Lee Bowyer

[phil old leake]

Made a statement about how unjust it would be if Charlton were relegated by PPG calculations

I tend to agree with him about this. How many times have teams put a late run together and survived or played their way into 6th place for a play off place

I can see some legal challenges coming. I think they’ve already been mentioned by clubs like Partick in Scotland. They’ve decided not to enough though they have been advised they could. Other clubs may not have the same opinion

[keyser_soze]

I thought there was a proposal that promotions would stand but relegation wouldn't, and the PL would just accept 3 more teams?

I guess there have been quite a few iterations of potential plans.

[drfchound]

Phil, it might seem unjust, I agree.
However if matches can’t be played for whatever reason I think that it is only right to find a way to otherwise complete, or finalise, the season and a league table.
Whichever way is decided upon it will feel unfair to some clubs and fans.
Others will be happy with the outcome.
That’s life.
To counter what Bowyer is saying, how many times have clubs gone into free fall and found themselves relegated?
Like we did under Ferguson not so long ago.
That could have happened to Charlton.
What if the teams around them had done well and Charlton hadn’t.
It works both ways.
With three quarters of the season gone, to me it seems right to find a way to wrap it up with an outcome, not abandon things and wipe the records away.
There will be winners and losers as a result of that.

[IDM]

Too many ifs and ands however.

Therefore the fairest solution, if the season cannot be played out, is to void the season.  Yes that would be a big waste and teams would miss out on promotions etc, but that wipes out any confusion over what ifs..

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

We got relegated because they couldn't maintain their pitch though.....

[selby]

  Whether the remaining games are played or  not  are the only important things to me. All the time that the situation like a large majority of football supporters I have fervently wanted the games to be played somehow, but it has become almost impossible.
  I am not that bothered if promotion and relegation  comes about by some new method PPG or positions as they stand when play was stopped because fortunately relegation does not concern us and we have not been good enough to gain promotion, although the way we were playing gave me hope of getting a playoff position.
  If I had to make the decision though because of the uncertainty of the results still to be played in a normal season, I would void the season with no promotion or relegation from the EFL.
  Whatever is decided there will be problems, some will benefit others will lose out but we will all just have to make the best of it and hope normality will resume sooner rather than later and we as a club can rebuild and look forward along with all the other clubs.

[phil old leake]

I agree with selby and IDM there is no fair solution to this if the games aren’t played. Voiding the season for me is the lesser of many evils

[drfchound]

I suppose the next question could be, will it be practical to even start next season.
Lower level clubs say they can’t afford to play behind closed doors because it denies them around 50% of their total income.
Also, (another what if) what if there is another spike in deaths (there will be).
That will probably bring about another lockdown and put us where we are now.

[selby]

  That is just my opinion as I see it POL, but I realise that whatever is decided now we will just have to draw a line under it and get on with it and I am happy to accept any outcome that can be agreed.
  I will however be very surprised if some of the clubs take that same attitude and will not legally try to obstruct any decision concerning promotion and relegation.
  The EFL with their decision concerning our game with Bolton, and their stance of recommending alternatives for the clubs to vote on show a consistent weakness and are not capable of leadership, or want to make decisive and binding decisions.
  While they are in place the EFL will gradually be undermined and slowly become out manoeuvred and irrelevant, the non league game is much better led and decisive in their implementation of their competitions rules and regulations.
  The fact that they had rules in place to overcome our problem with Bolton at local junior league level, and will not accept teams in their competitions at part time level that are in receivership on a date just before the start of their season highlights how poor the EFL governing body really is.
  That is one area where heads should roll and a body with some clout, and the will for it to impose the rules on clubs who transgress be installed for the good of the EFL as a whole.

[Filo]

Made a statement about how unjust it would be if Charlton were relegated by PPG calculations

I tend to agree with him about this. How many times have teams put a late run together and survived or played their way into 6th place for a play off place

I can see some legal challenges coming. I think they’ve already been mentioned by clubs like Partick in Scotland. They’ve decided not to enough though they have been advised they could. Other clubs may not have the same opinion

It’s a shame he didn’t voice how unjust it was regarding where the penalties were taken in the play off game at their place

[idler]

Too much of the season was played for me to just write it off. After three quarters of the season most teams will be somewhere near where they would expect to finish. Why should teams lose all that they have worked for? A points per game with allowances for home and away games is a fair enough system for me.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Unfair or unlucky? Many a club have either triumphed or succumbed at the very last moment, as we know from both ends of the spectrum.

