Brexit Negotiations

[The Red Baron]

Apart from the electorate of Maidenhead, we don't even get to vote for the person who appoints our Ministers!

Those ministers are much more accountable to MPs than EU Commissioners appear to be. Indeed, the EU Parliament appears to have done a very poor job of preventing the Commission from acquiring greater power. Of course, a lot of MEPs might think that was a good thing...

[Glyn_Wigley]

Well, they really brought that bare-faced liar David Davis to account, didn't they!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Talking about ministers being accountable for their actions, looks like there’s one here trying to walk back the clusterf**k that he’s led us into.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-brexit-stay-eu-soft-brexit-farage-2018-1

[The Red Baron]

Well, they really brought that bare-faced liar David Davis to account, didn't they!

That's because the Opposition is useless. You only have to look at the opinion polls. With the Government in trouble on so many fronts, Labour should be streets ahead.

They've missed more open goals than Rovers strikers have this season!

[The Red Baron]

Talking about ministers being accountable for their actions, looks like there’s one here trying to walk back the clusterf**k that he’s led us into.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-brexit-stay-eu-soft-brexit-farage-2018-1

While it doesn't sit well coming from one of the main protagonists in the Leave campaign, I actually agree with the point made here. If we're going to end up staying in the SM and CU we might as well go the whole hog and stay in the EU. Perhaps that's where Referendum 2 comes in?

Although if he really thinks May is incapable of securing a decent deal, shouldn't he resign from her government?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Well, they really brought that bare-faced liar David Davis to account, didn't they!

That's because the Opposition is useless. You only have to look at the opinion polls. With the Government in trouble on so many fronts, Labour should be streets ahead.

They've missed more open goals than Rovers strikers have this season!

WTF are you talking about? The Select Committee which supposedly holds Ministers to account is made up of MPs of all parties!

[The Red Baron]

The House of Commons also holds ministers to account. Davis got off lightly because the Opposition, for whatever reason, chose not to pursue the issue.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Labour didn’t pursue it because Corbyn is still riding both horses. Hes managed to persuade Remainers that he’s anti Brexit and Leavers that he’s pro Brexit.

That worked spectacularly well last June, but sooner or later he’s going to have to come down on one side or the other.

It’ll be interesting...

[wilts rover]

Well if he does Billy he has this to consider.

If all the GE constituencies that had voted leave in the 2016 referendum voted Tory in the 2017 GE and all those who voted remain voted Labour - the Tories would have a majority of 150 seats.

Focuses the mind if you are looking to win the next election - and you think it might be happening in the next few months.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts

I don’t doubt that there’s sense behind Corbyn’s stance. For now.

Labour will take a hit whichever side he finally comes down on. For now, it makes sense for him to keep schtum and avoid the issue. But that won’t wash in the next Election (if it happens pre March 2019).  And it won’t wash if there’s no Election before then, because he’ll have a vote in the House to handle.

Of course though, Corbyn, being a man of principle rather than an evasive politician will be relishing the moment when he tells us what he really thinks about the EU.

[hoolahoop]

Wilts

I don’t doubt that there’s sense behind Corbyn’s stance. For now.

Labour will take a hit whichever side he finally comes down on. For now, it makes sense for him to keep schtum and avoid the issue. But that won’t wash in the next Election (if it happens pre March 2019).  And it won’t wash if there’s no Election before then, because he’ll have a vote in the House to handle.

Of course though, Corbyn, being a man of principle rather than an evasive politician will be relishing the moment when he tells us what he really thinks about the EU.

I agree but would you risk the hit now by persuing further that soft Lib/Dem and Tory " Remain " vote now whilst you and your Party are riding relatively  high or would you hope that the Maybot Government collapses spectacularly 6/9 or even 12 months down the line ?

