Brexit Negotiations

[Glyn_Wigley]

Billy I accept everything you say about people being misled, and that's part of the problem, there are older generations that feel they  were misled into voting to join something that morphed into something completely different to what they voted to join.
   They are the ones that were lied to, and have had to accept everything since, not all bad admittedly, but not what they voted for.
   The big difference is , their generation respected the vote once declared, something this generation seem incapable of doing.
  And the politicians  who disagreed, joined forces in parliament to make joining work, something else the present generation could learn.

The people who voted in the 1975 referendum didn't vote to join anything, they voted for the status quo as it was at that time, which is what they got. Where the UK went in the EU after that was decided by the successive UK governments that were also voted for by the British public.

I am not sure that I agree with that but maybe I misunderstand what you are saying

In 75 I voted against joining the Common Market (quite ironic given I am a remainer now) but it seemed that the Vote was largely made on Party Lines and so it was YEARS and I do mean YEARS till I ever met anyone that voted YES to joining

So I believe I voted NOT to join the Common Market. Ironically the Tories won that Vote and since then half of them have pulled themselves apart time and again trying to get us back out and finally they have done it - and again ironically a lot of Labour Party voters helped them as they voted "Leave"

We joined on Jan 1st 1973 so you certainly didn't vote not to join anything, we were already in it.

And it certainly wasn't fought on party lines - it was the only time I can remember that Cabinet Collective Responsibility was suspended, so that Government Ministers were able to stand on opposing sides of the argument and disagree with one another. Members of other parties were allowed to stand on opposing sides too - it was as far removed from being on party lines as you could get.

How do you make it that the Tories 'won' the vote? Both Wilson and Heath were on the 'Yes' side, and Wilson was PM at the time.

[BillyStubbsTears]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42977967  and now ignore the report of what will happen as it doesn't include the guesswork outcome of what we most likely can't have

Bloody hell! I’ve just realised that when this information was leaked last week, the wrong spin was put on it. They said that the Treasurey analysis was that by 2030, we’d have lost 2-8% of cumulative economic output by 2030 depending on the exact Brexit relationship.

That was wrong. What the data actual says is that our GDP PER YEAR will be 2-8% lower by 2030.

That’s a totally different sum. That means that we’ll have lower GDP EVERY YEAR and getting steadily worse from now to 2030.

Fag packet numbers. This means that over the next 12 years, we’ll lose £250bn of output even if we get a good deal with the EU. If we get a bad deal and go into WTO rules, which is what Rees-Mogg, Redwood and Johnson have said we should do, we’ll lose ONE TRILLION POUNDS of economic output by 2030.

One trillion f**king quid. That’s the equivalent of a cheque for £40,000 pushed through the letterbox of every door in the country.

Ever get the feeling you’ve been had, Brexiters?

[Donnywolf]

Billy I accept everything you say about people being misled, and that's part of the problem, there are older generations that feel they  were misled into voting to join something that morphed into something completely different to what they voted to join.
   They are the ones that were lied to, and have had to accept everything since, not all bad admittedly, but not what they voted for.
   The big difference is , their generation respected the vote once declared, something this generation seem incapable of doing.
  And the politicians  who disagreed, joined forces in parliament to make joining work, something else the present generation could learn.

The people who voted in the 1975 referendum didn't vote to join anything, they voted for the status quo as it was at that time, which is what they got. Where the UK went in the EU after that was decided by the successive UK governments that were also voted for by the British public.

I am not sure that I agree with that but maybe I misunderstand what you are saying

In 75 I voted against joining the Common Market (quite ironic given I am a remainer now) but it seemed that the Vote was largely made on Party Lines and so it was YEARS and I do mean YEARS till I ever met anyone that voted YES to joining

So I believe I voted NOT to join the Common Market. Ironically the Tories won that Vote and since then half of them have pulled themselves apart time and again trying to get us back out and finally they have done it - and again ironically a lot of Labour Party voters helped them as they voted "Leave"

We joined on Jan 1st 1973 so you certainly didn't vote not to join anything, we were already in it.