Once the season is declared over one way or another, it's not the end of it. There are still going to be casualties and as I said way back, when the true scale of this thing emerged, we'll be thankful once football can resume in front of crowds and be lucky if we come out of it relatively unscathed.

[RoversAlias]

Luck has nothing to do with it. It would be ridiculous to just void the whole thing when we are quite close to the end point.

[Padge_DRFC]

Charlton and Barnsley coming down is 2 good away days. Luton is just a shit hole

[selby]

 And Charlton isn't ?

[IDM]

Luck has nothing to do with it. It would be ridiculous to just void the whole thing when we are quite close to the end point.

But we are not so close to the end point that (Liverpool aside) many of the promotion and relegation places would have changed if the games could be played out.

No fair model can include significant form changes, bad refereeing decisions, luck, injuries etc.

Had previous seasons ended at a similar point, teams like Blackpool wouldn’t have scraped into the championship play offs, Doncaster might not have gone down in 2014 etc.

Just my opinion of course, but there are far far too many variables to model a finish to the season.

[drfchound]

Whichever way is pans out there will be people who feel hard done by and people who will be elated.

[phil old leake]

The big challenge for me will come from the championship. Missing out on a potentially very lucrative promotion to the premiership will be devastating.   Unlike the premiership it’s not cut and dry by a long way

[NickDRFC]

And Charlton isn't ?

Charlton’s a great away day, plenty of decent pubs close by.

[NewDonny]

And Charlton isn't ?

Compared to Luton, Charlton's Valley Stadium is a Palace.

Luton along with Gillingham, AFC Wimbledon, Fleetwood & Wycombe Wanderers grounds are up there as the worst grounds I have ever been to and Luton ranks the worst of the lot.

[NewDonny]

Luck has nothing to do with it. It would be ridiculous to just void the whole thing when we are quite close to the end point.

But we are not so close to the end point that (Liverpool aside) many of the promotion and relegation places would have changed if the games could be played out.

No fair model can include significant form changes, bad refereeing decisions, luck, injuries etc.

Had previous seasons ended at a similar point, teams like Blackpool wouldn’t have scraped into the championship play offs, Doncaster might not have gone down in 2014 etc.

Just my opinion of course, but there are far far too many variables to model a finish to the season.

We've played between 34 - 36 out of a total of 44 games, depending on which team you look at in League One. Thats circa 80% of the seasons games complete which in anyones book is a season coming to an end.

[IDM]

Alternatively you could say there are 8-10 games left meaning 24-30 points to play for..

What’s the points gap between first and third, second and fifth?  The bottom 7-8.?

Far far less than 24 points..  there is/was plenty to play for, and the fact that teams have played 30-odd games doesn’t mean the remaining 8-10 will follow to form, otherwise we would stop going to games every year in March..

[idler]

At the end of the day only one team would probably vastly exceed expectations. By the same token probably only one Orr two teams would go on such a bad run to unexpectedly be relegated.
It would be interesting to know how after 35 games the previous few seasons would have panned out if PPG were used for the remaining games.

[NewDonny]

Alternatively you could say there are 8-10 games left meaning 24-30 points to play for..

What’s the points gap between first and third, second and fifth?  The bottom 7-8.?

Far far less than 24 points..  there is/was plenty to play for, and the fact that teams have played 30-odd games doesn’t mean the remaining 8-10 will follow to form, otherwise we would stop going to games every year in March..

...............and it doest mean they won't play to form either so its a non argument I am afraid.

It started out as a 46 game season, Bury were then dropped from the league leaving at as a 44 game season of which 34-36 games have been completed. In the event that a decision is reached, which I strongly suspect it will be that Coventry & Rotherham go up and the next 4 sides enter the play offs then thats will be based on current standings after 34-36 games and thats it, end of story. Other sports like cricket, Formula 1 etc have adopted similar rulings so why shouldn't football?

[IDM]

“ and it doest mean they won't play to form either so its a non argument I am afraid.”

Eh.?  Of course it is not a non argument.!  It’s an opinion as valid as yours..

Play offs.?  what play offs.?  That is a non argument.!

