Brexit Negotiations

[Glyn_Wigley]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42249854

This is quite simply beyond belief.

We’re more than half way through the most important national negotiation since WWII and the Govt hasn’t conducted an assessment of the consequences of different outcomes?

How in God’s name do you negotiate if you don’t know the possible outcomes?

Even more pertinent as far as I'm concerned is why didn't he say this in the first place when Parliament asked for the data, and why has it then had to be dragged out of him in Committee.

[Not Now Kato]

Somehow, our Governments complete lack of forward planning and impact assesment reminds me of this....
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWDdd5KKhts
 
Brexit seems likely to have a similar ending.
 

[Not Now Kato]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42249854

This is quite simply beyond belief.

We’re more than half way through the most important national negotiation since WWII and the Govt hasn’t conducted an assessment of the consequences of different outcomes?

How in God’s name do you negotiate if you don’t know the possible outcomes?

Even more pertinent as far as I'm concerned is why didn't he say this in the first place when Parliament asked for the data, and why has it then had to be dragged out of him in Committee.

Schrodinger's Cat appears to have the answer Glyn
 
http://newsthump.com/2017/12/06/david-davis-schrodingers-brexit-impact-assessments-simultaneously-exist-and-dont-exist/
 

[Copps is Magic]

Is it fair to summarise the situation as no one really knows what we're doing apart from agreeing to pay the EU what we'd already previously agreed to pay the EU?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I cannot for a moment imagine that even a Government as dysfunctional as this one would be so incompetent as to not think about having economic assessments done.

Which leads me to one of two conclusions.

1) Davis is telling the truth - they haven't had the assessments  done because they don't want to hear what they would say.[1]

2) Davis is lying. They HAVE had the assessments done and they don't want YOU to know what they say.

[1] Davis's actual defence this morning "I am not a fan of economic models because they have all proven wrong," is bullshit of the highest order. ALL Governments have economic assessments done to check what effect policy is likely to have. That's why the Govt is the biggest employer of economists in the country. https://www.faststream.gov.uk/government-economic-service/ with the Government Economics Service putting "economics at the heart of the policy-making process, to influence and shape the government’s response to some of the key issues of the day".

We are totally through the looking glass here aren't we, into a world where lying is now so ingrained that it just comes as standard.

[albie]

All comedy aside, a serious question, why are we putting up with this shit?

Are all expectations so low that no-one can be bothered to even protest when the crooks running the show give up even pretending to care for anything at all, where they make a virtue of their own phenomenal incompetence?

Public life and discourse has become separated from ethical values, and it is seen as odd to think that we should strive for expertise and quality in process and personnel.

So we end up with the likes of Davis, who is basically a used car dealer operating above his pay grade.
Here he is on Andrew Marr in June;
https://youtu.be/0XR-FwfdOos

No surprise then that it is not going to work out well for us.

[Copps is Magic]

1) Davis is telling the truth - they haven't had the assessments  done because they don't want to hear what they would say.[1]

2) Davis is lying. They HAVE had the assessments done and they don't want YOU to know what they say.

For number one to be the case he had to be lying at an earlier point.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/12/many-times-david-davis-talked-about-brexit-analysis-he-says-doesn-t-exist

[MachoMadness]

All comedy aside, a serious question, why are we putting up with this shit?

We've had 18 months of being told anyone asking critical questions about the Brexit process is a traitor, a saboteur, a negative Remoaner who's holding the country down. If only we weren't so negative, voicing our opinion as the shitshow falls apart, Brexit would be going great. Be patriotic. Don't ask questions. Keep calm and carry on.

That kind of language has an effect when it's constantly parroted for 18 months. It keeps Britain divided. Surely most Brexiters now know, somewhere deep inside, they've been had, but rather than admit they were wrong, they'll just double down. Don't want to be a traitor and get death threats like that slag Gina Miller. Don't want to prove them smug Remoaners right. Maybe when we are actually peering over the cliff edge, the anger will spike again and something will be done. Until then, the shitshow will continue unchecked.

[BillyStubbsTears]

True Copps.

It really did not used to be like this. Politicians have always dissembled and meandered around the facts. They have always used what Churchill called "terminological inexactitudes". But there was a certain linguisitic skill in doing that and it was usually obvious to anyone who knew the business.

Th current climate is something totally different. It is simply being prepared to bluntly say "yes" when you know the answer is "no". And then, shortly afterwards, being prepared to say "no" about the same issue and to do both because a) it suits your case at the time and b) you are confident that no-one cares enough about it to pull you up.

This is a very bad path. As Hannah Arendt (who knew a thing or two about the consequences of allowing people to invent their own truth) put it:

[MachoMadness]

The Brexit Committee finds that David Davis should not face contempt proceedings and he didn't mislead parliament by withholding full impact documents. These are the documents from a few weeks ago, I don't think the nonexistent documents from today had any bearing on this. Or did they? Who f**king knows anything anymore?

