Brexit Negotiations

[Glyn_Wigley]

They obviously believed May when she kept on parroting 'no deal is better than a bad deal'!

[hoolahoop]

They obviously believed May when she kept on parroting 'no deal is better than a bad deal'!

The Government and certainly the Maybot gave them ample reason to prepare for such an eventuality with the constant parroting of " no deal is better than a bad deal "  - really who decides whether it is a bad deal ?
Why wouldn't they prepare for it  - signs of really poor bluffs from a poker player holding a pair of deuces. 
" No deal " it is then with this orchestrated manoeuvre or we back down big time and do more u turns . I fancy the latter and a fall of government by the summer.

[Glyn_Wigley]

'Why wouldn't they prepare for it'...you're asking the question the wrong way round - why should they prepare anything? They didn't vote for Brexit, we did and dumped it on them and now apparently expect them to sort it out for us!

[DevilMayCry]

Brexit: Nigel Farage says 'maybe' there should be a second referendum on EU membership

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-nigel-farage-second-referendum-eu-membership-wright-stuff-video-ukip-maybe-leader-a8153106.html

[BillyStubbsTears]

People moaning about the result?

That’ll be the Farage who said in May 2016:”If we were to lose narrowly, there'd be a large section, particularly in the Conservative Party, who'd feel the prime minister is not playing fair, that the Remain side is using way more money than the Leave side and there would be a resentment that would build up if that was to be the result.”

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681

Still, what do expect from him? The Kitson who said on the morning after the vote, “we did it without a shot being fired.” A week after Jo Cox had been shot dead by a maniac shouting “This is for Britain. Britain will always come first.”

[Glyn_Wigley]

People moaning about the result?

That’ll be the Farage who said in May 2016:”If we were to lose narrowly, there'd be a large section, particularly in the Conservative Party, who'd feel the prime minister is not playing fair, that the Remain side is using way more money than the Leave side and there would be a resentment that would build up if that was to be the result.”

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681

Still, what do expect from him? The Kitson who said on the morning after the vote, “we did it without a shot being fired.” A week after Jo Cox had been shot dead by a maniac shouting “This is for Britain. Britain will always come first.”

It's also the Farage who's seeing the dosh from the job that he sees as a sinecure disappearing into the distance.

[Donnywolf]

AND he wants another Vote to emphasise how much we really want to leave because we (the people) would vote in higher numbers to Leave

Im not an expert in Politics but can have an opinion and it is this. If another Referendum was held now the result would be massively in favour of Remain

I will settle though for a Vote when we have "some meat on the bones" whenever that comes along

[The Red Baron]

Brexit: Nigel Farage says 'maybe' there should be a second referendum on EU membership

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-nigel-farage-second-referendum-eu-membership-wright-stuff-video-ukip-maybe-leader-a8153106.html

As Metternich said on learning of the death of Talleyrand, "what did he mean by that?" Farage seems to think that Leave would win another In / Out referendum, but I'm not so sure.

I do think his call will strengthen the hand of those who want a referendum on the terms of the final deal. I think that also might not produce the result he thinks it will.

Very odd.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

Maybe Putin’s changed his mind about Brexit...

[Glyn_Wigley]

...or he's needing the cash now his bessie mate Donald's not given him a nice cushy well-paid job..!

[SydneyRover]

Methinks this maybe insurance by Farage so that the long suffering British publish don't have drawn and quartered and the pieces sent to the far corners of the earth.

[i_ateallthepies]

The result of the referendum didn't surprise me, I thought from the start it would be a leave result.  Nor do I believe another referendum would overturn the result.  I can just see it now, Boris, Farage and their mates banging the drum of how the Eurocrats have behaved like total C**ts not giving us a fair deal and the sooner we're shut of the lot of them the better.

