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Quote from: TommyC on May 18, 2022, 08:53:34 pmI was being facetious yes. Having said that, I would nevertheless still ask why you would give someone shares that are worthless? When given to an employee as one poster has suggested they do still tend to have value as a reward or bonus or in some form of salary sacrifice arrangement. It could be in return for a job well done for example. Hopefully that isn't the case here. Either way though, they tend to have value either through being able to be sold on or through conveying some form of dividend or a right to payment on a sale of the Company.I agree the VSCs shares in the subsidiary DRFC will be worth nothing. They probably will have little to no voting rights and most definitely won't have a right to a dividend. They're a token gesture. They represent 100k shares out of a total share capital of in excess of 33 million shares....in the subsidiary company. As you say, utterly worthless.However I'm talking about the 96 million shares that GB and DB EACH hold in the topco (Club Doncaster) that actually owns and controls DRFC. Their respective 96 million shares each is the exact same amount of shares as held by TB. Please could you explain to me how a football club works Silent Majority? Our shares are not in a subsidiary company, and that token gesture cost the VSC in excess of £100,000.
I was being facetious yes. Having said that, I would nevertheless still ask why you would give someone shares that are worthless? When given to an employee as one poster has suggested they do still tend to have value as a reward or bonus or in some form of salary sacrifice arrangement. It could be in return for a job well done for example. Hopefully that isn't the case here. Either way though, they tend to have value either through being able to be sold on or through conveying some form of dividend or a right to payment on a sale of the Company.I agree the VSCs shares in the subsidiary DRFC will be worth nothing. They probably will have little to no voting rights and most definitely won't have a right to a dividend. They're a token gesture. They represent 100k shares out of a total share capital of in excess of 33 million shares....in the subsidiary company. As you say, utterly worthless.However I'm talking about the 96 million shares that GB and DB EACH hold in the topco (Club Doncaster) that actually owns and controls DRFC. Their respective 96 million shares each is the exact same amount of shares as held by TB. Please could you explain to me how a football club works Silent Majority?
Quote from: silent majority on May 19, 2022, 01:36:30 pmQuote from: Chris Black come back on May 19, 2022, 10:36:24 amTerry is not going to be involved for that much longer. The guy is 80 this year. He won’t need this hassle at his age. We’ve got to get soon to a stage where we are relatively sustainable. This gives us some stability for when he is not involved, and potentially then make us a more attractive option for external investment that might come. To get there we either have to cut outgoings or increase incomings. We have to choose one of them. We're already at that point.So TB is no longer putting funds into the club and the funds for the club are coming from Club Doncaster ???
Quote from: Chris Black come back on May 19, 2022, 10:36:24 amTerry is not going to be involved for that much longer. The guy is 80 this year. He won’t need this hassle at his age. We’ve got to get soon to a stage where we are relatively sustainable. This gives us some stability for when he is not involved, and potentially then make us a more attractive option for external investment that might come. To get there we either have to cut outgoings or increase incomings. We have to choose one of them. We're already at that point.
Terry is not going to be involved for that much longer. The guy is 80 this year. He won’t need this hassle at his age. We’ve got to get soon to a stage where we are relatively sustainable. This gives us some stability for when he is not involved, and potentially then make us a more attractive option for external investment that might come. To get there we either have to cut outgoings or increase incomings. We have to choose one of them.
