Brexit Negotiations

[Glyn_Wigley]

May's doing it the wrong way round - trying to get her Cabinet to agree then taking it to the EU. She ought to run her next scenario past the EU first (in private) - and if the EU think it's a workable proposition then take to the Cabinet and give them an ultimatum, 'support this workable solution or resign'.

[RedJ]

If she did that they'd just laugh at her to be fair, especially Johnson.

[Glyn_Wigley]

If she did that they'd just laugh at her to be fair, especially Johnson.

In which case she should sack them and make it clear publicly why she has.

She's supposed to be a leader. If she started acting like one she might, just might, actually achieve something. The way she's acting at the moment just lets everybody push her around and we all end up going nowhere except in circles.

[The Red Baron]

Dr. No says no, so everyone back on the bus.

https://mobile.twitter.com/BIUK/status/1015201536211849217

[RedJ]

If she did that they'd just laugh at her to be fair, especially Johnson.

In which case she should sack them and make it clear publicly why she has.

She's supposed to be a leader. If she started acting like one she might, just might, actually achieve something. The way she's acting at the moment just lets everybody push her around and we all end up going nowhere except in circles.

Aye, she hasn't got the balls to do it.

[idler]

If she did that they'd just laugh at her to be fair, especially Johnson.

In which case she should sack them and make it clear publicly why she has.

She's supposed to be a leader. If she started acting like one she might, just might, actually achieve something. The way she's acting at the moment just lets everybody push her around and we all end up going nowhere except in circles.

Aye, she hasn't got the balls to do it.

No need to be sexist about it RedJ.😉

[RedJ]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/06/theresa-may-secures-approval-from-cabinet-to-negotiate-soft-brexit

[DonnyOsmond]

Smart decision.

[MachoMadness]

Great stuff. It's only taken us 2 f**king years to actually work out what our own position is. Now to get the EU to actually agree to it without the Tory government changing their minds again.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Be interesting to see how this holds together. In the past, when she’s agreed a sensible deal with one group, she’s then gone to meet with the swivel-eyed loon backbenchers and told them a totally different story.

Expect to see Rees-Mogg and Jenkin and Bone and the rest slavering at the mouth about betrayal of the Will of the People all through the weekend. And I’d expect them to be on the phone to Johnson and Gove to talk about a leadership challenge.

[idler]

The problem is that people voting for Brexit expected a grown up responsible negotiation about leaving not this circus.
The result was immediately hijacked by idiots and hardliners putting words in people's mouths.

[bpoolrover]

I think Reece mogg etc. Will agree to this reluctantly any deal to leave the eu will pretty much guarantee they win the next election or if not win be in the same position as they are now, a no  deal would prob see them lose

[BillyStubbsTears]

The problem is that people voting for Brexit expected a grown up responsible negotiation about leaving not this circus.
The result was immediately hijacked by idiots and hardliners putting words in people's mouths.

You’re shitting me, right?

You expected a grown up negotiation?

When the people who brought you Brexit had said repeatedly during the campaign:

1) There would be a £350m/week Brexit Bonus.
2) Turkey was about to join the EU and we’d be liable for 80m Turks landing on British shores if we didn’t leave.
3) There’d be no problem sorting out the Irish border problem.
4) The EU wouldn’t bargain hard against us because...well, because.
5) That the UK electorate was tired of listening to experts, and that experts who supported Remain were like 1930s German experts who supported Hitler.

You HEARD them say these things repeatedly. You KNOW that they were bullshit and lies. You knew THEN that they were bullshit and lies.

Why did you expect that the people who had bullshitted and lied to you would suddenly start negotiating like grown-ups?

YOU voted us into this f**k up. You were being told at the time that the Brexit cheerleaders wouldn’t have a f**king clue what to do if they won. And still you voted for them.

This is YOUR mess and the mess of everyone who ignored the grown ups two years ago. Don’t come complaining about it now.

[SydneyRover]

Great stuff. It's only taken us 2 f**king years to actually work out what our own position is. Now to get the EU to actually agree to it without the Tory government changing their minds again.

Not even that unless one is a conservative voter. All this time for the Cons to agree to disagree & put lipstick on the pig.

Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning

The conservatives are not anywhere near settled on this, its window dressing and internal factions will be involved in heavy hand to hand fighting right up to the point they drive us off a cliff.

This is way before the EU the ones with a royal flush.

