Brexit Negotiations

[BillyStubbsTears]

I see David Davis’s Department has had a Male-over.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ProfKAArmstrong/status/939239631735967744/photo/1

[hoolahoop]

Young people might like to question the older generations as to why they are so keen to turn their back on the high principles of the Treaty of Rome

..............................................................

The Preamble to the 1957 Treaty of Rome.

DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever-closer union among the peoples of Europe,

RESOLVED to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common action to eliminate the barriers which divide Europe,

AFFIRMING as the essential objective of their efforts the constant improvement of the living and working conditions of their peoples,

RECOGNISING that the removal of existing obstacles calls for concerted action in order to guarantee steady expansion, balanced trade and fair competition,

ANXIOUS to strengthen the unity of their economies and to ensure their harmonious development by reducing the differences existing between the various regions and the backwardness of the less favoured regions,

DESIRING to contribute, by means of a common commercial policy, to the progressive abolition of restrictions on international trade,

INTENDING to confirm the solidarity which binds Europe and the overseas countries and desiring to ensure the development of their prosperity, in accordance with the principles of the Charter of the United Nations,

RESOLVED by thus pooling their resources to preserve and strengthen peace and liberty, and calling upon the other peoples of Europe who share their ideal to join in their efforts


Who in their right mind in Britain or the EU would put their trust in assurances from Treeza May, Boris, Gove, IDS, or any of her gang of Brexit Ministers ?


What exactly are their principles and where is the evidence ?

UK was not a signatory to the Treaty of Rome

Are you serious ? We accepted All the tenets of the Treaty of Rome on Accession - failure to do so would have meant we could never have turned our country around on the back of the EU .

Thought you were unnecessarily harsh on GW  when you clearly knew what I meant and what we stand to lose.

The ambitions of the T of R have largely been obtained haven't they ? I drive round Donny and think " that was built with allocated EU money "", " that's on going " etc. Much of that round our County would NEVER  have been allocated Central government funding .

See point 5 above .

[Filo]

Young people might like to question the older generations as to why they are so keen to turn their back on the high principles of the Treaty of Rome

..............................................................

The Preamble to the 1957 Treaty of Rome.

DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever-closer union among the peoples of Europe,

RESOLVED to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common action to eliminate the barriers which divide Europe,

AFFIRMING as the essential objective of their efforts the constant improvement of the living and working conditions of their peoples,

RECOGNISING that the removal of existing obstacles calls for concerted action in order to guarantee steady expansion, balanced trade and fair competition,

ANXIOUS to strengthen the unity of their economies and to ensure their harmonious development by reducing the differences existing between the various regions and the backwardness of the less favoured regions,

DESIRING to contribute, by means of a common commercial policy, to the progressive abolition of restrictions on international trade,

INTENDING to confirm the solidarity which binds Europe and the overseas countries and desiring to ensure the development of their prosperity, in accordance with the principles of the Charter of the United Nations,

RESOLVED by thus pooling their resources to preserve and strengthen peace and liberty, and calling upon the other peoples of Europe who share their ideal to join in their efforts


Who in their right mind in Britain or the EU would put their trust in assurances from Treeza May, Boris, Gove, IDS, or any of her gang of Brexit Ministers ?


What exactly are their principles and where is the evidence ?

UK was not a signatory to the Treaty of Rome

Are you serious ? We accepted All the tenets of the Treaty of Rome on Accession - failure to do so would have meant we could never have turned our country around on the back of the EU .

Thought you were unnecessarily harsh on GW  when you clearly knew what I meant and what we stand to lose.

The ambitions of the T of R have largely been obtained haven't they ? I drive round Donny and think " that was built with allocated EU money "", " that's on going " etc. Much of that round our County would NEVER  have been allocated Central government funding .

See point 5 above .

Harsh?