Quote from: silent majority on May 19, 2022, 01:30:01 pmQuote from: TommyC on May 18, 2022, 08:53:34 pmI was being facetious yes. Having said that, I would nevertheless still ask why you would give someone shares that are worthless? When given to an employee as one poster has suggested they do still tend to have value as a reward or bonus or in some form of salary sacrifice arrangement. It could be in return for a job well done for example. Hopefully that isn't the case here. Either way though, they tend to have value either through being able to be sold on or through conveying some form of dividend or a right to payment on a sale of the Company.I agree the VSCs shares in the subsidiary DRFC will be worth nothing. They probably will have little to no voting rights and most definitely won't have a right to a dividend. They're a token gesture. They represent 100k shares out of a total share capital of in excess of 33 million shares....in the subsidiary company. As you say, utterly worthless.However I'm talking about the 96 million shares that GB and DB EACH hold in the topco (Club Doncaster) that actually owns and controls DRFC. Their respective 96 million shares each is the exact same amount of shares as held by TB. Please could you explain to me how a football club works Silent Majority? Our shares are not in a subsidiary company, and that token gesture cost the VSC in excess of £100,000. Three points from Silent Majority's replies:1. Doncaster Rovers Limited owns the football club assets. Sitting above that, Club Doncaster Limited owns 98.424% of the shares in Doncaster Rovers Limited and exercises absolute control over Doncaster Rovers Limited. I would say that is indeed a subsidiary and Club Doncaster is the Holding Company. The VSC holds a shareholding equivalent to 0.32% of the issued share capital in Doncaster Rovers Limited. Doncaster Rugby League Limited is a wholly owned subsidiary of Club Doncaster. Doncaster Rovers Limited is a 98.424% owned subsidiary of Club Doncaster. Club Doncaster effectively owns and controls them both.2. I remember the much publicised "memorandum of understanding" to which you refer. I'm sure you'll correct me if i'm wrong here but it's not legally binding though is it? If they wanted real power to attach the shares given to the VSC, they could have simply issued the VSC with one share (a "golden share" as it is sometimes called) that had certain rights of veto or enhanced decision making powers. They didn't do that. If Club Doncaster being the holders of 98.4% of the Shares in Doncaster Rovers wanted to take a certain course of action that the VSC disagreed with, what ability the VSC has to alter that? What magic rights does that 0.32% confer? I'm genuinely interested to know. I suspect the answer with be nothing. We all know that £100k of shares wont be able to be sold or monetised in any way. So what rights to they actually confer to the VSC? There are no different rights attached to the shares in issue according to Companies House however i'd presume there is a separate Shareholders Agreement is in existence that gives the VSC some teeth. Without it i struggle to see where any value or influence attaches to those 107,000 shares held by thh VSC. 3. On the one hand you strive to defenfd the value of the 107,000 (0.32% of the whole) shares held by the VSC in a subsidiary of Club Doncaster and cite the £100,000 paid. Conversely, you suggest the 96 million shares held by Gavin Baldwin and David Blunt in the holding company that has absolute control over both Doncaster Rovers Limited and Doncaster Rugby League Limited are worthless. Which is it to be?
Quote from: steve@dcfd on May 19, 2022, 06:27:28 pmQuote from: silent majority on May 19, 2022, 01:36:30 pmQuote from: Chris Black come back on May 19, 2022, 10:36:24 amTerry is not going to be involved for that much longer. The guy is 80 this year. He won’t need this hassle at his age. We’ve got to get soon to a stage where we are relatively sustainable. This gives us some stability for when he is not involved, and potentially then make us a more attractive option for external investment that might come. To get there we either have to cut outgoings or increase incomings. We have to choose one of them. We're already at that point.So TB is no longer putting funds into the club and the funds for the club are coming from Club Doncaster ???It's not that simple, nor as black and white as you'd like it to be.TB has always stated that he's prepared to fund the club and to ensure it has a bright future by the club becoming sustainable during his tenure. That means if he's no longer here the club survives and can maintain its status.So, is the club sustainable today? Yes, sort of. It could survive if TB left tomorrow. However the club would be on a bit of a knife edge and lets say a global pandemic occurred then we'd be in trouble. Or lets say we need to recruit 8 new players in the January window, then we couldn't do that. Or lets say we had a large VAT bill to pay, could we do that?The point I'm making is that yes, Club Doncaster is capable of being sustainable today, but without TB it would be an uncomfortable and less ambitious DRFC.
