Brexit Negotiations

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

It’s not about the Guardian being able to predict the future. It’s about them and other respectable newspapers reporting facts, reporting the predictions of those whose job it is to predict future outcomes, reporting when people have lied or committed criminal offences and then leaving it up to readers to absorb that information and argue the toss.

That’s what most of this thread is about. It’s reflecting on those issues. Arguing what they mean. Coming to conclusions.

You’re perfectly able to join in that. Or you could sit on the edge and moan about non-existent cliques. Your call.

[Bentley Bullet]

I'll stick to what I know if you don't mind. I'll probably pop back every now and then to keep a check on the 'we' and 'us' brigade. If I can get it down to just one member my mission will be complete.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Pretty much what I expected B.B. 

[hoolahoop]

......And so will the 'we' men! Even if they don't agree with a fellow 'we' man they will defend him simply by not getting involved, especially if is against one of the venomous posters like me when he has asked an awkward question.

Never, ever has one of the 'we' men took my side against another 'we' man!

You snake in the grass - I thought we had cleared up that venom thing .
Now you wear it like a badge of honour- it's not a promotion you know !
Yours a...... " WE "

[SydneyRover]

Maybe its time to consider a divided Britain and separtate those that want to stay in Europe from those that dont, have a second vote and split the wealth (what there is left) per capita. Those that dont want to be part of Europe can live in the bits furthest away as they probably dont need access as much. Those that vote out and own businesses can move them into the new shitzen part of Britain where they can set up borders and custom controls and those in the EU bit can charge them for visas to enter or pass thru. I think this is an option worth considering as despite all the evidence (not rumours or fake news but evidence) that Britains people will be/are much worse because of it some of the hardened Brexiters seem determined to break from the EU, sort of like lemmings really and why should others have to suffer because of this.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-leave-no-deal-what-happens-eu-talks-david-davis-a8460416.html

[MachoMadness]

So it seems the Brexit department isn't in charge of Brexit anymore. Outstanding stuff. The Thick Of It has nothing on this. https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-statement/Commons/2018-07-24/HCWS924

[Glyn_Wigley]

So it seems the Brexit department isn't in charge of Brexit anymore. Outstanding stuff. The Thick Of It has nothing on this. https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-statement/Commons/2018-07-24/HCWS924

It doesn't really matter how they shuffle round the responsibilities of the underlings when it's the people at the top who are an incompetent shambles.

[bpoolrover]

Maybe its time to consider a divided Britain and separtate those that want to stay in Europe from those that dont, have a second vote and split the wealth (what there is left) per capita. Those that dont want to be part of Europe can live in the bits furthest away as they probably dont need access as much. Those that vote out and own businesses can move them into the new shitzen part of Britain where they can set up borders and custom controls and those in the EU bit can charge them for visas to enter or pass thru. I think this is an option worth considering as despite all the evidence (not rumours or fake news but evidence) that Britains people will be/are much worse because of it some of the hardened Brexiters seem determined to break from the EU, sort of like lemmings really and why should others have to suffer because of this.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-leave-no-deal-what-happens-eu-talks-david-davis-a8460416.html

maybe not such a bad idea, remember the ones who wanted to leave will require a bigger portion of the country thou as there was more of them, the remainers could move London way and leave the rest of us in the north

[Glyn_Wigley]

Maybe its time to consider a divided Britain and separtate those that want to stay in Europe from those that dont, have a second vote and split the wealth (what there is left) per capita. Those that dont want to be part of Europe can live in the bits furthest away as they probably dont need access as much. Those that vote out and own businesses can move them into the new shitzen part of Britain where they can set up borders and custom controls and those in the EU bit can charge them for visas to enter or pass thru. I think this is an option worth considering as despite all the evidence (not rumours or fake news but evidence) that Britains people will be/are much worse because of it some of the hardened Brexiters seem determined to break from the EU, sort of like lemmings really and why should others have to suffer because of this.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-leave-no-deal-what-happens-eu-talks-david-davis-a8460416.html

maybe not such a bad idea, remember the ones who wanted to leave will require a bigger portion of the country thou as there was more of them

They get a bigger slice of the debt too, of course.

They can have the Royal Family too!

[MachoMadness]

I just especially like the idea of Dominic Raab getting promoted to lead an obsolete department where he'll presumably be in charge of flicking rubber bands into a bin from across the room and playing games on his phone.

[RedJ]

So my job but a lot better paid. Lucky bas**rd.