10 Tory MPs and 1 DUP MP found Davis was not in contempt. 8 Opposition MPs found he was. Shocking, eh?

[hoolahoop]

My guess is we will ALL end up in the CU with regulatory divergence

Still living in blind hope that we'll just say f**k it and give it up as a bad job.

You too as well Red J - great to see you have come round to the idea.

I've always been against the entire thing. 

Thought you had ......phew .

[hoolahoop]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42249854

This is quite simply beyond belief.

We’re more than half way through the most important national negotiation since WWII and the Govt hasn’t conducted an assessment of the consequences of different outcomes?

How in God’s name do you negotiate if you don’t know the possible outcomes?

It does beggar belief but so does the committee's decision NOT to press for him to be held in contempt . Mind like every Select committee it is stacked with Unionists- they are going to drive this through whatever the cost as no-one really protests  against them.

We are doomed , Govt.departments are doing what the hell they like, important committees are totally biased, the young inhibited from fighting for their futures as they think that St. Jezza wouldnt like it etc., and finally no amendments are being accepted on the withdrawal Bill.

Welcome to the " One Party " state. It certainly appears at the moment that there isn't a way of derailing them. Basically they can do what they want without fear or favour.
Depressed tonight about whats been happening over the last 48 hours in British politics.

[SydneyRover]

The sentiment seems to be exasperated anger and that there are no legs left to stand on is evident by the not slightest peep from any wrexiteers in the current conversation. We are not sliding to financial anarchy but actually accelerating towards it is beyond belief. We are in this position from due to an incompetent leader of an incompetent government that then legs it to leave a rabble fighting for their self interests rather than for the needs of Britain is truly breathtaking.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/06/uk-has-48-hours-to-agree-potential-deal-or-brexit-talks-cannot-progress.

[hoolahoop]

However Sydney this begs the question where is the Opposition in all this .....seemingly in as much disarray.
Does the population of this country care anymore about their future declining living standards, their jobs or even their ability to travel and work freely ?

Why are the opponents NOT getting together and  making their voices heard ? Why are they not marching on the capital as they would in every other country given the decisions taken on their behalf ?

Where the feck is Momentum and the Labour movement in all this ? They boast of a young and politically aware group but even they aren't stirring !

Wtf is wrong with our people ...........?

[SydneyRover]

However Sydney this begs the question where is the Opposition in all this .....seemingly in as much disarray.
Does the population of this country care anymore about their future declining living standards, their jobs or even their ability to travel and work freely ?

Why are the opponents NOT getting together and  making their voices heard ? Why are they not marching on the capital as they would in every other country given the decisions taken on their behalf ?

Where the feck is Momentum and the Labour movement in all this ? They boast of a young and politically aware group but even they aren't stirring !

Wtf is wrong with our people ...........?

Maybe it's the constant battle just to survive that wearies people, how long has "austerity" gone on, how long have people suffered from employers being allowed to retain them on zero hours contracts, how long have those unable to find meaningful work been attacked as lazy, it takes its toll.

[The Red Baron]

And just when Brexit appears to be in increasing difficult, along comes a Eurocrat to give it a helping hand.

https://mobile.twitter.com/MartinSchulz/status/938748811375271936?p=v

No UK Government could ratify a constitution for a  "United States of Europe." It would be electoral suicide. So in effect we'd be expelled from the club. Not that I think we'd be on our own.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

He's positioning himself for the likely new election in Germany.

There is no possibility whatsoever in our lifetimes of a United States of Europe. Certainly not a "You join or you're out altogether" type. All the momentum is for a multi-layer Europe.

Bogeymen. They're not real.

[The Red Baron]

But those sort of statements are meat and drink to Brexiteers and I can't imagine them going down well in Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic etc.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well aye. Thing is, we’re not the only ones who have internal politics going on which piss off other countries. The trick is to be intelligent about our response and not make such things into problems that aren’t warranted.

If there’d been a more rational debate last year (or for the past 30 years) instead of people lapping up Johnson and Farage’s knowing lies about 80 million Turks getting the right to enter Britain, we wouldn’t be in the shit pot that we have dived into.

[hoolahoop]

And just when Brexit appears to be in increasing difficult, along comes a Eurocrat to give it a helping hand.

https://mobile.twitter.com/MartinSchulz/status/938748811375271936?p=v

No UK Government could ratify a constitution for a  "United States of Europe." It would be electoral suicide. So in effect we'd be expelled from the club. Not that I think we'd be on our own.

Utter nonsense - this man is a fool and should be ignored.

[Glyn_Wigley]

And just when Brexit appears to be in increasing difficult, along comes a Eurocrat to give it a helping hand.

https://mobile.twitter.com/MartinSchulz/status/938748811375271936?p=v

No UK Government could ratify a constitution for a  "United States of Europe." It would be electoral suicide. So in effect we'd be expelled from the club. Not that I think we'd be on our own.