And it certainly wasn't fought on party lines - it was the only time I can remember that Cabinet Collective Responsibility was suspended, so that Government Ministers were able to stand on opposing sides of the argument and disagree with one another. Members of other parties were allowed to stand on opposing sides too - it was as far removed from being on party lines as you could get.

How do you make it that the Tories 'won' the vote? Both Wilson and Heath were on the 'Yes' side, and Wilson was PM at the time.

Well thanks for the reminders. I was unclear about how we got where we got and when but reading up I see now we were blocked from entering twice by De Gaulle (yes remember that) but that we then went "in" without a Referendum in 73 BUT with the proviso that we would be allowed a Referendum in 2 years to see whether we wanted to remain ...and of course we did ! Hence my mis remembering. We were IN as you say but got the Referendum to ask whether we wanted to "Stay"

When I said split on Party Lines I meant that the ordinary voters I spoke to at the time at the time and every person I ever spoke to for maybe 10 years said they voted to "leave". This is also borne out by the fact that only something like 6 of 47 Union Block Votes wanted to remain - so the rank and file ordinary "joes" (like I was and am) were mostly split on Party Political lines

The Labour Party were the only Party who did not have a fixed position. The Tories supported the "Stay" option as did the Liberals and the likes of Plaid Cymru and the others were in the "Leave" camp

The Labour Membership at the Labour Conference of 75 actually voted "almost" 2 to 1 to nail their "Leave" colours to the mast and force the Party to stand in the "Leave" camp but as this item shows it was not quite enough. So when I said the Tories "won" I meant they supported "Stay" and carried the day and although there was a massive majority within the Labour Party to "leave" they stayed neutral as a  Party so did not carry the Day

    ========================================================================================



Conservative and Liberal Party conferences consistently supported EC membership for several years up to 1975. At a Labour Party conference on 26 April 1975, the Labour membership rejected continuing EC membership by almost a 2:1 margin. Tony Benn said, ‘We have had a conference and the decision is clear ... It is very clear that there now must be a move for the Labour Party to campaign’. The majority of the Labour Party leadership was strongly for continuing membership, and the margin of the party vote was not a surprise, since only seven of forty-six trade unions present at the conference supported EC membership. Prior to the conference, the party had decided that if the conference voted by a margin of 2:1 or more in favour of a particular option, it would then support that position in the referendum campaign. Otherwise, the ‘party machine’ would remain neutral. Therefore, the Labour Party itself did not campaign on either side.

=============================================================================================

Anyway the whole thing bores the hell out of me but was interesting to see the Tories took us in and have been fighting about our Membership of "Europe" ever since and will do after we have left - and yet the rank and file Labour voters seem to have voted to leave in 1975 and in the latest Referendum as well (whereas I was totally opposed to Joining and Staying in in my early days but bucked the trend by voting remain this time round)

[selby]

  It is not worth getting your knickers in a twist about, the only certain result of all this,is that we cannot alter anything, it is up to the politicians to make sense of it all from now on.
  History will mark Cameron down as the worst decision maker we ever had as a prime minister.

[idler]

I have never been a Tory voter but voted remain in 1975 and stay in a trading block. I voted out of a federal looking Europe last time.
A debate on the lines of the one in 75 might have brought a lot more clarity and possibly a different outcome.
It didn't take Cameron long to crawl out of the hole that he had dug himself into and go back on his promise to see the job through whatever the outcome. Him and George certainly helped the Brexit campaign with their austerity brainwave.

[BillyStubbsTears]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43001931

Jesus wept. Barnier and Davis are like an exasperated parent and a child who is slow on the uptake then has a tantrum.

How many times does Barnier have to state the bleeding obvious?

1) If Britain wants a transition period where we retain all the benefits of trade with Europe, then Europe insists that we keep our side of the deal in the rights of people coming from the EU to Britain.

2) If Britain wants a Hard Brexit then there are going to be serious implications for the Irish border.