[bpoolrover]

Maybe its time to consider a divided Britain and separtate those that want to stay in Europe from those that dont, have a second vote and split the wealth (what there is left) per capita. Those that dont want to be part of Europe can live in the bits furthest away as they probably dont need access as much. Those that vote out and own businesses can move them into the new shitzen part of Britain where they can set up borders and custom controls and those in the EU bit can charge them for visas to enter or pass thru. I think this is an option worth considering as despite all the evidence (not rumours or fake news but evidence) that Britains people will be/are much worse because of it some of the hardened Brexiters seem determined to break from the EU, sort of like lemmings really and why should others have to suffer because of this.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-leave-no-deal-what-happens-eu-talks-david-davis-a8460416.html

maybe not such a bad idea, remember the ones who wanted to leave will require a bigger portion of the country thou as there was more of them

They get a bigger slice of the debt too, of course.

They can have the Royal Family too!yes we can have the royal family up north no problem with that

[Glyn_Wigley]

Maybe its time to consider a divided Britain and separtate those that want to stay in Europe from those that dont, have a second vote and split the wealth (what there is left) per capita. Those that dont want to be part of Europe can live in the bits furthest away as they probably dont need access as much. Those that vote out and own businesses can move them into the new shitzen part of Britain where they can set up borders and custom controls and those in the EU bit can charge them for visas to enter or pass thru. I think this is an option worth considering as despite all the evidence (not rumours or fake news but evidence) that Britains people will be/are much worse because of it some of the hardened Brexiters seem determined to break from the EU, sort of like lemmings really and why should others have to suffer because of this.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-leave-no-deal-what-happens-eu-talks-david-davis-a8460416.html

maybe not such a bad idea, remember the ones who wanted to leave will require a bigger portion of the country thou as there was more of them

They get a bigger slice of the debt too, of course.

They can have the Royal Family too!yes we can have the royal family up north no problem with that

Oh good, if you're taking them up north we get all the Crown Properties that bring in the tourists!

[bpoolrover]

Why don't you just go live on your own on a remote island you will probably be lots happier there

[Glyn_Wigley]

Why don't you just go live on your own on a remote island you will probably be lots happier there

Nah, I'd rather move to the more prosperous still-in-the-EU partition. With all the Crown Properties and tourism and you can can have the Royal Family and the true cost of their upkeep. It's what you say you want only a few posts ago!

[Bentley Bullet]

Maybe its time to consider a divided Britain and separtate those that want to stay in Europe from those that dont, have a second vote and split the wealth (what there is left) per capita. Those that dont want to be part of Europe can live in the bits furthest away as they probably dont need access as much. Those that vote out and own businesses can move them into the new shitzen part of Britain where they can set up borders and custom controls and those in the EU bit can charge them for visas to enter or pass thru. I think this is an option worth considering as despite all the evidence (not rumours or fake news but evidence) that Britains people will be/are much worse because of it some of the hardened Brexiters seem determined to break from the EU, sort of like lemmings really and why should others have to suffer because of this.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-leave-no-deal-what-happens-eu-talks-david-davis-a8460416.html

maybe not such a bad idea, remember the ones who wanted to leave will require a bigger portion of the country thou as there was more of them

They get a bigger slice of the debt too, of course.

They can have the Royal Family too!yes we can have the royal family up north no problem with that

Oh good, if you're taking them up north we get all the Crown Properties that bring in the tourists!

Wewewewe 

[Glyn_Wigley]

Good to see BB being as erudite as usual.

[bpoolrover]

Yes I'm quite happy with the royal family if it costs money so be it

[wilts rover]

Yes I'm quite happy with the royal family if it costs money so be it

Errr, you do know they are European migrants who have come over here, taken our jobs, live rent free in council houses which are done up at public expense and have a special deal on paying tax don't you?

[bpoolrover]

and your point is?

[Bentley Bullet]

f**k this, I'm going in the leave voters section!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well, well, well.

Corbyn's now going against the grain of pretty much every serious economist here. I wonder what he bases his ideas on.

 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/url-jeremy-corbyn-brexit-economic-labour-party-cheap-labour-migrants-eu-a8460696.html?amp

For clarification, he’s absolutely correct in saying that the devaluation of the Pound should be helping exports. In fact it has done. Our exports flatlined from 2011 to 2016 but are up about 12% since the Referendum.

That’s not the point. The point is the mood music. He’s clearly aligning himself on the “Brexit is an economic opportunity” side of the argument. Which is not supported by any sensible analysis. The increase in exports doesn’t come close to offsetting the rest of the damage that Brexit is already doing and will continue to do way off into the future.