I've never heard of him, what is he in the EU?

[hoolahoop]

He's a FORMER  President of the EU and is pressing ( in his dreams ) to be the leader in Germany. I can see no reason at all why his words would be " meat and drink for Brexiters " . A  ' United States of Europe ' is certainly not the dream of most EU citizens - like I said he is to be ignored and treated as a fool.

[The Red Baron]

He's a FORMER  President of the EU and is pressing ( in his dreams ) to be the leader in Germany. I can see no reason at all why his words would be " meat and drink for Brexiters " . A  ' United States of Europe ' is certainly not the dream of most EU citizens - like I said he is to be ignored and treated as a fool.

I'd agree it isn't a dream of most citizens. But it is of most Eurocrats. And the history of the EU over the last quarter century has been a concentration of power in the centre. Had anything happened to reverse that trend, we may not have ended where we are now.

[hoolahoop]

He's a FORMER  President of the EU and is pressing ( in his dreams ) to be the leader in Germany. I can see no reason at all why his words would be " meat and drink for Brexiters " . A  ' United States of Europe ' is certainly not the dream of most EU citizens - like I said he is to be ignored and treated as a fool.

I'd agree it isn't a dream of most citizens. But it is of most Eurocrats. And the history of the EU over the last quarter century has been a concentration of power in the centre. Had anything happened to reverse that trend, we may not have ended where we are now.

We continually blame the EU  for their current " One size fits all " stance in most areas , however our own Government attempts and succeeds to do exactly the same with the 4 countries within it's  direct sphere of influence.........against their will !

The days of old  Empires  and different nations like the United Kingdom, Spain, Belgium, Canada and even the USA held together more or less against the will of their constituent parts are  numbered. Loose coalitions within trading blocs , pooling resources on R & D, Transport even, dare I say it , Defense are the way forward.

We kept asking for further opt -outs and basically weren't pulling our weight in certain areas.

However that said there have to be basic tenets agreed upon not thrust upon nations working together.....we wanted all the gain and none of the pain especially in regard to mass migration.   

[BillyStubbsTears]

This from today’s report from May and Juncker.

“49. The United Kingdom remains committed to protecting North-South cooperation and to its guarantee of avoiding a hard border. Any future arrangements must be compatible with these overarching requirements. The United Kingdom's intention is to achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship. Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland. In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement. ”

There’s the timebomb. They’ve rushed this through so that they can move onto trade negotiations.

I’ll translate from Bullshit into English:

“We don’t really know how to get a situation where UK is out of SM and CU but there’s no hard border in Ireland. So we’ll give ourselves time to think about it. And if we can’t come up with a solution (which we won’t be able to do) then NI will stay inside the SM and CU. Which means GB will stay inside the SM and CU. Which will tear the Tory party apart. Or GB doesn’t stay inside. Which means there’ll be a border in the Irish Sea. Which will tear NI apart. So. As you were. No nearer sorting this out. We’ve put the inevitable crisis off for 18 months. But it’ll come...”

[RedJ]

I see Sturgeon has piped up demanding the same for Scotland, and claiming if they left the UK there's no way we could tell them there'd be no hard border, totally ignoring the historical context of the Irish problem. God I hate that woman. Wilfully ignorant of anything that doesn't suit her sole cause.

[The Red Baron]

BST

I had a feeling that a massive fudge would be cooked up, since both sides (maybe secretly in the case of the EU negotiators) are desperate to get onto trade talks.

I'll tell you what, I wish I'd had a bet that the UK will end up staying in the SM and CU. Because that's the direction this points in. I'm a bit surprised that the Tory Brexiteers haven't thrown their toys out, although they are probably keeping their powder dry.

[SydneyRover]

So it appears that everyone living outside of England Scotland and Wales has a better deal?

[Donnywolf]

I see Sturgeon has piped up demanding the same for Scotland, and claiming if they left the UK there's no way we could tell them there'd be no hard border, totally ignoring the historical context of the Irish problem. God I hate that woman. Wilfully ignorant of anything that doesn't suit her sole cause.

Someone should tell her that the Independence Referendum voted to stay as part of the UK . Tell her and the others "its democracy get over it" .

That's what the people who voted to leave the EU keep telling those who voted to remain "get over it its democracy" However the ones pushing for the EU Referendum in the first place kept going going going as indeed will the SNP till they get the result that they desire

[hoolahoop]

I see Sturgeon has piped up demanding the same for Scotland, and claiming if they left the UK there's no way we could tell them there'd be no hard border, totally ignoring the historical context of the Irish problem. God I hate that woman. Wilfully ignorant of anything that doesn't suit her sole cause.

Why do you hate her , it's her belief - disagree with her I understand but hate her that's a bit strange Red J.

I would hope our leader would explore every angle to advantage us wherever possible - I'm not sure we can say that with the leader (?) We have ?