;)
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It's like reading the script of Nic and Arthur
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0fbuarni24 ;)
More like these two:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyZNQumtPEw
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For those who like an official source;
https://committees.parliament.uk/work/906/covid19-test-track-and-trace-part-1/news/150988/unimaginable-cost-of-test-trace-failed-to-deliver-central-promise-of-averting-another-lockdown/
Dick Turpin went to the gallows....just saying!
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£550 Hound. It's almost equivalent to the entire Defence budget.
Is a wolf a hound BST.
Off topic
I spotted the real drfchound hound yesterday. Magnificent specimen
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For those who like an official source;
https://committees.parliament.uk/work/906/covid19-test-track-and-trace-part-1/news/150988/unimaginable-cost-of-test-trace-failed-to-deliver-central-promise-of-averting-another-lockdown/
Dick Turpin went to the gallows....just saying!
Shame we can't use track and trace to follow the money.
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Well, who would have thought it;
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nhs-test-and-trace-lost-covid-tests_uk_60d48f44e4b0c101fc857eeb
That Dildo seems such a competent woman as well, next in line for promotion to oversee the NHS.
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To be fair they cant force you to register the results. We have them and honestly don't register the results, I doubt anyone does but doesn't mean they aren't used.
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To be fair they cant force you to register the results. We have them and honestly don't register the results, I doubt anyone does but doesn't mean they aren't used.
Do you think that perhaps some people might use them and not register the results so that it added to their agenda?
Just saying like.
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You need an office at the Keepmoat Billy, Brexit not affected you then?
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Dick Turpin went to the gallows....just saying!
Why, did he refuse to wear a mask?
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To be fair they cant force you to register the results. We have them and honestly don't register the results, I doubt anyone does but doesn't mean they aren't used.
this one 'Comment of the Week'
Do you think that perhaps some people might use them and not register the results so that it added to their agenda?
Just saying like.
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Hound, do you mean there are lefties in this country who won't comply to the rules for political reasons?
Wash your mouth out!
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599,999,987 of them at the latest count Ldr has 3 and bp has 10 ................
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Hound, do you mean there are lefties in this country who won't comply to the rules for political reasons?
Wash your mouth out!
It wouldn’t be unexpected BB would it.
As for who would have done it, well some people might think that there isn’t life beyond the vsc forum.
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Dick Turpin went to the gallows....just saying!
Why, did he refuse to wear a mask?
At least Turpin jumped rather than waiting to be pushed from the 3 legged mare unlike Hancockup
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599,999,987 of them at the latest count Ldr has 3 and bp has 10 ................
10? I've way more than that which have been largely used aswell.
We're all encouraged to do various tests etc dependent on symptoms. For me and my kids that's a test every other day....
A serious point on that though. The lack of exposure of our children to other viruses is a worry and will catch up (they're catching everything at the minute and it's summer).
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Are you posting the results pud?
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Are you posting the results pud?
Most of the time no, it gets forgotten amongst the miriad of other things to do.
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Are you posting the results pud?
Most of the time no, it gets forgotten amongst the miriad of other things to do.
It takes 30 seconds.
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Are you posting the results pud?
Most of the time no, it gets forgotten amongst the miriad of other things to do.
It takes 30 seconds.
A little longer often, but even so by the time 20 minutes pass it's easy to forget. Regardless of whether my admin is perfect or not it's a perfectly reasonable reason why so many aren't logged as used.
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We have different takes BFYP. I think we have a moral obligation to do this so that those advising policy have the best possible data. It takes less time than it takes to have a piss and you only need to do it maybe twice a week. Not trying to be sanctimonious here but I've taken 19 LF tests and logged every one on the NHS and Zoe sites. It's a microscopic inconvenience for a potentially very big societal benefit.
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Only if you can piss longer and farther than anyone else.
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We have different takes BFYP. I think we have a moral obligation to do this so that those advising policy have the best possible data. It takes less time than it takes to have a piss and you only need to do it maybe twice a week. Not trying to be sanctimonious here but I've taken 19 LF tests and logged every one on the NHS and Zoe sites. It's a microscopic inconvenience for a potentially very big societal benefit.
With respect my morals are fine and with the many tests, blood tests etc I do for covid research (significantly more than 19) I probably spend vastly more time providing scientific evidence than many.
The point was to state part of the reason, it is easy to forget with the tonnes of other things going on at the same time when these tests are done, specifically when there's nothing to prompt you to remind you to complete the results etc, which perhaps there should be.
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BFYP
I wasn't having a go at your morals in that sense. The phrase I used meant that I think we all have a responsibility to do what we can to defeat this bas**rd and it sounds like you do a lot more than me.
But I don't get how people would forget to log the tests. At some point you check the equipment to see what the result is. Surely THAT is the point at which you record the result?
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For the record, I do find the test reporting website unnecessarily cumbersome. I've entered exactly the same boilerplate details for every test, and you'd think a sensibly designed system would default to those and ask if you want to change them, rather than requiring them to be input again. Then it would take 5 seconds to report rather than 30 seconds.
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It may be worth noting, the 3 boxes I have game from 2 sources ( pharmacy and official testing site) and neither asked that results be notified centrally
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Ldr.
If it's the same kits that I've had (and mine have come from 4 different sources) it directly tells you in the instructions to record your result. I was also asked to do that every time I've picked up kits from the local test centre.
