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Quote from: danumdon on May 05, 2022, 06:29:20 pmBRR, I think on this one you have to accept that when a country is invaded or has an internal ethnic power struggle that there will be recriminations in any action that is taken to protect ones homeland, this as others have said will be looked into in the cold light of day and judged appropriately.The bigger picture is that Putin instigated this conflict following on from his deeds in Crimea, in this case the Ukrainians have only reacted to this outright genocide from The Russians. This needed to be stood up to ,any other allegations will be settled after this conflict. Be sure, this is one war that this Psychotic Lunatic will not be allowed to parade as an outright victory. For the sake of us all."deeds in Crimea" - are you talking annexation, invasion, free vote of mainly self declared Russians resulting in a 90%+ decision to leave Ukraine after a coup displacing the previously elected president with a following murderous rampage against ehtnic Russians in the country, or Russians committing genocide?
BRR, I think on this one you have to accept that when a country is invaded or has an internal ethnic power struggle that there will be recriminations in any action that is taken to protect ones homeland, this as others have said will be looked into in the cold light of day and judged appropriately.The bigger picture is that Putin instigated this conflict following on from his deeds in Crimea, in this case the Ukrainians have only reacted to this outright genocide from The Russians. This needed to be stood up to ,any other allegations will be settled after this conflict. Be sure, this is one war that this Psychotic Lunatic will not be allowed to parade as an outright victory. For the sake of us all.
BRRWhich side started the violence in 2014, by firing on peaceful demonstrators. If you insist on following Mariupol back to an Original Sin, answer that one.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on May 06, 2022, 03:08:42 pmBRRWhich side started the violence in 2014, by firing on peaceful demonstrators. If you insist on following Mariupol back to an Original Sin, answer that one. And there you are telling me how it haooened as if you're a BBC reporter. They were not peaceful demonstrators. Who gave the instructions to use live rounds is debateable though v likely instructions given by pro yankee to incite the situation.
I give up.Forces under the control of the Russian-Ukraine President opened fire on peaceful demonstrators. And it's the Americans to blame.It's like arguing with a Christian fundamentalist. Doesn't matter what argument you come up with, it's always the will of God or America.
Danumdon - its a ahame the United States has interferred so much in the internal processes of the Ukraine. And their purpose was to stir up tje mess that we are seeing. Tjey are as sick as or worse than Russia.
You will be telling us the Cuban Revolution and 1917 Russian Revolution were coups next BRR.Or is it an overthrow of a vicious, repressive regime by local people that you like = revolution. An overthrow of a vicious, repressive regime by local people that you dont like - coup?Russia has intereferred in Ukraine ever since Putin came to power - because he doesnt think Ukraine should exist. His troops carrying out his orders under his invasion have committed multiple atrocities on thousands of Ukranian civilians. No Ukranian soldier has been on Russian soil. You are excusing a fascist dictator and I am afraid on the wrong side of history here.
My grandad who was the finest socialist and the smartest man I ever knew once told me, "Never argue with Jehovah's Witnesses or The Far Left." I'm remembering why now, after engaging with BRR.
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on May 06, 2022, 09:54:32 pmDanumdon - its a ahame the United States has interferred so much in the internal processes of the Ukraine. And their purpose was to stir up tje mess that we are seeing. Tjey are as sick as or worse than Russia. OK, lets get this right, so you believe that internal machinations in the Ukraine has required the Russians to invade an independent country, annex parts of it after holding unconstitutional referendums, kill countless thousands of none combatant old people,women and children, physically wipe out a great many towns and villages of every habitual building or service, managed to tamper with a nuclear disaster zone to the extent that radiation levels reached higher then they were post the original meltdown,pour in thousands more young and conscript personnel to meet their grisly ends in the burnt out remains of armored vehicles and tanks and generally threaten a vast swave of northern and eastern Europe of unimaginable horrors if they so much as mention the word NATO,.Finally we have the individual himself, Putin the cancer riddled despot, who sits at his ridicules oversized table, scheming and yearning for years for a greater USSR again without a care or passing thought for all the millions of people in countless countries he has either intimidated, threatened, maimed or killed during his reign as the despotic and deranged one state, all time leader of this dysfunctional country.And YOU want to blame the USA and the free west for all of this.Nutter.
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on May 06, 2022, 09:10:05 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on May 06, 2022, 03:08:42 pmBRRWhich side started the violence in 2014, by firing on peaceful demonstrators. If you insist on following Mariupol back to an Original Sin, answer that one. And there you are telling me how it haooened as if you're a BBC reporter. They were not peaceful demonstrators. Who gave the instructions to use live rounds is debateable though v likely instructions given by pro yankee to incite the situation. There has been lots of shit written on this thread, but the last sentence “Who gave the instructions to use live rounds is debateable though v likely instructions given by pro yankee to incite the situation. “Is up there with with the best/worst of them, it is absolutely laughable
I'd like to bet the Russians are commiting far more war crimes. They excuse it as fierce behaviour.BRR, I a am stunned. Stunned. At how you can excuse Russian aggression as you do.Faced with the choice of Russian oppression or Ameeican oppression, which would you choose?