[hoolahoop]

Well said that man - now they were things that needed  to be said .

We knew they had left any semblance of common- sense behind when that bloody bus came round with it's accompanying £350 million NHS lie printed in big letters on the side.

From thereonin we were served up one big Brexit lie after another . Would any sector lose out ? - of course not Project Leave " lies " would ensure that the great UK would cover every loss , set up new agencies with new opportunities blah blah blah. Then there were the secret Nissan deals alongside the secret trans-atlantic trade deals with an increasingly protectionist USA . Not forgetting the cynical usage or attempted usage of Henry V111 powers to circumvent the sovereign Parliament altogether ! The attacks on our judiciary at High and even Supreme Court levels are not to be forgotten . The " Enemies of the People "

So it went on day after day , sector after sector whenever a loss was found it was immediately turned into a dividend of some sort or other. These are not to be trusted .......

Great stuff. It's only taken us 2 f**king years to actually work out what our own position is. Now to get the EU to actually agree to it without the Tory government changing their minds again.

Not even that unless one is a conservative voter. All this time for the Cons to agree to disagree & put lipstick on the pig.

Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning

The conservatives are not anywhere near settled on this, its window dressing and internal factions will be involved in heavy hand to hand fighting right up to the point they drive us off a cliff.

This is way before the EU the ones with a royal flush.

[The Red Baron]

Be interesting to see how this holds together. In the past, when she’s agreed a sensible deal with one group, she’s then gone to meet with the swivel-eyed loon backbenchers and told them a totally different story.

Expect to see Rees-Mogg and Jenkin and Bone and the rest slavering at the mouth about betrayal of the Will of the People all through the weekend. And I’d expect them to be on the phone to Johnson and Gove to talk about a leadership challenge.

All pretty quiet from the usual suspects on the Tory side although plenty of sound and fury from the Kippers. They will, of course, portray this as a Tory Betrayal.

I think the reason the Cabinet Brexiteers didn't choose to fall on their swords is that they don't think May's plan will fly. Once Barnier and his people have had chance to study it in detail they will either reject it out of hand or (more likely) demand further concessions. Meanwhile, of course, the clock is ticking.

[idler]

The problem is that people voting for Brexit expected a grown up responsible negotiation about leaving not this circus.
The result was immediately hijacked by idiots and hardliners putting words in people's mouths.

You’re shitting me, right?

You expected a grown up negotiation?

When the people who brought you Brexit had said repeatedly during the campaign:

1) There would be a £350m/week Brexit Bonus.
2) Turkey was about to join the EU and we’d be liable for 80m Turks landing on British shores if we didn’t leave.
3) There’d be no problem sorting out the Irish border problem.
4) The EU wouldn’t bargain hard against us because...well, because.
5) That the UK electorate was tired of listening to experts, and that experts who supported Remain were like 1930s German experts who supported Hitler.

You HEARD them say these things repeatedly. You KNOW that they were bullshit and lies. You knew THEN that they were bullshit and lies.

Why did you expect that the people who had bullshitted and lied to you would suddenly start negotiating like grown-ups?

YOU voted us into this f**k up. You were being told at the time that the Brexit cheerleaders wouldn’t have a f**king clue what to do if they won. And still you voted for them.

This is YOUR mess and the mess of everyone who ignored the grown ups two years ago. Don’t come complaining about it now.

I'm not complaining Billy but did expect some semblance of responsible diplomacy by the country's representatives. Cameron and Osborne were hardly the best face for remain.
I was on the fence to an extent but resented being dragged ever nearer to a federal EU as seemed to be the way. I had a postal vote and when I cast my vote remain seemed very likely. At least I did vote unlike a lot of younger voters that then complained about the result.
I didn't vote conservative but had to watch Thatcher decimate our industry. I didn't vote for Blair and the invasion of Iraq or their open door policy.
If history proves me wrong so be it but reflecting on it won't change anything. We are where we are and I expect the people getting paid good wages and pensions to earn their money and get us the best deal possible.

[hoolahoop]

The problem is that people voting for Brexit expected a grown up responsible negotiation about leaving not this circus.
The result was immediately hijacked by idiots and hardliners putting words in people's mouths.

You’re shitting me, right?

You expected a grown up negotiation?

