Brexit Negotiations

[hoolahoop]

IMO to many people would rather see BREXIT fail than the UK succeed.

One liners from Farage no longer cut it in the face of the huge difficulties we find ourselves in .

[BillyStubbsTears]

IMO to many people would rather see BREXIT fail than the UK succeed.

I don’t know who these “many people” are mate but I’m not one.

In or out of Europe, I want to see us as a successful, welcoming, open, tolerant country.

I have just never seen anything remotely suggesting that we will be that country outside Europe.

[SydneyRover]

IMO to many people would rather see BREXIT fail than the UK succeed.

I don’t know who these “many people” are mate but I’m not one.

In or out of Europe, I want to see us as a successful, welcoming, open, tolerant country.

I have just never seen anything remotely suggesting that we will be that country outside Europe.

I second that.

[albie]

Brexiteers,

What I don't get is why you are not in a rage about being misled?

In any other walk of life, folk would be upset about the mis-selling, the £350m for the NHS claim.
Not only are Gove and Johnson NOT in jail for fraud, and conspiracy to undermine the democratic process, but they are rewarded with seats in the Cabinet.

Now if you had bought a consumer item on the basis of a false claim, you would expect your money back. Trading standards would step in and bring the wrong uns to book.

It appears that voters have no recourse to political misinformation, so "fake news" is OK as long as it deals in the deceit of ideas.

That can't be right, can it, Brexiteers?

[MachoMadness]

IMO to many people would rather see BREXIT fail than the UK succeed.

I don’t know who these “many people” are mate but I’m not one.

In or out of Europe, I want to see us as a successful, welcoming, open, tolerant country.

I have just never seen anything remotely suggesting that we will be that country outside Europe.

To be completely fair to him, I did post an opinion poll on some thread or other that showed 1 in 5 Remain voters would be happy for Brexit to fail if it taught Leavers a lesson. It was the same poll that showed over half of pensioners who voted Leave would be happy for a family member to lose a job if it meant delivering Brexit.

I agree though that no rational thinking person wants Brexit to fail, but there just doesn't seem to be another possible outcome at the moment. I do not understand the Leavers who refuse to even entertain the thought they might have been lied to, that what they were promised just wasn't possible. In a hundred years or so this is going to make for some interesting A Level History essays.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Brexiteers,

What I don't get is why you are not in a rage about being misled?

In any other walk of life, folk would be upset about the mis-selling, the £350m for the NHS claim.
Not only are Gove and Johnson NOT in jail for fraud, and conspiracy to undermine the democratic process, but they are rewarded with seats in the Cabinet.

Now if you had bought a consumer item on the basis of a false claim, you would expect your money back. Trading standards would step in and bring the wrong uns to book.

It appears that voters have no recourse to political misinformation, so "fake news" is OK as long as it deals in the deceit of ideas.

That can't be right, can it, Brexiteers?

The impression I got at the time of the referendum is that they were happy to have lies spread because it got them the result they wanted and that everybody else should 'get over it'.

[hoolahoop]

Brexiteers,

What I don't get is why you are not in a rage about being misled?

In any other walk of life, folk would be upset about the mis-selling, the £350m for the NHS claim.
Not only are Gove and Johnson NOT in jail for fraud, and conspiracy to undermine the democratic process, but they are rewarded with seats in the Cabinet.

Now if you had bought a consumer item on the basis of a false claim, you would expect your money back. Trading standards would step in and bring the wrong uns to book.

It appears that voters have no recourse to political misinformation, so "fake news" is OK as long as it deals in the deceit of ideas.

That can't be right, can it, Brexiteers?

The impression I got at the time of the referendum is that they were happy to have lies spread because it got them the result they wanted and that everybody else should 'get over it'.

Hmm that's about the size of it , along the lines of  " Remoaners time to suck it up ."

Should read more like " Leavers over to you time  to F**k it up ." 

[Glyn_Wigley]

Can someone remind me, what was it that the Brexiters were telling us about how countries would be falling over themselves to have trade deals with a post-EU Britain..?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42121442

[BillyStubbsTears]

I wonder if the Leave voters realise just how little thought was given to the practical details of things like trade negotiations.

The likes of Johnson and Gove are famously light on attention to detail. They were very good at patronisingly putting down anyone who pointed out that it took over a decade for Switzerland to reach a trade deal with the EU. They did what they always do - encouraged Leave supporters to not think too hard about it and just assume that all would be fine because...we’ll because we’re British and we are special.

I’m slowly coming to the conclusion that I want one of those two Kitsons to become PM. They have created this disaster. They need to be made to own it and be associated with it forever.

[Not Now Kato]

IMO to many people would rather see BREXIT fail than the UK succeed.

I don't think many, if any, people want to see BREXIT fail.  However, many of us can already see it failing.
 
