Brexit Negotiations

[BillyStubbsTears]

Boomstick.

The whole issue really is very, very simple. Hold your nose for a moment and go through these points 1 by 1 and tell me which ones you think are unreasonable.

This is the EU's stance on the Irish border issue. It's been their stance for more than 2 years. Tell me which bits you think are unfair.

The EU says this to us:

1) You want a trade deal with us that gives you benefits after you leave. Great. Let's talk. But be aware that we have a big red line. We're not going to agree to a deal that gives YOU benefits but hurts one of US. Fair?

2) If a deal results in a worse border situation between RoI and NI, that will hurt RoI. That's not fair. They didn't vote for Brexit. You did. So we'll not bend over to help you if you don't make sure that RoI doesn't get hurt. Fair?

3) There's a dead easy way to stop the border being an issue. You can stay inside the CU and SM. Fair?

4) Opinion poll after opinion poll tells us that solution is supported by a big majority in the UK. We KNOW it's not supported by the Tory party, but hey, that's your party's problem. Fair?

5) If you're not prepared to accept that solution then it is your responsibility to tell us what alternative ideas you have. Fair?

6) We've had two years now and you've come up with nothing better than shouting "Technology!" "Switzerland!" We need a bit more than that. Fair?

7) Tell you what. We know you're struggling here so here's a deal. Why don't we just let you stay in the CU and park the border question until you sort out what you want to do? Fair?

Go on BS. Tell me what bit of that gets your goat.

EDIT:
I forgot the final point.

8) What's that you say Mrs May? Your swivel-eyed rabid right wing won't accept 7? Oh dear! This is a mess then isn't it?

And what's that Mrs May? Because of this message, YOU want US to compromise further. I'm not sure you've quite got the hang of this negotiation thing Mrs May! YOU want US to take a big hit to get YOU out of a political mess of your own making? I think you know the answer to that one Mrs May.

So. Looks like you've only got two choices then. Go for the No Deal Brexit that you've been talking about for the past 2 years and lose any chance of us giving you any sort of deal in future. Or face down the Johnsons and Rees-Moggs and Redwoods and Foxes that got you into this f**king mess and do what is right for your country.

Didn't say anything got my goat old lad. Just said what I think will happen.

My mistake.

So when you said this...

"The EU ARE using it as a bargaining chip. Understandably so.
Afterall, they need to be seen to be playing hardball for 3 reasons.
1. They need to be perceived as a stronger than an individual country. (Also deterring any other country wanting out)
2. It's us that chose to leave, so there making us sweat."

...you didn't say it?

[hoolahoop]

https://youtu.be/JvDAW5SjdaE

If you have a spare hour this is a very interesting viewpoint on N.Ireland and it's significance in the current talks. Well worth watching.

[Boomstick]

Boomstick.

The whole issue really is very, very simple. Hold your nose for a moment and go through these points 1 by 1 and tell me which ones you think are unreasonable.

This is the EU's stance on the Irish border issue. It's been their stance for more than 2 years. Tell me which bits you think are unfair.

The EU says this to us:

1) You want a trade deal with us that gives you benefits after you leave. Great. Let's talk. But be aware that we have a big red line. We're not going to agree to a deal that gives YOU benefits but hurts one of US. Fair?

2) If a deal results in a worse border situation between RoI and NI, that will hurt RoI. That's not fair. They didn't vote for Brexit. You did. So we'll not bend over to help you if you don't make sure that RoI doesn't get hurt. Fair?

3) There's a dead easy way to stop the border being an issue. You can stay inside the CU and SM. Fair?

4) Opinion poll after opinion poll tells us that solution is supported by a big majority in the UK. We KNOW it's not supported by the Tory party, but hey, that's your party's problem. Fair?

5) If you're not prepared to accept that solution then it is your responsibility to tell us what alternative ideas you have. Fair?

6) We've had two years now and you've come up with nothing better than shouting "Technology!" "Switzerland!" We need a bit more than that. Fair?

7) Tell you what. We know you're struggling here so here's a deal. Why don't we just let you stay in the CU and park the border question until you sort out what you want to do? Fair?

Go on BS. Tell me what bit of that gets your goat.

EDIT:
I forgot the final point.

8) What's that you say Mrs May? Your swivel-eyed rabid right wing won't accept 7? Oh dear! This is a mess then isn't it?