When the people who brought you Brexit had said repeatedly during the campaign:

1) There would be a £350m/week Brexit Bonus.
2) Turkey was about to join the EU and we’d be liable for 80m Turks landing on British shores if we didn’t leave.
3) There’d be no problem sorting out the Irish border problem.
4) The EU wouldn’t bargain hard against us because...well, because.
5) That the UK electorate was tired of listening to experts, and that experts who supported Remain were like 1930s German experts who supported Hitler.

You HEARD them say these things repeatedly. You KNOW that they were bullshit and lies. You knew THEN that they were bullshit and lies.

Why did you expect that the people who had bullshitted and lied to you would suddenly start negotiating like grown-ups?

YOU voted us into this f**k up. You were being told at the time that the Brexit cheerleaders wouldn’t have a f**king clue what to do if they won. And still you voted for them.

This is YOUR mess and the mess of everyone who ignored the grown ups two years ago. Don’t come complaining about it now.

I'm not complaining Billy but did expect some semblance of responsible diplomacy by the country's representatives. Cameron and Osborne were hardly the best face for remain.
I was on the fence to an extent but resented being dragged ever nearer to a federal EU as seemed to be the way. I had a postal vote and when I cast my vote remain seemed very likely. At least I did vote unlike a lot of younger voters that then complained about the result.
I didn't vote conservative but had to watch Thatcher decimate our industry. I didn't vote for Blair and the invasion of Iraq or their open door policy.
If history proves me wrong so be it but reflecting on it won't change anything. We are where we are and I expect the people getting paid good wages and pensions to earn their money and get us the best deal possible.

What has most of that " decimating " stuff and for that matter your antipathy to the Blair Iraq war got to do with the EU ?

Thatcher's policies of destroying the Northern Power house we still had in the 70/80s were gradually being reversed with the use of EU Re- Development funding for poorer regions . I fail to understand your logic ?

www.thestar.co.uk/news/how-1billion-of-eu-money-has-benefited-south-yorkshire-1-7383999

Of course there is a little bit of racism in the report which I apologise for in advance as racism or at least immigration fears were nothing to do with the reasons to Leave ( or so we keep hearing ).

* The biggest amount of structural funding goes towards ‘less developed’ regions
which have a per capita GDP of less than 75 per cent of the EU average. This
status applies to two UK regions: Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly, and West
Wales and the Valleys.
• ‘Transition regions’ have a per capita GDP between 75 and 90 percent of the EU
average. This status applies to eleven UK regions: Cumbria, Devon, East Yorkshire
and Northern Lincolnshire, Highlands and Islands, Lancashire, Lincolnshire,
Merseyside, Northern Ireland, Shropshire and Staffordshire, South Yorkshire,
Tees Valley and Durham. *

We used to be in the former group thankfully over time - investment from the EU helped move us out of the former group into the latter group. I really think that some people have no idea of the political will ensuring poorer regions of the EU are helped from central funds despite the paucity of funding they might receive from their own central governments .

The UK is a perfect example demonstrating just how much the disparity can be be for investment in different regions e.g. London & SE  v. Yorkshire & the Humber.  )

Did you vote to Leave the EU because of your opposition to such initiatives Or because you wanted to keep this mythical lost sovereignty that allowed you to vote in the 1st place.

[idler]

Steve, I mentioned in passing that every time there is a vote or election some people vote with the best of intentions but then not exactly what they voted for.
How many that voted fot Thatcher lost their jobs because of her policies?
I'm out into the sun now pre-match so won't be able to reply until later or tomorrow.
Fot what it's worth I expected a remain vote but a large enough leave vote to make the EU change their stance on some of their policies. That outcome would have probably pleased everyone because not all leavers were anti everything about the EU.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Idler.

If you thought we were going to get sensible, grown up negotiation then I’m afraid you really never understood what the Referendum was about.

It wasn’t about what is best for the country. It never was and it never could be. Because there is no deal we can possibly get that will not leave us poorer than we would be staying in.

The Referendum was about sorting out a power struggle on the Right Wing of British politics. Period. Nothing else.

What you did by voting Leave, was to empower one side of that argument. But it is a side that is full of egomaniacs who don’t actually care to much about the detail (Farage, Johnson, Gove), second rate failures (Davis, Fox) and a bunch of swivel-eyed loon back benchers who just wish we could turn back the clock to the days before we let the coons in.

We’ve not had grown ups negotiating because a) there aren’t any on the Leave side and b) the is no stance that we could take into the negotiations that is acceptable to the EU and the swivel eyed loons.

