Local Elections And Hartlepool

[SydneyRover]

Is there enough left labor voters to elect a labour government?

Have the left labour faction had enough time to display that they can take government?

You can't take out insurance against criticism if you don't vote labour and labout don't get elected.

[albie]

Labour have lost Scotland, and it is not coming back.

More boundary changes to come will make it even more skewed. As things stand, there will never be another Labour government under this system, IMO.

The only way forward is to join with others to form a coalition to reform the electoral system.
Brown ducked this when in power, and by doing so cost a generation their future under FPTP.

I find it perplexing that Starmer has alienated younger voters, in the cities, trying to chase soft Tories in the over 65 age group. There is no route to success via this strategy.

Appealing to the nearly dead, while pissing off the future electorate is a very strange priority.
It is almost like he is there to undermine the future of his own party!

[SydneyRover]

You could tell us how Starmer could win the young left city/town voter and retain the middle without which he can't take government.

And maybe answer the questioins I posed?

[albie]

Sorry Sydney, are you talking to me?

I said thatIMO  Labour cannot win under the current conditions.
If you, or anyone, can set out a path to success then please do.

Labour finding a winning formula is quite different to the Tories managing to lose credibility.
Johnson is very capable of catastrophic errors, as we have seen.

The difference is that he has teflon protection in the media ecosystem, so water flows off a duck's back!

[SydneyRover]

Albie, I'm posting to anyone on this thread that can see a way through and the left have to accept that they can't form a government on their own the population does not want that at this time. Therefore they will have to, as will all voters that don't want a tory government make efforts to support a group that can. I do not see as per voices on here that a coalition would work, some are carrying grudges almost from beyond the grave as to why they won't vote for labor (funny they never want to tell us why they vote and or support the election of the tories)

Take a leaf out of Bidens handbook on how to win, the tories are already following the GOP in trying to marginalise voters they don't want at the ballot box.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

You could tell us how Starmer could win the young left city/town voter and retain the middle without which he can't take government.

And maybe answer the questioins I posed?

The point on this is they can't. They want different things and are different people. Just because they are termed the left doesn't mean they have the same wants, ideas and political leanings.

That for me is the problem for labour.  The so called left has contrasting views in some areas and it's hard to see them unite together despite what anyone says.  There is not a huge amount in common than not liking another party in some cases, this inevitably the party cannot please them all.

Would they gain more votes attracting  the many Tory voters that are neither left or right wing?  Potentially.

[SydneyRover]

it was rhetorical yp, what would make you not vote for the tories? I assuming it would have to be something absolutely massive looking at their record over the last 10 years or so.

[Filo]

Don’t forget, Hartlepool is the place that elected a man in a monkey costume for the Mayor, they’re not blessed with brain cells up there

[tyke1962]

Don’t forget, Hartlepool is the place that elected a man in a monkey costume for the Mayor, they’re not blessed with brain cells up there

Aye , you carry on disrespecting the electorate because that's working really well isn't it in the former red wall .

[BillyStubbsTears]

You could tell us how Starmer could win the young left city/town voter and retain the middle without which he can't take government.

And maybe answer the questioins I posed?

The point on this is they can't. They want different things and are different people. Just because they are termed the left doesn't mean they have the same wants, ideas and political leanings.

That for me is the problem for labour.  The so called left has contrasting views in some areas and it's hard to see them unite together despite what anyone says.  There is not a huge amount in common than not liking another party in some cases, this inevitably the party cannot please them all.

Would they gain more votes attracting  the many Tory voters that are neither left or right wing?  Potentially.

Political views split Right-Left on economics and Authoritarian-Liberal on social views. The latter you could perhaps also cast as Nationalist-Internationalist.

The Tories tend to win because they sweep up all the Right economics vote and typically they don't split on the social views.