And what's that Mrs May? Because of this message, YOU want US to compromise further. I'm not sure you've quite got the hang of this negotiation thing Mrs May! YOU want US to take a big hit to get YOU out of a political mess of your own making? I think you know the answer to that one Mrs May.

So. Looks like you've only got two choices then. Go for the No Deal Brexit that you've been talking about for the past 2 years and lose any chance of us giving you any sort of deal in future. Or face down the Johnsons and Rees-Moggs and Redwoods and Foxes that got you into this f**king mess and do what is right for your country.

Didn't say anything got my goat old lad. Just said what I think will happen.

My mistake.

So when you said this...

"The EU ARE using it as a bargaining chip. Understandably so.
Afterall, they need to be seen to be playing hardball for 3 reasons.
1. They need to be perceived as a stronger than an individual country. (Also deterring any other country wanting out)
2. It's us that chose to leave, so there making us sweat."

...you didn't say it?

Aye, it's exactly what I said.
But I'm not pissed off about it. We're not all as cantankerous as you, you know ....

[Not Now Kato]

https://youtu.be/JvDAW5SjdaE

If you have a spare hour this is a very interesting viewpoint on N.Ireland and it's significance in the current talks. Well worth watching.

Well worth watching indeed, from both the Remain and Leave sides.  Thanks for posting Hoola. 

[BillyStubbsTears]

BS

Aye, it's a failing of mine. I do tend to get cantankerous when people talk b*llocks about this topic. Given that it's going to do irreparable damage to the country my kids are growing up in. I'm funny like that.

[Donnywolf]

I have a serious question. After the Referendum (where there was a majority of 3.78% to Leave) the Leavers constantly told the Remain vote to "get over it - its Democracy"

However how long does that "Democracy" last ? I ask because in 1975 when we affirmed our wish to join the Common Market / EEC / EU whatever it was named this is what happened :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_European_Communities_membership_referendum,_1975

A MASSIVE and I repeat (like Fred Elliott) MASSIVE majority maybe 34 .46% to "join/stay in". So how long does Democracy last ? That MASSIVE majority has NEVER been respected by the Tory Leaver movement so I ask why should any Remainers be "happy" to lose by 3% and just get over it

I have deliberately not gone into the Lies etc on both sides and just wonder what the people think - how long does a vote last for ?

In Scotland for example the once in a lifetime vote on Independence was "won" by the people NOT wanting to leave the Union. Has it or will it be "once in a lifetime" ? Of course not because the SNP are mentioning "it" in every speech so how is that Democratic. Answer IT ISN'T until the Vote where they win - then the other side will be told to "get over it - its Democracy"

[RedJ]

In a democracy, people can also change their minds. David Davis basically said something along the same lines a few years ago.

[BillyStubbsTears]

David Davies said that a democracy in which people aren't able to re-visit and change previous decisions is not a democracy.

But what's the f**king point of raising that, since no other inconvenient facts seem to penetrate the craniums of the Brexit zealots.

Personally, as a patriot, I'm f**king fuming that Russian money was poured into the Leave campaign through a couple of spivs. But the Leavers, many of whom seem to think they are greater patriots than the Remainers don't seem to give a shite about that.

Odd, that, isn't it?

[RedJ]

No wonder I couldn't find the quote, I was searching for the wrong Kitson.

[Herbert Anchovy]

David Davies said that a democracy in which people aren't able to re-visit and change previous decisions is not a democracy.

But what's the f**king point of raising that, since no other inconvenient facts seem to penetrate the craniums of the Brexit zealots.

Personally, as a patriot, I'm f**king fuming that Russian money was poured into the Leave campaign through a couple of spivs. But the Leavers, many of whom seem to think they are greater patriots than the Remainers don't seem to give a shite about that.

Odd, that, isn't it?

So surely you can imagine how annoying it is for those who voted to to leave the EU to hear that their vote meant nothing and that we should have further referendums until the ‘right’ vote is delivere?

[RedJ]

David Davies said that a democracy in which people aren't able to re-visit and change previous decisions is not a democracy.

But what's the f**king point of raising that, since no other inconvenient facts seem to penetrate the craniums of the Brexit zealots.

Personally, as a patriot, I'm f**king fuming that Russian money was poured into the Leave campaign through a couple of spivs. But the Leavers, many of whom seem to think they are greater patriots than the Remainers don't seem to give a shite about that.

Odd, that, isn't it?