[bedale rover]

And Charlton isn't ?

Compared to Luton, Charlton's Valley Stadium is a Palace.

Luton along with Gillingham, AFC Wimbledon, Fleetwood & Wycombe Wanderers grounds are up there as the worst grounds I have ever been to and Luton ranks the worst of the lot.

There's only about 4 pubs in Luton town centre

It's a ****hole

[BillyStubbsTears]

At the end of the day only one team would probably vastly exceed expectations. By the same token probably only one Orr two teams would go on such a bad run to unexpectedly be relegated.
It would be interesting to know how after 35 games the previous few seasons would have panned out if PPG were used for the remaining games.

I've just had a very quick look at L1 for the past two seasons.

Last year, the top 2 after 35-36 games on H/A-weighted PPG were the top 2 at the end of the season. And same with the four sides in the play-off positions.

2017-18 was almost the same. Just the final play-off position was a tough one - Peterborough, Plymouth and Charlton were all on target to get 69 points on weighted PPG, with Plymouth just ahead by decimal places, Peterborough 7th and Charlton 8th. As it turned out, Charlton clinched the 6th spot, with Plymouth 7th and Peterborough 9th.

So based on the last two seasons, doing weighted PPG would get the top two right. Problem comes if the EFL decide to promote the third placed team.

In 2017/18, weighted PPG suggested Shrewsbury, and they did finish 3rd.

But in 2018/19. weighted PPG had Sunderland in 3rd, 7 points ahead of 4th. As it panned out, the collapsed and finished fifth, with Charlton getting 3rd.

Conclusion: Weighted PPG isn't bad but it looks to be far from perfect and I anticipate some serious threats of legal action if that's how it goes. In our division in particular, it looks like a terrible way of deciding things, given how tight everything is. You might as well draw lots between the sides in positions 3-8 for the third promotion spot.

[NewDonny]

“ and it doest mean they won't play to form either so its a non argument I am afraid.”

Eh.?  Of course it is not a non argument.!  It’s an opinion as valid as yours..

Play offs.?  what play offs.?  That is a non argument.!

Play offs.?  what play offs.?  That is a non argument.!

Wait and see!

[idler]

At the end of the day only one team would probably vastly exceed expectations. By the same token probably only one Orr two teams would go on such a bad run to unexpectedly be relegated.
It would be interesting to know how after 35 games the previous few seasons would have panned out if PPG were used for the remaining games.

I've just had a very quick look at L1 for the past two seasons.

Last year, the top 2 after 35-36 games on H/A-weighted PPG were the top 2 at the end of the season. And same with the four sides in the play-off positions.

2017-18 was almost the same. Just the final play-off position was a tough one - Peterborough, Plymouth and Charlton were all on target to get 69 points on weighted PPG, with Plymouth just ahead by decimal places, Peterborough 7th and Charlton 8th. As it turned out, Charlton clinched the 6th spot, with Plymouth 7th and Peterborough 9th.

So based on the last two seasons, doing weighted PPG would get the top two right. Problem comes if the EFL decide to promote the third placed team.

In 2017/18, weighted PPG suggested Shrewsbury, and they did finish 3rd.

But in 2018/19. weighted PPG had Sunderland in 3rd, 7 points ahead of 4th. As it panned out, the collapsed and finished fifth, with Charlton getting 3rd.

Conclusion: Weighted PPG isn't bad but it looks to be far from perfect and I anticipate some serious threats of legal action if that's how it goes. In our division in particular, it looks like a terrible way of deciding things, given how tight everything is. You might as well draw lots between the sides in positions 3-8 for the third promotion spot.

I thought that you or Dutch might have a dabble at that BST. I'm not lazy, I just don't possess the skills that you,Dutch and one or two more have.
It seems that whichever way you go somebody will be disappointed. Maybe the least controversial would be a weighted PPG and a play off between teams 3-7 with the agreement that there are no later complaints.
That just might upset the fewest number of clubs. It's not perfect but would bring it to a close and reward the teams that have done well.

[IDM]

“ and it doest mean they won't play to form either so its a non argument I am afraid.”

Eh.?  Of course it is not a non argument.!  It’s an opinion as valid as yours..

Play offs.?  what play offs.?  That is a non argument.!

Play offs.?  what play offs.?  That is a non argument.!

Wait and see!

Explain please.?