Nice touch from Oldham fans today

[Albert Trousers]

Sang "Stand up for the 56" In reference to the Bradford Fire tragedy in the mid 80's v Lincoln. Would be nice if the South stand did something similar next week as I'm sure many of the Bradford fans at next weeks game will have friends/relatives affected.

[StocktonRover]

No.......

we've never done it before in almost 30 years so why do it now.

[Donnywolf]

It would certainly "balance" out some of the songs we used to sing close to Valley Parade in the early 60's

I dare not even allude in any way what ANY of the songs were as they would still be construed as "offensive"

[Donnywolf]

No.......

we've never done it before in almost 30 years so why do it now.

I agree ... its over just leave it !

[hoolahoop]

Why because, unlike Hillsborough, these unfortunates rarely get spoken about.

[bpoolrover]

Different circumstances thou hoola

[bally1950]

NOT different circumstances at all. 96 or 56 football fans went to watch a game where a bag of wind got kicked around and circumstances beyond their control meant that those poor souls never went home alive. Same thing in my book.

Looking for someone to blame at Hillsboro then look for the person or persons that started the fire.

[idler]

The fire was an accident started by a cigarette falling through the boards and igniting litter below.
A pc was supposedly told there was a fire started  but did nothing. The fire gradually took hold and the bitumen on the roof caught and the rest is history. The worst part was a lot of those killed made their way to the back of the stand but the exit door there was locked leaving them no escape.

[bally1950]

Yes, there was a cigarette possibly dropped through the stand to below. A PC was supposedly told yep blah blah. Unless you know what happened it is pure speculation. It does not bring those poor souls back. I also know a Policeman who was on duty in that stand area and was in and out trying to rescue people and getting them to safety. Think about the people both dying and trying to help. Both at Valley Parade and Hillsboro.

For a bag of wind

[Donnyrovers]

Sang "Stand up for the 56" In reference to the Bradford Fire tragedy in the mid 80's v Lincoln. Would be nice if the South stand did something similar next week as I'm sure many of the Bradford fans at next weeks game will have friends/relatives affected.

No. We shouldn't sing about it next week it is a big game need to get behind the team not sing for them, It was a disaster but we shouldn't sing about it.

[bobjimwilly]

just hope those nutters who were at Bradford back in November think twice before singing "is there a fire alarm" if the Bradford fans start leaving before the final whistle...

 

[i_ateallthepies]

Agree bjw, but we can still hope the Bradford fans are leaving before the final whistle.

[hoolahoop]

Why because, unlike Hillsborough, these unfortunates rarely get spoken about. Or for that matter were killed whilst supporting a big club from the North West. Mistakes were made at both tragic events but no- one yes no-one did anything deliberately  . "old" stand v dangerous stand. Heroes at both, mistakes made at both I.e in checking both stadia were still fit for purpose ? Still can't see comparisons or reasons to be compassionate well I can.......the folk at Bradford were generally forgotten about by those in footy and by the public at large. For me there are few differences except the nasal scouse accents can be heard so much louder than the Wessies who chose to bury their dead and move on with life.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hoola

"Moving on" only happens when you've got closure. You can't have closure when there ha been a 25 year campaign to cover up criminal behaviour.

THAT is the issue at Hillsborough. It's big. It's important. Please don't belittle that.

[NickDRFC]

Well said. Who gives a damn whether their complaints are in a "nasal scores accent", they are genuine and deserve to be heard.

[NickDRFC]

That should say nasal scouse accent...

[bally1950]

BST - You can prove a Cover Up can you - In simple terms. Why was there a build up of Liverpool fans at the gates at the time of the kick off, where had they been, there were no reported hold ups. The train that arrived at Wadsley Bridge contained far fewer than the previous year.

Where had they been, do you know the answer, and also the fact that many until this Inquest have never admitted that they got into the game without a ticket.

Point the finger at the Police. Just like the Bradford Fire. Oh and do not forget the Ibrox Steps disaster. All the Police's fault. You may read too much. I think as you are intent in keeping this subject open until there is closure, perhaps you should consider the fault of The F.A. along with SWFC and also Sheffield City Council. But do not forget successive governments who have refused the families their chance to find out what happened. Not the Police I may add.

Oh and on the subject I will throw in the Heyshell Stadium disaster. When certain fans refused to go and give evidence or be questioned. What about the families there. 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bally

Calm down. If you're REALLY interested in what I think, you could read the very many posts I've posted on topic, where I have time and again stated that Hillsborough was the result of failings on all sides. Fans[1], Police, Council, Club, Safety Engineers. (And I WAS very closely involved professionally, to my deep regret - I know only too well the responsibilities that the club's engineers bear for the disaster).

But the fact remains that there is prima facie evidence of a criminal conspiracy by the police in the way that the inquiries were handled. Just like there is evidence that the same force did something very similar after Orgreave. If my kid had died and there was a strong suggestion that the police and other authorities had conspired to prevent the truth of what happened from coming out, I would campaign until my last breath to hold those responsible for the conspiracy to account.

Are you suggesting that the police should be left to do what the hell they want?

By the way, I haven't the first idea why you suggest that I'm pointing a finger at the police for Bradford or Ibrox.

[1] That's ALL of us fans who had ever deliberately gone out of control and contributed to the culture that saw us as a public order problem, rather than humans.

[bally1950]

Billy.