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Doesn’t say in mine
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This is the instruction leaflet I've had with every batch of LF tests.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/957271/COVID-19-self-test-instructions.pdf
Page 15.
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Dido the Disaster and her T+T has been called out by the HoC report;
https://www.theregister.com/2021/10/12/mp_report_test_and_trace/
What sanctions are proposed to bring these dodgy deals to account by the custard fart....none that I can see!
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We have never tested or downloaded the app and will never do so. Even if we are ill. Our kid has been attending school since April where they are supposed to test twice a week but we have refused testing from day 1.
Unsurprisingly all the kids and their parents are still alive over 6 months on and their more vulnerable Grandparents have had their jabs. On we go.
Visited Buxton Museum a view weeks ago and the lady greeting us asked us if we wanted to leave our tracing details or download track and trace and i said no thanks. She let us in anyway as legally there is nothing she could have done. Nice, friendly lady though, but just that we refuse to participate in this charade.
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£37Bn, a waste of money and still counting, sheesh
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£37Bn, a waste of money and still counting, sheesh
While it is a lot of money and you would
Think there would of been a cheaper way and better way, it's not all a waste of money
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Absolutley bpool. As I said my experience of it was pretty good and strong, quite odd to think it's seen as a failure.
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''The report also criticised the handling of the cash awarded to NHS test and trace. It said the programme has still not managed to cut the number of expensive contractors paid an average of £1,100 a day. Some have been paid rates of more than £6,000 a day''
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''“Only 14% of 691m lateral flow tests sent out had results reported, and who knows how many took the necessary action based on the results they got, or how many were never used. The continued reliance on the over-priced consultants who ‘delivered’ this state of affairs will by itself cost the taxpayer hundreds of millions of pounds.”''
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''NHS Test and Trace is a government-funded service in England, established in 2020 to track and help prevent the spread of COVID-19. Despite its name, the programme is not in fact run by the NHS but is part of the UK Health Security Agency; the service and the agency are headed by Jenny Harries''
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHS_Test_and_Trace#:~:text=NHS%20Test%20and%20Trace%20is,are%20headed%20by%20Jenny%20Harries.
''Dr Simon Clarke, associate professor in cellular microbiology at the University of Reading, said the MPs’ report exposed “a great many shortcomings in the NHS test and trace service”.
“Harding previously boasted that the operation was [the] size of Tesco, without conceding that the supermarket chain actually works,” he said. “Greater attention seems to have been paid to headline-grabbing initiatives to build up the system than to ensuring it actually did its job.”
He added: “Failure to cut infections could mean that we suffered more sickness and death, and longer time spent living under restrictions than would otherwise have been the case.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/27/nhs-test-and-trace-failed-its-main-objective-says-spending-watchdog
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And that's the problem.
We've spent a phenomenal amount on "test". And done and excellent job on that.
But we have been a disaster on "trace" and enforcing isolation.
Other countries have managed the process better and have better outcomes for less cost.
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Quite agree they could have done things better, on that first link syd posted people are slagging it off but saying they were pestered when had to isolate, I find that a bit hypocritical
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Link to the actual report here
https://committees.parliament.uk/work/1299/test-and-trace-2/news/158262/muddled-overstated-eyewateringly-expensive-pac-damning-on-test-trace-that-has-failed-on-main-objectives/
Not a good look, from the point of view of the public finances.....or effectiveness....or accountability!
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Quite agree they could have done things better, on that first link syd posted people are slagging it off but saying they were pestered when had to isolate, I find that a bit hypocritical
That sound's like teacher's remark for just passing, they failed miserably and if the system was shown not to be working as it did very early, they should have changed to another plan. 'Didn't meet it's main objective' I think they found.
Added
“Muddled, overstated, eye-wateringly expensive”: PAC damning on Test & Trace that has “failed on main objectives”
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Testing to see if you're poorly.
2021.
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The notion that you could run a national trace and isolate system from a call centre in Milton Keynes was just bonkers from the off.
A bit like trying to solve a murder in Leeds from a call centre in Brighton.
All the regional public health experts knew what was required, ironically from decades of experience of limiting the spread of STDs in local communities. Yet Hancock and Harding knew better. Both since sacked of course.
That £37bn - billion!! - is money you and I will never get back.
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The notion that you could run a national trace and isolate system from a call centre in Milton Keynes was just bonkers from the off.
A bit like trying to solve a murder in Leeds from a call centre in Brighton.
All the regional public health experts knew what was required, ironically from decades of experience of limiting the spread of STDs in local communities. Yet Hancock and Harding knew better. Both since sacked of course.
That £37bn - billion!! - is money you and I will never get back.
I guess the Lansley Act had something to do with that BH.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/31/how-a-decade-of-privatisation-and-cuts-exposed-england-to-coronavirus
Build back what you broke
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(https://i.imgur.com/4TnjXqz.jpg)
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One of the reasons why the government are stalling on a public inquiry into the pandemic.
You just know that what it'd reveal around this whole procurement fiasco would be jaw-dropping.
Instead we'll have to look forward to the Scottish Govt inquiry, due to start in a couple of months' time, which could well act as a proxy.
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No comments from the Tory apologists I see.
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No comments from the Tory apologists I see.
It's hard for them to argue against a parliamentary committee's own findings....
https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/127/public-accounts-committee/news/150988/unimaginable-cost-of-test-trace-failed-to-deliver-central-promise-of-averting-another-lockdown/