[graingrover]

Since the referendum ( I was not qualified to vote because I have lived on the European mainland too long) the EU has ;
 Agreed to build an army ( presumably a navy and airforce )
 Failed to comment on the imprisonment of politicians in Spain
  Taken a number of POLITICAL decisions within the Eurozone for the benefit of the common currency but not in the interests of non Eurozone members .   

[SydneyRover]

Since the referendum ( I was not qualified to vote because I have lived on the European mainland too long) the EU has ;
 Agreed to build an army ( presumably a navy and airforce )
 Failed to comment on the imprisonment of politicians in Spain
  Taken a number of POLITICAL decisions within the Eurozone for the benefit of the common currency but not in the interests of non Eurozone members .   

I think you'll have give a bit more detail so I/we can understand the point of your comment.

[The Red Baron]

Since the referendum ( I was not qualified to vote because I have lived on the European mainland too long) the EU has ;
 Agreed to build an army ( presumably a navy and airforce )
 Failed to comment on the imprisonment of politicians in Spain
  Taken a number of POLITICAL decisions within the Eurozone for the benefit of the common currency but not in the interests of non Eurozone members .   

This is because over time the EU Commission has become far too powerful. Don't forget that Commissioners are unelected and so not accountable to an electorate. And the Parliament is too weak and divided to hold them in check.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Since the referendum ( I was not qualified to vote because I have lived on the European mainland too long) the EU has ;
 Agreed to build an army ( presumably a navy and airforce )
 Failed to comment on the imprisonment of politicians in Spain
  Taken a number of POLITICAL decisions within the Eurozone for the benefit of the common currency but not in the interests of non Eurozone members .   

This is because over time the EU Commission has become far too powerful. Don't forget that Commissioners are unelected and so not accountable to an electorate. And the Parliament is too weak and divided to hold them in check.

Our civil service are unelected and not accountable to an electorate either.

I agree that the EU Parliament needs to have more muscle - in lots of areas - though.

[wilts rover]

Since the referendum ( I was not qualified to vote because I have lived on the European mainland too long) the EU has ;
 Agreed to build an army ( presumably a navy and airforce )
 Failed to comment on the imprisonment of politicians in Spain
  Taken a number of POLITICAL decisions within the Eurozone for the benefit of the common currency but not in the interests of non Eurozone members .   

Sorry but aren't points one and three contradictory? The idea behind 'building an army' is that with US foreign policy being somewhat flexible at present and the uncertainty this gives to NATO, the western Eurozone countries are showing commitment to defending the eastern non-Eurozone countries against any Russian aggression.

As for point two - are you saying it's a good or bad thing that the EU did the same as the British government?

[The Red Baron]

Since the referendum ( I was not qualified to vote because I have lived on the European mainland too long) the EU has ;
 Agreed to build an army ( presumably a navy and airforce )
 Failed to comment on the imprisonment of politicians in Spain
  Taken a number of POLITICAL decisions within the Eurozone for the benefit of the common currency but not in the interests of non Eurozone members .   

This is because over time the EU Commission has become far too powerful. Don't forget that Commissioners are unelected and so not accountable to an electorate. And the Parliament is too weak and divided to hold them in check.

Our civil service are unelected and not accountable to an electorate either.

I agree that the EU Parliament needs to have more muscle - in lots of areas - though.

In theory they are supposed to be civil servants. In reality they appear to think of themselves as ministers in an EU government.

[RedJ]

Since the referendum ( I was not qualified to vote because I have lived on the European mainland too long) the EU has ;
 Agreed to build an army ( presumably a navy and airforce )
 Failed to comment on the imprisonment of politicians in Spain
  Taken a number of POLITICAL decisions within the Eurozone for the benefit of the common currency but not in the interests of non Eurozone members .   

Politicians were imprisoned in Spain because they illegally declared independence after a referendum that was illegally held.

Funny that, that people who committed illegal acts were put in prison.