I suspect it will be far too late by then , that the window of opportunity will be gone and Labour will be held in as much contempt as the Tory Party when our country tilts on the edge of the cliff .
Will it be all about rescuing the economy by then and would the Tories still be considered the best party to make the best out of the nuclear economic winter that the nation will be faced with ?
Standing on that edge will be what remains of the Union movement and our students/young  who all seem to have taken an " it will be alright in the end " pill though they will bear the brunt,.
 These people would be taking to the streets in any other country but no they all sit on their hands whilst this government drives through not only the monster that is Brexit but ......austerity too with its total disregard for the safety and well-being of our weak, deprived, disabled and desperately poor . What society have we got here and what are we trying to keep in place ?
1 just 1 bloody amendment has been lost as the Brexit Bill floats inexorably on through Parliament to the Lords. Now perhaps I'm missing something here but when can anyone of us oldies on here remember a bill of such complexity floating through the Commons so easily and swiftly by a government with such a slim majority. Not ONE sectoral impact has been available to be thrashed out in detail !

Have our politicians given up completely , do they just wave things through.....Henry V111 powers , loopholes here and there on working practises, rights of our citizens, restitution of devolved government powers from Brussels to Westminster ( the power grab )  in fact the fooking lot  ! 
What have we as a nation become and where has there been any effective opposition in numbers ?
" Leavers " - you too should be angry at the lack of openness and what's more  preparedness in this whole exercise it's beyond pathetic .

[BillyStubbsTears]

And the evidence of the effect of Brexit continues to mount.

https://mobile.twitter.com/jdportes/status/956824679213404160

[SydneyRover]

Brexit should be view as black ice can't see it but you know there's going to be a mess if you drive into it. The tide is turning and it makes sense to vote on something along with the facts.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/26/britons-favour-second-referendum-brexit-icm-poll

[hoolahoop]

And the evidence of the effect of Brexit continues to mount.

https://mobile.twitter.com/jdportes/status/956824679213404160

Yes it's all going swimmingly , anyone for a 2nd Referendum yet ? Seems the tide is finally turning.......

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/26/britons-favour-second-referendum-brexit-icm-poll#img-1

[wilts rover]

It's interesting looking at the responses to the survey questions. Overwhelmingly people think Brexit will be bad for the economy - but still very few have changed their minds on it. There has been a very small change in most areas towards remain (54 - 46 in the north, that did surprise me) but not that any reverse of referendum would be a given.

This piece on people's attitudes is worth reading:
https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/remainers-need-to-tell-better-story-brexit-european-union

[Filo]

And the evidence of the effect of Brexit continues to mount.

https://mobile.twitter.com/jdportes/status/956824679213404160

Like someone replied on that tweet, it would be interesting to see every other individual country vs OECD growth, that way a better comparison could be made

[Sprotyrover]

The longer this saga drags on the more I tilt towards leave,I just love it when a French /Belgian Politician tells us How we are going to be punished.
Some of those EU countries are bricking themselves since they have come to see the Headlights of the Car looming towards them and they will have to stump up £ Billions to fill the void wen we leave.
Oh by the way Russia is not a threat to the UK, lets reduce the Army by half and use the savings to fund health.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Filo

All of ten seconds on Google.

http://www.oecd.org/std/na/QNA-GDP-Growth-Q317-Eng.pdf

It would be interesting if people, when they see data that they don’t like, would look into the issue themselves, instead of saying “it’d be interesting to see other data which supports what I think.”

That OECD report (with the detailed info that the person on Twitter said it would be “interesting” to see) is out there for anyone to find. And the results ARE interesting.

In summer 2016, our growth was, and had been for a while, higher than USA, France, Italy, Japan, Canada, the OECD as a whole and the Euro Area. We were just about on a par with Germany.

Between summer 2016 and winter 2017, EVERY SINGLE ONE of those countries and groups saw their growth increase, strongly in most cases. Because the global economy is going through a boom. We saw our economic growth drop.

Have a think why. It’s interesting.

You can keep on sticking your head in the sand and hoping that it’s not happening Filo. But it IS happening. Now. Indisputably. We are not doing anywhere near as well as the rest of the developed world since the Brexit vote. We (actually, “you”) have chosen to make us poorer than we should have been.

[Filo]

BST, I think you misunderstood what I was saying, you posted a graph to back up what you have been saying, to support that you should have also posted graphs of everyother individual major country vs OECD Growth to provide balance to your arguement

[BillyStubbsTears]

Filo

The data for all the other major countries is there in that second link I posted. Page 2. It’s not graphed up but you can read it for yourself.