These things aren’t hard to grasp. They are bleeding obvious to anyone who spends 5 minutes looking at the issues. Yet Barnier is having to repeat them week after week after week, while Davis moans that he’s not being fair and WHY, WHY, WHY can’t we have the deal that WE want and I HATE YOU!!!

[Glyn_Wigley]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43001931

Jesus wept. Barnier and Davis are like an exasperated parent and a child who is slow on the uptake then has a tantrum.

How many times does Barnier have to state the bleeding obvious?

1) If Britain wants a transition period where we retain all the benefits of trade with Europe, then Europe insists that we keep our side of the deal in the rights of people coming from the EU to Britain.

2) If Britain wants a Hard Brexit then there are going to be serious implications for the Irish border.

These things aren’t hard to grasp. They are bleeding obvious to anyone who spends 5 minutes looking at the issues. Yet Barnier is having to repeat them week after week after week, while Davis moans that he’s not being fair and WHY, WHY, WHY can’t we have the deal that WE want and I HATE YOU!!!

The EU have been consistent on the consequences of the UK leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union all along, making it clear well before the referendum. I myself kept repeating it on this forum but kept being told by the Brexiteer's on here that because they didn't know what was going to happen I couldn't possibly know either. Well, guess what?

Why do people still continue to believe the Brexiteer's fairy stories about only having to wave a magic wand and we'll get whatever we want just because we want it? It gets more and more transparent and flimsy every time it's trotted out. We were told the EU would fall over themselves to give us what we want because they need our trade more than we need theirs. If that was true, we'd surely have had some mutually beneficial agreements by now instead of the feck all we've currently got!

[Dagenham Rover]

Barnier  my way or the highway.  I will punish you if you don't agree to everything I demand theres no negotiation this idiot just demands      
 wait for it................

[BillyStubbsTears]

Dagenham

As I’ve said before, the art of negotiating is knowing your hand and playing it as hard as you can.

What do you want Barnier to do? See it from our side?

[The Red Baron]

I realise Barnier is trying to concentrate minds in the UK Government, but I can't help thinking his public utterances are playing into the hands of the Hard Brexiteers. Perhaps he should stick to negotiating behind closed doors.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Or perhaps he’s the only grown up telling the UK public what the situation actually is.

Have a think about where we are TRB. You are saying that Barnier making public statements of blindingly obvious facts is playing into the hands  of idiots and fantasists who would do irreparable harm to the country. Just have a think about what that comment implies.

[The Red Baron]

It would help matters a great deal if the Government was to spell out what it is expecting to achieve. I thought they were planning to do that this week but nothing seems to be forthcoming.

To that extent, I can understand Barnier's frustrations. But he is giving the impression that the EU wants to make no concessions. That plays to those who say "if they won't make any, why should we?"

[turnbull for england]

Surely it's because we are leaving them?  Or is that over simplifying things(genuine question)

[wilts rover]

Errr, Barnier has already made a concession. We said we were going to leave the EU in March 2019 but wanted a transition/implementation period for some time after it. He said fair enough.

Why Davies has now decided that this mean the UK can have different rules accessing the EU to the 27 remaining members seems bonkers to me - and very worrying to many people in Northern Ireland - so perhaps someone can explain it?

[Filo]

Errr, Barnier has already made a concession. We said we were going to leave the EU in March 2019 but wanted a transition/implementation period for some time after it. He said fair enough.

Why Davies has now decided that this mean the UK can have different rules accessing the EU to the 27 remaining members seems bonkers to me - and very worrying to many people in Northern Ireland - so perhaps someone can explain it?

He also said that any new laws implemented during that transition period we had to abide by, but have no say, and also we can't enter any trade deals with anyone else during that period.

Looks to me like he wants to stick the boot in any way he can

[RedJ]

What, he wants us to stick to rules that something we want to be a part of and benefit from for a while longer will be implementing? the bas**rd.

[Glyn_Wigley]

What, he wants us to stick to rules that something we want to be a part of and benefit from for a while longer will be implementing? the bas**rd.