[hoolahoop]

Since the referendum ( I was not qualified to vote because I have lived on the European mainland too long) the EU has ;
 Agreed to build an army ( presumably a navy and airforce )
 Failed to comment on the imprisonment of politicians in Spain
  Taken a number of POLITICAL decisions within the Eurozone for the benefit of the common currency but not in the interests of non Eurozone members .   

Deary me i have read your post and can see why there is do much confusion out there .
If an intelligent person like you thinks it's a great idea for the EU to potentially cede most of central and Eastern Europe and probably even Western Europe to a resurgent Russia worries me no end. This point people keep raising about an EU army is ridiculous ; we have worked hand in glove with all our European friends since the end of WW 2. Units in Poland, Germany, Latvia etc . Is not only necessary for their protection but also us . Norway , Sweden , Denmark , France etc .help us to protect our waters. Where the hell have you been ?

[The Red Baron]

Military co-operation in Europe is via NATO. IMO the talk of an EU army is dangerous because it plays into the hands of Trump and other isolationists in the USA.

I think it is unlikely to happen but it is another symptom of Commissioners getting too much power.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Since the referendum ( I was not qualified to vote because I have lived on the European mainland too long) the EU has ;
 Agreed to build an army ( presumably a navy and airforce )
 Failed to comment on the imprisonment of politicians in Spain
  Taken a number of POLITICAL decisions within the Eurozone for the benefit of the common currency but not in the interests of non Eurozone members .   

This is because over time the EU Commission has become far too powerful. Don't forget that Commissioners are unelected and so not accountable to an electorate. And the Parliament is too weak and divided to hold them in check.

Our civil service are unelected and not accountable to an electorate either.

I agree that the EU Parliament needs to have more muscle - in lots of areas - though.

In theory they are supposed to be civil servants. In reality they appear to think of themselves as ministers in an EU government.

That's because Ministers are part of the executive, as are EU Commissioners. And it's Ministers that are a government, so the Commissioners are quite right to think in those terms.

It's Britain that has the anomaly here as our Ministers are not only in the Executive but also in the Legislature. Most countries follow the Separation Of Powers as first delineated by Montesquieu in that they keep the Executive, Legislature and Judiciary completely separate as part of the checks and balances of government, in order to safeguard democracy.

The problem is then, that a lot of British people, who have only known the UK system and don't have any understanding of how other countries use the Separation Of Powers, then look at the EU - which uses that same model too - and decide that because it's not the same as the UK that it's wrong. Because most Britons think of the government as being Parliament, which it isn't.

[hoolahoop]

Military co-operation in Europe is via NATO. IMO the talk of an EU army is dangerous because it plays into the hands of Trump and other isolationists in the USA.

I think it is unlikely to happen but it is another symptom of Commissioners getting too much power.

Sweden, Austria, Cyprus, Finland, Ireland and Malta are the only EU states which are not also Nato members. Historically, Sweden stayed out of Nato in solidarity with its neighbour Finland, which stayed out in order not to antagonise Russia. Sweden also has a tradition of neutrality going back to World War II.

So basically virtually ALL EU countries are in NATO , where is the danger when the USA doesn't sound all that reliable currently ?
What is dangerous about co-ordinating the following :-

Active Manpower - 1,823,000
Ships                      -  546
Aircraft                   -  2448
Battle tanks           -  7490
( all figures 2014 )

Organised with 2 nuclear powers ; we should be able to defend ourselves mutually and exclusively.

[The Red Baron]

Since the referendum ( I was not qualified to vote because I have lived on the European mainland too long) the EU has ;
 Agreed to build an army ( presumably a navy and airforce )
 Failed to comment on the imprisonment of politicians in Spain
  Taken a number of POLITICAL decisions within the Eurozone for the benefit of the common currency but not in the interests of non Eurozone members .   

This is because over time the EU Commission has become far too powerful. Don't forget that Commissioners are unelected and so not accountable to an electorate. And the Parliament is too weak and divided to hold them in check.

Our civil service are unelected and not accountable to an electorate either.