And here’s the problem. That comment implies that the way the original data was presented is trying to pull the wool over your eyes. That’s the Zeitgeist at the moment. If folk see someone present data that contradicts my opinions, they assume that they are dissembling and being economical with the truth and putting the best spin on that data. So they discount it.

But this is a perfect example of what you COULD do. In the time it took that person to write the “wouldn’t it be interesting” tweet, they could have gone on Google and found the OECD report that I posted. Which clearly shows a common trend. EVERY major economy is seeing its growth strengthen over the past 18 months - apart from the UK which has seen its growth rate go from top of the list to bottom.

10 second’s effort to find the information you need. Assuming you actually DO want to see that information, because it makes VERY “interesting” reading for Brexit supporters.

[hoolahoop]

Filo

The data for all the other major countries is there in that second link I posted. Page 2. It’s not graphed up but you can read it for yourself.

And here’s the problem. That comment implies that the way the original data was presented is trying to pull the wool over your eyes. That’s the Zeitgeist at the moment. If folk see someone present data that contradicts my opinions, they assume that they are dissembling and being economical with the truth and putting the best spin on that data. So they discount it.

But this is a perfect example of what you COULD do. In the time it took that person to write the “wouldn’t it be interesting” tweet, they could have gone on Google and found the OECD report that I posted. Which clearly shows a common trend. EVERY major economy is seeing its growth strengthen over the past 18 months - apart from the UK which has seen its growth rate go from top of the list to bottom.

10 second’s effort to find the information you need.

Assuming you actually DO want to see that information, because it makes VERY “interesting” reading for Brexit supporters.

Isn't that the problem A) Brexiters don't want to recognise these statistics at all *OØ8

[Glyn_Wigley]

Inconvenient truths just get the immediate label of 'Project Fear'.

[Filo]

Well thats three of you that have suggested something that was n't there. All I was saying is if you posted a graph supporting your stance you should back that up with similar data from other Countries, the trouble was taken to find that graph, surely a couple of seconds more could have produced other graphs to enhance your stance

[BillyStubbsTears]

Filo

I don’t understand your issue about a graph. A graph shows data in graphical form. The data you are asking for is in that OECD link, in the second table of page 2. Why does it matter whether it’s in a graph?

[BillyStubbsTears]

https://www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/alexspence/heres-a-leaked-whatsapp-chat-showing-tory-leavers-confusion?utm_term=4ldqpgm&bftwuk=&__twitter_impression=true

Jesus f**king wept! Here’s a prominent Brexit-supporting Tory MP admitting that she hasn’t got a f**king clue on one of THE fundamental issues connected with Brexit.

Even by the standards of this Govt and the Brexit side, this is almost beyond farcical.
What the f**k WAS she arguing for when she was thumping the tub for Brexit 19 months back?

[bpoolrover]

I see trump has said he would have played hardball with the eu in the negotiations, is he right?

[BillyStubbsTears]

If you’re going to play hardball, you’d better
a) have a really good hand or
b) be a fantastic bluffer.

We have got a shit hand. As we’ll find out through the rest of 2018.

Trump is a shit bluffer. As we’ll find out in the rest of 2018.

Save this and check it this time next year.

[Glyn_Wigley]

It's easy to play hardball when you've got an economy as big as the US has though.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Filo

Here's a graph summarising the data in that OECD report. It's a bit messy to show all the data on one grpah (happy to do so if you want it). So what I've done, to cut to the chase is to look at the differences in growth rates between mid 2016 (date of the Brexit vote) and the last data in that report (summer or autumn 2017).



Quite a story, no? Every single major economy and economic grouping in the world is seeing a major boost in economic growth. Apart from us, which has seen our economic growth decline.

But nevermind, eh? We were right not to trust all those economics experts who predicted this back in Spring 2016.

[Sprotyrover]

Well the most powerful man on the planet, somebody who does happen a bit about the generation of wealth thinks Brexit is a good idea, unlike his predecessor Obama who had tried bullying tactics to try and make us stay in.
Mark my words if Trump had said anything negative about Brexit all of the amateur statististions on here would have been bellowing like Castrated Hippos !