But then he’s wanted us out of the EU for his entire political life. So that’s no surprise. But is does explain a lot of his approach both before and after the vote.

[wilts rover]

Is he, doesn't appear to be in this bit:

Answering questions, Corbyn declined to say whether Brexit would make such policies easier to implement, given EU regulations. But he did say that for many the referendum vote had been “a cry from people saying they felt left behind in many of their communities”.

He added: “Are we promoting economic nationalism? No, what we’re promoting is an investment in manufacturing in this country.”

Or this bit:

Corbyn called for urgent action to keep the UK in some form of customs union. “It’s not often that the Labour party and the Institute of Directors, the CBI and the TUC agree – we need to negotiate a new customs union,” he said.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/24/public-contracts-should-go-to-uk-firms-says-jeremy-corbyn

Its strange that you dont support the call to revive British manufacturing, end outsourcing and stimulate growth in the regions outside London. But then again you have always been anti-Corbyn.

According to Paul Mason the ideas are based on this:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/second-trench-forging-new-frontline-war-neoliberalism/

whilst I believe the background is explained here:
https://newleftreview.org/II/111/robin-blackburn-the-corbyn-project

This economist appears to like them (then again he does work for the Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/24/corbyn-build-it-in-britain-public-contracts-manufacturing

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts

Aaaand once again you veer wildly off course and flatter yourself that you know what I think.

Mason’s and Blackburn’s pieces (neither of them economists) are wonderfully stirring pieces of critique. But I’m struggling to see what on Earth they have to do with my comments on Corbyn’s attitude towards the EU. Equally, Larry Elliott’s piece (by a journalist, not an economist).

For the record, I’m very supportive of Corbyn’s domestic economic policies. I’ve said this many times but I’m guessing you haven’t seen that. So you’re non-sequitur of “You criticised Corbyn! You must be against trying to re-structure our economy to help the areas and the people who have been left behind!” is rather unfortunate.

Nothing you posted in any way addressed my fundamental point. Corbyn has spent a lifetime calling for us to leave the EU. He is ideologically opposed to what the Left has always seen as a Rich Man’s Club. There’s nothing controversial in my saying that. It’s a matter of established fact. Go and have a search for ANYTHING he said in the Referendum campaign about the economic benefits of the EU. You’ll have a long time looking.

Now. I thought the central appeal of Corbyn was that he was ringing a new, honest approach to politics. In which case it is odd that so many of his strongest supporters go all as hominem and whatabout-ish whenever any has the gall to criticise him.

[Ldr]

Shared without comment.

http://www.tuaeu.co.uk/how-the-eu-starves-africa/

[bpoolrover]

How dare you post such a thing, wonder how long before the 3 amigos pop up to shoot you down

[Ldr]

How dare you post such a thing, wonder how long before the 3 amigos pop up to shoot you down

Only one of them has anything to say that I respect

[BillyStubbsTears]

Silly comment Bpool.

There’s a perfectly respectable left-wing argument that says that the EU is a collection of rich countries that look after themselves. Which, to some extent, they do. And yes, Africa often does get a shit deal.

Just two things to add to that discuss from me.

1) Anyone who thinks that Africa would get a better deal from Fox, Raab and May is living on another planet.

2) The Left-wing argument always ignores what the EU has done in Europe over the past 50 years, building up countries that were previously scarcely developed themselves (Ireland, Spain,Portugal, Greece) into solid modern economies. And how it’s currentky in a 50 year programme to do the same to the countries of Eastern Europe (which were impoverished by 50 years of Communist mis-rule). The EU has also helped to cement democratic norms in many countries which were previously ruled by Communist or Fascist dictatorships. I’m astonished how rarely that is mentioned. And how important it is. Democracy is not a given. You have to work damned hard to protect it. The EU has done an amazing job on that front.

[Copps is Magic]

The left-wing case for leaving the European Union (championed by Tony Benn) wasn't even articulated leading up to the referendum. It wasn't heard - it was a piss in the ocean. To draw upon it now would be a bit perverse.

[Akinfenwa]

The left-wing case for leaving the European Union (championed by Tony Benn) wasn't even articulated leading up to the referendum. It wasn't heard - it was a piss in the ocean. To draw upon it now would be a bit perverse.

The left-wing case was articulated but you're correct, it didn't get close to the mainstream and the campaign for it was non-existent.

Despite this millions of Labour voters still voted to leave, suggesting that these issues were considered by many.