No Brexit Extension

[tyke1962]

BB

Why would I not be comfortable with facts.

They are facts. I'm aware of them. I accept them.

The issue is, are you comfortable with processing facts? And assimilating new ones?

For far too many Leave supporters, those are the ONLY facts they process. It's like the event horizon of a black hole. Time stopped on 23 June 2016 and no subsequent facts ever penetrated their mental processes.

Tyke has just chucked his lot in with them.

Aye so much so Billy that there's nothing more I like to see than negotiations suspended for at least 18 months with the EU so that we can both address the significant economic effects the pandemic will cause .

[BillyStubbsTears]

That's great Tyke. Lovely wish.

The trouble is, of course, that your vote enable the current crew that we have in charge. You. Voting for Brexit. You put Cummings and Johnson in Downing St.

I suggest you go and have a word with them about that 18 month delay.

[tyke1962]

That's great Tyke. Lovely wish.

The trouble is, of course, that your vote enable the current crew that we have in charge. You. Voting for Brexit. You put Cummings and Johnson in Downing St.

I suggest you go and have a word with them about that 18 month delay.

There's actually a significant flaw with that assessment Billy .

The Leave vote attained 17.4m votes in the 2016 referendum .

The Tory vote in the 2017 GE was 13.6m.

The Tory vote in the 2019 GE was 13.9m

Your 4m votes short of making your assessment a Fact with two goes for the price of one .

[EasyforDennis]

Unfortunately your argument has flaws Tyke. Traditional Tory voters will always vote Tory. Many Tories voted remain. The real fools in all of this are the "working class" traditional labour voters who were sold a Brexit built on lies and false promises. Plus don't forget many of the older generation wanted rid of all the "foreigners"!!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

You're missing the point.

The entire Brexit process was always and only ever about who rules the Tory party.

Your vote in 2016 was crucial to Johnson's plan to climb the pole. You have him a hand up.

You put him in No.10. Him and Cummings.

[scawsby steve]

Tyke.

You're missing the point.

The entire Brexit process was always and only ever about who rules the Tory party.

Your vote in 2016 was crucial to Johnson's plan to climb the pole. You have him a hand up.

You put him in No.10. Him and Cummings.

Totally wrong. Your Party put the Tories in No 10 by refusing to acknowledge the result of the biggest democratic referendum in history.

I honestly can't see what's so difficult to understand about that.

[BillyStubbsTears]

SS.

Johnson was in No10 before the 2019 election.

And if you think Labour would have turfed him out then by embracing Leave, you are truly away with the fairies. Did you see what happened to Labour support when Corbyn flirted with that in early 2019?

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

You're missing the point.

The entire Brexit process was always and only ever about who rules the Tory party.

Your vote in 2016 was crucial to Johnson's plan to climb the pole. You have him a hand up.

You put him in No.10. Him and Cummings.

You see Billy the problem you have is that I personally didn't become a leaver in 2016 .

I became a leaver around 1992 / 93 when Major signed us up to the Maastricht treaty , you are aware Major was a Tory PM I take it .

Which would be at the point when it became a neoliberal project and not a socially democratic one .

So it would be easy for me to spin this one around and point the finger and say Billy is a supporter of John Major and the Tory Party that caused all this EU shyte in the first place .

The problem with that is that I know your not a Tory and deep down you know I'm not given our exchanges on this forum .

So let's say we cut the cr@p and agree we have different views of the EU .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

I see you're floundering, but that's a really poor argument. We didn't have a vote on the Maastricht treaty, so how you derive me supporting Major is quite beyond me.

I'll say again, anyone on the Left who genuinely thought that voting Leave in 2016 was going to advance the cause of the Left or the working class...just bizarre logic. Brexit was only ever about who ruled the Tory party and the rest is just collateral damage.

[selby]

  Billy, it is a good job we don't have to use phone box's now. You would beat yourself up every day.

[scawsby steve]

SS.

Johnson was in No10 before the 2019 election.

And if you think Labour would have turfed him out then by embracing Leave, you are truly away with the fairies. Did you see what happened to Labour support when Corbyn flirted with that in early 2019?

Yes, you've caught me out with a rare slip in semantics there. I should have said that your Party caused the Tories to obtain an 80 seat majority. That would never have happened had Labour respected the Referendum result.