I learned a new word today, BREALITY.  Something that people in the UK will have to come to terms with in time.
 

[BillyStubbsTears]

By the way. Those forecasts about the effect that Brexit will have on the economy. Unfortunately, there’s every reason to think that they will actually be overly optimistic. They are based on an assumption that productivity, which has flatlined now for a decade, will suddenly bounce back to the kind of growth that was standard between the 50s and the Great Financial Crash

Trouble is, the OBR has been predicting this productivity improvement continuously for 7 years and its never happened.

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/the-obr-productivity-and-policy-failures.html?m=1

Put simply, if productivity doesn’t improve, we don’t get richer, except by having to work longer hours. And the first graph in that article shows what a catastrophic effect the two great policy disasters of the last decade have had.

Productivity was rising after the crash, until it was throttled off by the boneheaded idiocy of Austerity from 2010. And then, when it looked like we’d finally started, by 2015-16 to put the effect of that f**king stupidity behind us, we vote to leave the EU and productivity stagnates again because no f**ked is investing anything in Britain.

The numbers are staggering. If productivity had continued to rise at the 2010 rate (which it had done every decade before, since the War) we’d have made an extra £20,000 over the past 7 years for every single man, woman and child in the country. Or, looking at it another way, we could be as wealthy as we are today, whilst having 3 day weekends.

It truly defies belief how stupid we have been to consistently vote to make ourselves, our kids and our grandkids poorer.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I wonder if the Leave voters realise just how little thought was given to the practical details of things like trade negotiations.

The likes of Johnson and Gove are famously light on attention to detail. They were very good at patronisingly putting down anyone who pointed out that it took over a decade for Switzerland to reach a trade deal with the EU. They did what they always do - encouraged Leave supporters to not think too hard about it and just assume that all would be fine because...we’ll because we’re British and we are special.

I’m slowly coming to the conclusion that I want one of those two Kitsons to become PM. They have created this disaster. They need to be made to own it and be associated with it forever.

But even they aren't stupid enough to make a move until the Brexit disaster - not to mention the exit deal - has been irrevocably pinned onto Theresa May and they can then make a play for PM so their hands won't be tainted with it. As far as I can see it's this that's keeping May in her job, nothing else.

[albie]

I don't know if this forecast will prove accurate, but it does look like the real costs to public services like the NHS have been seriously underplayed;
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-nhs-boris-johnson-philip-hammond-budget-open-britain-chancellor-a8075691.html

Heidi Alexander thinks Boris should apologise..... Like that is good enough!

No-one seems to think that the corruption of democracy is a serious matter.
Where is this all going?

[keith79]

Britex everyone's an expert. But no one knows anything.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Keith

Aye. Like those economists who said 18 months ago that Brexit would lead to a a reduction in investment, a drop in the pound and slower economic growth.

They know nothing do they?

[keith79]

Long term no

[RedJ]

And you do, I take it, based on blind faith?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Britex everyone's an expert. But no one knows anything.

But you're an expert on other people not knowing anying are you?

[hoolahoop]

Long term no

OK Keith back up your pipedream or should I say wet dream with something more concrete because you aren't arguing against Osborne's " supposedly " nonsensical Project Fear here.

You are burying your head in the sand when faced with Project Reality. Come on educate us ......

[MachoMadness]

Seems like the most coherent arguments for Brexit now are coming from Yargo, and even he seems to have given up!

[SydneyRover]

What would it take for brexiters to accept that they were mugged used and abused for political gain by a small number of people that want to take Britain back in time. Still waiting for any good news about brexit, don't be shy, don't hold back.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/25/vote-leave-dominic-cummings-online-guru-mystery-letter-dark-ads

[hoolahoop]

What would it take for brexiters to accept that they were mugged used and abused for political gain by a small number of people that want to take Britain back in time. Still waiting for any good news about brexit, don't be shy, don't hold back.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/25/vote-leave-dominic-cummings-online-guru-mystery-letter-dark-ads

Eventually there are  going to be some big names that won't be able to conceal their unpatriotic and potentially catastrophic past behaviour for much longer.
Bojo,  Grovel and Garage will  be dragged in front of Parliamentary committees to explain their actions .

It would not surprise me if this lot were deep in cahoots with the Trump campaign and their Russian connections. ( the same names keep appearing Cambridge Analytica , Bannon,  Russia etc. )
The stone will be lifted - let's see what crawls out.