He said in his demeaning manner of posting that we had signed the Treaty of Rome, when we clearly have n't

[hoolahoop]

Young people might like to question the older generations as to why they are so keen to turn their back on the high principles of the Treaty of Rome

..............................................................

The Preamble to the 1957 Treaty of Rome.

DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever-closer union among the peoples of Europe,

RESOLVED to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common action to eliminate the barriers which divide Europe,

AFFIRMING as the essential objective of their efforts the constant improvement of the living and working conditions of their peoples,

RECOGNISING that the removal of existing obstacles calls for concerted action in order to guarantee steady expansion, balanced trade and fair competition,

ANXIOUS to strengthen the unity of their economies and to ensure their harmonious development by reducing the differences existing between the various regions and the backwardness of the less favoured regions,

DESIRING to contribute, by means of a common commercial policy, to the progressive abolition of restrictions on international trade,

INTENDING to confirm the solidarity which binds Europe and the overseas countries and desiring to ensure the development of their prosperity, in accordance with the principles of the Charter of the United Nations,

RESOLVED by thus pooling their resources to preserve and strengthen peace and liberty, and calling upon the other peoples of Europe who share their ideal to join in their efforts


Who in their right mind in Britain or the EU would put their trust in assurances from Treeza May, Boris, Gove, IDS, or any of her gang of Brexit Ministers ?


What exactly are their principles and where is the evidence ?

UK was not a signatory to the Treaty of Rome

Are you serious ? We accepted All the tenets of the Treaty of Rome on Accession - failure to do so would have meant we could never have turned our country around on the back of the EU .

Thought you were unnecessarily harsh on GW  when you clearly knew what I meant and what we stand to lose.

The ambitions of the T of R have largely been obtained haven't they ? I drive round Donny and think " that was built with allocated EU money "", " that's on going " etc. Much of that round our County would NEVER  have been allocated Central government funding .

See point 5 above .

Harsh?

He said in his demeaning manner of posting that we had signed the Treaty of Rome, when we clearly have n't

However whatever the year we have signed up for all of the above and on that they have so far largely delivered. Glyn was only pointing out you were being picky with me and you were.

There is far more that binds us together than separates us all and on this one single issue emotions are and have run high ; time we cut each other some slack.

I'm sure you agree that I wasn't trying to mislead anyone ?

[BillyStubbsTears]

They say it the sign of a good friend that they stand by you when you’re in trouble. What does that say about Ireland then?

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-ireland-has-just-saved-the-uk-from-the-madness-of-a-hard-brexit-1.3320096?mode=amp&__twitter_impression=true

And where is the journalism in THIS country that is informing the population of the reality of these momentous decisions?

[Dutch Uncle]

Love that article BST. Just a shame that its inescapable logic to the collapse of Brexit excludes one important factor - the combination of incompetence, personal agendas and egoes of some politicians who we have already seen put their own short term futures above the country's long term future.   

[Glyn_Wigley]

Love that article BST. Just a shame that its inescapable logic to the collapse of Brexit excludes one important factor - the combination of incompetence, personal agendas and egoes of some politicians who we have already seen put their own short term futures above the country's long term future.   

Exhibit Number 1:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42298971

If I was the EU I'd refuse to carry on negotiating with this buffoon after this latest spout of BS of trying to tie Brexit terms to a trade deal that has nothing to do with Brexit, especially as - unlike John Profumo - he hasn't got the honour or integrity to resign after being caught lying to Parliament.

[hoolahoop]

They say it the sign of a good friend that they stand by you when you’re in trouble. What does that say about Ireland then?

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-ireland-has-just-saved-the-uk-from-the-madness-of-a-hard-brexit-1.3320096?mode=amp&__twitter_impression=true

And where is the journalism in THIS country that is informing the population of the reality of these momentous decisions?

Great article and I can't see where there can be a fault line  in any of the arguments for Brexiters to exploit.
Brexiters have been kippered . Lol

[hoolahoop]

Love that article BST. Just a shame that its inescapable logic to the collapse of Brexit excludes one important factor - the combination of incompetence, personal agendas and egoes of some politicians who we have already seen put their own short term futures above the country's long term future.   