2019 was a revenge vote. However, you can relax. It was probably just a one-off.

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

I see you're floundering, but that's a really poor argument. We didn't have a vote on the Maastricht treaty, so how you derive me supporting Major is quite beyond me.

I'll say again, anyone on the Left who genuinely thought that voting Leave in 2016 was going to advance the cause of the Left or the working class...just bizarre logic. Brexit was only ever about who ruled the Tory party and the rest is just collateral damage.

Well it was Heath's Tory government who took us in .

It was Major's Tory government who signed us up to the Maastricht Treaty .

The only claim to fame you have is Blair adopting the Social Chapter I'll give you that .

Vote or not you have supported Tory policy .

Yes - No ?

[BillyStubbsTears]

SS.

Johnson was in No10 before the 2019 election.

And if you think Labour would have turfed him out then by embracing Leave, you are truly away with the fairies. Did you see what happened to Labour support when Corbyn flirted with that in early 2019?

Yes, you've caught me out with a rare slip in semantics there. I should have said that your Party caused the Tories to obtain an 80 seat majority. That would never have happened had Labour respected the Referendum result.

2019 was a revenge vote. However, you can relax. It was probably just a one-off.

Absolute nonsense.

If Labour had actively supported the Brexit that emerged in 2018 and 2019, a Brexit that was FAR harder than anything ever discussed in 2016, they would not have got 20% last December.

You DO know that Labour was prepared to support a Brexit that had us remaining in the SM and CU don't you?

The sort of deal that was thrown out by the Johnson wing of the Tory party as a betrayal of the vote.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

I see you're floundering, but that's a really poor argument. We didn't have a vote on the Maastricht treaty, so how you derive me supporting Major is quite beyond me.

I'll say again, anyone on the Left who genuinely thought that voting Leave in 2016 was going to advance the cause of the Left or the working class...just bizarre logic. Brexit was only ever about who ruled the Tory party and the rest is just collateral damage.

Well it was Heath's Tory government who took us in .

It was Major's Tory government who signed us up to the Maastricht Treaty .

The only claim to fame you have is Blair adopting the Social Chapter I'll give you that .

Vote or not you have supported Tory policy .

Yes - No ?

That's just ridiculous.

I supported LABOUR party policy in the 2016 referendum.

You supported the policy of Johnson and Farage.

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

I see you're floundering, but that's a really poor argument. We didn't have a vote on the Maastricht treaty, so how you derive me supporting Major is quite beyond me.

I'll say again, anyone on the Left who genuinely thought that voting Leave in 2016 was going to advance the cause of the Left or the working class...just bizarre logic. Brexit was only ever about who ruled the Tory party and the rest is just collateral damage.

Well it was Heath's Tory government who took us in .

It was Major's Tory government who signed us up to the Maastricht Treaty .

The only claim to fame you have is Blair adopting the Social Chapter I'll give you that .

Vote or not you have supported Tory policy .

Yes - No ?

That's just ridiculous.

I supported LABOUR party policy in the 2016 referendum.

You supported the policy of Johnson and Farage.

I can out date Farage and Johnson by a considerable amount of years Billy , I've at least 20 years on Johnson for starters .

Maybe you should contact Skinner and accuse him of supporting Johnson , Cummings and Farage and see how that works out .

Give it a go , I guarantee he will reply .

[BillyStubbsTears]

It doesn't matter what people argue. It doesn't change the facts.

People of the Left who voted Leave were complicit in Johnson's and Farage's project. Wittingly or not. That's not up for debate. it is a fact.

[tyke1962]

It doesn't matter what people argue. It doesn't change the facts.

People of the Left who voted Leave were complicit in Johnson's and Farage's project. Wittingly or not. That's not up for debate. it is a fact.

I'm talking about one of the most principled man who has ever walked through the door in the HOC .

Principles that commanded respect on both sides of the house whether they agreed with him or not .

A man who would have fought the Tories with his teeth before he'd give up .

And you want to place him in the same box as Johnson , Cummings and Farage just because they don't agree with you .

Says more about you Billy it really does .

[Not Now Kato]

Huh!  What has the EU ever done for us?
 

