Brexit Negotiations

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby

I agree with all you say about the f**king mess that the Coalition Govt made of things. Have a look at what I was saying in here back in 2010. I despise Cameron and Osborne and Clegg (the latter most of all because he could have prevented Austerity but he signed up for it).

But I’m frankly baffled about how you draw a conclusion that this means that the Referendum vote was some sort of democratic triumph. You simply cannot say that the Leave side’s lies didn’t matter. That is patent, demonstrable nonsense. In the very week of the vote, a poll said that nearly 50% of the population believed that we would get £350m a week back from the EU if we left. Dominic Cumming who was running the Leave campaign has said that that lie was the clincher (he’s really, REALLY pleased with himself that he focussed voters’ minds on that lie and he’s written extensively on how he convinced the main Leave spokesmen to hammer on that point.) And just this week, a poll showed that 42% of voters think we will be better off economically once we leave.

Ask yourself this. If Johnson, Gove and Farage has repeatedly said that the £350m was a lie and that the consensus among the overwhelming majority of economists was that by the end of the 2020s, Brexit will cost us something between £4000-£12000 each, do you really believe that 52% would have voted Leave?

Leave voters were conned by a very sophisticated group of right wingers into making a choice that will have awful consequences for the very people who voted Leave. THEY are the ones who will bear the brunt of the result (or actually, no: the highest Leave voters were over 65. They are not going to be here in a few years and it’s their drandkids in Denaby and Sunderland who are going to be left with the consequences.) Saying that the result was a binding democratic choice makes a mockery of democracy.

[Sprotyrover]

Gaping hole in the EU budget? Even by your standards of overinflating our importance, that’s a spectacularly daft comment.

Our net contribution for 2017 according to the ONS works out at about £8bn.

The GDP of the EU minus the U.K. was about £12trillion.

So our contribution was about 0.06-0.07% of the EU’s total output.

Put it another way, our contribution equates to about half the price of a packet of chewing gum per week for every person in the EU. (Population of EU minus UK is about 450million. £8bn/450million/52 week=34p per person per week.)

Put it yet another way, since the Brexit vote, the EU economy has grown by about 0.5% per year faster than ours. That 0.5% per year over 21 months equates to about 13 times our annual net contribution. (0.5% x £12tr x 21/12 = £105bn.) Just from the extra growth that they’ve had over and above our economy.

I suspect they’ll cope.

They are looking for members to stump up £180 billion towards the Green agenda by 2020 ,they want members to cough up 30 billion extra in contributions a year to cover increased defence spending and Policing the gaping hole which is the threat of mass illegal immigration via the south.
Put the graphs away and start reading the news!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sproty.
I give up. You are beyond hopeless.

The EU didn’t invent global warming. The need to invest in de-carboning won’t vanish when we leave the EU.

The €30bn increase in defence funding across Europe is the sum of decisions being made by individual bloody Governments, not a dictat from Brussels. Us leaving the EU doesn’t make a blind bit of difference to the ability of other countries to pay for either the defence costs or the green costs because we’re not paying for it, other than for the decisions that our own Govt has taken.

You’re constantly firing out these comments about what happens in Europe, attributing every one of them to the EU and then claiming that Europe will go bust when we leave. It’s so far beyond stupid, that there is literally no possible way of having a meaningful discussion with you. It is horrifying that people like you whose view of Europe is based on such utter clueless nonsense have tipped us into Brexit.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Put the graphs away and start reading the news!

Yeah, the Sun, Daily Mail, Telegraph, Times and Express are always right and never lie about the EU!! Each and every one of their EU scare stories have come true!!

[Sprotyrover]

Us leaving the EU doesn’t make a blind bit of difference to the ability of other countries to pay for either the defence costs or the green costs because we’re not paying for it, other than for the decisions that our own Govt has taken.

That's  Spot on Billy you're beginning to see some sense.

[DonnyOsmond]

So you're fine if we make the same decisions as long as were making them and they aren't? Even if it costs us billions extra?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sproty

I see plenty of sense. Just none of it coming from you. What in the name of holy hell are you blathering on about this time?

[wilts rover]

Sproty you clearly know more about this than I do so a question for you.

This extra defence and green policy spending by the EU governments - where is it going to be spent? For example is there more or less likelihood that British defence companies will benefit from this £30 billion once we have left the EU?

[Bentley Bullet]

A mate of mine studies the horses. There's nothing, it seems, he doesn't know about them. His knowledge of horse racing is remarkably impressive. His whole life is dedicated to studying the form of horses involved in forthcoming races. Fellow punters are frequently asking him for tips.

I bought him a pint the other day - He was skint.

[Sprotyrover]

Sproty you clearly know more about this than I do so a question for you.

This extra defence and green policy spending by the EU governments - where is it going to be spent? For example is there more or less likelihood that British defence companies will benefit from this £30 billion once we have left the EU?