Quote from: River Don on May 07, 2022, 09:48:45 pmI'd like to bet the Russians are commiting far more war crimes. They excuse it as fierce behaviour.BRR, I a am stunned. Stunned. At how you can excuse Russian aggression as you do.Faced with the choice of Russian oppression or Ameeican oppression, which would you choose? What is the excuse used by Ukraine forces for murdering civilians post 2014? Their excuse for using human shields?That choice of Russian v US oppression - how about stepping away from the dogma that you are being fed and choose neither? So much of political manipulation comes in the guise of two choices. You don't have to play that game. Think for yourself.
For someone who claims to countering the 'one-sided propoganda' you have yet to detail, or condem, the Russian interference in Ukraine ever since Putin came to power. For someone who claims to be a socialist you appear to have a dismisive attitude to people rising up against a repressive government they dont like in their country.You might think you are giving 'balance' but there is no balance to give when only one side is murdering civilians. All you are doing is legitimising fasicism. Putin doesn't care if you support him or not. What he wants you to do is attack and de-legitimise his enemies so he can crush them. I don't watch the BBC much, (the odd music programme, history doc & the rugby this am and wish I hadn't). But I can give you a list of all the people in Ukraine who I follow on twitter reporting the situation there if you like. You wont enjoy them tho, they tell the facts of what Putin is doing to there.
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on May 08, 2022, 06:27:41 pmQuote from: River Don on May 07, 2022, 09:48:45 pmI'd like to bet the Russians are commiting far more war crimes. They excuse it as fierce behaviour.BRR, I a am stunned. Stunned. At how you can excuse Russian aggression as you do.Faced with the choice of Russian oppression or Ameeican oppression, which would you choose? What is the excuse used by Ukraine forces for murdering civilians post 2014? Their excuse for using human shields?That choice of Russian v US oppression - how about stepping away from the dogma that you are being fed and choose neither? So much of political manipulation comes in the guise of two choices. You don't have to play that game. Think for yourself.It really is only two choices. Anglo style democracy, as flawed as that is or totalitarianism.I know which I'd go for
BRRDo you not think some aspects of Putin's rule are plainly fascistic?
Quote from: River Don on May 08, 2022, 06:51:35 pmBRRDo you not think some aspects of Putin's rule are plainly fascistic?Yes.
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on May 08, 2022, 06:53:51 pmQuote from: River Don on May 08, 2022, 06:51:35 pmBRRDo you not think some aspects of Putin's rule are plainly fascistic?Yes.Right which is better, an undemocratic Russian fascist or a Ukrainian democratic fascist?
Quote from: River Don on May 08, 2022, 06:51:35 pmBRRDo you not think some aspects of Putin's rule are plainly fascistic?Yes.
BRRDo you not think some aspects of Putin's rule are plainly fascistic?
Quote from: River Don on May 08, 2022, 06:57:01 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on May 08, 2022, 06:53:51 pmQuote from: River Don on May 08, 2022, 06:51:35 pmBRRDo you not think some aspects of Putin's rule are plainly fascistic?Yes.Right which is better, an undemocratic Russian fascist or a Ukrainian democratic fascist?A series of Ukrainian puppets with strings pulled by all the NATO, corporate, EU, bankers, who is there to milk the Ukranian people? Like I said, gangsters all of them. Putin may be more obvious, the West may be more insidious. Ukraine would do well to tell them all to feck off and run its country for its people without half the wealth disappearing to whatever external protection racket.
BRR.Remind me how Ukraine is supposed to tell Putin to f**k off?
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on May 08, 2022, 07:20:09 pmQuote from: River Don on May 08, 2022, 06:57:01 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on May 08, 2022, 06:53:51 pmQuote from: River Don on May 08, 2022, 06:51:35 pmBRRDo you not think some aspects of Putin's rule are plainly fascistic?Yes.Right which is better, an undemocratic Russian fascist or a Ukrainian democratic fascist?A series of Ukrainian puppets with strings pulled by all the NATO, corporate, EU, bankers, who is there to milk the Ukranian people? Like I said, gangsters all of them. Putin may be more obvious, the West may be more insidious. Ukraine would do well to tell them all to feck off and run its country for its people without half the wealth disappearing to whatever external protection racket.You really believe that?Most Ukrainians want to be a part of the EU. They want to join NATO Russian speakers in the East are fighting and resisting with everything they have against Russian repression.Honestly, I cannot understand your point of view.