Quote from: silent majority on May 20, 2022, 10:08:05 amQuote from: steve@dcfd on May 19, 2022, 06:27:28 pmQuote from: silent majority on May 19, 2022, 01:36:30 pmQuote from: Chris Black come back on May 19, 2022, 10:36:24 amTerry is not going to be involved for that much longer. The guy is 80 this year. He won’t need this hassle at his age. We’ve got to get soon to a stage where we are relatively sustainable. This gives us some stability for when he is not involved, and potentially then make us a more attractive option for external investment that might come. To get there we either have to cut outgoings or increase incomings. We have to choose one of them. We're already at that point.So TB is no longer putting funds into the club and the funds for the club are coming from Club Doncaster ???It's not that simple, nor as black and white as you'd like it to be.TB has always stated that he's prepared to fund the club and to ensure it has a bright future by the club becoming sustainable during his tenure. That means if he's no longer here the club survives and can maintain its status.So, is the club sustainable today? Yes, sort of. It could survive if TB left tomorrow. However the club would be on a bit of a knife edge and lets say a global pandemic occurred then we'd be in trouble. Or lets say we need to recruit 8 new players in the January window, then we couldn't do that. Or lets say we had a large VAT bill to pay, could we do that?The point I'm making is that yes, Club Doncaster is capable of being sustainable today, but without TB it would be an uncomfortable and less ambitious DRFC.I would imagine that future investors would be easier to attract due to the current position we are in financially ie "Club Doncaster model" in the event that TB is no longer involved
S_MOne thing that's intrigued me and I've never pushed for an answer. In terms of setting the budget, what streams of income are taken into account to determine the budget for the forthcoming season? 1. Projected ST sales and match ticket sales plus car parking, lottery, shirt sales etc., etc? 2. A Proportion of Club Doncaster income from non football related activities? 3. Owners contribution? 4. EFL solidarity payments etc? Appreciate there may not be a simple answer to this one but as a guide, in percentage terms, what are the contributions of each of the above? Or, is the budget set on projected income with the owners (TB) picking up the loss at the end of each season? Or, is it worked out using the total wage limit as % of total turnover? This is not a loaded question btw, but might be helpful as a guide.
Quote from: DonnyBazR0ver on May 20, 2022, 07:39:06 pmS_MOne thing that's intrigued me and I've never pushed for an answer. In terms of setting the budget, what streams of income are taken into account to determine the budget for the forthcoming season? 1. Projected ST sales and match ticket sales plus car parking, lottery, shirt sales etc., etc? 2. A Proportion of Club Doncaster income from non football related activities? 3. Owners contribution? 4. EFL solidarity payments etc? Appreciate there may not be a simple answer to this one but as a guide, in percentage terms, what are the contributions of each of the above? Or, is the budget set on projected income with the owners (TB) picking up the loss at the end of each season? Or, is it worked out using the total wage limit as % of total turnover? This is not a loaded question btw, but might be helpful as a guide. Hi Baz,Well, they use all those streams but plenty of others too. In simple terms we, as a club, have a different make up of income compared to others at our level, but essentially it breaks down into 'thirds'. Solidarity payments are about a third of our income, ticket sales another third with commercial activities making up the final third. In that respect we look more like an EPL club than an EFL club.Its our commercial activities that separate us from other clubs around us, we're just so much better at it than others. A lot of that is because of the lease on the stadium, we can squeeze it to make more money, i.e. rental income from office space, car boot sales, concerts etc.As for setting the budget, that's easy, take all the income, subtract the cost of the operation and what you have left is the budget.