I doubt British companies would benefit, Leo 2 tanks are German ,we produce Apcs under licence,Raptors from the US seem to the the flavour of the day. Except for France who have their own Military Aircraft builder in Dasault.as for the stuff needed to patrol the south it would be Italy and France that would be building light Patrol asserts.
What they would expect is that we commit at least a third of our existing fleet to protect their shores and that costs billions in wear and tear and man hours.

[wilts rover]

So you would disagree with the findings in this https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR1700/RR1786/RAND_RR1786.pdf report then that concluded:

Financial concerns are important for both the UK and the EU. The UK MOD allocates 2.9 per cent of its budget  to  R&D,  equivalent  to  around  £1bn,  of  which  approximately  £0.4bn  goes  on  science  and  technology.  This  compares  to  total  European  defence  R&D  of  only  €2bn,  with  some  92  per  cent  of  that R&D occurring in France, Germany and the UK.

Looking more widely beyond defence, the UK possesses  a  prestigious  and  successful  academic  sect
or,  along  with  innovative  private-sector  firms  and  SMEs.  The  UK  is  dependent  on  the  EU  for  a  quarter 
of  all  public  research  funding:  some  £967m  in  2015,  or  over  £8.04bn  in  the  past  decade,  exceeded  only  by  the  £8.34bn  allocated  to  Germany.  This  includes  some  62  per  cent  of  funding  for  UK  nanotechnology  research,  for  instance.

The  UK  also  received €95m (12.5 per cent) of the €790m on offer for security funding in 2011–13, as well as €116m of  grants  for  aerospace  research  in  2007–12.

Indeed,  the  UK  has  overall  been  the  most  successful  member of the European Research Council (ERC) by
number of grants awarded, winning around a fifth of grants since 2007, some 636 compared to 441 in Germany.

Where Germany spends 2.85 per cent of its GDP on research, however, the UK only spends 1.63 per cent, meaning that its research institutes are more reliant on EU funding than German equivalents.

[selby]

  Billy, a lot has been made by Cable and his cronies about the split in voting in or out by the different age groups, and how people have been swayed by lies spread especially by the out brigade, swaying the older generations to vote out.
   What has not been pointed out, is they are the young generation that were sold a lie in 1975 and were not going to make the same mistake again.
   We voted for a common market, were refused another vote on two occasions to stop it morphing into something completely different, and now are faced with people shouting from the rooftops foul.
   Cake and eat it comes to mind.

[Sprotyrover]

Wilts why would I feel the need to read a 250 page tome on a subject I already am expert in.
So we get £400 million per annum for public research, where did you get the assumption from that the uk Government would not be honouring such grant post Brexit?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Wilts why would I feel the need to read a 250 page tome on a subject I already am expert in.
So we get £400 million per annum for public research, where did you get the assumption from that the uk Government would not be honouring such grant post Brexit?

According to the big red bus it's going to the NHS, not the MOD.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby

I still don't get it.

1) You voted Remain two years ago, but you are now saying that you'd vote Leave on principle if there was another referendum. I don't get what that principle is.

2) The Leave vote has effectively been hijacked by the right wing of the Tory party and interpreted as saying that we are now leaving the Single Market and Custom's Union which were the entirely logical extension of the original Common Market. That wasn't explicitly what people voted for in 2016. Even Nigel Farage was saying during the campaign that we could have the Norway option (Norway being effectively members of the Single Market, paying for that access, following the SM rules determined by the EU).

If there is a principle involved it is this. That we voted in 2016 with no idea of what we were voting for. We were told by many prominent Leave supporters that we could leave and have a Norway type arrangement. But what has happened since is that a small group of leading Tory politicians have decided that no such deal will be countenanced and Brexit will mean what they interpret it to mean. THAT is a massive breach of trust.

[selby]

  Billy, I had an idea what I was voting for, and I understood that it was to be a one off vote.
  Both sides told lies in equal measure, it is no good now picking out the lies that fall into line with your arguments and ignoring the ones told by the stay side, and the then government leaders, to strengthen your argument.
  I think I was intelligent enough to vote at the time for the result that I thought would be the best for my investments in property and shares, and the future wellbeing of my family, That's it I was following my instinct to be selfish.
   I took a surprising big hit the day after the vote, from a 19% profit to a 38% loss on that week alone in one day, followed by a period right up to the present day when it has never been easier to deal shares at a profit.   
   Again quite a surprise considering the profits of doom that were bandied around following the result.
   That's it mate, an honest admission of guilt for wanting to look after myself, and what I have worked hard for.
   But I lost the vote, a one off vote, a statement that the government kept repeating, because they and I never contemplated losing, and if you can't accept that the result went against us, and are not willing to work hard to make the best of it, and stand by the result, you don't understand what democracy stands for.
   To have another vote would be the worst thing this country  could ever do, whichever way the result went. It would open up politics to the mob that shouted the loudest, the politics of the Nazi party and the Bolsheviks, and I want no part of that.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby

I’ve no problem with anyone voting in their best interests. We all do that to some extent.