So surely you can imagine how annoying it is for those who voted to to leave the EU to hear that their vote meant nothing and that we should have further referendums until the ‘right’ vote is delivere?

Farage said he would agitate for another vote if he lost too.

[Herbert Anchovy]

David Davies said that a democracy in which people aren't able to re-visit and change previous decisions is not a democracy.

But what's the f**king point of raising that, since no other inconvenient facts seem to penetrate the craniums of the Brexit zealots.

Personally, as a patriot, I'm f**king fuming that Russian money was poured into the Leave campaign through a couple of spivs. But the Leavers, many of whom seem to think they are greater patriots than the Remainers don't seem to give a shite about that.

Odd, that, isn't it?

So surely you can imagine how annoying it is for those who voted to to leave the EU to hear that their vote meant nothing and that we should have further referendums until the ‘right’ vote is delivere?

Farage said he would agitate for another vote if he lost too.

Doesn’t really answer the point I’ve raised though does it?

[RedJ]

David Davies said that a democracy in which people aren't able to re-visit and change previous decisions is not a democracy.

But what's the f**king point of raising that, since no other inconvenient facts seem to penetrate the craniums of the Brexit zealots.

Personally, as a patriot, I'm f**king fuming that Russian money was poured into the Leave campaign through a couple of spivs. But the Leavers, many of whom seem to think they are greater patriots than the Remainers don't seem to give a shite about that.

Odd, that, isn't it?

So surely you can imagine how annoying it is for those who voted to to leave the EU to hear that their vote meant nothing and that we should have further referendums until the ‘right’ vote is delivere?

Farage said he would agitate for another vote if he lost too.

Doesn’t really answer the point I’ve raised though does it?

But you're making out it's only one side that are supposedly wanting to get the 'right' result.

And completely ignoring the fact that illegally harvested data was used to swing the vote. And that a foreign power has subverted our democracy. Does that not bother you at all?

[Herbert Anchovy]

David Davies said that a democracy in which people aren't able to re-visit and change previous decisions is not a democracy.

But what's the f**king point of raising that, since no other inconvenient facts seem to penetrate the craniums of the Brexit zealots.

Personally, as a patriot, I'm f**king fuming that Russian money was poured into the Leave campaign through a couple of spivs. But the Leavers, many of whom seem to think they are greater patriots than the Remainers don't seem to give a shite about that.

Odd, that, isn't it?

So surely you can imagine how annoying it is for those who voted to to leave the EU to hear that their vote meant nothing and that we should have further referendums until the ‘right’ vote is delivere?

Farage said he would agitate for another vote if he lost too.

Doesn’t really answer the point I’ve raised though does it?

But you're making out it's only one side that are supposedly wanting to get the 'right' result.

And completely ignoring the fact that illegally harvested data was used to swing the vote. And that a foreign power has subverted our democracy. Does that not bother you at all?

Eh? What are you talking about? Il ask it again. Do you appreciate how annoying it is for those who voted to leave that their opinion is deemed to be invalid? It’s not a hard question. 

[RedJ]

David Davies said that a democracy in which people aren't able to re-visit and change previous decisions is not a democracy.

But what's the f**king point of raising that, since no other inconvenient facts seem to penetrate the craniums of the Brexit zealots.

Personally, as a patriot, I'm f**king fuming that Russian money was poured into the Leave campaign through a couple of spivs. But the Leavers, many of whom seem to think they are greater patriots than the Remainers don't seem to give a shite about that.

Odd, that, isn't it?

So surely you can imagine how annoying it is for those who voted to to leave the EU to hear that their vote meant nothing and that we should have further referendums until the ‘right’ vote is delivere?

Farage said he would agitate for another vote if he lost too.

Doesn’t really answer the point I’ve raised though does it?

But you're making out it's only one side that are supposedly wanting to get the 'right' result.

And completely ignoring the fact that illegally harvested data was used to swing the vote. And that a foreign power has subverted our democracy. Does that not bother you at all?

Eh? What are you talking about? Il ask it again. Do you appreciate how annoying it is for those who voted to leave that their opinion is deemed to be invalid? It’s not a hard question. 

It might be annoying, yes. But not half as annoying as realising I've been sold a crock of shit. Or as annoying as realising an actual hostile foreign country had been interfering.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Herbert

No one is saying that anyone's vote or anyone's opinion is invalid. I don't know where you get that conclusion from.

What I am saying is that some pretty stark facts have come to light since the vote.