Quote from: silent majority on May 21, 2022, 10:52:55 amQuote from: DonnyBazR0ver on May 20, 2022, 07:39:06 pmS_MOne thing that's intrigued me and I've never pushed for an answer. In terms of setting the budget, what streams of income are taken into account to determine the budget for the forthcoming season? 1. Projected ST sales and match ticket sales plus car parking, lottery, shirt sales etc., etc? 2. A Proportion of Club Doncaster income from non football related activities? 3. Owners contribution? 4. EFL solidarity payments etc? Appreciate there may not be a simple answer to this one but as a guide, in percentage terms, what are the contributions of each of the above? Or, is the budget set on projected income with the owners (TB) picking up the loss at the end of each season? Or, is it worked out using the total wage limit as % of total turnover? This is not a loaded question btw, but might be helpful as a guide. Hi Baz,Well, they use all those streams but plenty of others too. In simple terms we, as a club, have a different make up of income compared to others at our level, but essentially it breaks down into 'thirds'. Solidarity payments are about a third of our income, ticket sales another third with commercial activities making up the final third. In that respect we look more like an EPL club than an EFL club.Its our commercial activities that separate us from other clubs around us, we're just so much better at it than others. A lot of that is because of the lease on the stadium, we can squeeze it to make more money, i.e. rental income from office space, car boot sales, concerts etc.As for setting the budget, that's easy, take all the income, subtract the cost of the operation and what you have left is the budget.Thanks S_M. That certainly appears to indicate the club is in a healthy state and able to stand on our own two feet.Where does the owners contribution come in? Are they underwriting losses that may or may not accrue at the end of each financial year or a they actively contributing up front to the annual playing budget?
Could JR have run the club sustainably and successfully in a football capacity? That’s the holy grail. I think not. Can the current owners? I don’t think so. Is it possible? Very much so. For the record, I deem success as constant over performing compared to the budget available.
Quote from: GazLaz on May 19, 2022, 09:38:41 amCould JR have run the club sustainably and successfully in a football capacity? That’s the holy grail. I think not. Can the current owners? I don’t think so. Is it possible? Very much so. For the record, I deem success as constant over performing compared to the budget available. Over performing compared to our budget .. Not so !! We’ve had a reasonable budget but It’s not how much you spend , it’s who you spend it on . When ever we’ve paid a fee ie Ben Whiteman or just invested it’s the player John Marquis even Alfie May it’s shown a return . An intelligent experience Manager and Board of Directors with ambition and a focus on the performance will always find away .
Is there a parachute payment from the championship to league one ?
That’s not to say that Rotherham don’t have their problems either. Ladapo refused to sign a new deal I believe and left, presumably as he believed he could get a better deal elsewhere. Largely though I would imagine we have a very similar financial profile to Rotherham yet they are consistently better than us and clearly recruit better than us.Without getting obsessed by this point, it is assumption being used, as several years ago Rovers stopped publishing information regarding our basic income and expenditure, which is at odds with most league clubs. A regrettable decision.
Not words I ever thought I would say, but Rotherham United is probably about as good as it gets for us - a consistently strong League One side that can regularly make an appearance in the Championship. Looking at their accounts for last season 2020/21 in the Championship - and that was a COVID disrupted season - there is a model there. That season their wage bill was £8m and their income from the central distribution (ie money received just for being in the Championship) was almost exactly the same. So they covered their wage bill with ‘free money’ before even accounting for their matchday income (zero in 2020/21 due to COVID but the previous season was £1.8m in League One) and commercial (£2m in both 2020/21 and 2019/20).It is very unfortunate that Rovers stopped several years ago publishing similar information which nigh on every league club publishes, but given the Rotherham stadium size and similar unfashionability, I cannot believe we don’t get very similar matchday income or commercial income. The better comparison is 2019/20 which was largely not disrupted by COVID and Rotherham were in League One like us. That season their wage bill was around £5.6m, while their central distribution was £2.6m, matchday income £1.7m and commercial income £2.2m. By comparison, that season our average gates were broadly comparable at 8,900 for Rotherham and 8,300 for us. So their wage bill (which looks significantly in excess of our wage bill for that season, I would guess) was easily covered by their income, and that is before the £2.1m they received that season from transfer income, which should be seen as a bonus. Due to the total absence of transparency on our income and expenditure, it is very hard to see what Rovers receive and spend, but given the Rotherham books appear to show they are absolutely sustainable and have a healthy wage bill that with a good manager and model, allows them to compete at a level, that is realistic for us to aspire to.
Rotherham Fan at work reckons they need a complete change of Squad to stay up