I agree that the EU Parliament needs to have more muscle - in lots of areas - though.

In theory they are supposed to be civil servants. In reality they appear to think of themselves as ministers in an EU government.

That's because Ministers are part of the executive, as are EU Commissioners. And it's Ministers that are a government, so the Commissioners are quite right to think in those terms.

It's Britain that has the anomaly here as our Ministers are not only in the Executive but also in the Legislature. Most countries follow the Separation Of Powers as first delineated by Montesquieu in that they keep the Executive, Legislature and Judiciary completely separate as part of the checks and balances of government, in order to safeguard democracy.

The problem is then, that a lot of British people, who have only known the UK system and don't have any understanding of how other countries use the Separation Of Powers, then look at the EU - which uses that same model too - and decide that because it's not the same as the UK that it's wrong. Because most Britons think of the government as being Parliament, which it isn't.

I'm glad that you agree with me that EU Commissioners see themselves as ministers not Civil Servants. So the question is then... when did we vote for this "EU Government?"

[Dutch Uncle]

Military co-operation in Europe is via NATO. IMO the talk of an EU army is dangerous because it plays into the hands of Trump and other isolationists in the USA.

I think it is unlikely to happen but it is another symptom of Commissioners getting too much power.

Unfortunately the EU setting up its own Military Structure is not new, although cooperation with NATO is part of its policy.

The European Defence Agency (EDA) is an agency of the EU based in Brussels. Set up on 12 July 2004, it is a Common Foreign and Security Policy (CFSP) body reporting to the Council of the European Union. Its primary role is to foster European defence cooperation.

They have a number of HQs and units (Land, Air and Maritime) including The European Corps, often shortened as Eurocorps, is an army corps of approximately 1,000 soldiers stationed in Strasbourg, France. Based in the French city of Strasbourg, the corps had its headquarters established in May 1992, activated in October 1993 and declared operational in 1995. The nucleus of the force is the Franco-German Brigade, established in 1987.

More here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_European_Union

IMHO these initiatives reduce the political unity and effectiveness of NATO if not its Operational value.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I'm glad that you agree with me that EU Commissioners see themselves as ministers not Civil Servants. So the question is then... when did we vote for this "EU Government?"

Ministers are part of the Executive, like the civil servants in this country. When did we vote for our civil servants? The fact that the top Ministers in this country just happen to be MPs means that it's the UK system where the Ministers face the electorate that's the anomaly, not the EU. system.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Glyn’s bang on. We are an anomaly.

Look at the USA. Who voted in Rex Tillerson as Secretary of State? Or Steve Mnuchin as Treasury Secretary?

EU Cimmissioners are selected by the heads of RU national governments. If you don’t like the Commissioner(s) that your country chooses, vote for a different national Govt. 

[Glyn_Wigley]

Glyn’s bang on. We are an anomaly.

Look at the USA. Who voted in Rex Tillerson as Secretary of State? Or Steve Mnuchin as Treasury Secretary?

EU Cimmissioners are selected by the heads of RU national governments. If you don’t like the Commissioner(s) that your country chooses, vote for a different national Govt. 

The proposed Commissioners are only nominated by the various governments. The nominations are scrutinised and confirmed by the EU Parliament...who we vote for.

[The Red Baron]

Glyn’s bang on. We are an anomaly.

Look at the USA. Who voted in Rex Tillerson as Secretary of State? Or Steve Mnuchin as Treasury Secretary?

EU Cimmissioners are selected by the heads of RU national governments. If you don’t like the Commissioner(s) that your country chooses, vote for a different national Govt. 

That's rather different from being able to vote for the President of the USA, who then appoints ministers. And I hardly think people in any country think "this government appointed X as an EU Commissioner- so I'm voting for the other lot."

[Glyn_Wigley]

Apart from the electorate of Maidenhead, we don't even get to vote for the person who appoints our Ministers!