On the week of the vote, an opinion poll showed that FIFTY TWO percent of the electorate believed that we would be getting back £350m a week from the EU. The man who ran the Leave campaign and who made up that lie is on record, on YouTube, crowing about how that tipped the vote. We NOW know categorically that was a lie and categorically that we are going to be (in fact, already are) tens of billions of pounds worse off because of Brexit. The only debate now is precisely how much and whether it will be 10, 20 or 50 years before we make that back.

We also now know categorically that the Leave campaign was being financed by Russian money to fund a web trawling company which illegally identified gullible voters and bombarded their social media feeds with videos spouting lies about the EU (eg videos saying Turkey and Albania are about to join, with pictures of dodgy looking swarthy types and big f**king Dad's Army arrows pointing from their countries to the UK.

We also know that criminal action is being taken against the Vote Leave executive who funnelled a huge wodge of that money across, breaking electoral funding law as he did so.

We also know that the piss and wind that the Leavers told us (Ireland's not a problem, the EU will be desperate to do a deal with us, we'll be much better off outside, this will be the easiest negotiation ever) was...well, piss and wind. Every. Last. Bit. Of. It.

We also know that opinion poll after opinion poll now shows a majority of people believe we were wrong to vote Leave.

We're in a totally different world of fact to where we were in 2016. Wouldn't it be the very essence of Democracy to put this to the vote against in light of these facts? No one says YOU have to change your mind. And if the case for Brexit is still so strong, what possible complaint could you have?

[bobjimwilly]

Surely it's not that difficult to see why, when asking the electorate to vote on the single most important referendum in their lifetime, those in charge simply ask "are you sure?"

Most parents know to ask such a simple follow-up question after their kids have chosen what they want for dinner, so I think f*cking Brexit deserves the same!

[BillyStubbsTears]

The question for Referendum 2 is easy, an all.

"If you have a f**king brain in your head,  you KNOW that the only reason we had Ref1 was to sort out which of the Eton/Bullingdon chaps would come out on top. Ref1 got rid of two of those so now do you want to:
A. Carry on being played by the last one standing and in doing so, f**k up the country for your grandkids?
B. Grow up."

[hoolahoop]

https://youtu.be/JvDAW5SjdaE

If you have a spare hour this is a very interesting viewpoint on N.Ireland and it's significance in the current talks. Well worth watching.

Well worth watching indeed, from both the Remain and Leave sides.  Thanks for posting Hoola. 

Pleased you stuck with it NNK, I thought it was just yet another one of those " bollox filled " interviews but  it was anything but .

Broomstick you NEED  to watch this , it will open up the whole world of the " backstop " to you and the why's and wherefore's of the Referendum itself.

[SydneyRover]

I suppose you could make the case that having a second vote is like using VAR, it helps make a better decision when you slow things down a get a better view of the facts.

[Donnywolf]

David Davies said that a democracy in which people aren't able to re-visit and change previous decisions is not a democracy.

But what's the f**king point of raising that, since no other inconvenient facts seem to penetrate the craniums of the Brexit zealots.

Personally, as a patriot, I'm f**king fuming that Russian money was poured into the Leave campaign through a couple of spivs. But the Leavers, many of whom seem to think they are greater patriots than the Remainers don't seem to give a shite about that.

Odd, that, isn't it?

So surely you can imagine how annoying it is for those who voted to to leave the EU to hear that their vote meant nothing and that we should have further referendums until the ‘right’ vote is delivere?

Which is why is asked my Question in Reply #2735 above BECAUSE to use your own quote above why did all those 67% who voted to be "IN" in 1975 have their Vote "rubbished" in effect by the Tories and others ever since then

They Voted by a 35% Majority to Join / Stay in the EEC and yet over the years the Leavers banged on and on and on until they got a Referendum granted and got a small 3% decision to Leave
So I ask (anyone) how long does a democratic Vote "have credibility" ?
If we discount the 1975 one because it is too old - that meant all those peoples Vote meant nothing - but if we say we accept the 2 years ago result why not allow another now if it seems (and I dont know) that it may produce a different result (or who knows a confirmation that we still want to Leave)


As an irony I voted Remain in 2016 so was on the losing side - whereas in 1975 I voted against joining / staying in and ended up on the losing side ! I am not a bad loser though except when Rovers are involved

[Herbert Anchovy]

David Davies said that a democracy in which people aren't able to re-visit and change previous decisions is not a democracy.

