Should we have let our top scorer go ?

[graingrover]

We seem to have learned from our history lol : ...

[BobG]

And sadly, I see the poisonous name H Bates up there too. He is second only to the infamous Firestarter in the damage he wrought at BV. Every time he clapped eyes on the little squirt, my old Dad almost had apoplexy.

Cheers

BobG

[One_Matty_Lucas]

And sadly, I see the poisonous name H Bates up there too. He is second only to the infamous Firestarter in the damage he wrought at BV. Every time he clapped eyes on the little squirt, my old Dad almost had apoplexy.

Cheers

BobG

Hi BobG,

For the younger generation, is there anything to read about Mr Bates? Would be interested to read up on him.

Thanks

[BobG]

I don't know tbh Matty. I'm no expert on Hubert Bates, but what I do know, mostly from my Dad, is that he was on the Board for decades, he was Chairman for a very long time, that he engineered the removal of Peter Doherty, I think on religious grounds. I can't remember if it was Bates who was Catholic or, more likely, Doherty, but the story has always been that Bates didn't like the Irish Catholics.

Bates presided over the decline from Division 2 to Division 4.  He was, and I do remember this, a little squirt of a grey, grey, grey man. He looked like a sort of much less attractive version  of Captain Mainwaring. Stuffy. Looking down his nose. Up himself. My Dad loathed him.

That's about all I know sadly Matty. If anyone knows more, or better, I'd be chuffed to read it.

Cheers

BobG

[One_Matty_Lucas]

Thanks Bob, appreciate it.

 

[bally1950]

And if anyone remembers "Harrisons Sports" on East Laithe Gate now a beer off, that belonged to him, his staff did not like him but a job is a job, I bought some rugby boots from there when I was at St. Peters.

Yes my dad too would have liked to have run his lorry over Bates. Nearly in the first Div at one point under PD, Bates disassembled the team to relegation fodder for years to follow. Lots of Irish Catholics in the team around that time

[The Red Baron]

Peter Doherty was a Catholic, Bob. When he left the then chairman, club surgeon (who was also a director) and secretary resigned. Thereafter Bates was the most powerful man in the boardroom.

Bates was only chairman for a short time, but the chairman (Jack Garnham) was very much in Bates's camp. The board was accused of meddling in team affairs by two managers after their departure (Norman Curtis and Bill Leivers). The situation only changed for a short time when Frank Wilson became chairman. But Wilson was eventually pushed out.

[BobG]

Thank you John. I always did wonder why Frank Wilson left when he seemed to be so successful. I've not heard this explanation of it before so thanks.  It explains why Bill Leivers went too - another unexplained departure that I was too young to understood at the time and never enquired about after.

Yet more reasons to loath that horrible little man. Effectively, you could argue a convincing case that he was the direct reason why we spent 50 years in the 4th division with only the odd foray into the third. With Peter Doherty we were an established 2nd div side. Playing an average of one league higher than we ended up doing for 50 years would have been eminently possible.

BobG

[graingrover]

Yes there was a big Irish contingency brought in by Peter Doherty .. I remember having seen , Harry Gregg, Eddie McMorran , Len Graham all Northern Irish Internationals and then Paddy Gavin and  Jim Kilkenny  .
 
         Did the sort's shop belong to Bates or to Ray Harrison ?

 Bob G .. I was too young to 'know' Bates but even so I recall how very unpopular he was and when he drove out Doherty our best players left one quickly on the heels of the other and the club plummeted .

  footnote ... In the same programme as above there is a note of thanks to Messrs Chas J Fox Piano Co for the LOAN of the records played today' ...

[neil grainger]

And if anyone remembers "Harrisons Sports" on East Laithe Gate now a beer off, that belonged to him,

Wasn't that Ray Harrison's shop?

[BigH]

Peter Doherty was a Catholic, Bob. When he left the then chairman, club surgeon (who was also a director) and secretary resigned. Thereafter Bates was the most powerful man in the boardroom.

Bates was only chairman for a short time, but the chairman (Jack Garnham) was very much in Bates's camp. The board was accused of meddling in team affairs by two managers after their departure (Norman Curtis and Bill Leivers). The situation only changed for a short time when Frank Wilson became chairman. But Wilson was eventually pushed out.

Aye, it was always said to me that Garnham and Bates were partners in crime.

[idler]

And if anyone remembers "Harrisons Sports" on East Laithe Gate now a beer off, that belonged to him,

Wasn't that Ray Harrison's shop?

Bates either owned it or had the biggest stake in it.

[hoolahoop]

I seem to remember the shop when exactly did it disappear ?