1. Full access to the largest trading bloc in the world.
2. Free trade deals with dozens of countries around the world, including Japan, Canada and South Korea.
3. Frictionless borders allowing for just-in-time manufacturing, supporting millions of jobs in the auto industry, aerospace etc.
4. Wide-open border between Northern Ireland and Ireland, with no customs or other checks between NI and the rest of the UK.
5. Active support for the Good Friday Agreement and Irish peace process (NI benefitted from PEACE funding of over 1.5 billion euro between 1995 and 2020)
6. Beginning after World War Two, the longest unbroken period of peace on the European continent for over a thousand years, civil wars aside. Friends tend not to fight friends. (This is, after all, the key impetus behind the creation of the EU in the first place!)
7. Freedom for UK citizens to travel, work, study and retire anywhere in the EU.
8. Freedom for EU citizens to travel, work, study and retire in the UK.
9. Scientific and academic collaboration, including access to grants, and knowledge pooling.
10. Participation in Horizon 2020 and successor programmes (Horizon 2020 is the world's largest multinational research programme, and has previously provided funding and assistance for over 10,000 collaborative research projects in the UK.)
11. Collaborative space exploration
12. Participation in the Galileo GPS satellite cluster, including its high quality military signal
13. Driving licenses valid all over the EU. No need for international driving permits.
14. Car insurance valid all over the EU.
15. Pet passports that make travelling with pets easy
16. Simplified system of fixed compensation for flight delays and cancellations thanks to EU Air Passenger Rights.
17. European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) giving access to healthcare in the the EU for free, or at reduced cost.
18. EU-wide mobile roaming (data, calls and texts) at home prices.
19. Portable streaming services, allowing access to existing Netflix and other streaming accounts all across the EU.
20. Erasmus student exchange programme involving more than 4,000 universities in 31 countries.
21. Enhanced consumer protection, including protections for cross-border shopping.
22. Simplified VAT reverse charge mechanism for those selling across the EU
23. Cross-border collaboration on tax issues, to try and hold huge firms like Amazon and Facebook to account effectively.
24. Training courses for the unemployed, funded by the European Social Fund
25. Disaster relief funding, such as the 60 million euro we received for flood relief in 2017.
26. Access to a court of last resort (ECJ) that can be accessed by citizens to hold the Government to account
27. Enhanced environmental protections.
28. REACH regulations and the EU Chemicals Agency, which combine to improve human, animal and environmental safety around chemicals.
29. Safer medicines due to the pan-EU testing regime.
30. Security cooperation, and sharing of crime and terrorist databases.
31. Participation in the European arrest warrant programme that allows for the speedy capture and extradition of wanted criminals sheltering in other EU countries.
32. Participation in the EURATOM programme to ensure the availability of vital medical isotopes, including very short half-life radiologicals.
33. Support for rural areas (long ignored by successive UK governments).
34. Regulations governing better food labelling, including from April 2020 the requirement to identify the country of origin of the primary ingredient in processed food, as well as the country of manufacture of the finished product.
35. EU funding to support the British film industry, theatre and music.
36. Free movement for musicians and their instruments, bands and their equipment, artists and their materials etc., enabling a flourishing European culture scene.
37. Participation in the European Capital of Culture programme, which has previously boosted cities such as Glasgow and Liverpool.
38. Service providers (e.g. freelance translators) can offer their services to clients all over the EU on the same basis as they can UK clients.
39. EU citizenship (it's a real thing, separate and additional to UK citizenship - look it up!)
40. No VAT or duty payable when goods from the EU are imported (great for online shopping as there are no unpleasant surprises in the form of extra charges).
41. Substantial venture capital funding, and the provision of startup loans.
42. Protection for minority languages, such as Welsh, enshrined in law.
43. Mutual recognition of academic and many professional qualifications.
44. Legal protection for foods of geographic origin, e.g. Melton Mowbray pork pies, ensuring that copycat products from other regions can't be passed off as the real thing.
45. The elimination of surcharges on credit and debit card transactions (EU law makes these illegal).
46. EU structural funding (e.g. the £2 billion Liverpool has received in the past) with a requirement for matched private funding to boost its effectiveness further.
47. Support for and encouragement of democracy in post-communist countries.
48. Guaranteed use of EU queues at ports and airports, including e-gates where available.
49. A bigger, stronger presence on the world stage when facing off economic giants such as the USA and China.
50. Products made or grown in the UK can be sold in 31 countries without type approval, customs duties, phytosanitary certificates or other costly red tape.
51. Strong, legally enforced food hygiene standards, including prohibitions on chlorinated chicken and GM crops.
52. Objective 1 funding for deprived areas and regions.
53. Financial passporting, enabling firms in the City of London to provide services to clients all over the EU.
54. Legally enforced 14 day cooling-off period on new timeshare agreements.
55. Access to university education in other EU countries at the same rates their home students would pay (many EU countries still offer free education).
56. Consular protection in countries outside of the EU from any EU embassy or consulate, if there's no UK embassy or consulate.
57. Secure baseline of worker protections, including restrictions on maximum hours worked, maternity leave etc. (We are free to improve on these in domestic UK law any time we like - as indeed we already do in many instances - because they're a floor, not a ceiling.)
58. Protection against discriminatory treatment when working in other EU countries, compared to local staff, thanks to the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights.
59. Minimum of 4 weeks of paid leave a year (introduced by the EU in 1993, taken up by the UK in 1998, and later extended to 28 days in 2009).
60. Right to land fish in EU ports (the EU buys more than half of all fish caught by UK fishermen).
61. Access to a willing seasonal workforce to pick our fruit and vegetables.
62. Ensure a vital supply of medicines (we import 37 million packs a month from the EU)
63. Minimum 2 year guarantee on all consumer products, no matter which channel you bought them through
64. A major say in the running of the EU, with MEPs representating the UK in the European Parliament, judges on the ECJ panel, etc.
65. A say in the setting of the EU budget and on determining the EU's priorities and focus.
66. More influence on environmental policy, since we would have a hand in shaping laws that governed 28 countries (pollution and carbon emissions don't stop neatly at borders).