Exhibit Number 1:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42298971

If I was the EU I'd refuse to carry on negotiating with this buffoon after this latest spout of BS of trying to tie Brexit terms to a trade deal that has nothing to do with Brexit, especially as - unlike John Profumo - he hasn't got the honour or integrity to resign after being caught lying to Parliament.

His goose is cooked and about time the lying t**t.

[wilts rover]

An interesting report that escaped out with very little notice last week. People must have been busy with something else.

People are more pessimistic about Brexit and the governments' handling of negotiations, yet they still want it to happen as control of immigration is more important to them than trade and economic consequences.

http://natcen.ac.uk/news-media/press-releases/2017/december/voters-more-pessimistic-about-the-outcome-of-brexit,-but-have-not-changed-their-minds-about-what-brexit-should-mean/

Nice piece on it in the Guardian which is summed up by 'what happens when people realise they have been conned'.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/10/brexit-mirage-brussels-talks-theresa-may

[idler]

Anyone with any sense that voted leave cannot be happy with the way this situation has progressed. The politicians in the main on both sides were pathetic before the vote and haven't improved since. It brings incompetence to a whole new level.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I agree that the politicians’ performances were appalling.

Out and out lies from Farage, Johnson and Gove.

Arrogance from Cameron. Over-inflated fear (which obscured the REAL threat) from Osborne. Corbyn sitting on his hands because he fundamentally wanted us out but couldn’t say so.

It says something that John Major seemed like the only statesman in the referendum debate. Every single one of his predictions has been vindicated.

But I’m not having any of those failings as excuses for individuals’ votes. Information WAS out there if people really wanted to look for it. There was one overwhelming point which made it clear what the differences were between the two sides. Every major world leader was advising us to vote Remain. Apart from 3 - Le Pen, Trump and Putin.

Anyone who cared enough to think about it could have asked themselves what those three had to gain from Brexit.

But people preferred to ignore those points and any other information that suggested Brexit would be a problem. On the week of the vote, a poll said more than 50% still believed the £350m claim. Those people simply did not engage with the debate because it was very easy to learn that was a lie. If you wanted to hear it.

[i_ateallthepies]

An interesting report that escaped out with very little notice last week. People must have been busy with something else.

People are more pessimistic about Brexit and the governments' handling of negotiations, yet they still want it to happen as control of immigration is more important to them than trade and economic consequences.

http://natcen.ac.uk/news-media/press-releases/2017/december/voters-more-pessimistic-about-the-outcome-of-brexit,-but-have-not-changed-their-minds-about-what-brexit-should-mean/

Nice piece on it in the Guardian which is summed up by 'what happens when people realise they have been conned'.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/10/brexit-mirage-brussels-talks-theresa-may

You have to hand it to the Brexiteers, genius strategy.  Make the country an economic basket case and no f**ker will want to come.  Job done!!!

[hoolahoop]

I watched the debate today , all the supposed rebel Tories seemed to be fully behind this nonsense . The Soubrys, Morgan's ect. all there patting her on the back .

Corbyn missed a real trick today even Hilary Benn forgot to mention the missing impact assessments . It was poor from Labour at what was or should have been sitting targets .

Little or nothing was achieved by any of the Opposition Parties except the SNP 's ian Blackford who at least makes Treeza work at it .

This has to be the worst bunch of Parliamentarians of my lifetime - they are pathetic!

[SydneyRover]

"People are more pessimistic about Brexit and the governments' handling of negotiations, yet they still want it to happen as control of immigration is more important to them than trade and economic consequences"

Irrational, it's the propaganda about economic associations of immigration that have been used to wind people up, "they'll take my job, my house, my dole money" mainly by UKIP.
Maybe cos they don't work in London they don't believe that there will be a serious knock on effect.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/11/brexit-city-of-london-jobs-ey-dublin-frankfurt

[Donnywolf]

This has to be the worst bunch of Parliamentarians of my lifetime - they are pathetic!