I also remember hearing about Bates when I first started going. The descriptions above seem to fit exactly what the older supporters thought of him.
We certainly haven't been blessed with the best running our club over the years that's for sure

Bob's comments about being a yo-yo club at both 1st and 2nd tier weren't far from the truth.
Post WW2 we  had very healthy crowds and excellent players. If only Doherty had received that extra support from the Board and from the town then hhings could have been so very different.

[Sad-Rovers]

It's certainly interesting to see some people slating Bates and the board for running the club in a sustainable manner and wondering where we'd be had they found that little more investment.

[Bentley Bullet]

It's certainly interesting to see some people slating Bates and the board for running the club in a sustainable manner and wondering where we'd be had they found that little more investment.

I've said the very same thing a while ago, and still haven't had an acceptable response.

[idler]

It's certainly interesting to see some people slating Bates and the board for running the club in a sustainable manner and wondering where we'd be had they found that little more investment.

If you had been around in the mid to late sixties you would have wondered where the gate money was going.
65/66 season's gates were very good and we were booming. Investment and foresight then and we could have followed Coventr'ys example.
John Nicholson's death, Alick out for three months and selling Laurie Sheffield killed us. Bates cashed in at the expense of the fans.
It wasn't about sustainability it was about greed.

[BillyStubbsTears]

It's certainly interesting to see some people slating Bates and the board for running the club in a sustainable manner and wondering where we'd be had they found that little more investment.

It WOULD have been interesting if anyone had actually said that.

[ravenrover]

Not having a sly dig at some of our current posters and the current board by any chance Sad?

[The Red Baron]

It's certainly interesting to see some people slating Bates and the board for running the club in a sustainable manner and wondering where we'd be had they found that little more investment.

He didn't run it in a sustainable manner, though. The business model of football clubs was very different in the 60s. Most of the income came from gate receipts.

As idler says, Rovers' gates were good in comparison to other comparable clubs, and as the 1965-66 season showed, people in Doncaster would still support a winning team.

Bates and Garnham were also noted for meddling in football matters. Two managers complained of interference after leaving the club.

To compare Bates to the present board is deeply insulting to them. You may as well compare them to Richardson!

[Glyn_Wigley]

This is the first time I've ever seen religious bigotry described as a sustainable business model.

[Bentley Bullet]

Whether Bates' period in control involved greed and/or religious bigotry or not isn't the point of the argument. The point is that, even if it was in pretence, his reason for our fall back down the leagues was down to low investment in order to attain a sustainable business model.

The present board, although considered genuine in their reasons for sustainability, might find the club suffering a similar fate as a consequence.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

If you define it your way, EVERY business model is what you define as "sustainable". Your definition is effectively that the owner pays in, or takes out as much as they wish to.

[The Red Baron]

Lack of investment? It was always suspected that Bates took money OUT of the club!

You're comparing chalk and cheese here, BB.

[Bentley Bullet]

TRB

I'm not comparing their personalities at all.

[Sad-Rovers]

To compare Bates to the present board is deeply insulting to them. You may as well compare them to Richardson!

I haven't made any comparisons.

If you take the personalities out of the equation it becomes a bit more interesting.

If our owners had invested more in the mid sixties we may have tasted the top flight. They didn't and we slumped and attendances dropped off.

If our owners had invested more in the mid two thousands we may have tasted the top flight. They didn't and we've slumped (although not as far) and attendances have dropped off.

I suppose it could be argued that we'd have made it off the back of our own finances in the 60s, fair enough, but no club has made the top flight in the past 20 years without external investment.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sad

You said that Bates ran the club in a sustainable manner and implicitly compared that to the current situation. That was what riled a few folk.

[Bentley Bullet]

The way i look at it is thus.

It's alright having a mandate of sustainability, but the problem lays when it's unsure at what level the sustainability will work.

Now I might be wrong (for once) but I reckon that our current sustainability level is about where we actually are in mid league one. 

Of course, our sustainability level could rise with a bit more investment.

[idler]

Maybe more investment will be available as DF shows that he is capable of building a good squad. They might trust him more than PD to spend wisely.

[silent majority]

The two eras are completely different. Rule 34 of the FA handbook forbid any taking of profit or paying dividends to shareholders until that was changed in the late 1990's. Clubs were essentially that; clubs that were to all intents and purposes non-profit organisations. Sustainability wasn't so much an ambition more a fact of life.

[silent majority]

The way i look at it is thus.

It's alright having a mandate of sustainability, but the problem lays when it's unsure at what level the sustainability will work.

Now I might be wrong (for once) but I reckon that our current sustainability level is about where we actually are in mid league one. 

Of course, our sustainability level could rise with a bit more investment.

Mid table league one is the real problem here. It's the one league where sustainability is very difficult to achieve, you don't get the revenues of the Championship, nor can you get away with spending very little on wages as you would in Lg2. It has to be one or the other, up or down?