[auckleyflyer]

Ffs your embarrassing! I voted remain for me it was to maintain the status quo because I feared for my children's futures. The remain campaign was based on fear? Nothing positive about staying just the catastrophe if we dared to leave. A very bad tactic as they didn't understand that in every city, town, and village the general public thought how much worse can it get?! The leave campaign had the job of convincing people of change (always harder) so did embellish and run a positive campaign thats why we ended up with the result. Remain lost what should have been an easy victory because they were basically out of touch. Just like subsequently with the election campaign. Their more savvy now and this result wouldn't happen again.
We will be ok there wont be u boats in the channel and dig for victory campaigns.
Its a shit state of affairs but the best option is the one being taken ; stall stall stall and hope the eu disassembles in the meantime or they offer what we they want (as we are dressed up in another name)
For every leave exaggeration there was a leader from another nation telling us to stay. You can't pontificate about the state of mindof the leave voters its divisive, elitist and as helpful as 2nd anus.
Analyse,understand and add. Get better not bitter!!

[idler]

I voted leave because I saw the EU becoming a far more federal body which wasn't what I wanted. I also resented the threats from politicians and Obama getting involved. It wasn't a matter of being 100% convinced but on balance leave just shaded it. I was on holiday so as usual had a postal vote. The best argument for staying came from my eldest grandson which says a lot for the remain campaign although they were convinced that they would win easily until the last week or so. I expect the politicians/experts to get us the best deal possible to take us forward, that's maybe too much to ask now. I think that auckley has hit the nail on the head we need to act like adults with the EU and get the best deal for both sides.

[SydneyRover]

I voted leave because I saw the EU becoming a far more federal body which wasn't what I wanted. I also resented the threats from politicians and Obama getting involved. It wasn't a matter of being 100% convinced but on balance leave just shaded it. I was on holiday so as usual had a postal vote. The best argument for staying came from my eldest grandson which says a lot for
the remain campaign although they were convinced that they would win easily until the last week or so. I expect the politicians/experts to get us the best deal possible to take us forward, that's maybe too much to ask now. I think that auckley has hit the nail on the head we need to act like adults with the EU and get the best deal for both sides.

Unfortunately Idler the politicians doing the deal are being duplicitous and keeping the worst of the bad news out of sight. This piece from the Independent again shows how the UK is having to suck it up and accept the crumbs being offered. We'll only get the deal that they offer we are not in a position to demand anything. From your comment it appears you could have voted either way are you willing to risk the loss of trade and living standards brexit will bring for a vote that you made where you made on a "shade"
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-transition-period-leak-michel-barnier-theresa-may-boris-johnson-a8067841.html

[wilts rover]

At this point I think it is worth reminding people that no talks have yet started on the deal for the future relationship between us and the EU. All that has been going on are the talks about when the talks should start which was supposed to be the easy bit.

People clearly voted leave for various different reason, idler there with concerns over federalism, other people said it was the money we gave to the EU, control of immigration, sovereignty etc. It's only now we are having a proper debate on what the overall consequences of those single issues will be.

My thought on the referendum has always been how poor the Remain campaign was, concentrating on Project Fear rather than how we benefit from being a member of the EU. Shame on Cameron and Osborne for it - for it was their campaign. The shame on this government is the lack of vision or plan for the negotiations or this future arrangement.

As auckely said, analyse, add and understand. If the government believe that public opinion is behind something (or against them) thats when things change.

[idler]

The problem is Wilts that very few politicians of any persuasion inspire any confidence at the moment.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.

No blame on Corbyn? The man who could have put some fire in the bellies of left-wing remainers, but spent the night before the vote navel-gazing and explaining on an obscure left-wing American internet channel that “while there’s a principled left-wing argument for leaving the EU, and I understand that,”[1] on balance we’re better off in because (and I shit you not) “plastic bags dropped in the sea off Colombia can end up in the North Pacific.”

No failings of leadership there?

[1] Well, he WOULD understand the argument, wouldn’t he? He made it passionately and eloquently on a regular basis for 40 years before he was elected Labour leader.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Its a shit state of affairs but the best option is the one being taken ; stall stall stall and hope the eu disassembles in the meantime or they offer what we they want

Auckley

We’re not stalling as part of some brilliant negotiating strategy. We’re stalling for one reason. There is no sensible agreement we can come to with the EU that will be acceptable to the Tory party membership.

It’s that simple.

The EU isn’t going to fall apart over this. We’re not that important. The EU has been ruthlessly consistent in its negotiating approach and will continue to be so.

May is in a horrific political trap. Any deal that would be acceptable to the EU and to Parliament would see her kicked out by the Tory party. Any deal that is acceptable to the Tory party would either not be acceptable to the EU or would pass a vote in Parliament.

But that’s of no concern to the EU. That’s the problem of the UK and the Tory party.

This ends in one of two ways. There’s a political crisis in this country, leading to the Govt falling and the Tory party being sidelined so that we can have adult discussions with Europe. Or the hardline wing of the Tory party wins out, and we go for the hardest of Brexits. There isn’t any alternative outcome.

[DonnyOsmond]

Funny thing is the places where people voted Leave probably did best with the funding. Even Doncaster. Just look at the news over the last few months they're more interested in London transport links than the Norths links.