Yes me too too close for comfort professionally. I was generalising in the issue of the Police, until you actually know that there was a conspiracy it is dangerous to presume. As per Orgreave, yes one singular phrase in arresting officers statements and now we have "Unlawful Arrests"? No the arrests were not unlawful they were correct. Again humans - flying pickets - public disorder. Unreasonable behaviour of some who tried to stop others from going about their work, and were subjected to intimidation and fear. I assure you I do know what I am on about. I do not doubt that you have spoken previously about the failings at Hillsboro, but you will see that I have not been a member that long and may well not have read previous posts.
As per Orgreave also, the first batch of court appearances that were processed and that one point was discussed and disproved, caused the rest of the cases to be dropped, you may know that maybe. I understand that a Police Officer from the Met, may not be too aware of the local geography and that one point was the issue, not a conspiracy, it was a mistake.  We can all claim conspiracy when it suits and as for a   Cover up. Again "Why did all the fans come late, where had they been" One man has accepted the total blame for what happened, so let us think "What had been the outcome if the gates had been left locked shut"?? answer is deaths at those very same gates. Yes I too would go to the ends of the world to find why my kid died, all of us would BUT some people should examine their own self. The fans in the ground up to the kick off did nothing wrong, but the ones that forced the issue and now look for a scapegoat to blame for their very own actions. This has gone on a long time and I am aware of interviews only this week that are really scraping the barrels to point the finger of blame, Yes I too am in the profession of knowing what is happening.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bally

A couple of observations.

1) You haven't got your facts right on the "conspiracy" thing at a Orgreave. There are two key issues that show a prima facie case of a very serious conspiracy.
a) The key reason that the original trials collapsed was due to the defence showing that there were blatant lies in police evidence. In particular, there were police statements claiming to have seen things happening on the picket line that happened when the officers concerned were still in central Sheffield waiting to be bussed to Orgreave.

2) There were several dozen police statements using IDENTICAL phrases all of which made the case that the violence was started by the picketers. Some officers have claimed that these phrases were dictated to them by an unknown senior officer.

As I say, there is prima facie evidence of perjury and conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. REGARDLESS of what else happened, those are very serious issues (especially as the perjury issue related to court cases where the defendants potentially faced life imprisonment) and it is inconceivable that they should not be investigated.

Now, Hillsborough.

I agree that anyone who arrived late shares part of the blame. As do the club's engineers that I worked for. And the incompetent council.

NONE of that means that the very strong evidence of a conspiracy to cover up police mistakes should be ignored.

[bpoolrover]

Must agree bst,the fans who were pushing against the gates must share some of the blame but that does not excuse the huge cover up that followed

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bpool

As I say. Every single one of us who ever behaved like that (hands up here) deserves some share of the blame.

What happened at Hillsborough could easily have happened to us at Goodison Park 4 years before if the other ingredients (incompetent policing and engineering) had also been present.

[bally1950]

Billy

Your para number two is correct. But whether the Police were still waiting to be bussed, I would rather not comment on because I do not know, but there it is. If you were a serving Police Officer in the 70's and up until after the Disaster at Hillsboro you would be aware of what was admissible and accepted by the courts. I did not agree at the time nor did I for the rest of my service, so please do not tar us all with the same brush. Because I have been on the receiving end of those bricks.

The problem is and will also be that the people who did what, including Football fans - Police - Miners well many are no longer with us sadly and it is easy to point the finger at them as they cannot answer for themselves, we can all summarise and we can all suggest what happened in all aspects of civil disorder and whilst television cameras are present people do certain things, I too was on duty during Steel strike in many locations including the "Vulcan Road" St Valentine's Day Massacre as it was dubbed by the NUM Members that swelled the numbers. It is easy to film a Policeman doing one thing wrong and ignoring what others are doing as well.

In Hind Sight there are many people who try to explain their own mistakes there are some who try to hide them. You state prima facie evidence of perjury, conspiracy and  pervert the cause of justice. I disagree, what you have is evidence of possible offences. I agree that the cases collapsed because of the defence showing that there were blatant lies told by the Police. BUT I have caught, arrested and proved that a person has committed an offence and come across a defence solicitor who pulled my evidence apart just enough to put doubt in the judges mind and "Not Guilty". But the person had committed the crime in the first place, so not everything is clean when it comes out of the wash.

As for Hillsboro, we are a great many years away from that disaster being sorted. As you are aware this is the Inquest, there are separate Criminal Cases to yet be discussed and you are aware of course that there are two enquiries. I surmise this with who you actually worked for and may have given evidence already. The Coroner is now dealing with the Criminal Element, which was not his brief. Perhaps just perhaps well we wait to see. One thing, those 96 Poor Souls cannot be brought back sadly

[bally1950]

Billy

I have noted your comment to bpoolrover, I agree totally and as I too was there. I was walking along the road, there were about six teenagers in front of us (Two off duty Police) going to watch the game, the kids were doing no wrong but an overzealous van of Policemen  pulled up and the sergeant started to wade into them verbally. We interfered and suggested that the kids were left alone they were doing nothing wrong. (Pulling our warrant cards from our pockets) the van and all in it sped off. So yes Everton could have been so very different.  I understand that in the ground someone started singling Andy Gray out as a w**nker .

 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bally

I said "prima facie" evidence. That is unquestionable in the case of Orgreave. There is prima facie evidence that lies were told in official statements and that officers either colluded or were instructed to write particular phrases to tell a very particular account of what happened.

I'm not saying that those things DID happen. I'm saying there is prima facie evidence. If I had been involved in a high-profile case and there was that amount of prima facie evidence that I was attempting to pervert the course of justice, I would expect to have been investigated and probably had proceedings brought against me decades ago.

And I'll say again. It doesn't matter what else happened on the day. If other people committed crimes, they too should have been prosecuted. None of that excuses crimes by the police.

[bally1950]

I agree totally with your last statement. You would never find me or many others suggesting that it was alright to do it. I personally know two that tried. The job was safe enough but they expanded it for what ever stupid reason. Result offender convicted on the  true evidence, two policemen to prison for lying.. You will never get me saying there can be an excuse because someone is in the Police.