That was obvious before the Referendum. Who on earth did you think was going to do the grown up negotiating? And what on Earth did you think they were going to negotiate about?

Maybe, just maybe, after 2 years, May might have faced down the loons. Or maybe they will bring her down this week. Either way, we have lost two years of credibility. I’m not sure how much British people realise that we’ve become a laughing stock in Europe. We voted without knowing what we were voting for. We triggered Art. 50 without knowing what deal we wanted. And now we are finally stumbling into a compromise that will make us much poorer and weaker than we are inside the EU. And we get WHAT, precisely, to compensate?

[BillyStubbsTears]

This from Ian Dunt, sums it up much more pithily.

https://mobile.twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1015220850302377984/photo/1

Those people are the majority of the Tory Party. We’ve all been held to ransom by their fantasies because May couldn’t move against them for fear of being ousted. Until it has got so late and so serious that she’s finally (apparently, we’ll see) snapped and said “You haven’t got a plan that won’t destroy our economy. So we’re going for a shitty, messy compromise that will please no one because we’ve no alternative. Let’s just hope that your Little Englander posturing hasn’t f**ked off the EU so much that they just tell us to b*llocks.”

[idler]

I never posture BST.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I wasn’t meaning you Idler. Read it again.

[idler]

I wasn’t meaning you Idler. Read it again.

Sorry BST.  I have read it again.

[BillyStubbsTears]

No probs. I seem to be getting a lot of folk misreading what I’ve said today.

[Padge_DRFC]

The problem is that people voting for Brexit expected a grown up responsible negotiation about leaving not this circus.
The result was immediately hijacked by idiots and hardliners putting words in people's mouths.

You’re shitting me, right?

You expected a grown up negotiation?

When the people who brought you Brexit had said repeatedly during the campaign:

1) There would be a £350m/week Brexit Bonus.
2) Turkey was about to join the EU and we’d be liable for 80m Turks landing on British shores if we didn’t leave.
3) There’d be no problem sorting out the Irish border problem.
4) The EU wouldn’t bargain hard against us because...well, because.
5) That the UK electorate was tired of listening to experts, and that experts who supported Remain were like 1930s German experts who supported Hitler.

You HEARD them say these things repeatedly. You KNOW that they were bullshit and lies. You knew THEN that they were bullshit and lies.

Why did you expect that the people who had bullshitted and lied to you would suddenly start negotiating like grown-ups?

YOU voted us into this f**k up. You were being told at the time that the Brexit cheerleaders wouldn’t have a f**king clue what to do if they won. And still you voted for them.

This is YOUR mess and the mess of everyone who ignored the grown ups two years ago. Don’t come complaining about it now.

Do leave voters make you this angry in real life or just at your keyboard?

[auckleyflyer]

I live in one of the 2 lowest gdp areas in the uk(Cornwall and isle of Scilly) guess what? Its leave central here, again in spite of the funding going on via the eu!?
Its this I cant grasp as in Yorkshire, Teesside ect!? What do they want because it certainly wasn't to decimate their own back yards ??!
Answers on a postcard in 20yrs time when the dust has settled

[SydneyRover]

I live in one of the 2 lowest gdp areas in the uk(Cornwall and isle of Scilly) guess what? Its leave central here, again in spite of the funding going on via the eu!?
Its this I cant grasp as in Yorkshire, Teesside ect!? What do they want because it certainly wasn't to decimate their own back yards ??!
Answers on a postcard in 20yrs time when the dust has settled

I think its similar to Stockholm syndrome or a hunger striker, when they get to a certain point they dont have the strength or resources to make rational decisions any more.

[SydneyRover]

Revealed: Arron Banks met Russian ambassador 11 times.

He must have been helping the Ruskies with the World Cup?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/08/arron-banks-met-russian-ambassador-11-times-lucrative-deals

[BillyStubbsTears]

Aye.

First off he insisted he’d only met the Ambassador once.

Then he admitted he’d had two or three booze lunches with him.

Then last week he said maybe it was four times.

Now apparently it’s 11 Times.

Strange thing to lie about. Repeatedly. Why would you lie about it unless you really wanted to cover up the meetings.

And why on Earth would a car insurance salesman who was heading the Leave.EU campaign be of such interest to the representative of the Russian state in the UK?

I’m sure it’s all harmless though. Old Arron looks like a trustworthy sort. He hasn’t been caught lying for nearly 30 minutes now.