Source: -
 
https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1269217359929249793
 
I'm still waiting for leavers to tell me just one thing that leaving the EU will make things better for people in the UK.  Not if's, possibilities, and may-bee's, something that definately WILL make things better.

[BigH]

We can have odd-shaped bananas.

[Not Now Kato]

We can have odd-shaped bananas.

We always could.

[selby]

  The markets say that the current finance package put in place will give the ECb enough wiggle room to keep buying the debt of the southern states until February next year The two questions it raises are how will the German constitutional court react to it? their original judgement was against the ECB normal Bond buying program not the stimulus package and don't forget  they were spending money away on Italian Government debt before the additional 1350 billion emergency stimulus.?
  2) what happens next February?
  Do you just think the ECB can continue buying all of the Italian Debt indefinitely  that has to be rolled over in the market?
  Do you think the Northern States will continue to fund it when their economies have had a severe hit?
  Do you think their populations will be happy to be taxed for the sake of other countries?
  Will they be able to without massive central printing of money and the drop in the value of the Euro and consequently their standard of living?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

Get off your high horse and deal with facts not flowery rhetoric.

You and your heroes voted with Garage and Johnson. Dress it up however you want, that is what you did.

And even worse, you enabled the Brexit that they wanted.

Whatever high minded left wing principles you had, it was stupid to vote Leave in 2016. Because you were not in a position to produce a left wing Leave outcome.

It was an irrational, emotional decision.

And you and Skinner have contributed to the shit show we are now in.

[DonnyOsmond]

Move on lads.

[Not Now Kato]

We don't need a Brexit Extension, we already have a deal ready to go.  Oh, wait....
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLhDfUvg-yI

[tommy toes]

I'll give you one positive for BREXIT...

Manufacturers of red tape will see their sales sky rocket.

[SydneyRover]

As johnson said Kato 'rooted'

[selby]

Katoe, there are two big reasons to leave in my post, I am trying to satisfy your questioning of reasons to leave.
  The answer to your list of goodies is at what cost? and the Question as life develops and countries, would the population have gained those improvements to general life without being a member of the EU? and would the EU have gained so many advantages without our considerable financial input over the years?
 

[SydneyRover]

It may help if you narrow down the options of which post you're currently referring to selby cos it's hard to fathom.

[selby]

It would be for you Syd, no surprise there then.

[SydneyRover]

None at all selby