Exactly. The EU has been consistent from the beginning that the rules of the existing infrastructure will be adhered to and that if we left, we left. The UK might get EC Preference status, the same as some other non-EU countries get  (if we don't completely piss them off by the way we're going about this). Why the hell should the EU create brand new procedures that they don't give to existing non-members of the EU just for a country that has stuck two fingers up to them? We voted for the UK to leave, not them. It's up to us to work things out, not them.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Barnier  my way or the highway.  I will punish you if you don't agree to everything I demand theres no negotiation this idiot just demands      
 wait for it................

Really? What's Barnier demanding then? I haven't heard of any demands he's made at all, so I'd really like to know what you've heard.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

1) The Government CANNOT publicly state what its aim is in the negotiation. Because it’s aim is to keep the Tory party from splitting. No more no less. Everything else is secondary. So it pushes this line that we want all the benefits of trade with the EU whilst also taking back control from the EU. But that’s not a negotiating aim. It is a pie in the sky statement to appease both wings of the Tory party.

2) Negotiating is not necessarily about conceding anything. It’s about playing hard for your side. Barnier holds ALL the cards in this negotiation. Why the hell should he concede anything? If we are so ignorant and stupid that we see that as a provocation to jumpnoff the cliff into a Hard Brexit, that’s not his fault. Or his problem.

[idler]

Whilst politicians put their own or their parties interests before those of the country we have no chance.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Filo.

It’s that attitude that is what I’m talking about, confusing hard negotiating with provocation.

We want something out of the Transition.  That is the benefit of continued totally free and inferred access to European markets.

Isn’t fair for Barnier to say, “Ok. If that’s what you want, we’ll give you that. But we want you to abide by ALL the rules of the Single Market and Customs Union.”

That’s not sticking the boot in. It’s setting out bleeding obvious rules. It’s a sign of the rampant anti-EU spirit among Brexiteers that this is seen as somehow unfair.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Filo. On the new rules, AARRRGH!

It’s really simple. WE have decided to leave the EU next March. US. Not the EU.

WE have decided to opt out of being involved in setting the EU rules. But we want all the benefits of trade with the EU. Therefore the EU will expect us to follow ALL the rules of the SM. Including the ones that will be set during the Transition period after WE have decided to leave the EU.

What is so difficult to accept about that? It’s intelligent people like you being unable to see the logic from the other side that has driven us into this clusterf**k of a situation. 

[Bentley Bullet]

It looks to me like the EU is exploiting the fact that our country is split, with almost half of the voters having spat the dummy out because of the result, and many of them actually sympathising with the EU more than the UK!

A successful Brexit might be impossible because of such a divided approach.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yes B.B.  of course. Clever boy.

[Bentley Bullet]

Thanks BST, always glad to help.

[Sprotyrover]

The one thing Barrnier and his cronies has hugely underestimated is the British People, who are well and truly naffedd off at some bourgeoisie Twit from Benelux telling us off like a school master. apart from a few 'Coffee Aunities' such as those on this website I think he will find the general consensus of British opinion is 'F**k em.
It's time to get the Artillery boots out and kick ass.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sporty.

Yeah. What a Kitson that Barnier is. Telling us there might be some rules that we’ll need to follow if we’re going to be able to trade with the EU after we leave. Who the f**k does he think he is?

If only we had an aircraft carrier with some planes on it, we should invade the bas**rds and put them in their place.

Mind, the Benelux countries would be a bit pissed off if we invaded them, given that Barnier is French. Still, the f**kers are all the same aren’t they?

[Sprotyrover]

Sporty.

Yeah. What a Kitson that Barnier is. Telling us there might be some rules that we’ll need to follow if we’re going to be able to trade with the EU after we leave. Who the f**k does he think he is?

If only we had an aircraft carrier with some planes on it, we should invade the bas**rds and put them in their place.

Mind, the Benelux countries would be a bit pissed off if we invaded them, given that Barnier is French. Still, the f**kers are all the same aren’t they?

We have an armoured Division in Germany we don't have to do any Invading

[Sprotyrover]

And an Armoured Brigade in Estonia and armoured units in Poland.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Oh it’s Germany as well now is it? Not just Benelux and France?  Anyone else?