I do take issue with the claim that both sides lied in equal measure. That is demonstrably wrong. The key argument was about whether we as a country would be better or worse off outside the EU. And no-one outside a small group of right wing economists who gave you the 1981 recession, and a small group of right wing politicians is now claiming we’ll be better off. We’re already significantly worse off than we should be because our economy is stalling while the rest of the world is surging. And it’s that global surge which has boosted share prices. But as I said a few days ago, global booms never last. And we’ll see the full effect when that dies off.

[selby]

  Billy,so project feer, a government backed project I might add, was not based on lies then.
  And don't give me the battle bus theory, that was,  and was treated as a joke from day one.
  Not even the great unwashed would believe that a Tory government would spend any money on the N.H.S.
   Cable and Sourbrys constantly blaming the older generation is just antagonising the older generation to dig their heels in, and it was hardly their fault that the younger generation were not that bothered to vote, and went to a pop concert.
   Now they want to vote in theory, would they be bothered to is another matter.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nearly-half-of-britons-believe-vote-leaves-false-350-million-a-week-to-the-eu-claim-a7085016.html%3famp

[auckleyflyer]

Voted remain out of fear, if it happens again im out this time.
Let the bleeding hearts have another vote I think they'd be even more surprised this time! The angry mob convinces themselves its a travesty and surely any one with common sense will see it now!!?!!!? "Emperors new clothes"
If project fear failed what chance now!!!? Be careful what you wish for! Its a project that is doomed to failure and the eu will be consigned to history within a decade?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Auckley

Serious question. You voted Remain out of fear. Fear of what?

[Not Now Kato]

Auckley

Serious question. You voted Remain out of fear. Fear of what?

Indeed Billy.  I think a few people on here should seriously question the newspaper they're currently reading as most of the 'sound bites' they postulate come from ....
 
The Sun
The Mail
The Express
The Star
The Times
 
(tick as appropriate)

[Bentley Bullet]

NNK. What 'truth' paper do you read?

[Glyn_Wigley]

NNK. What 'truth' paper do you read?

Read this and make your own mind up.

https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/

[selby]

  I, would say that, anyone who is willing to vote out at the moment is showing a bit of individuality, and free thinking, seeing as they are voting against the propaganda and bias shown on T.V. every day by the B.B.C.
   I think I can make my own mind up, and have the one reason for changing my vote, if in the unlikely event there is another vote.
  That's in spite of reading the Telegraph, and occasionally the Financial Times online and watching the B.B.C. news.
   It was a one off vote, a statement made repeatedly by the then government, which both Cable had been a minister in and saubry was a member of that side of the house, a statement accepted by all parties and made clear to the electorate.
  To go back on that statement, would make every decision and every election look stupid. As i said before it would be the politics of the Nazi party and the Bolsheviks, have a vote and overturn it by threats and bullying.
  That statement " it is a one off vote" encouraged the biggest electorate turnout ever, The majority in England was over 2 million for out, Wales voted out, Scotland and N.Ireland in, but with a smaller electorate.
   The statement it is a one off vote was bandied about because the powers that be did not contemplate an out vote. It would not even be an issue if the stay vote had won.

[RedJ]

How is changing your mind when facts come to light making you look stupid, or every election before it look stupid? what rubbish that is.

[Not Now Kato]

NNK. What 'truth' paper do you read?

None of the above BB.  Whilst all papers have a bias of some sort, those above consistently distort the truth to a significant extent that is tantamount to lying to their readers.  Then again, you only have to look who owns them to see the 'hidden agenda'.  Sadly, many people don't and take what they print as fact.  When called to book they will happily print a retraction, usually in small print somewhere on or around page 7 - unlike the original distorted exaggerated headline on the front page.
 
Believe what you want in the above papers at your peril.

[Bentley Bullet]

With respect NNK, I didn't ask what papers you don't read, I asked what 'truth' paper do you read.

What's your view on the BBC pro-EU bias?

[Not Now Kato]

I don't read any daily newspapers as it happens BB, they all deceive to a greater or lesser extent, those I mentioned earlier in the thread tend to 'distort' the truth more than others IMO.
 
I do however follow events on the internet, which means regularly reading and comparing articles on the same subject from a number of on-line newsfeeds including papers such as the Telegraph, Guardian, Independent and especially the Financial Times.
 
I don't often bother with those I listed earlier in the thread as, from past experience, they are culpable for deliberately misleading articles with especially silly 'soundbite' headlines geared to get people emotive on a subject prior to them reading the article itself - a practice designed to avoid people questioning the content as they've already been led in a particular direction with said soundbites.  That these same soundbites are oft repeated in threads like this is testament to their effectiveness - then again, as Joseph Goebbels said

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

As for the BBC pro EU bias, I see that as some form of balance or alternative view to the anti EU bias expressed in the Sun, Mail, Times, Express etc.
 
The truth is out there if you bother to go and look for it.  Sadly, most people like to get their 'truth' from the newspaper they read.  I have a very good friend who, when discussing such important issues as Immigration, the NHS, politics etc frequently starts out by saying "my paper says.....".  He reads the Mail by the way.
 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Go on then. I’ll have a weary sigh and ask what this pro-EU bias is at the BBC?