The problem for the Left is that there are too many people obsessing on the cultural/social issue which will always divide the Left. So the consistent majority in the country for Left economic approaches doesn't tend to lead to Labour Govts. And we see in here precisely why. Wes and Tyke both say they no longer support Labour, but for different reasons. Both can make a strong case why they are justified. But both miss the point that their actions are effectively giving the Tories the keys to No10 forever.

[albie]

Don’t forget, Hartlepool is the place that elected a man in a monkey costume for the Mayor, they’re not blessed with brain cells up there

Aye , you carry on disrespecting the electorate because that's working really well isn't it in the former red wall .

Filo,

Hangus the monkey was a result of Labour taking them for granted, and parachuting in an unsuitable candidate (Mandelson) from outside for the earlier GE.

Starmer has made exactly the same mistake.
So who is it who is lacking in the brains department?

[wilts rover]

So to simplyfy things and bring them down to a basic level:

people on the left of politics have a conscience and principles, so will only vote for the party that is closest to those principles.

people on the right of politics have no conscience, no prinicples and will vote for the party which says they are going to be cruelest to foreigners and reduce public services so they don't have to pay tax.

[selby]

  While Jess Philips and stabber Starmer , Lisa Nandy  and the cringe worthy Johnathan Ashworth are seen as the face of the Labour Party there is more chance of seeing rocking Horse doo doo than the party in office.
  Hangus by the way was the mascot of the football club who was a student and did very well before resigning to go to university I think and was well regarded for the job he did.
 

[drfchound]

So to simplyfy things and bring them down to a basic level:

people on the left of politics have a conscience and principles, so will only vote for the party that is closest to those principles.

people on the right of politics have no conscience, no prinicples and will vote for the party which says they are going to be cruelest to foreigners and reduce public services so they don't have to pay tax.

Wilts, from a totally neutral point of view, that post is just your opinion and is probably because of your very left persuasion.

[wilts rover]

So to simplyfy things and bring them down to a basic level:

people on the left of politics have a conscience and principles, so will only vote for the party that is closest to those principles.

people on the right of politics have no conscience, no prinicples and will vote for the party which says they are going to be cruelest to foreigners and reduce public services so they don't have to pay tax.

Wilts, from a totally neutral point of view, that post is just your opinion and is probably because of your very left persuasion.

It is based primarily on studying the views of people who write stuff as in the post above yours - which justify it almost perfectly

How else do you explain the popularity of a party:

where 88% of Tory ads for the 2019 election were fake or misleading - compared with 0% for Labour

https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/

and it is led by someone who has his own website and youtube channel recording the lies he has told parlaiment and the public

https://boris-johnson-lies.com/
https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1381152230095609865

Again, I think it is fits perfectly. Other posters can make their own assesment - its a free country (although not for much longer)

[drfchound]

Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.

[Hounslowrover]

The Tories said they wouldn't cut Foreign Aid, but the have,  I think it was in their Manifesto.

[drfchound]

That isn’t answering the question though mate.
It is actually very like what a politician might have said.

[selby]

  They don't need foreign aid, they come here for it now by boat.

[BillyStubbsTears]

  They don't need foreign aid, they come here for it now by boat.

Like...err...Philip Mountbatten did 98 years back. In a crib made from a fruit box. Fleeing a coup d'etat in his home country.

[scawsby steve]

Don’t forget, Hartlepool is the place that elected a man in a monkey costume for the Mayor, they’re not blessed with brain cells up there

Filo, after losing a Referendum and getting absolutely tonked in a General Election because of constant sneering and insults, I'd have thought you'd have learned your lesson by now, but you obviously haven't.

You'd better hope and pray there's a different approach in 2024, or Labour will get mullered again.

[wilts rover]

Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.

Dunno, they didn't win to be able to find out.

Unlike the Tory ad campaign - which did happen and you have nothing to say about i see

[drfchound]

Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.

Dunno, they didn't win to be able to find out.

Unlike the Tory ad campaign - which did happen and you have nothing to say about i see

The Labour manifesto was a car crash and was a big part of the massive loss they suffered.