But what's the f**king point of raising that, since no other inconvenient facts seem to penetrate the craniums of the Brexit zealots.

Personally, as a patriot, I'm f**king fuming that Russian money was poured into the Leave campaign through a couple of spivs. But the Leavers, many of whom seem to think they are greater patriots than the Remainers don't seem to give a shite about that.

Odd, that, isn't it?

So surely you can imagine how annoying it is for those who voted to to leave the EU to hear that their vote meant nothing and that we should have further referendums until the ‘right’ vote is delivere?

Farage said he would agitate for another vote if he lost too.

Doesn’t really answer the point I’ve raised though does it?

But you're making out it's only one side that are supposedly wanting to get the 'right' result.

And completely ignoring the fact that illegally harvested data was used to swing the vote. And that a foreign power has subverted our democracy. Does that not bother you at all?

Eh? What are you talking about? Il ask it again. Do you appreciate how annoying it is for those who voted to leave that their opinion is deemed to be invalid? It’s not a hard question. 

It might be annoying, yes. But not half as annoying as realising I've been sold a crock of shit. Or as annoying as realising an actual hostile foreign country had been interfering.

Fair point I guess

[Glyn_Wigley]

David Davies said that a democracy in which people aren't able to re-visit and change previous decisions is not a democracy.

But what's the f**king point of raising that, since no other inconvenient facts seem to penetrate the craniums of the Brexit zealots.

Personally, as a patriot, I'm f**king fuming that Russian money was poured into the Leave campaign through a couple of spivs. But the Leavers, many of whom seem to think they are greater patriots than the Remainers don't seem to give a shite about that.

Odd, that, isn't it?

So surely you can imagine how annoying it is for those who voted to to leave the EU to hear that their vote meant nothing and that we should have further referendums until the ‘right’ vote is delivere?

Not the 'right' vote, the 'properly informed' vote.

[The Red Baron]

As I think it's unlikely that any deal that May brings back  (including "no deal") will get through Parliament, a second referendum might be a way out of the impasse. Although a General Election is probably more likely.

[RedJ]

Wonder if selby thinks Mandeville would do a better job...

[Not Now Kato]

Wonder if selby thinks Mandeville would do a better job...

My Dog would do a better job than May, and I haven't even got a dog!

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

But a GE doesn't get us out of the crisis.

There are only three ways out.

1) No deal
2) Killing the whole process, or watering it down to the whole of the UK remaining in the CU/SM
3) A deal where NI remains in the CU/SM.

There are literally no other viable outcomes.

But...

There will never be a majority in Parliament for 1 because it's insane for all sorts of reasons.

Neither Corbyn nor any realistic Tory leader would go for 2.

3 would destroy the GFA as far as the Unionists are concerned.

So no realistic GE result would get us any closer to sorting this f**king mess out.

Unless. Just possibly. A GE led to a Labour led Govt and Corbyn was forced out by the membership who overwhelmingly want 2. If there was a Lab/LD/SNP coalition and the only thing stopping 2 was the fact that Corbyn couldn't face the ghost of Tony Bennett looking at him...THAT would be an interesting situation. 

[Glyn_Wigley]

You missed out the possibility of a GE bringing about a goverment who throws the decision back to the people again to bypass the Westminster blockage - which I think is the only way round the problem. Corbyn has moved towards that a bit by saying he'd do it if the Labour membership wanted it.

[SydneyRover]

700,000 people against brexit march in London, 6 people meet up with Cnut in a pub in Harrogate to wax about old times and ways to stop the tide coming in.

[The Red Baron]

You missed out the possibility of a GE bringing about a goverment who throws the decision back to the people again to bypass the Westminster blockage - which I think is the only way round the problem. Corbyn has moved towards that a bit by saying he'd do it if the Labour membership wanted it.

That's what I think could be the end result of a General Election. I realise the polls can be wrong but at the moment another Hung Parliament looks likely.

I could foresee a situation where Labour is the largest party but can only form a Government with a Confidence and Supply deal with the SNP and/ or the Lib Dems. Both Sturgeon and Cable have thrown their weight behind a second (third) vote, and they make that an absolute condition of propping up a minority Labour Government.

Although for that to become a reality there are two other pre-conditions. Firstly, the GE would have to happen before next March and secondly we would need agreement from the EU that we could put the Article 50 clock on hold. Neither are certain and I the second is only a real possibility if the alternative is No Deal at all.