I think you are right. There have been bad Government before and when the Tories got routed and Tony Blair and Labour got in the Tories looked like they would never regain power for years

However their "crime" was looking old and out of touch - a totally different matter to the idiots we have at the moment (on both sides). They seem devoid of any morals whatsoever and have brought a new "art" to not answering any question that might prove tricky for them

[Glyn_Wigley]

This has to be the worst bunch of Parliamentarians of my lifetime - they are pathetic!

I think you are right. There have been bad Government before and when the Tories got routed and Tony Blair and Labour got in the Tories looked like they would never regain power for years

However their "crime" was looking old and out of touch - a totally different matter to the idiots we have at the moment (on both sides). They seem devoid of any morals whatsoever and have brought a new "art" to not answering any question that might prove tricky for them

Just old and out of touch? What about all the sleaze and continual infighting?

[drfchound]

I am astonished that anyone is surprised that politicians (of all parties) don't tell the truth or give straight answers to questions.

As for infighting, well that has always been the case hasn't it?

[hoolahoop]

Yes hound but the banding about of different statistics to somehow prove that more is being spent on this or that than 2010 has become ridiculous. There should be a body to dispute and hold those to account that blatantly and continuously lie a statistical watchdog if you like.

[drfchound]

Yes hound but the banding about of different statistics to somehow prove that more is being spent on this or that than 2010 has become ridiculous. There should be a body to dispute and hold those to account that blatantly and continuously lie a statistical watchdog if you like.

Hoola, come on mate, we all know that this is what all politicians do all the time.

[hoolahoop]

There is a huge imbalance between young and old in Parliament . It needs addressing fast as decisions can't always be made by the old for the young- there is a disconnect and a misunderstanding of youth cultures, needs etc.
Personally it's time that we limited the years spent in Parliament by individuals ......i.e. 30/40 + years is far too long to ' nurse ' the politics of yesteryear and impede the policies required for the ever-evolving needs of the here and now and of course plan for the future.

Yes by all means learn from yesterday but to still live there is a crime in politics and that  has brought us into this mess. A group of 60 + year old men have been nursing an ideology that simply held us back in Europe . Rather than shape it they continuously fought against it .
 The rest will be the future history written about the downfall of the UK brought about by these old , grey men in suits. Those who who fo years plotted and eventually destroyed the futures of generations to come .

[hoolahoop]

Yes hound but the banding about of different statistics to somehow prove that more is being spent on this or that than 2010 has become ridiculous. There should be a body to dispute and hold those to account that blatantly and continuously lie a statistical watchdog if you like.

Of course I know that hound I'm not naive but who gives a feck if xyz % more is being spent on say the NHS than was spent in 2010 when the money is STILL insufficient . Tit for tat 2 Party politics is killing this country and that needs sorting out if we are to proceed as a modern democracy. Money is forever being wasted simply reversing the way the " other " lot did things .......We don't move on . No wonder we are getting left behind compared to many other leading countries in the areas where key indicators can be compared.




Hoola, come on mate, we all know that this is what all politicians do all the time.

[The Red Baron]

I watched the debate today , all the supposed rebel Tories seemed to be fully behind this nonsense . The Soubrys, Morgan's ect. all there patting her on the back .

Corbyn missed a real trick today even Hilary Benn forgot to mention the missing impact assessments . It was poor from Labour at what was or should have been sitting targets .

Little or nothing was achieved by any of the Opposition Parties except the SNP 's ian Blackford who at least makes Treeza work at it .

This has to be the worst bunch of Parliamentarians of my lifetime - they are pathetic!

Of course Soubry, Morgan and Ken Clarke like it because they can see the direction of travel. They know that the fudge on the border on Ireland means that ultimately the UK will stay in the CU and SM. That will, of course, beg the question of what the point is of leaving the EU. No wonder they are happy.