[DonnyOsmond]

Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.

Dunno, they didn't win to be able to find out.

Unlike the Tory ad campaign - which did happen and you have nothing to say about i see

The Labour manifesto was a car crash and was a big part of the massive loss they suffered.

Which policies were you against?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

This thread sums up the problem many on the left have.  "Ah but the Tories...."

Many know what the Tories are, many want a credible alternative there is yet to be one and the left won't make it if there answer continues to be the Tories are evil etc...

The problem though that BST alludes to still exists for labour. The left of centre has many competing themes and the passion that exists there causes the rifts.  A more credible centrist party is probably the answer. That's to the right of many in labour thus labour remains in that consistent position of bein stuck between it's two sides.  Has it ever really won with a proper left wing set of policies?

To answer a prior question I'm probably never going to vote for a set of left wing policies in some areas, so where else do I put my vote?  Probably the lib Dems, but their policies last time around on brexit were woeful.

If I was a left wing voter I would have a number of options, credibly the other way I do not.

[SydneyRover]

And the problem for the majority is the right can win elections but cannot run the country without dividing it and can't keep it's collective fingers out of the till.

[drfchound]

Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.

Dunno, they didn't win to be able to find out.

Unlike the Tory ad campaign - which did happen and you have nothing to say about i see

The Labour manifesto was a car crash and was a big part of the massive loss they suffered.

Which policies were you against?

Not so much individual policies, more that they were promising things that were likely going to be difficult to deliver.
Financial pie in the sky in my opinion.
Corbyn himself was also an issue for many people and that cost them votes too, in my opinion.

[tyke1962]

You could tell us how Starmer could win the young left city/town voter and retain the middle without which he can't take government.

And maybe answer the questioins I posed?

The point on this is they can't. They want different things and are different people. Just because they are termed the left doesn't mean they have the same wants, ideas and political leanings.

That for me is the problem for labour.  The so called left has contrasting views in some areas and it's hard to see them unite together despite what anyone says.  There is not a huge amount in common than not liking another party in some cases, this inevitably the party cannot please them all.

Would they gain more votes attracting  the many Tory voters that are neither left or right wing?  Potentially.

Political views split Right-Left on economics and Authoritarian-Liberal on social views. The latter you could perhaps also cast as Nationalist-Internationalist.

The Tories tend to win because they sweep up all the Right economics vote and typically they don't split on the social views.

The problem for the Left is that there are too many people obsessing on the cultural/social issue which will always divide the Left. So the consistent majority in the country for Left economic approaches doesn't tend to lead to Labour Govts. And we see in here precisely why. Wes and Tyke both say they no longer support Labour, but for different reasons. Both can make a strong case why they are justified. But both miss the point that their actions are effectively giving the Tories the keys to No10 forever.

Death by a thousand compromises has run its course Billy for me .

Hartlepool was massively important to me on many levels

I've nowt left to give .

The damage caused this last week is massively substantial for me personally .

It's over .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.
So you are accepting a Tory Govt then. Like it or not, that is the logic of your position.
My own recent history is that I loathed much of Corbyn's take on foreign policy which was juvenile at best, dangerous at worst. But on balance, I still preferred his Labour party to an increasingly right wing Tory party that has frightening financial connections with the Kremlin. So I stayed in the Labour party and I was heavily involved in electioneering.

Because politics is never about getting the perfect outcome you want. It is about accepting compromises to prevent a worse outcome. There are way too many people on both wings of the Left who don't get that.

[DonnyOsmond]

Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.

Dunno, they didn't win to be able to find out.

Unlike the Tory ad campaign - which did happen and you have nothing to say about i see

The Labour manifesto was a car crash and was a big part of the massive loss they suffered.

Which policies were you against?

Not so much individual policies, more that they were promising things that were likely going to be difficult to deliver.
Financial pie in the sky in my opinion.
Corbyn himself was also an issue for many people and that cost them votes too, in my opinion.

Any imparticular?