As for Labour, they have two problems. Most probably like the direction of travel too, but can't be seen to praise May.  The other problem is the leader, who is probably secretly disappointed.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I am astonished that anyone is surprised that politicians (of all parties) don't tell the truth or give straight answers to questions.

As for infighting, well that has always been the case hasn't it?

A majority government deliberately making itself into a minority government because it's own MPs weren't willing to follow their own leader smacks of a different level of infighting though.

[The Red Baron]

Yes hound but the banding about of different statistics to somehow prove that more is being spent on this or that than 2010 has become ridiculous. There should be a body to dispute and hold those to account that blatantly and continuously lie a statistical watchdog if you like.

There is a watchdog, the ONS, which does from time to time pull up individual politicians (BoJo on more than one occasion) although the politicians usually bluster their way out. Naturally as a government body they have to be careful not to be seen to be getting involved in party politics.

The Government is spending more on the NHS: The issue is whether it is enough to meet demand. The evidence is that it isn't.

[The Red Baron]

I am astonished that anyone is surprised that politicians (of all parties) don't tell the truth or give straight answers to questions.

As for infighting, well that has always been the case hasn't it?

A majority government deliberately making itself into a minority government because it's own MPs weren't willing to follow their own leader smacks of a different level of infighting though.

Not sure what you mean. The Tories lost their majority because May miscalculated and then fought a wretched campaign.

[Donnywolf]

There is a huge imbalance between young and old in Parliament . It needs addressing fast as decisions can't always be made by the old for the young- there is a disconnect and a misunderstanding of youth cultures, needs etc.
Personally it's time that we limited the years spent in Parliament by individuals ......i.e. 30/40 + years is far too long to ' nurse ' the politics of yesteryear and impede the policies required for the ever-evolving needs of the here and now and of course plan for the future.

Yes by all means learn from yesterday but to still live there is a crime in politics and that  has brought us into this mess. A group of 60 + year old men have been nursing an ideology that simply held us back in Europe . Rather than shape it they continuously fought against it .
 The rest will be the future history written about the downfall of the UK brought about by these old , grey men in suits. Those who who fo years plotted and eventually destroyed the futures of generations to come .

Thats why I hope ultimately that PR will be realised to be the way to go electorally

I used to laugh at the Libs and others weeping because they wanted PR - and I used to think "hah that's cos you cant win - bad losers"

However I can say when I became more aware I could see exactly what they want(ed) and they could count on my vote if anyone has the b***s to call it.

More people especially the younger voters may actually vote in greater numbers rather than thinking (for example) that the Tories will win the Constituency in which they are to vote by 10,000 so there is no point voting.

They could in future vote for the Green Party or Lib Dems and really affect the outcomes of Elections and ultimately the Country they get to live in

[The Red Baron]

Agreed, DW. I have become a convert to PR because of the failure of Two Party politics.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I am astonished that anyone is surprised that politicians (of all parties) don't tell the truth or give straight answers to questions.

As for infighting, well that has always been the case hasn't it?

A majority government deliberately making itself into a minority government because it's own MPs weren't willing to follow their own leader smacks of a different level of infighting though.

Not sure what you mean. The Tories lost their majority because May miscalculated and then fought a wretched campaign.

I was replying to Donnywolf, who was talking about the Major government, as was I.

[The Red Baron]

I am astonished that anyone is surprised that politicians (of all parties) don't tell the truth or give straight answers to questions.

As for infighting, well that has always been the case hasn't it?

A majority government deliberately making itself into a minority government because it's own MPs weren't willing to follow their own leader smacks of a different level of infighting though.

Not sure what you mean. The Tories lost their majority because May miscalculated and then fought a wretched campaign.

I was replying to Donnywolf, who was talking about the Major government, as was I.

In that case, my apologies.